(00:00:05) On Wall Street today the Dow Jones average of 30 Industrials about 30 minutes ago was up just over 10 points the 20 Transportation index down a fraction the 15 utility index up about a half point and the 65 stocks index was up about a point and 3/4 at 80 11 .08 our studio guests during the noon hour will be Al santoli author of the new book everything. We had author of the book everything we had who has now written new Americans and oral history and that's coming up listener questions will be invited. You'll have a chance to talk with author Al santoli in just a moment a reminder that you're listening to Minnesota Public Radio a member supported service. This Is ksjn 1330 Minneapolis-Saint Paul K NS R FM 88.9 Collegeville, st. Cloud wns dfm 100 point nine Cloquet Duluth superior And a reminder that midday on Tuesday is made possible with the financial assistance of the James are Thorpe Foundation. It's 12 o'clock. Good afternoon. Dan Olsen with you in st. Paul and we welcome L santoli author of new Americans and oral history published by Viking and on the stands now, I presume Al is that right? That's right L travelled around the country. He is a contributing editor for Parade Magazine, which many of you are familiar with a supplement magazine that comes with many Sunday newspapers around the country Al collected the stories of immigrants who had come to the United States and as we know from other accounts of people who have come from overseas many of these accounts are absolutely riveting. It shows that truth is clearly Stranger Than Fiction in many of the accounts of these people the stories they have to tell of escaping unbearable and harsh conditions in their native country coming to the United. Listen Al I can't remember who said it. But somebody said I guess that immigration is the highest form of flattery or something like that and the United States still apparently is the focus of attention of a huge number of people in the world. Yeah. I from people that I've met from all places in America really has become a nation of made up of people of all Nations for that matter recently in New York. They announced that you know in the past year that there have been people that have become either naturalized citizens or have applied for residency who come from a hundred and fifty three different countries where say 20 years ago 90% of the people were still just from a limited small number of countries in Western Europe. And I think the real question today is For Better or For Worse the newcomers as throughout our history are going to have a dynamic impact in are having a very solid impact on our communities around the country and you know I agree with you that it is a form of flattery that people from all places still see the United States as a place of opportunity and as a friend of mine from Czechoslovakia who was involved in human rights work there told me he's now living in San Francisco after being imprisoned in Czechoslovakia said that when my friends and I, you know thought about it going to a rock concert or being entertained we think about London, but when we thought about real Freedom, we thought about the United States we're talking with Al santoli and inviting your questions too and we'll give out that telephone number in just a moment. I think the Immigration and Naturalization Service reports that for 1987. There were about 600 1000 immigrants to this country. That's virtually unchanged. I think from 1986 presumably the figure for this year will be something close to that on one hand. That's a relatively modest number of people to assimilate into our culture except when you start thinking of it in terms of communities and job. Just what affects people's lives. That's right, Dan. And also the I think the greatest challenge we have is the two thousand mile wide open Mexican border where even though we do the numbers of people we take legally help to fill the shortfall in our birth rate and all and do make many solid contributions where you have anywhere between a million and 3 million people a year coming across the Mexican border undocumented it dubbed. It does put strains on a number of communities not only in the southwest but you can see in Chicago large number of undocumented people from Latin America in New York. We have not only from Mexico, but from a large number of countries something like a half million of undocumented people in Los Angeles a million and a half. I think the Twin Cities and the areas in this part of the country aren't quite as Affected thus far still I think that there have been discussions about assimilating refugees who now, there's about fifty thousand refugees in Minnesota. So what I thought the best way to approach this because it is a question that needs to be addressed seriously because again the newcomers now just to Legal newcomers make up about 25% part of our annual population growth and much as when my family came from Italy. My father came from Italy and his family had to start from scratch learning English and learning what it was like to to to be an American to survive within the community that they moved into in the same way. These people face the same challenges and I felt rather than just going by politics or statistics which just gives you a headache that the best thing is going out and spending time with families. So for about a year, I traveled to various parts of the United States everywhere from a small town in New England. They had adopted an Afghan family. Down to Florida where there is a very bitter division between Spanish-speaking people black Americans white Americans spend time with a man named Pedro River 80 who came here in 1960 with the shirt on his back and twelve dollars in his pocket work three jobs while going to night school and ran for city council when those when the streets of his Town West Miami were continually flooded the fix the streets who's now the mayor of West Miami in the Twin Cities. I wanted to spend time with the hill tribes from Laos who are the dominant Refugee group in this area who have come not only you know, 10,000 miles, but they have leaped for centuries because they came from a culture really without a formal written language until about 20 years ago. They really didn't invent the wheel until recently because they carried everything on their back and they worked primarily and very rudimentary kinds of Agriculture and to move into a large American city is You know just an unbelievable culture shock and on the other hand went down to El Paso, Texas, which is next to San Diego the most incredible entry point of people coming from Mexico and spent you know, a 24-hour cycle in one case with the border patrol and got a feel for the impossible job that they have spend time with in a family of Maha doses. Those Mexicans would say which we would use in slang as a wetbacks who said that, you know, no matter how many times that were apprehended because we have no hope in our country and we want to provide for our children that will cross the river again and also Mexican-American family where the girl is a is a high school cheerleader and the son is involved in an organization called El Paso Adelante, which is a literacy and education program where Mexican Americans who have succeeded and have gone through college in our professionals. Go back into the high schools to try to