(00:00:00) Well, the 88 legislative session was supposed to be over by now, but the lawmakers have gotten hung up on a couple of issues and are taking a few days off to try to give the conference committees a chance to work out. Some agreements will spend this hour talking with political analysts Tom Horner and Bob Meek. And of course give you a chance to pick their brains as well on the upcoming State party conventions the results of the New York presidential primary the 88 elections in general Tom a republican used to be Senator Dave durenberger as press secretary and chief of staff is now vice president at the public relations firm of Hill & Knowlton. Bobby has been heavily involved in dfl party activities among other things. He ran the campaigns for Warren Spanish for governor and Joan girl for Senate. He is now director of corporate Communications with taka Corporation gentlemen, welcome. It's nice to have you back. Thank you. Nice to be here. Well, what's the problem over the legislature? Anyway, I mean they were really supposed to have been done by this time. They're talking about being done five or six days ago Tom. Well, I think one problem can Expressed in two words Rudy perpich. I think the the abysmal lack of leadership that the governor has shown starting with his State of the State address back in February where the governor gave a wish list of what he'd like to see without ever dealing with some of the real practical problems that we in Minnesota face just one example for the governor for the second year in a row not to deal with some pressing transportation problems in his State of the State address not to offer any legislative package in to the the legislature on highways really speak some of the problems that the legislature has had when you don't have that that unifying force of a governor not being able to pull together leaders of his own party with with Vanessa can and Moe being not only legislative leaders. But also political leaders for the caucus and and the Senate and the house have very very different political agendas short-term and long-term. The house is up for re-election this year in the Senate isn't up for re-election until 1990. A lot of you agree that Rudy perpich is a big part of the cause for (00:02:17) this. Well, the the parts of the legislature that are extending the session are ones that in the end are issues that the dfl can score well on in 1988. I mean, I think it is possible still even at this late date to find a compromise on the workers compensation. It is not an issue that's easily soluble or we wouldn't have been at this for the last 10 years. I think in terms of the property tax debate that you see dfl caucus has in the Senate and the house with proposals that offer very similar reforms but they're packaged differently. And as Tom points out, I think. House keeps a little little bit of an eye to the packaging for this Fall's election. The Senate might be looking a little more long term. There's also some differences are where the house sees the possibilities of increases in the metropolitan area being more severe and wants to provide some some real relief there, but the we're purpose enters into it. I think is that while the DSL party endorses Rudy perpich for governor. It doesn't really endorse his program or his leadership. It endorsed him politically in 1986 to get through that election, but the caucuses the leaders in the legislature, they are not United. It's not new. I mean Nick Coleman and Wendy Anderson went hammer and Tong for years in the 1970s. It's not new to have a governor and a DF DF L legislative leader in open disagreement. But I think what Roger mole and Rudy perpich have gone through during this session indicates that while we can paper over our differences. Says for an election. It's very hard to do it when we're actually governing and there's real substantive differences (00:04:07) there. I think Bob just sounded one of the themes that the dfl incumbent legislators are going to have to run on this year. And that is he's not really our governor. We don't really endorse Rudy perpich. He's always been outside the dfl party and I think that it's up to the Republicans to remind the people of Minnesota that even if the legislators may not have endorsed Rudy perpich Rudy perpich stood on his campaign platform two years ago and said give me a dfl majority in the legislature and we'll get things done Minnesota gave him the majority and he's not getting things done. Well again Tom's right. I mean (00:04:41) if the if you had Rudy perpich on the ballot if Republicans can create that idea then it's a different kind of campaign. But if you're a dfl legislators or a first-term one, especially from rural western or Central parts of the state with a slightly more Served a district and a charter to go in and help small businesses on the workers comp issue. You've got a vote in you've got some real progress. You've even got a situation where Republicans essentially are Superfluous to the debate. I mean what we see is the debate between one dfl leader Roger mole and another dfl leader Rudy perpich and we don't really see the Republicans aside from a few Whispers from an old Democrat when Borden it's a different session. There isn't a democratic cudgel campaigning say against a Dave Jennings. We had a few years ago coming and say boy you Republicans. You got the knife out you're trying to cut welfare and the dfl sort of set up a campaign issue against the Republicans for the fall or what Republicans have done successful in the past. St. Boy, you know, we need this billion dollar tax cut and and let's put it together instead. The Republicans are pretty silent and and the battle is going on in this very broad Democratic Party. Doesn't mean Republicans won't feel good candidates doesn't mean they won't try to run against really perfect. But it does mean in terms of the legislative battle. It's being handled with within the dfl and