(00:00:07) Good afternoon, perhaps more accurately good noon. I am judge some Bemis retired chairman and CEO of Bemis company ink and a member of Minnesota meeting. It's a pleasure to welcome all of you to Minnesota meeting today. We also extend the welcome to the radio audience throughout the Upper Midwest who are hearing this program on Minnesota public radio's. Midday program broadcast of Minnesota meeting is sponsored by the by the Oppenheimer wolf. Donnelly Law Firm, Minnesota meeting is a public affairs Forum which brings National and international speakers to Minnesota. The membership of Minnesota meeting includes many of this community's leaders from corporations government academic Academia and the professions the next schedule speaker got to get in a little plug. For Minnesota meeting is renowned architect IM Pei on set on December 6. Minnesota meeting is pleased to present today's speaker Sir Charles Villiers talking on a view from Europe the new culture of capitalism. So Charles will predict the effects of the 1992 elimination of European trade barriers. He will also describe Britain's reactions to the Asian industrial juggernaut. Following his presentation questions will be addressed from the audience. Please use the cards at your table to jot down questions for discussion Steve Young attorney with the firm Winthrop and Weinstein and former dean of the hemline Hamlin law school and Jay and MARSOC executive director of the Minnesota meeting will move among you to manage the question and answer session. Sir Charles Village is chair of the British steel industry limited the job-creating arm of the British Steel Corporation, which he chaired from 1976 to 1980. He also chairs the small business research trust and is a director of the William scenarists Institute here in Minneapolis. He writes and lectures widely drawing drawing upon his experience directing an Eclectic array of banks insurance companies investment trusts and Industrial companies, including bass breweries, and Cottle textiles. His tenure with British steel is band giant has been plant closing and difficult labor negotiations as well as recent Resurgence in the company's health and renewed sense of responsibility to the community. The list of his involvements is long and rather than review the record in detail. I would prefer to introduce her child's in more personal terms. Charles Villas attended Oxford in the 30s and there he met a young American Rhodes scholar Louis van deusen from Philadelphia these two young men formed a remarkable Damon and Pythias kind of friendship that continues to this day almost weekly over the years. They have exchanged News and Views on current events personal happenings as well as world affairs. This most unusual exchange produced in both these men a perceptive understanding of the others country who are politics economy and Society. Young sir Charles's case this led him to a remarkable appreciation and affection for the USA and Americans. He's a real live Yusuf. I'll partly for this reason and partly because he has no patience for the status quo. So a child has been critical of the UK's establishment his recent book start again Britain full of positive suggestions for change met with a predictable lack of enthusiasm from his British friends and Associates, but nonetheless made people sit up and take notice another Insight building on their own experience. He handed and his old Rhodes scholar friend, Lou van deusen have put together an annual three-day meeting of 25 British and 25 American Business people and professionals outstanding 30 and 40 year olds to discuss issues and hopefully form new lasting u.s. British friendships. The fourth such meeting was held just last week in st. Louis. Finally a note about surcharges wife because knowing her illuminates him as well lady Villas is quite a lady in both senses of the word title and noun on the one hand. She entertains the royal family with poise and charm on the other and this from personal observation. She can fix the household plumbing in nothing flat wielding her own spanner born in England of Belgian parents. She was active in the Belgian underground in World War II and experience she recounts in a book with a delightful title. Granny was a spy just published in the UK. I'm sorry that lady killers did not join her husband on this trip, but her husband is here today and I am honored to present to this Minnesota audience. So Charles billers and International Industrial Statesman perceptive Observer and innovator such as (00:05:37) Well, thank you Sandy for that very friendly introduction. We've been friends for a long time. You haven't believed all he says, you know, but he was a being a good friend to me now. Can you all hear me? Yes at the back. Oh, that's a relief. The last time I asked that question kept jumped up and he said yes, I can hear you. But I'd like to change places with somebody who can't hear (00:05:57) you and you may feel that later on in the day. (00:06:02) Well now I want this morning to recognize very powerfully the way in which Minneapolis and st. Paul in which the Twin Cities are held in the world not only in America, but in Europe and elsewhere, I think the people do all recognize that you have in the Twin Cities a very clean very strong very Dynamic government and this is enormously appreciated as an example all over. And the other thing is the amazing success of your business men great companies started here and the huge success that they have had everywhere is very widely appreciated and have no doubt about that. Wherever your products are sold or wherever your businessmen Venture you have a very high reputation behind you and I would like to recognize three people to the static Pillsbury salad George not here today, but you are and of course, we all know that Pillsbury is under siege and Under Siege by a British company in which my son worked