encourage kids. To finish their education to learn English so that their Community can develop and advance and in California. I met a woman who runs a small donut shop near the Los Angeles airport who is a survivor of the Holocaust in Cambodia and on and on, you know, it's just phenomenal stories of human endurance that I think are inspiring in the fact that these are people who haven't given up on life. Let's give our listeners a chance to join our conversation with author Al santoli and you can call us in the Twin Cities at 2276 thousand 2276 thousand is the Twin Cities telephone number listeners outside the Twin Cities with in Minnesota can call us toll-free and that number is 1-866-560-4440. Six five to ninety seven hundred is the toll-free number than in the Twin Cities area 2276 thousand. What's your impression of this? These immigration policies out are we highly opportunistic in our immigration policies tending to accept those people that might be of some economic usefulness to us and simply closing the doors on others whose need May. In fact be greater. Well again, I think it's out of balance because of the huge number of people coming across the Mexican border and on the other hand. There are bills now in Congress that are trying to increase the number of primarily Europeans who have education in the end needed job skills, especially as we're moving into the 21st century, and we need people that are astute in engineering. We're in the past two or three years. We've gotten two hundred professors from England that are now at places like the University of Kansas or University of Nebraska as well as Harvard and Yale who came to this country not because of political persecution, but because of the traditional, you know reasons of better opportunity, The academic creativity in this country as well as higher pay so it's really a mixed bag and there I think we're still struggling to find that balance as to what's helpful. And what is it but I think because we have now such an overabundance of people coming from the third world who are non English speakers that more than ever before. I think that there needs to be programs in the school that are maybe more sensibly developed in some of the bilingual programs that have failed because the students rely too much on their first language get frustrated by the time they're in 7th or 8th grade can't keep up with their studies and drop out on the other hand. For instance in the Twin Cities. When the Hmong first started coming here it was, you know a spell again without a lot of preparation by the federal government which then put pressure on the state government to create programs immediately, which meant you know, where people would be settled are in less-developed neighborhoods. The city in the state didn't have the kind of money to create language. Programs for adults and like in Australia and Switzerland in Canada. What I've seen is that they'll invest six months into making sure people understand the job market where there is language programs, which makes it easier for people to assimilate and also in my opinion, you know you find this is traditional my grandmother never really learned to speak English very well. But my father who came from the same small town in Italy where they didn't have running water or electricity within the course of his lifetime eventually rent wound up working in the space program for NASA along with a lot of other immigrants who came here in the same condition, which is similar to what we see with a lot of kids now winning our math and science Awards who are immigrants Tock. Let's go to the telephone and take the question from our first listener. Hello. We're listening for you. (00:11:55) Is it going to become more of an altruistic attitude? Are we going that way here? How does he figure after traveling around and getting all sides of the story? I would just like to know exactly where does he think that the United States is setting? I we are caring Nation or are we going to kind of realize that there's a lot more political pork? Ho ho (00:12:19) I think it's really a mixed bag. I think like always in our history when you can go back to the early 19th century when there were political parties formed against German immigrants where the attitude was that Germans will never assimilate they'll never learn English. They have their own schools their own newspapers and know-nothing party elected Governors 26 out of 31 States or the idea that Irish and dogs are not allowed in this establishment. The Klu Klux Klan was formed not only against blacks but against Catholics and Jews and I think right now we're at a point to where you know, for instance if you go Community that's heavily impacted like Miami with with Hispanics. I mean there is a bitter division between the white and black community in the Hispanic community and a lot of barriers as far as not only language but culture and the kind of dynamism where people are upset that the newcomers are out hustling them and it's not only what the Hispanic people what you find with the Caribbean in the West Indian people like that and that like the Haitians that they'll work hard. They'll wonder where they'll take jobs. Nobody else wants to encourage their kids to stay in school and after a short period of time you find that their High School graduation rate is like 40 percent higher than American blacks and that their standard of living is at about the same pace and I think that in this regard one of the reasons for doing this book is to try to bridge those cultural gaps and I think that there's a lot that we can remember that newcomers teach us and I say remember because our ancestors went through the same process. And it's the traditional today as it was in the past that the newcomers come here looking for that opportunity and they really work for it. Let's go back to the telephone for another listener. And it's your turn Al santoli is (00:14:07) listening. Okay. Do you see those wondering do you see any connection between American foreign policy and immigration policy? For example, you mentioned the monk another instance where American foreign policy may be helping to create people who want to immigrate to this country is in Central America and Guatemala and El Salvador where our government is supporting governments who are oppressing their people. Is there any percentage in trying to influence foreign policy so we can remove some of the cause of this influx? (00:14:35) Well, I think that that's multifaceted 22 depending on the part of the world that we're dealing with and I agree with you that foreign policy does have a play a big role in it. For instance, you know before addressing Minnesota. The biggest problem we have is with Mexico not that people are fleeing political persecution, but they're having a population boom and there are no jobs. And a government that has no real intention or competency to provide basic care, whether it be Health Services or the ability for people to work or Farm. I think that one thing that we could do because under the new immigration law and I think rightly so that those people that have come here that are undocumented should not take away jobs from Americans and if we would create programs find out where the people of come from rather than inhumanely sending people back the way we have in the past with Mexicans to instead of