showing I think a real diversity of opinion about where the party is some people look that we talked to around the state will say you know, what? Where is the dfl parties future is that being debated through some of these legislative arguments? Is it a question between some of the metro in the rural parts of the party? Is it that the yuppies versus the older labor coalition's within the dfl and and you know, this kind of debate can be healthy force. It can be good because individual house members are elected on their own local issues, but it means we are going to have a very I think strong contest for the dfl leadership going into 1990 and that's really what probably already started the (00:06:54) session well much much just a second time. I want to get I want to give a chance for folks to get in on the conversation here if you want to join us. Talking about politics here with Bob Mike and Tom Horner 2276 thousand. That's the number in the Twin Cities area 2276 thousand for the Twin Cities area callers elsewhere around the state of Minnesota. Our toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 the moment and we'll get you on in just a minute now top much as Bob would like to set up what's going on over at the legislature as a great philosophical debate over how we get to The Shining City on the hill fact of the matter is it's an absolute lack of leadership by little the dfl in the Senate the house and Governor's Mansion to come to grips with some very very real problems in in Minnesota Republicans. In fact have been shaping some of the debate and I don't think you need to look any further than what happened to the the first Workers Compensation bill that Governor be towed in the house side the it was the Republicans that took the leadership on that. I don't think that one dfl legislators stood up to To speak on that bill when it was debated on the floor of the house. They provided the (00:08:06) 35 votes in order to pass it. In (00:08:08) fact, very silent 35 vote (00:08:11) well, but but very crucial pivotal pivotal votes and in the Senate obviously get carried the day there. I think there's another way to approach the session to and that is it that if you if you go into the fall, we've got a series of issues being resolved that have been, you know, kind of sitting on the back burner for years take the lottery. I mean that's been here for the past 10 years. This has been a field day for the lobbyists community in Minnesota. I'm not sure that they really wanted this issue to go through although there will be some some more activity now, but I think there's there's there's there's been a public anticipation that there should be some action on the issue. They've now moved on it Canterbury Downs was a winner in this session. We can come back and and look at a number of Losers take the National Rifle Association. I think they had some serious loss in their credibility over the gun amendment to the Constitution in terms of personalities. I think Roger mole was a Victor Roger most stood up to the governor. He called his bluff in the middle of session. I'm not sure that it did Roger a lot of good in terms of broad public support, but it did help melt his caucus around him in terms of a Loser Bob. The nasik is very close right now to being categorized the jury's still out, but he hasn't been able to deliver and another person. I remember from the beginning of the session Marlene Johnson sort of disappeared in the process here. She was going to handle some of the program and bring through some of the the administration's work kind of (00:09:53) disappeared. Let's take some listener questions here as we continue chatting with Bob Meek and Tom Horner. Bob is a Democrat Tom a Can and will take your question low they're (00:10:02) older. Yes. I have a question. Governor keeps talking about is greater Minnesota Corporation. And I wonder what it's accomplished if it's responsible safer cray research deciding not to expand in this area or he wants a lot of money for but what's it (00:10:24) doing? All right, who wants to talk about that? Bob Greater? (00:10:27) Minnesota is still being established. I would put that under the Perpetual Legacy category that goes there with the environmental trust fund in some of the other Governors ideas where he wants to leave this 10 or 15-year impact on the state. The motive is excellent. What the governor is saying is we can't have politicians running around the state of Minnesota in the rural areas saying we're going to save the Family Farm we're going to bring back agriculture. Everything's going to go find the governor saying you going to have to have a broad diverse economic base in rural Minnesota. The argument is is greater, Minnesota the vehicle that Funded as in some states, it has been successful in bringing some Venture Capital through a state-sponsored program, or is it a boondoggle where you can reward certain friends and businesses around the state this an argument that the legislature really hasn't settled on (00:11:15) the fact of the matter is is that if Greater Minnesota Corporation had been funded and was up and running a year ago. We'd have endotronix today the state ought not to be a venture capital of capitalist of Last Resort. And of course not an appropriate role for the state (00:11:30) government the Greater Minnesota people would maintain that if you had that Corporation in place, they would have been able to give the give the scrutiny to stop and (00:11:37) endotronix. Okay. Let's move on to your question. Hello, Bob and Tom are listening. (00:11:41) Yeah. Hi. I have a few quick questions. First of all, I just like your opinion if Rudy perpich is losing a lot of his popular support that he had in 86. How do you think the 1990 gubernatorial race May work itself out with George Latimer seeking endorsement in Roger Mo and perhaps Marlene Johnson. And my second question has to do with the senate race and we have a three-way