very many years and he's the Brewer and when Grandma took over what nice he went into Grand met and with the director of their Brewery in matters that I do know the company very well and I'm in no way going to predict the outcome of the And shenanigans that are going on but I can say that Grandma it is a totally responsible will ordered company. I don't think it is yet evidence the wonderful Civic sense that Pillsbury had always demonstrated but it is a totally responsible respectable well-ordered company and Sally, I think I thought you in the presence of all these good folk the perhaps things will never be the same again, actually whether I wanted to do that very much and I want to recognize also Sandy who as you will all remember has set up the Minnesota Business Partnership, which scent I think I'm right in saying after 12 years is a vigorous child and approaching its grown-up stage in life are good for you and thirdly thirdly now, I do want to talk about Bill Bill North and yesterday. I attended more meetings. Of his Institute and I was a maid at the length important complexity side of the propositions. Now, I'm not going to go through the board with you or we'd be here till midnight, but I can tell you let me just tell you one. It's called K12 Consortium. What do you think that stands for? I tell you that is kindergarten to grade 12 for computer-based learning if these the most ingenious thing, I've heard and Bill. I wish you every good luck with that and I'd like to try and introduce it into Britain to where we are doing a tremendous revolution in our own educational system and you have here A whole list of other things are not going to take you through them. But what I do say is that you have in build a giant of an innovator a man to be very proud of thank you Bill for inviting me to join your board. Right. Now I'm going to talk. I hope not too long about three things. And the first is about the recovery of Britain from or 10 years ago with the rather. There's a little situation. I want to talk about how I see the European movement and the famous 1992 will whenever it does happen. It won't happen. Then I can tell you but never mind there there's a Target and lastly I want to talk about The Challenge from the Pacific Rim in all of which countries they have had a great deal to do for many years. So he ago when I first of all in Britain, we have had a revolution they absolutely no doubt and perhaps I can put it in context by saying that there we haven't had anything like it since Oliver Cromwell and that the 300 years ago. And Oliver is a great revolutionary and he was determined to bring an end to the divine right of kings and with that in mind he cut off the head of King Charles and after Oliver King Charles II and James II actually came back but not for long and King James ran away to France as they say he threw the Great Seal in the Great and the privy in the privy and that was the end of the divine right of kings and that was succeeded by constitutional monarchy, which have led to the last 200 years of considerable Prosperity without Thatcher. Now it's very interesting. But that just hometown of Grantham is quite near to Oliver's Hometown, which is Huntington on the East Coast the brick wall. And I think there's a considerable chance that these ancestors of these two people were came over from the same German tribe who all surged over Britain after the Romans left in the year 400. And before the Normans came in 1066 as you know, and we had waves and ways of Germans coming over and they settle but they made Britain in fact, and I think that that and Cromwell is not too amazing to think that they might have come from the same tribe now, they both they we called her the unguided and unguided missiles. But I tell you what, they both have missions in life and either you're one of us or you're not and they have a determination and courage and ability far in excess of the normal human rationale. They have single-minded and I have to say it certain Oblivion to the views of other people and Oliver. He was called the he was called the Yeoman farmer. And of course Ash has been called the shopkeeper, but they are both from that group of people in the middle middle middle of our society from whom really the main inspiration has come and I think that the ongoing situation beyond that is frightfully interested. I suspect that the pendulum will swing back a bit towards the middle. It always does doesn't it it swings out and it swings back and it always comes back towards the middle and I think that in due course that to conquer One Forever that there will be another leader of Britain probably from within the conservative party rather than from the Labour party. Because that just mission was to crush stop Wipeout socialism. I mean, that's the way she put Angie has his conviction and I think that she would do that. We have flirted with socialism for many years. It has in fact done are some good but it certainly had ceased to work by the end of the 1970s and Britain was at that time almost ungovernable. So I think as the pendulum swings back it will be another conservative who succeeds Margaret Thatcher. I mean you just look at the government of Japan for 30 years the same party has produced the Prime Minister of Japan 30 years of Liberal Party think that they can so that's a route. I think that we may take And it could well be that you know, this century is going to be over in Covey as time and we shall then enter what is widely called the post-industrial world what that really means, of course is that all the stress on the shop floor and on the production line stress it Holmes just the hospital strength everywhere. We largely be removed from us by the devices which bill you and others are very busy selling and installing all over the world now. I think they'd in this connection. I'm going to tell you a word about steel. I've been