giving large enough amounts of money to the Mexican Government Target developmental programs in those Villages and towns and the number of Mexicans. I've talked with say that I would have stayed home if I felt I had a future but I don't have that future and the other hand with the Hmong. I mean, I've just come back again from a trip to the refugee camps in Southeast Asia and there is there is genocide going on in the mountains of Laos where people who had formerly been involved with the United States are still targets of persecution. Now what I would love to see Is you know, I think that the Hmong in their efforts in Laos 10 years ago or 15 years ago saved a number of American lives because they were fighting the North Vietnamese who are moving into South Vietnam on the Ho Chi Minh trail through Laos from attacking South Vietnam were of course, the Americans were and also the family that I talk about in the book was a man who for over a period of six years was involved in teams rescuing American pilots and my heart goes out to those people but on the other hand the way that they've been resettled in many cases has not been effective because it wasn't taken in consideration. The special needs to really get especially the older people to learn English and understand the job market better your book your book Al has an account of the family from Guatemala. I believe it is that comes across the border illegally and recitals and again a harrowing account of why they're escaping because members of their family were taken captive and were killed by people in Guatemala. And is it your view that this country is taking in unnecessarily narrow attitude towards this issue of political Asylum yeah I think that's very political also I mean for instance people say that it's very unfair that for instance anybody coming from Cuba gets automatic political Asylum where those coming from Guatemala El Salvador have maybe you know like a 10% rate if they're lucky of getting the political Asylum now what I found in Florida with these Guatemalan Indians that it depended upon the village that they came from whether or not that there was civil war going on or if there were massacres and unfortunately the way that the immigration service works is that we from what you know the Irish priest in the book who works with the Indians these particular Indians from Guatemala talks about is that you gets very difficult to get a fair hearing so what the activists wind up doing is trying to blanket cover everybody including people who aren't political refugees which then is reciprocal effect is the immigration Service as a hot you see there's fraud here and you're saying these people are refugees when they're really not But I think again as somebody who's looking as an outsider to this process, what I think would be effective is that there was a more fair way of holding hearings of determining, you know, who was a refugee who needs to go back for economic reasons and again targeting Assistance programs to help those villages to put pressure on those governments to treat their people better. I think would be much more beneficial for them and beneficial for us. We're talking with Al santoli the author of the new Americans and oral history immigrants and refugees in the United States today published by Viking looks like it's available for about $20 at bookstores and Al assures us that it is available. We have callers waiting on the line and we have a couple of lines open at our Twin Cities. Number two two seven six thousand if you'd like to join the conversation and put a question or comment to Al santoli and our toll-free number one 800 695 hundred. Let's go back to the telephone and your question, (00:18:51) please. Yeah, good afternoon high before I make my Question. I just want to make it clear that I am not prejudiced. Okay, but the statement that I'm about to make me sound a little bit way. I would like to know how come the United States government during the in flood of indo-chinese into this country gave seven years of free taxes and numerous other benefits to these people when myself at that same time. I was struggling just to make ends meet now, I'll hang up and listen to your (00:19:24) response. Well, I think that there's a lot of misconceptions in some ways. We're from to my knowledge people didn't get free taxes. I think in many cases people got public assistance and again part of that was the fact that these were people who would have died if they didn't receive the Asylum. And again, it's a moral question as to how you value in life. I mean during the 1930s when Hitler offered to take the Jews off off his hands and the West responded well, A lot of people died at the end of World War two and one of the people in the book talks about with the with Eastern Europeans that were refugees and in Western Europe when United States Britain and the other countries felt that they couldn't absorb these people and sent them back to Stalin. Well hundreds of thousands of people died and mint and hundreds of thousand others were put into into slave camps in Siberia. And again, my my feeling is that people again the welfare system in the country has gotten out of whack not only for newcomers, but for people who are native born Americans and I would be more in favor of people who are newcomers paying back the initial assistance that they receive when they can if they're not somebody who's a very old person in can't work or somebody who's disabled or in some cases single mothers that have a difficult time and in the same way if there were programs created that are you know ways of bridging these these cultural barriers whether it's through language or through the fact that anytime a newcomer Here's a new Society. There's going to be you know problems. I mean, it's a member when I was a kid in Eastern European kids would come in when I went to and the school I was going to was holy family in parentheses Bohemian Parish. The newcomers always had a rough time fitting in and a lot of it is just our response to two people that are different than us back to the telephone for another caller. And it's your turn. Go ahead please. (00:21:18) I was wondering if you could Define for me what the difference is between immigrants and refugees and people who seek political political Asylum. What are what are those all different terms and what they mean? And also I'm wondering if you have any idea just exactly how many people have come to this country since the end of the Vietnam War from that part of the country. The indo-chinese amongst of I'm not sure what the proper terminology would be. (00:21:45) Well definition of a refugee is somebody who's by United Nations standard as somebody who flees persecution. For religious political or ethnic reasons on immigrants somebody seeking Asylum and Asylum Seeker is some a person under that category who goes to a second country or third country looking for a Haven for safety and or residents? And then the people that are called immigrants are people who leave for another country or enter another country looking for a better economic future and America has always been a mixed bag. I mean from the time of the pilgrims of people meeting all of these different criteria, and I think the numbers of people that have come from Indochina. There's been something like this is Nationwide around 70,000 people