race. And right now we have Dave durenberger Polly man and Hubert Humphrey and Polly man has stated that she will run even if he does not get the endorsement and I was just wondering what you see is the outcome of all that and my last question has to do with the vice president and I was just wondering who you see as coming up as vice presidential candidates in each party and I'll hang up and listen (00:12:29) three. Excellent questions. Let's start with Tom Horner on number one. Ha ha ha Which is popular support all the polls right now showed that the governor is one of his low points in terms of popularity. I think that the people of Minnesota are afraid that we're going back to the Rudy perpich of the 1970s that when things are a little too warm and st. Paul he vanishes and and shows up in communities around the state. That he puts his agenda ahead of everybody else's I don't think that there's any question though that the governor is positioning himself to run for re-election in 1990. And I'd had a caution to my Republican friends that as unpopular as Rudy perpich is today Rudy perpich is never better than when he's in a campaign. He is a very very effective campaigner. He uses campaign political issues very effectively to to generate popularity for himself. Well, do you think that there's any chance that Roger mole George Latimer Marlene Johnson would succeed if they tried to run against him. Yes, not those in particular. I think that certainly Marlene Johnson. I don't think she challenged him come and Governor, but and I'm not sure that when the chips are down Roger mole would either I do think however that the George Latimer will take another shot at the governor in a primary in 1990, I think. Latimer learned a lot of valuable lessons in 1986 and how to run against Rudy perpich and I think that it will be a much different contests in 1990 than it was in 1986 by me. (00:14:12) The Democratic contest for governor is probably far more interesting to the delegates that are going through the convention process right now than the senate race, you know here we're talking Mike. Aah John Daris Marlin Johnson Roger Mo the the list is probably larger. If you do pull purpose out of it. It's smaller. If purposes in if purposes in Latimer has already said he's going ahead he is a far more professional view of how you make this race how you deal with Greater, Minnesota the importance of early fundraising and it would be a I think a better contest than it was just two years ago if purpose. He's out at this point. You've got a fellow like my catch. It is probably better organized in the state of Minnesota than Mike Dukakis. I mean if you went to a County Convention in the last month the advanced person who met you at the door was for hatch the first poster you saw it was hatched 90 the button you saw or the sticker. You saw it's a very it's very active contest Roger Mo has succeeded in this session. I think in elevating his name where he was in the the B group of candidates. He's Clearly Now a a contender John Daris gets a lot of good press on pulling together the transit issue and the Hennepin County for light rail, but it may not click for this particular contest. (00:15:46) All right, let's move on to the senate race this fall during Burger man Humphrey. What do you think? Tom I think the the only surprise at this point is how quiet the race has been particularly from skip Humphreys vantage point but Polly man is a very credible candidate who's going to bring in a very important faction to the dfl convention. I don't think that she can wrestle the nomination away from from Humphrey. But I do think that she'll be a factor and I think it is something that a situation that Humphrey has to be concerned with. I am surprised that given the the disparity in the polls with the the substantial lead Senator and burger has that Humphrey has not been more aggressive in trying to find issues and and taking the campaign more 22, Senator and burger. All right Bob. (00:16:44) It's like they both studied under the Baltimore Orioles, but the contest has not begun the Humphrey campaign maintains. Incident and I perceive rightly that they're still within Striking Distance that durenberger unlike a boss which in 84 and experience that I'm familiar with has not fully cocooned and insulated himself with the paid media advertising that boss which had already completed at this time in the race. Another comparison would be that that Humphrey sits with three to four times the money that the Democratic candidate had back in 84. I think the contest has a as a real possibility of degenerating into a sort of a back room name-calling a contest. We saw tidbit and small column notes in the to Twin Cities papers. I believe recently that essentially lay out the argument that it was whispered in every back room around the state and its that Humphrey can't win because he's going to be shown to be stupid and the durenberger can't win because he's going to be shown to be Able or they raised it generally and they say the sleeves issue. Now that is already in print in major newspapers. I think the reason is is that the campaigns are silent. I mean there is not any active campaigning that has engaged people. It's going to bring out a little something when the legislative session is done. I think both campaigns will actively deny the stupidity in the sleeves issues. However, I don't think that these little items pop up from nowhere that's not been the political experience over time. I think people know this and that the candidacies are going to have to deal with it by actually putting on an aggressive real campaign. (00:18:34) I think they do pop up from nowhere in fact, and and I guess that I'm appalled with the way some of the media have treated this campaign. In fact, Senator durenberger right now has nothing to gain by going after skip huh? Free the situation is not parallel to 1984 when when when boschwitz ran against John grow