assuming now for 14 years and you've had the problems to when I got to visit steel which was 14 years ago. It was a vast rambling government-owned Corporation making a good deal rather bad, very expensive dirty steel and we were very largely influenced by the 18 trade unions. Who had members there and we had the practice not of selling stale please note. No we didn't sell still. What do you think? We did we allocated steel because for 40 years, nobody had produced enough steel up to the wall and then the wall and then after the world of Never Enough still so my staff Live manager didn't have to sell still the allocated it and they explained it to me chairman. You don't understand. We don't sell it. We allocated. Well, I had to put a stop to that and there was quite a business but we did what we did. We put a stop to it and the Labour government who was then in part of course was deeply enmeshed with the trade unions and the Trade union said you are not to create any redundancy. Well, I did a deal with the labor government and we did we close 10 still work and I personally made 70,000 people redundant and their McGregor followed me and he made Mm. So there was a hundred and thirty thousand people made redundant in this industry and it has succeeded all I can tell you every 11 years this drastic drastic policy has succeeded and totally a high level of investment under my predecessor, which was continued by me and McGregor has given us now five integrated steel works of really first-class quality and we are this is the number to remember we are producing with 50,000 people the same amount of Steel as we made with two hundred and eight thousand people and whereas when I got there it took 15 manners to make a ton of Steel today takes five Mana. So there you see where the productivity has come from made you you've had a lot of this for a long time and we were catching up but I think it's fair to say that we have caught up to a very considerable. jibril extent and I think I can honestly say that a bit of Steel which is to be sold to the public on 22nd of November 3 weeks time has quite a good chance of holding its position as one of the leading steel companies of the world and you can imagine anybody being connected with that feels really very satisfied about it. But I stayed with the company after I had been present company chairman at the request of McGregor to run the subsidiary that creates new business and new jobs in the place where I close this deal over. And there were between 10 and 15 communities absolutely ruined by the closure of the theorem. There was nothing else to do there was nothing else and we got down to this and I have to say now after 10 years of doing it that we have helped to start or create 3,000 new PIN of them 600 gone bust but the remainder have created we must be very nearly 90,000 new jobs. And so those areas that we're in desperation. I remember going around them and they were so unhappy they said unemployment is nearly 50% in this town. Unemployment in those areas is now back pretty well to the National level of about nine percent and I'll tell you what an amazing story that exactly 10 years ago it fell to me to close this deal Works in every Veil. Now those of you who know by Britain know that every Bell was the constituency of an errand Bevin and Michael foot and all the great Labor leaders of the past the most labor controlled placed in the whole country and when I closed it to you, but that was a frightful row and the yells - shouts this hang this man terrible things. And we got down to it to regenerate with the council the whole area and the Fortnight ago. They invited me to come the man the council to a public banquet to thank me for my efforts in regenerating everywhere. I mean, I nearly fell down collapse but that shows that it's something going on in Britain, which didn't go on before in other words. In other words. I think there is a recognition between the Brits that we have to work together and that we're not horrible people just because we're capital E and I am very happy to tell you that Authority. I think it tells its own story really as well. Well now how is all this being brought about? First of all a no doubt the Thatcher effect you conquered away and she said that managers can and must manage their own business without Help interference from government and will be no attempt to keep business open and going just to please the trade unions and to keep calling partner that policy is gone out of the window. And this is the basic thing it is what happened. And the trade unions are there for all of back and managers are managing and I don't say what all the most wonderful managers in the world, but we're certainly deeply involved in managing in today's terms in tomorrow's terms and into the next Century at number one. No, the remainder I'm looking no, but I wrote down here and I think that many of the things that you know, but I mean incentives. We now pay people on a plant by plant basis according to the productivity and results of Applause and I'm sure you do that too and we were over long in introducing their that as the workforce lost confidence in the Trade union. We have developed a relationship with the workforce with work for not necessarily with the unit of trust and confidence which is certainly paying off and we got further to go but it's paying off then I'm bound to say and you won't like this you weren't late at all but into the steel business. Came a massive injection of government money massive seven billion pounds and without that we would not have a steel industry today. Now, I'm sure all you good people who were brought up in the northeastern capitalist tradition will think that was terrible. But if it is still had not had that injection, I have to say the French of the Germans and the belgians have had it as well. We would not have a steel company in Britain today of