Hmong people from Laos, maybe half million Vietnamese and maybe around something like a hundred and fifty thousand cambodians back to the telephone for another listener and it's your turn L. Santoli is listening. (00:22:58) Hi. I have a degree in modern languages from Europe and I also had a high score on my notice of rating for the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio of Monterey, and I'd like to know if you feel there is an impact. I'm with the through this tremendous pressure. There is to assimilate with the English official language laws in 14 States and and other pressure on our gigantic trade deficit. I find many employers here in Minnesota. Don't take talented foreign language skills too. Seriously, and I'm wondering if this has an export on our trade performance picture. I know when I was in Europe many Americans had the reputation of having terrible foreign language (00:23:54) skill. Let's let L santoli react. Yeah. I think that's a good point. I think in many cases because of the assimilation process because we've all come or our ancestors have come from so many different backgrounds that Force the survival of the nation we had to force ourselves to speak English and for the kids who want to be long for In my household my grandparents speak almost exclusively Italian. My father has happened half kind of unsure of where he stands language-wise but English is his first language and for myself identified with you know, Roy Rogers and Hopalong Cassidy and I refused to speak Italian and I know for people of other Heritage it's a similar process and I think in many ways because the world economic Market is such you know, we were so much closer with all the other countries linked with all the other countries and to do trade especially now that Europe is going to have a common market that's going to be a fierce competitor in the next decade and the Japanese and the Koreans as I've traveled, you know, as a journalist around the world you see them hustling everywhere. I think it's going to be more and more important that Americans know second and third languages if they're going to be involved in international trade. Otherwise people when you go to these countries are going to say well, I'd rather deal with somebody who I can communicate with and you've we face that kind of trade discrimination. Because of our ability to speak the other languages back to the telephone and another caller for El Santo lie, and it's your turn. Go (00:25:21) ahead. Yes. I'd like to make a comment on his reference to Haitians and American blacks the comparison between the two of them. I am an American black and I'd like to clear up the misconception that American blacks are not willing to work hard. It is a fact and I'm not exactly sure why it is but often times Haitian people. Yes, they do work hard and come to this country and do take menial labor and so forth to move up, but at for some reason oftentimes move up at a faster rate than American blacks, I'm not really quite sure why that is but I've all I have commented on it to other American blacks as well as other Haitians that they do agree that Haitians and American blacks are treated somewhat differently. I myself have at times put on a Haitian accent and got more respect among white Americans for some reason. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's a Romanticism about patient life as opposed to black Americans but it is a misconception that I would like to clear up and until you have been a black American and to make this allegation is totally irresponsible. There are black Americans in this country who still pick cotton and are still in a very low socioeconomic rut that they just can't get out of no matter how hard they work. You might refer to Jacob Holtz Book American pictures to verify that this is true. Thank you. (00:27:03) Okay. Well, I agree that there's a growing black middle class over the past 20 years, but by and large from what I've seen in our major cities, especially the place where there has been a heavy impact. Act of Caribbean and West Indian people such as in Miami and in New York, unfortunately a dominant number of American blacks are still languishing. Whereas what I've seen with the West Indian people that we take outside of Haitians we attract basically the cream of their societies people that either already have a higher education or are those are really the self motivated people that come here looking for those those opportunities and what the Haitians I mean, I'm sorry to say this but you can see in Miami for instance the difference between Liberty City, which is a dominant American black community and Little Haiti just in the attitude and and in the way that you know, for instance in Liberty City The overabundance of divided families broken families crime and Drug. We're in Little Haiti where the people again, I think it's difference. If they've come to this country. They've risked their lives by boat and there's digging their nails into whatever they can latch onto to be able to survive not only for Cells before their children, which I think is is kind of a distinction and I'm not saying this in any kind of prejudiced way, but it's just what I've observed in all the studies show that your book L appears to take that same point that you're making a to all parts of the country. We have it's not contained in your book, but there were the news accounts from Texas of the Southeast Asian people who bought into the shrimp fishing industry and basically simply out hustled the mainly white shrimp boat owners in portions of Texas in your book you have accounts of the families moving into the Uptown area of Chicago families moving into other locations and neighborhoods where they simply come into areas that have been basically a given up on by other people and use these areas to shoehorn their way into a culture end up the ladder of success you might and I think it's largely because especially for instance, you know, we'll get to the Koreans because of their tight family structure. They will put four or five cousins or friends together to create where they can't get bank loans, they'll create a credit union and they'll buy a small storefront and start by selling trinkets work 12 to 18 hours a day with the whole family working and I was struck by the example. I think was it the Vietnamese family in the Uptown area of Chicago that virtually formed their own vigilante unit. So they are not like vigilante. They were they were working with the local police that whenever a mugging would occur on the street that they would be able to call the police immediately and not take action into their own hands, but that the police would respond because at first when they moved in, I mean again, it's the mixed bag of how newcomers are received. They couldn't speak the language they were afraid to report crime because they said they were newcomers to the country and we don't want to upset our American neighbors, but they were being beaten and robbed and raped and mug at a very high rate and it was F again, this is again thanks to a city council person that responded in the local police chief whereas they cleaned up the street. The newcomers being mugged and raped and robbed it made it much safer for the native-born people to have a more stable community in the same. What I found with Ethiopians in the Washington