Humphrey has perhaps the most visible political name in the state of Minnesota. He has been in an office the office of Attorney General that is one of the most political or attractive political offices in the state. You're always on the side of the angels He has raised a lot of money as Bob said and even with all of that the polls show that Humphrey is slipping that the Gap is widening that Humphrey got up to the high 30s and support and now it's backsliding and the Gap is widening and I think that speaks well for for durenberger that he remains the most popular politician in the state has job rating continues to be very very high. I think Skip Humphrey is going to have a very difficult time making an issue out of anything. Let's talk just quickly then about this last question in our caller raised which is about The vice presidential candidates. Who do you think? Well, the presidential candidates clearly will be George Bush and on the Democratic side. Can we conclude it will be Dukakis. What do you think? It's quite the caucus at this point. It's Dukakis has to lose. All right, so what about vice-presidential choices on both sides? I think on the Republican side bush has a lot of very very attractive choices including two people who I hope get very serious consideration consideration one is Elizabeth Dole who I think would be an outstanding vice president. And the other is Nancy kassebaum the senator from Kansas. I think she brings outstanding credentials to the table and and either one would be a (00:20:32) very very strong vice presidential candidate. I had agree with Tom but I think that they also have the the sort of Mondale Ferraro effect of an interesting vice presidential candidate would so overshadow Bush who otherwise is not interesting in a compelling story for the American people that that would work to his detriment he needs to establish. Bush himself as the firm carrier of the Reagan Doctrine going forward not let the campaign get off on on-site issues of who's been chosen as vice (00:21:04) president. I think it'd be just the opposite. I mean a choice like that would chill bush is a strong leader someone who's willing to to make that kind of a decision and I think it's exactly the kind of spark that's needed in that campaign right now, Bob. Who do you who do you think Dukakis would pick on the Democratic side? (00:21:22) The logic goes to pick a southerner and among Southerners are people like Jim Wright and Sam Nunn and bumpers and you can roll out a Bob Graham. I mean you can come up with a fairly decent (00:21:36) size. What about Jesse (00:21:37) Jackson is with Jackson his comments. I think I've been that that He's looking I think more for four years from now rather to run for president again, rather than to be the vice presidential choice. It's not a natural position for a Jesse Jackson. His victory is that he has already changed the agenda for the election democrats for the last three years, especially after Mondale and taxes in the rest have been afraid to talk about, you know, working men and women and the poor and the homeless and instead have debated them. You know, we we've had an agenda for Grand Avenue, you know on the national scene and Jesse Jackson has reintroduced the fact that Democrats can talk and can talk responsibly about the needs for poor people and women and minorities and not be not be afraid of losing an election or otherwise turning off voters the only person with any Real enthusiasm right now being, you know being generated within the active dfl party base in Minnesota is Jesse Jackson and his brought in a lot of new people and has given them a lot of Hope (00:22:57) Democrat Bob Mike Republican Tom Horner with us as we chat about the political scene in Minnesota at the state legislature the State Legislative races the senate race in Minnesota, and of course the presidential campaign to let's move on to another listener with a question. Hello there. Thanks for waiting. (00:23:13) I moved back here recently. All right. Yes from Florida where there is no state income tax and I'm absolutely appalled at the spending of this governor and the legislature and I've asked does it led to facetiously the legislature pay taxes one would think they didn't and the governor raising his pay I forget how long ago that was so that it is second to New York, which is a far richer State. And also I'm curious as to the number of people on perpetrator staff compared with the previous governor. (00:23:54) Okay, a couple three things I think on the ladder one that they've addressed that issue and they're compares favorably. I think I've seen that repeated in the paper in terms of the governor's staff (00:24:03) the paid substantially (00:24:05) better. I think the numbers and the amount or are you know is a very real issue the, Florida Is interesting because you know, my friends who are get transferred down there for jobs and such immediately notice two things about Florida in addition to the tax point that she makes one is that the roads are terrible. The congestion is just unbelievable and it's very hard to have a job where you have to commute and the second is that you don't even consider sending your kids to the public schools that you immediately look to enroll them in private schools, or they're not going to be able to get into good colleges and that's that's what people say. They're now that's not saying that we should always have high taxes that you can't do things about it. But you do make some trade-offs and the news that I heard this morning on your broadcast was some evidence of that Minnesota I think is ranked as having is it economic growth or or per capita income the greatest of the 5 state area? I think we're number 15th in the country just reported this morning compared to Wisconsin the nearest here at the number 24 we I've bought some things for the that rate of higher (00:25:14) taxes. That's a democratic Canard. Are they always like to