any size or important now I leave that thought with you. I mean, I think it kind of make you uncomfortable and rather unhappy but that is the fact which I was not prepared to dark where no for these reasons industry company. We Face 1992, which is when all the barriers in Europe opposed to come down we face that with confidence. We are already selling 35% of our steel outside of Britain. We are competitive everywhere. We are competitive in the United States in settings deal to Japan and we ourselves are not anxious about it, but I must say that there are a lot of companies in Britain who have not gone through the terrible trauma for 11 years that we have of getting it. And I think that they do have some shocks coming up to them. But that's the internal story. The entire story is not too easy because in fact Britain is in deficit with the other countries of the community in trade to the extent of 10 billion pounds of the year, and that's not exactly the place you want to start from and have a great liberalization. But nevertheless we've got to cope with that and that our problem but what you're thinking I'm sure is is this going to be Fortress Europe. Are you going to put up the barrier the get them? Are you going to keep us out? Where I have had a very long talk with the director of external relations of the European Community a German extremely intelligent and very determined man. And I think that I can say to you that it is certainly not the intention to create Fortress Europe we want. I mean, I'm sure that it's genuine. Not only what the politicians say. This is a desire a strong desire to keep as much free trade going as possible. And I think by 1932 the trade in Services by which I include Banks, I include insurance companies and services generally the accountant the lawyers that these will as far as we can be unilaterally on our part made free and that will be in able to flow all over the European picture and into America where of course it happening already took considerable extent. So that I mean the services are not worried about I think that's going to be fine. But when we come to production to good the product, we already have a great many bilateral agreement that have been entered into over the last 20 years. Now, we can't unilaterally tear them up and say oh no. No, it's no good. We're going to open a different tack. So they do have to be recognized and to be brought into the newer and wider picture. And the formula that we are working upon which I give to you is that we will never be less liberal than our trading partners. In other word if in America you are liberal to us will be liberal to you will be certainly not less liberal than you. So I think it's going to be a big step forward. I don't think it'll come in 1992. I think it will take longer than that, but nevertheless I don't think you need have great anxieties about Fortress Europe because we shall be as liberal As You Are Where now? There is deep in the European culture a very strong tendency to bureaucracy a tendency, which I believe can be detected here and there in the United States read no doubt that the bureaucrats or tend to slow things down and change too much and you may think that means we're dragging our feet. I think it isn't I think it's the bureaucrats doing their stuff and if we appear to slow down it is because of your rockers did not because of evil intention and I hope you will bear with us on that. We're now I want to move on from Europe to the Pacific Rim which was the third topic that I was invited to speak to you about. Well now Perhaps Perhaps the British and the Americans are to what we say complacent perhaps to secure in our past successes dreaming of the good old days when the world beat a path to your door and you didn't have to do anything. You just sold without difficulty and We're Dreaming of the old days of the Empire when you know, they were Governors and secretaries and people who automatically bought their goods and replace their goods from British sourcing and a man would have his production schedules and he'd go around set off without Africa to Australia New Zealand come back via Malaysia and India and the near East and he'd have sold his whole production and that was the easy way. We had were no internet Empire anymore and we have to fight for every bit of it, but We have been recently very much impressed by the Japanese and the other countries in the Pacific Rim and Sandy permits me to quote from a letter by mr. Preston Townley the dean of the University of the Minnesota business group, and he does been in Japan with the group of academics and he says here our host that the Japanese were quick to lament Japan bashing in the United States and then delivered some rather vigorous United States management bashing, but they're cheap Target was United States management focus on short-term Financial results now, I think that probably rings a bell in many people that need it does have me And the times are changing they found a self-assured in Japan, which he did not expect and the Japanese muscle-flexing not just in the marketplace, but in world affairs when I we are up against something very formidable. Yeah, and I know that many of you go to Japan and you go to the Pacific Rim and that of course includes Korea and Taiwan and Hong Kong and Singapore more and more Indonesia, and it is undoubtedly a tremendous threat and challenge to it now look, We have a different background and we always say different country. We and I think that we all share this we have What's called the Protestant work ethic and it arose after Martin Luther in the 16th century started the Reformation in Europe and the Protestant Church grew out of the Catholic church and the Protestant church if he can't get away from it is on our back, isn't it? Wow, whatever particular sect we are these ideas are on our back and I have to say that to a considerable