DC area where their family cohesiveness and their aversion to doing drugs and their thirst for education has benefited the entire Community back to the telephone with another comment and question for our guest author Al santoli and it's your turn. Go ahead, please. (00:30:40) Yes, I would like to correct a statement that mr. Santoli made earlier regarding the lack of English language programs for Hmong refugees in the Twin Cities. I am a teacher in the Minneapolis public schools, and we have an English as a second language program for adult refugees and immigrants. We serve over 3,000 students a year and we have more than 50 teachers at 15 different sites around the Twin Cities area and our emphasis is on vocational English. We train refugees and immigrants in language that they would be using on the job and other job skills, and I just like to let mr. Santoli know that (00:31:26) L. Did you say that I heard you say that at the beginning at the beginning of the beginning we're talking about 75 76 up until 1980 and I think that's terrific and I think that's part of the reason why the monk have a higher success rate of people working in Minnesota than in central California where they don't have these programs at all even today where the dependency rate is something like 60 or 70 percent. So again, that's a real compliment to the efforts made on behalf of the people here have a few lines open. If you'd like to put in your question or comment to El Santo lie in the Twin Cities area 2276 thousand 2276 thousand our toll-free line is open. That number is Hundred for those of you with in Minnesota outside the Twin Cities now, it's back to the telephone and another listener. Go ahead. (00:32:20) Yeah. I like a voice in the wilderness, but The Society address the population explosion south of our borders intelligently how outline can religious sensibilities keep this situation from public discussion Mexico's 20 million in the 50s doubled the 40 million in the 70s to 80 million now with a hundred million plus in the early 2000s folk in this situation be discuss intelligently. Thank you. I'll hang (00:32:53) up and that's the great dichotomy is that I'm some hand, you know, many of us here believe that something needs to be addressed. But if you talk to the Mexican government or the Mexican people, they tell you to mind your own business and it's not only Mexico. I mean for instance at the end of World War II the population of all Latin America was roughly equivalent to that of the United States. Today they are their population is double our population and by the second or third decade of the next Century, they're going to have something like 800 million people now it's going to it's going to create even more problems than we see now on the other hand if we can sensibly deal with it and they become a more stable trading partner, especially as we're going to be facing more competition from a unified European market and from Asia whether it be the Chinese or the Japanese or the or the you know combination thereof, we would all benefit from that means including Canada if this North and South America could get their act together and it's something that we have to work for but thus far nobody's come up with any answers back to the telephone and it's your turn El Santo. He's listening. (00:34:00) Yes. I just have one quick question. Do you think in by the year? Let's say 2020 that basically United States is going to be our country of Hispanics blacks and orientals and your Northern Europeans will be the minority. I'll hang up and listen. (00:34:18) Well, there's projections that by mean by demographers that by the middle of the next Century that people of European Heritage are going to be roughly 50% or possibly less and in areas like the southwest and Southern California and maybe even New York City where there are huge, you know number of people from primarily Latin America settling and Southern Florida for that matter that people of European Heritage are going to be definitely in the minority and again that could lead to very big problems as far as bitterness as far as Resurgence of extremist movements on the other hand. For instance Miami in a in a more positive way is serving as a bridge to Latin America that Miami has become the second largest International banking center in the country next to York then the amount of trade that goes on in the ports of Miami now is about close to eight billion dollars a year primarily with Latin America, but again, what could tear our country apart is that if we are divided by language if ethnicity becomes major political issue so weak this is part of the reason why I felt it's important to start talking about it now so we can plan effectively for the future of how does properly assimilate and stay unified as a nation. Let's have another question for our guest and it's back to the telephone. Hello. We're listening. (00:35:39) I wanted to make a comment and ask for your thoughts. There was a collar a few calls back that was talking about was disputing some of your claims about the state of black Americans in our society. And I agree with your observation that they are languishing but I also believe the reason for that is not because they're inferior or anything like that. But because of all the baggage the cultural and historical baggage that they're carrying around and how their family structure was turned topsy-turvy time after time due to slavery and then being basically peons to the southern plantation owners at the Civil War etcetera, etcetera. Do you have any thoughts about how that could be approached how we could start to bring those people out of this stupor? I'll hang up and (00:36:29) listen. Well, I think the most important thing is self-reliance in self-respect and I think that one thing that's really hurt the black community a great deal is an over Reliance on public assistance there needs to be things like Urban Enterprise zones. Where people are encouraged to you know, like in a case with newcomers, which I why I think they can learn instead of hating Koreans. They could learn from the Koreans because Koreans come into the country without knowing English they come in without being able to many cases to get bank loans and they have to start from the bottom up like in the story in my book is of a guy who had a good education. He started as an orphan in World War Two where their whole country was was really ruined he worked his way by working three and four jobs to get an education came here couldn't work as a professional. So he started by he and his wife pooling with small amount of money. They had into a bag of ladies wigs and started selling which door to door after selling enough wigs. He bought a small shop that he developed into an import-export business which now is is quite successful but you find that what what one of the reasons why these people succeed is family structure and loyalty the ability to put in the long hours and it has you know, again, I think that some people in this country used Excuses to say, well, I can't move ahead because of what happened a hundred and fifty years ago or a hundred years ago or even 20 or 30 years ago. Well, the fact is that the opportunity is there if one is willing to work for it and willing to study for it and then we have a 40 and 50% dropout rate right now in many of our high schools and depressed areas of this country, especially in our cities. I shudder when I think about our future is going to be like and out of respect for those people in those minority groups, whether it be Black Or Hispanic or whatever or poor white people for that matter, they you know, the the idea of relying upon somebody else for a handout is going to further fragment their family structure creates, you know more situations where people become immersed in the drug culture and it doesn't do anybody any good. So I'm hoping that within the leadership of the black community and the Hispanic Community. There are more effort made to encourage people to fend for themselves in a positive way and education is a big part of that after the telephone for another caller and it's your turn. Go ahead, (00:38:40) please. Yes. I'm an Afro-American Off and I don't know if either of you or anyone in the listening audience knows what that means. My own family is multiracial African American Indian and European, which is not unusual in the Afro-American community and I just am really flabbergasted that but I'm flabbergasted, but I guess I'm not surprised that mr. Santoli thinks he has an answer for something that has been oppressive forces that have been fighting against the black people in the Western Hemisphere for like for centuries. We're the only group in the whole world the whole entire world that went through such a forced migration and that isn't even dealt with in our public school books. The effect of that kind of thing on a group of people sounds like mr. Santoli has more comprehension of and more understanding for the lotion people who Have been you know a victims of genocide and people from Eastern Europe and he mentioned the Jews and so forth and World War to my family. I'm the fourth generation of my family to graduate from college racism is very real. You don't have even if you are genius an Afro-American You Can Be A Millionaire and you'll still be discriminated against in this society and I wondered to the Koreans what attitudes do they have towards the blacks if it weren't for black Americans whose slave labor laid the economic foundation for the modern world there wouldn't be a western hemisphere or United States by clearance today. (00:40:20) Let's give Al santoli a chance to react hell. Well, that's one opinion. But on the other hand I've spent time with Ethiopians who have gone through a horrible condition in their country, especially the eretrians who have known nothing but war and in fact what they would say would be subjugation first by Europeans and in the past 25 years by the Amharic people, who are the dominant tribe in Ethiopia. And from those that I met that have come to this country. I mean who were also black some of them can't speak English or they speak with a thick accent. They're striving to move ahead. They're encouraging their kids to do well in school and in the words of testify gibber Miriam who is the leader of the family in the book head of the family. He says to be an American you have to work hard and I think that there are too many people in this country. I mean the way you overcome discrimination much in the way that the Jews have and there is an entire civilization that's been in dispersion, you know since the time of Christ and they have by enforced reinforcing the ideas of Education of overcoming Al have overcome a lot of discrimination where look at the they went through an entire Holocaust in Europe. They were people who when Hitler said, please take these people off my hands. The rest of the world said no, thank you. So, I mean, it's I think that if one feel sorry for themselves too much and I'm not saying this to be little or to negate what you're saying, but you have to have a positive attitude to move forward. Let's go back to the telephone for other listeners for our guests Al santoli who has written the book new Americans and oral history immigrants and refugees in the United States today published by Viking and it's your turn. Go ahead, please go ahead. Hello. Go ahead. (00:41:58) I'm here. I'm from Two Harbors Minnesota, and I would like to make a point that there is a huge difference between coming into this country. From a country where you have have received persecution into a country where you're not persecuted and having been a vanquished people like the American Indians or the blacks who are constantly trotted down that it's very difficult. When you are vanquished people whether you're Cambodian and living in Cambodia or Ethiopia living in Ethiopia or Haitian living in hey, shh where their poverty is massive and being in this country and being (00:42:54) vanquished. All right, very good. Thank you for your call in your comment. Let's move ahead to the next caller with a question for Al santoli. And it's your turn. Go ahead place. (00:43:04) Thank you so much. I heard Mr. Santoli on my way home for lunch, and I couldn't wait to get in the house to call. I had to am an American. African-American of Swedish African Indian descent and I'm appalled that this gentleman would have the gall to say that black people are languishing in some stupor that we are not motivated and that we are drug addicts as a people and and I hear him speaking about are people using a percentage a small minority of our people as a generalization for the whole we find this to be typical among some of the educated Europeans in our country. I want to talk a little bit. If you just give me a moment to the Koreans and I've been to Korea. I've been to Taiwan. I've been to China and the Koreans are very hardworking people. They have money. They know their Koreans. They have a five thousand year history. They are very much in touch with themselves. They were enslaved by the Japanese and yet they still know that they are Koreans and they have a history of black people in America were removed from their history. Did not know who they are. They do not know. They did not even know where they were going when it came time to get on that ship. We lost many people in the transition. We lost over 100 million black people in the in the Holocaust that we were subjected to and we still many of us do not know who we are The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught for 40 years in North America 43 years to do for self and what it white America do they persecuted him? I'd like to see public radio take on the other side of what of what mr. Whatever santoli his name is take on some of the Learned Scholars and historians and archaeologists in our community ASA Hilliard Yvonne certamen, I'm Akbar and present their views and get the real facts on what is happening to our people. It's a great difference as a last caller said between a people who know who they are and know what is out there for them and the people who have no knowledge of who they are just the fact that (00:45:13) thank you. Calling with your question and comment L santoli any reaction coming? Well, I think he makes a valid points. However, it's still a matter that if you look at in our cities how many people in the large percentage of minority people who were born here are struggling and part of that struggle is because of an over-reliance on you know lack of self-esteem reinforced by the fact that it's become very convenient to lay back and wait for other people to do something and say well I can't do it for