extent. It is adversarial their goodies and baddies. There are Christians and heathens. There are Masters and men and that Has been a competitive basis and it resulted in philosophy which perhaps I could sum up by calling it all against all and the devil take the hindmost. Now, I was brought up to that and I bet many of you well, too we know that is the fundamentally adversarial non-cooperative ethic culture. Now, let me take you across the world and in the Pacific Rim the countries that I mentioned the ethic the culture comes quite Detective Lee from Confucius and Confucius lived in China 500 years before Christ, and he did not put out any religion. He merely said that this is how human beings should best behave themselves and he based it upon the family. He said the family is the unit. I see run me and we should behave in the way we do in good family and he based that then upon five were benevolence and certainly families or to be benevolent Harmony course, we should be harmonious upon loyalty. Must be loyal to the family and learn learning was very important. The family should see that learning was continued and the fifth word is respect respect. We perhaps have lost some of those with but that philosophy you see is not adversarial. It is cooperative and that does account for the rather different attitude of Japanese businessmen who do cooperate with each other very much more than the Brits do already that the American now. The priorities of businessmen do for that reason check and I just want to take forward. Can you still hear me at the back or have you switched off your all right, look I got big forward and the for grads are management Workforce shareholders and customers. At what priority do we arrange them in? How do we rate those forward when I've been a manager for 55 years when we're not and I have no doubt that in the west. Our top priority is management itself The Cult of management the choice of management education the training of management the pay of management the perks of management. This is right up here and we think that is the most important thing. Who beat but I have to tell you that in Japan and the rest of the East management is not the top priority. It is not the top priority. There is the workforce because this is their most important asset their most expensive asset the asset with the greatest potential for improvement. And this does produce a quite different Circumstance the Japanese think that the limits to the workforce potential back to No, Limit. It is infinitely rewarding that they give that loyalty for Lifetime. That they get there by the incremental improvements that are going on all rounded all their Works in all that businesses and that the quality and just in time and other techniques have sprung out of this fact that they put the top priority of the top business priority is the Improvement and getting benefit from their Workforce Now, what about the second priority? I think there is little doubt that we here in the west and I think especially so just now the second priority is the shared because he owns the business then they in law. He owns the business and what's more he's the only person shareholders the only people who can sack the management. So I think we inevitably put the shareholder up in number two black and there he's pretty secure and we see it, of course going on in leveraged buyouts and everything else the importance of the shareholder in the west is extremely important. We're known Japan under their different culture. That's not so they do not put the shareholder. They're tall. They're second priority is the customer. And I mean we would have to look on the customer is sort of a bit of a nuisance really with all these complaints and that (00:35:12) special, you know, (00:35:14) damn fella wants (00:35:15) a special color or (00:35:16) special fitting and I got to modify the productivity and the Japanese put him right up in second place and they take we have no customers. We have no business. Of course, that's right. And you therefore get in the pacific room immense attention to the detail of what the customer wants and if you wanted a little bit different here have it a little bit different and you look underneath they don't only paint on the outside. They paint all the way through and underneath then in I mean the attention to detail to get the customer is absolutely vital for and and and this is where the huge difference come we are all in the west. We are all absorbed in market share. We're not a bigger pot. I got wrong. We are observed obsessed with the bottom line. Net net revenue in the bottom line, but Easter Japanese do not look with such interest that that they look at market share and market share is only got by pleasing the customer. So when you're dealing with the Japanese you have to recall that he is thinking of increasing its market share, which is the big sun and you were thinking of your bottom line. So you probably don't think about the same thing and in order to be able to think of market share he had to be able to rely on his bank who will carry him through difficult times over a long period he has to rely much more on his shareholders. Not just you know tip him out when he's not doing very well and you've got a different system that arises from the emphasis on increasing market share rather than the net net net of the bottom line. We know let's take the third priority and in the west the third parties we will Cross the river we will have had the customer. They're tossed him as he is and we'll have to have it there and that he is and we do our best for him. But perhaps we don't sweat it out too hard. And in the East the third priority is the shareholder they bring him in there and in the east of you never hear of takeovers, I mean, the pilgrims would have been perfectly safe in Japan. They don't do that. They don't think that's the right way to go about