myself because I've been oppressed, you know, I mean the nature of people coming to this country. If you ask even white people were they came from where their ancestors came from most people in this country have been here for three or four or five generations in their a conglomeration of many ethnicities and they couldn't tell you I agree that black people have had it struggle to overcome. But to end at the same time to say that I say that it's this part of its ethnicity no more than any other ethnicity is not naturally smarter than another at the same time one is not more inferior than And again, that's only because of one reinforces over and over. I came as a slave and I can't do it for myself and I'm impressed. Well, it creates that negative kind of attitude that never allows people to move ahead. And you know, I again what I feel the immigrants and refugees whether they're from Haiti or Ethiopia or Ireland or England or wherever they've come from what they reinforced in those in those that were born here that take many things for granted including the opportunity that's here is that the opportunity is still there? If you're willing to go for it back to the telephone for another caller and L santoli is listening for your question. Go ahead. Please (00:46:47) didn't hear your whole show, but I'm intrigued with the guilt factor in all of this because in my experience with orientals and with when where I was growing up, there were not a large amount of Native Americans organizations, like churches schools and things like this have really gone to bat for the Hmong people around here and bend over backwards to be Fisting and then the Native Americans are put on reservations and are not encouraged to power and then I heard your comment about public assistance. And is it about time that take a second look and see whether if we train and educate these people they can become a part of the mainstream and I think that Vietnam was a war that nobody very much wanted and still have guilt feelings about and then the impact that that has on whether it's the Native Americans who were here from the start or whether it's Asians who have come in very (00:48:00) recently. Yeah, I agree that there needs to be more done to encourage now with Asia with Native Americans. It's a question as to whether you know within the families or the groups in the various reservations or whatever part of the society. The people are living whether it's in a city or whether it's on a reservation if there's not this conflict of losing one's Traditions ones, you know historical Traditions with becoming part of the mainstream. I know there's been debates over that but I agree that with with American Indians with blacks with Puerto Ricans who have been in this country for Generations that there needs to be more encouragement for Education there needs to be more encouragement for a small business and Independence and developing the communities from a Grassroots level, which I think would be would benefit all of us. What's your impression a love the immigration the ins bureaucracy? Is it mainly fair? Is there a lot of bribery going on? I don't know about bribery. But again there needs to be a balance between for instance how one determines especially with Latin Americans Central Americans the differentiation between somebody who's coming because they're truly fleeing political persecution are their lives are in danger from those that are coming just to work and if it's a case where it's people coming to work like where we know like I say, we're having such a huge flow of coming across the border. It would be much more sensible in the long run to try to create developmental programs. Even if it's done in those countries through church groups and humanitarian organizations rather than through the central government if there's a way of doing it where the central government just doesn't say we'll just all of you Americans get out because you know, you can't come and tell us what to do in our own country. Where would be much more beneficial for the people in those countries as well for ourselves back to the telephone and a question for our guest Al santoli. Go ahead. Your next (00:49:57) question is about the Cambodian population in Minnesota. I just recently moved. From New Orleans where there are quite a few Cambodian people and that in several of my co-workers were Cambodian that was fortunate enough to sit down every morning with one of them and learn Khmer. Learn Cambodian. I didn't get very far. I'd like to continue it. But seeing as it's more would be much more difficult here than there. I had a tutor in some special attention every day wondering if there is reason enough for a person to to learn such a difficult language and what you see in the future for the Cambodian population here if there are more coming if there would be a good use for such a an adventure as we continuing this this (00:50:45) language. Well, essentially from what I've seen in Southeast Asia recently the immigration program or the refugee program for cambodians have been pretty much shut down part of that reason is politics because they're talking about a solution in Cambodia where they want people to go back to support Prince sihanouk. From the refugee camps which I think is going to be very dangerous much like the people right now going back into Afghanistan. It's a very dangerous situation as far as learning a language goes I you know, I mean, it's always a matter of personal choice if you feel personally it's going to be something that you really enjoy doing and in the future. I mean if you're working within the Cambodian Community here or in fact if some time there's an opportunity to work with cambodians either in the refugee camps or if Cambodia should ever have peace those going to be quite a huge project to rebuild that country. So it's really not a wasted effort back to the telephone and another listener. Go ahead. It's your turn. (00:51:37) Yes. Mr. Santoli. I have a question regarding the impact of the non-western immigrants into this country and its effect on our culture. I'm just wondering your thoughts on we have had a traditionally European dominated culture in this country. And what are your thoughts on how the How all these Latin American and Asian immigrants are going to affect our culture. Is it going to to change their culture into a combination of Western and non-western? (00:52:21) I think in some ways that might very well happen. I think the key thing again. It was going to be having English as the glue that holds us together under the Constitution so that we maintain the basic things that have made America what it is, which is a respect for the law, which is the Constitution that guarantees Liberties and at the same time a respect for people's Roots where they came from which in many ways, I think like in New York, which is really a multi-ethnic place. It's chaotic and whatnot. But still everybody has their own day. I mean and when they're street fairs all the different ethnic groups present their own food and you'll see, you know, Jewish synagogues and mosques for them for the Islamic people and Catholic churches. And you know, I mean, it's people tend to get along in my building, you know, where I live. There are pakistanis. There are living next door to judge Muslims and Jews living on the same floor too much as a hundred years ago one would never have thought that Irish and English and French and Germans could get along together living in the same city or even in the same state for that matter. So I think if we adhere to the Basic principles that have held this country together for 200 years. We're again within the school's bilingualism is a tool and it's not a crutch and there are ways other ways in the community for people to better communicate that are coming from this disparate cultures from around the world. I think we have a real good chance of succeeding in a positive way. Let's take the next caller and about five minutes remaining in our conversation. Go ahead Alice listening (00:53:45) L. Thank you for attacking a tough problem. I think that that your comments about and about self-image are absolutely accurate self-images everything. I mean, if you take a child five years old and for the next five years you tell him he's nothing he's going to believe it. He'll turn to drugs and alcohol and everything else. Is there as a last resort we have spent 200 years telling the blacks that they are nothing and I think I see tremendously promising signs taking place in our society albiet somewhat slowly but after 200 years what can you expect? I think that that the problem is going to be cured from within We're not gonna be able to do anything. You can't legislate respect they have to Develop their own self-image and and their own pride and go in and clean up their own neighborhoods. So when they quit trying to escape the black neighborhoods, I think that they will then build pride in their in their own neighborhoods and when they clean up their own actor, they will have the the respect and that they justify it. We (00:54:38) deserve back to the telephone line and Al. Did you want to react to them? No, good point. Let's go back to the telephone for another caller. And it's your turn. Go ahead, please. (00:54:46) Yes, I mr. Santori frankly. First of all, you've done a very good job waking up the black community this morning this afternoon. I'm a shift worker. But when I heard some of your comments on generalizations on my people, I was forced to forced to action. Basically I have to say the first of all I'm intrigued we're being discussed in this program because my ancestors were neither immigrants nor refugees. I think that ought to be brought out that goes as well for Native Americans it frankly you talking about the principles in the Constitution it was People to educate black people in this country for more than half of the life of this country and I don't understand how your lack of persist Oracle perspective is going to be useful in doing some of the things that are necessary to help me and my people out of the situation. (00:55:39) I'm okay. We have a number of callers waiting with about three minutes left to go. The fact is that education is available to everybody now and when there's 40 and 50% Dropout rates and many of our inner city schools. I don't think we can you know say that what happened 200 years ago affects the fact that our that our kids don't have the family support and the community support to stay in school and learn now, which is so important. Let's go back to the telephone for another caller and your turn. Go ahead. (00:56:07) Tony I think you have done a good job in writing the book but just as you have made a big blunder on the history of Black Americans and their contributions to this country and abroad I think there is a major error in your writing about the the foreign countries like you were talking like the Ethiopians there is really is I think you should do a better research before you come up with such a (00:56:39) publication. Well L some criticism of your scholarship there. Well, the scholarship was based on before interviewing people reading a lot of history books and spending a lot of time with the eretrians in this country. So would basically I have is from from that perspective. All right time for one more call and one more answer. It's your turn. Go ahead (00:56:58) please. I have a question for mr. Santoli. Go ahead. I have read that the population is now five. In people on Earth and it will double to about 10 billion in a relatively short time and I have read also that the earth the earth food resources can only handle enough to feed about two or three billion people and I'm wondering if mr. Santoli would like to comment on that in any way his thought (00:57:32) well that's out of my league but it seems like it's going to be a real serious problem and it's part of the reason why a lot of that the growth rate is happening in the third world the United States and Western Europe have very very slim population growth India soon going to surpass China as the largest country in the world with well over a billion and a quarter people Latin America soon going to be 800 million people within the first couple decades of the 20th century Mexico as itself is reaching close to a hundred million people and these are some huge Problems that we're going to have to deal with El Santo Lee is the author of the new book new Americans and oral history immigrants and refugees in the United States today published by Viking and costing about $20 at the bookstore. Al santoli is a contributing Editor to Parade Magazine Al you were just in Southeast Asia. And what will we be expecting to read from you in the near future? Well, I was doing an independent human rights report there with the lawyers committee for human rights, but in the future, I'm going to go back to parade and and I'm hoping for through 89 to write about programs about Community Development in our in our cities and communities that have been depressed over the past. If not recent years have been historically depressed. And you know again the important thing is self-esteem. The important thing is the willingness not to give up or not to say because of something that happened to my father or my grandfather is going to hold me down. And for instance within the book there's in El Paso Texas where the dropout rate in the schools and the junior high schools is close to fifty percent Hispanic kids that came here as immigrants who have become professionals are now going back into the schools to encourage kids to say to stay in school much like in Atlanta New York. There's a group called a hundred black men who are business men that are trying to fill the role of role models for kids from broken homes to stay in school. And these are the kinds of things that were is essential for our country. Santoli, thank you for coming by thanks to Karen tofty for handling the telephone traffic a look at the weather forecast for Minnesota indicates that it's into the deep freeze here apparently by tomorrow the overnight low across the state will be from about five above North to the low 20s in the South and in the highs tomorrow from the teens North to the low 30 degree range in the South. That's midday for this Tuesday December 6th. Technical director Patty Ray Rudolph and Clifford Bentley. This is Dan Olson reporting stay with us. Now in the Twin Cities this afternoon unseasonable warm temperature a high around the mid 40s expected then tonight partly cloudy and colder you're listening to ksjn 1330 Minneapolis-Saint Paul K. NS R FM 88.9 Collegeville, st. Cloud and wns dfm 100 point nine Cloquet Duluth superior. The time is 1 o'clock.