it at all Cheryl to take A Very Long View and we'll wait for the results which is what capitalism is supposed to be after everything else has been paid the ordinary shareholder get something and the last priority date toward the end of this now the last priority on our side, I'm sorry to say and it won't be true of everybody. The fourth priority is the workforce and we've been brought up to regard the workforce as a commodity a commodity that hard and far when you don't want them and that Master and man we've come through to us through century and that puts the workforce of the bottom of our priority. Where as he is at the top of the Japanese. And the fourth priority in the East is management hat Square. They come they The View they have is that management is the facilitator is the organizer who puts it all together and harmonizes it and they have a phrase the nail that sticks up will be hammered down so you don't get great match. Okay agent marching about all over the place taking everybody over when they have this concept of management, which is really at the opposite end to our so I thought that if the something that might be interesting to say to you and I fear that I may have offended some people and I apologize for that but I have built that this is something we ought to know about. I mean, I personally have no interest to defend I have no axe to grind. I want the British called past the chair, but I'm aware. Of this changing picture the old culture that we were born and brought up to is in fact change and civilization is on the track. Once again, we're on the Move everywhere. I can feel it. What was going on in Russia look good on every part of the world is on the move and as we move into the post-industrial world where you know, the stresses are going to be reduced that's going to be different to their diminishing and the work of men's mind and of women's Minds in particular are going to be of more and more important. It's going to be mental rather than wrong and we should come to this way. We will come to a greater understanding of ourselves and about other people and so as the arrow grunted Kipling said we have to ask the question. Can you fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run? That's the challenge that's for us there well, I'll be very happy to answer the question. I'm aware that my answers will be inadequate in relation to the size of the problems, which I have put before you today, but I will do my best to answer in humility and in appreciation of the sting distinguish wonderful audience that is here today. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Charles for members of our radio audience. This is a Minnesota meeting with Sir Charles Vineyards former chairman of the British Steel Corporation and (00:41:08) Sir Charles been a long time since the (00:41:10) memory of the Lord protector Oliver Cromwell has been invoked in this Central of swedes Norwegians and Germans, but it is fitting because those of you in the room will see that Sir Charles will filled his own questions on his feet in the indomitable Spirit of the Lord protector. And so those of you sitting up here perhaps you could raise your hands or Charles will approach you hear your question on the microphone and answer it and I shall be in the back of the room take questions from those of you back there Sir Charles the first question right here for mr. Pete. Yes, sir. What's your view of the likely development between of economic relations between the EC and the Soviet Union? Well, I think that's a question that illuminates the problem. Very great and thank you for it. We have to face. It's very interesting that the size the boundaries of the European commission today are exactly the same as those of the empire of Charlemagne who founded the Holy Roman Empire in the year 800 and the boundaries are exactly the same. Of course after that the Europeans pushed out. The Germans had the policy of the drunken of Austin's the push out to the East and Poland and other countries were brought in and I think that in Germany itself, there is perhaps Germany is the key to it there is and they would always be a feeling we ought to get together, but then there is the feeding my God if we do get together what will happen. What will the rest of the world do and I think it's pretty clear that the Russians would not in fact evacuate East Germany in favor of West Germany under any circumstances in the foreseeable future and I think that the answer To be to your Illuminating question that there is going to be very little change on the German front in political terms, but of cour trade will undoubtedly increase and they will be greater trade with Germany with Poland and other countries along that along that border, but politically and I think you perhaps had that tobacco mind right out in my lifetime. Thank you. Thank you sir, Charles. We have a question back here for mrs. Kathleen Ritter. Sir Charles At the end of your wonderful speech and I have read your book and I think it was great. I've also used it with my friends in England who feel that I'm being over critical of their position there, but I have you as an authority you mentioned at the end of your speech the fact that women would be playing a role. Would you expound on that? Well, I'd love to do that. I'll expand on or better be careful. (00:43:51) I would absolutely like that very much indeed and I'll tell (00:43:55) you why. First of all, I have an absolutely wonderful wife who can do most of the jobs that I do better. And in the last how many years since the World War II it was really nice and he found in my life and I think most of you have that women play a far larger executive role in whatever you happen to be doing and I mean, we have a queen and a woman prime minister and those two top jobs in our country have gone to him it and more and judges and across the board across the board and I encourage this in every way that I can I think that if unless we can make use of if I can put it in that rather commercials in the talent of women were missing out completely and incidentally, but don't tell him the Japanese are missing out on this because they don't use the brain power and Wonderful capabilities women nearly as much as we do and I think American women are leading the world in this respect and I'm happy to be able to answer your question that way. Thank you, sir. Charles right there. Yes, Sir Charles. There's been a good deal of discussion in the United States recently about the possible impact of 1992 on security Arrangements. Would you tell us your views on how these might affect the relationships within NATO? Yes. I honestly I'm a tell you dear lady. I think that my views on this subject are absolutely worthless. (00:45:41) I mean, I I'm sorry, but that really is the answer and as any other credible November (00:45:51) 3 in a row from women in our community is this Emily and State? Sir Charles an absolutely delightful speech but one thing you did not address is government regulation. And I think one one factor that has an impact in this country on productivity and on the way business looks at government is the regulation if they get out of line, is that true both in Great Britain and how do you see that happening in the economy market? Yes. Yes. I mean, this is the right. You've got right to the heart of the matter here. How far do we regulate this? But that's the thing productivity which you read for I suppose a hundred years. That's a hundred years America has led the whole world in productivity and know that I am told now that that level of productivity has been overtaken by certain other countries. I'm told that Switzerland and some of the Scandinavian country Britain is certainly lagging well behind and of course productivity does come right at the root of wealth creation and you worried because in this debate which has mercifully do To a close the mention of productivity of had economic problems. The whole has not been very frequent or seemed to me very well informed but in any event that's coming to an end now and then what are we going to do after that now you see the regulatory functions of the American government and the British government are not anything like what they are in Japan or in any of those countries nor indeed perhaps in France and my own feeling is this that old intervention and do you agree with the government that you got to do that? And you do that and organizing everything that will not return but what I think may come is the Japanese system which is practiced by mitad, which is the ministry of international trade and Industry that you get together this table here and you were all manufacturers of whatnot. And we will discuss how to get a significant market share in world trade and we will collaborate in that we will have our own market share. We will put it together and we will go into that area not picking up orders where we can but deliberately as a campaign going into drive other manufacturers out of that market and then to occupy their space. Look what's happened to electronics field in America. I don't think there is a single television set being made in America know that and look what happened in your motor industry and to ask the court to and so when you come to this very important question, you have to Faith a quite different culture. They go in there to drive other people out of the field and then occupied themselves. You've got to be aware of that got nobody. Thanks for asking the question. I think it's a child's. We have two questions here. Perhaps that's it right here. Sir Charles you mentioned in your speech with respect to the unification of Europe that it's among the bureaucrats that seem to be where most of the foot dragging dragging has been and yet from the outsider's point of view. It seems to me the last two years. It's among the bureaucrats that the real leadership has been Brussels and France and it's the conservative party of Britain that's been among the (00:49:19) foot draggers in other than just looking for deregulation. (00:49:23) Is that a correct assessment and if it is is there going to be some giant (00:49:27) Ploy here of (00:49:29) the conservative party in the UK reading it of getting aboard for unification? (00:49:34) Well, that is this gentleman has really driven the knife in hadn't it? He's what did Winston call it the soft underbelly. Well, I guess I got I guess I guess I got a soft underbelly but I'd like to deal with two parts of that (00:49:52) and we got any time left. By the way. Yes, we have about 10 minutes plenty of time. Well look on the bureaucratic side the mandarins at the top of the European commission take these wonderful decision and they have that great plans and like all Mandarin they expect that everybody will understand on approve and carry him out. But as you make your way down the line and get where I am on the shop floor somewhere down here you find that a lot of brakes have been put on because indeed if you were in middle management in these things, you might I don't want any change its very good the way it is. I don't think we want to hurry up. Let's slow it all down. So the bureaucratic process begins wonderfully and slows down as it go where no the other half of your question the political halt the posture of Margaret Thatcher with regard to Europe. Is really quite different and I am extremely worried really that we have got into this tangle in the past. We have intervened in Europe many times. If you recall more bruh had to deal with Louis XIV and pit Nelson and Wellington had to deal with Napoleon and we had deal with the Kaiser and him had deal with Hitler and always we had allies. I mean Winston would never have got into a situation where he hadn't got a low and I find that at the moment it's a little bit difficult to see where our allies are and there is some very hard bargaining to be done before we can continue the advance and that it was you drove the knife end of above belly and you've got some sort of an answer out of me, but I don't think that anybody knows exactly how this soccer is going to unfold and I'm afraid it. Thing delay things a bit, but it is very important that it is sold and that we aren't in a state of tension with our friends in Europe. My question has to do with trade unions your talk. You engage a little bit in Trade union bashing. It wasn't Japanese bashing or management bashing. But if these Japanese model which places the workforce in such a high priority (00:52:17) is a success (00:52:17) model and I think I read you correctly that that is the future success model as well. What is the future role of trade unions? Where indeed I would trade unionist (00:52:29) or not let the relief anyway. Well, look, I mean (00:52:40) I have spent a great deal of time and effort trying to persuade trade unions and I said we had 18 of them in the Steel Corporation to cooperate with us. I offered them. In fact what I call the still contract under which they would cooperate with us and we would inform them of what our plans were and they turned me down. They turned me down on the ground that that would mean giving up their absolute right to do whatever they wanted at any time because nobody has a right like that in fact and they turned me down on the basis that they were not concerned with Rideau with their markets at all. That was a matter of management and on that basis. I decided that we had in fact to take business forward through a relationship of the workforce itself, and that managers had to make their own. Connection with their work for on the shop floor and close to it and that it was no good doing wonderful things up in the capital you had to do it very near the ground where the action is and in this situation the trade unions have fallen back. There's no doubt. My view is and I have said this publicly. I don't mind saying it again that I think the local Trade union leader does a very good job. He knows his people he knows what they're thinking. He will represent their Grievances and so on quickiy and if you don't have some channel of communication of that sort, you suddenly find you're in trouble. So I think he is very youthful and he should be encouraged and the Japanese model does exactly that but when you get to the National level and you find Trade union leader thing, they're going to choose prime minister's then you're in dead trouble. That was what Hatcher put down. So we come back I think to the importance of Trade union in the factories on the floor representing grievances helping to get them sorted out helping the great trust between management and the workforce. That's the way I look at it. Thank you. We have a question from John Stone. Sir Charles, (00:54:54) there's some concern that if elected Dukakis would socialize medicine in the United (00:54:58) States. Can you comment on the status of medicine in Britain? And is it being deregulated where? I have to tell you I haven't been in the hospital since 1941 when I got a bullet through here and I really am not a great expert but I would say this that the Health Service in Britain has come to stay. I don't think it is going to be abandoned. It may be modified in all sorts of ways and part of it. No doubt will be privatized but that there will be a Health Service in Britain Forest are headed. Anybody can dream. I'm sure we like it we find it is not as thick as expensive as many other schemes. It's rather hard to administer and no doubt many mistakes are made but I guess that it's with us for a as far ahead as anybody can possibly guess now one of their true in the United States or not. It's not for me to say I think you were rather suggesting a different routine. No, I think you've answered the question. Thank you. (00:56:12) Well are we got two on his menu and I perhaps for the last question. I might like to (00:56:20) ask reflectively you referred to the Protestant ethic as the source of perhaps an adversarial culture. But is there not another aspect to that Protestant tradition which is the tradition of stewardship where we are given and very much in the Old Testament, which I know is important to Cromwell and perhaps to (00:56:37) mrs. Thatcher. We were given a certain sense of responsibility for the assets which are placed in our disposal. Is there (00:56:43) not there for in the Protestant tradition a way of moving closer to the Japanese model. Of course, I'd have had wonderful Christian Center. You being good to organize it? You (00:56:54) see? No, I mean it I mean it. (00:57:00) You know, you see when a family or group individual owned a business and I look at Sally now guy. Definitely. I look at the roundtree's in York. Look at me. I look at Bill, you know, if you control that then you can say well I will put so much of my income and my fortune into Civic and other memorable problems of the community and that was done. Of course, it was in the way you have referred but then we moved on from that two companies became so big they got limited liability and they were run by manager when our managers. I'm a manager do not feel the same obligation to use the money. First of all, they don't have so much money and secondly, they feel that they are just running something. Well, hopefully better than Mexican and isn't the community feeling that you know, we've got to make a great as the pillsbury's have a great contribution to the community of Minneapolis, and I would like to think that we'd go back to the olden days, but I'm not sure not sure whether that will happen and I say farewell to these old and wonderful companies with all the wonderful things. They did. I say farewell to them with sorrow. I must admit you. Thank you. (00:58:39) Thank you.