compare us with South Dakota in the fact of the matter is we're not South Dakota and if we can't beat South Dakota, then the state has real serious problems. I think the caller raises some some excellent points, if depending on what happens over the next week at the legislature. There's the real possibility that this legislature in this biennium could increase spending 15 to 20% Now, that's an in a two-year period when inflation is running a two three four percent and it's in a state where our income only puts us in the second third among all the states were paying overall one of the highest tax burdens. The legislature keeps increasing spending and I'd come back to Bob to say what have we gotten for a 15 to 20% helmet was 15th in the (00:26:04) country. I didn't say 15 among (00:26:07) you what have we got here in the states. We're what are we getting for that extra Smith ranked 24th? Income Bob. What have we gotten for that extra 15 to 20% in spending in our are rotating better our roads any better over the last two years. Do you think our schools have improved over the last two years? Do you think the quality of our health care has improved over the last two years? What is the legislature doing raising spending 20% and not giving us anything in return (00:26:31) for it the the argument and the report that was released this morning. Is it in the last it was either three to five years we have outpaced the economies throughout the Midwest including a state like Wisconsin that has an industrial agricultural mix and last year we want to do that if that's the kind of economy. We want to live in that has a higher purpose, you know proportion per per capita income and that enables people to seek and hold better and more stable jobs. We have to make some Investments. (00:27:04) This is turning done. This is turning out is it not to be kind of an expensive session for the public? I mean you have a three cent increase in the gas tax Ex you have a renewable license plate which is going to cost two bucks and you've got $10 for a for the inspection fee in the metropolitan area $10 seatbelt fine. I wonder if the public is going to recognize this by-election time and do something about it unhappily (00:27:28) bra. I think a lot of it will depend on the progress they make in property tax reform and reduction. I think the legislature has set its sights on that area. They've also just ruled off any any action in the income tax area. And so what you see is the pressure to fund whatever proper and needed program or simply popular program comes on all of these all of the site issues in the point. (00:27:54) We're spending money to build Olympic stadiums to outfit the silly ski operation in Beauvoir back to (00:28:03) do think a lot of those matters are under discussion. In fact, I'm not sure that they're all been fun. (00:28:06) Well last year we added four to five hundred million dollars in new debt for this state we are Increase taxes by 1 billion dollars were increasing spending by 15 to 20% And what are we getting for? We really have a better quality of life over the last two years because we've done those things I do. We have better roads than (00:28:23) Florida. Oh without doubt. Have you been to Florida? (00:28:27) Have you driven some of the other guy weighs? Well, (00:28:31) I would rather drive an out state highway under some of the new extension that was just voted through yesterday. Then I would try to get from you know, Clearwater to Tampa. I mean the situation is is I think always going to be one where if the Republicans want to say we can afford to do for Less in the state of Minnesota that they are going to have the argument supported as long as you say. Yeah if I've got in terms of my own personal ability. You know, I can send my kids to the private schools. I can take care of myself in the BMW going down the crosstown. But if we're talking about funding a large State process where we're going to have good roads for Farm to farm delivery and we're going to have good public schools in every corner of the state regardless of the local property situation and good State aids to support that it's expensive. It's an (00:29:28) expensive problem. Nobody's arguing with that. What we're arguing with is are we getting anything for the money do you (00:29:34) think our roads have improved over the last two years? Do you think our schools have (00:29:37) improved over the last two years? Do you think the quality of our health care has improved over the last two years? Do you think we're doing a better job for the needy in the urban centers? And on the farms over the last two (00:29:46) years? Yes. I think the farm foreclosures are down dramatically. I think the Farm loan subsidy program was a great success. I think Farm mediation made a great difference in the state of Minnesota. And I don't think you've been out listening to people or you wouldn't be saying those (00:29:58) things. It's half past the hour. Bob me can Tom Horner are with us and I think you can tell which parties they are from. Let's move on to your question, please. Hello there. Thanks for (00:30:06) waiting. It's certainly getting more heated. I wanted to call particularly on the gas tax. I saw on the news last night that this three cent increase was supposed to raise an additional sixty two million and his I figured out if that brings it up to 20 cents a gallon we should have approximately 350 1 million available at the 17 cents a gallon level and and I'm wondering where else am I he's going besides roads that they were proposing a hundred forty million dollar worth of Road Improvement seems we had to be able to do twice that without a gas tax increase under the current funds being raised in a second question is did whatever happened to the issue of the single house. Is that basically died and gone away or is that something that's still kind of on a back burner somewhere over in St. Paul (00:30:59) unicameral legislature? Okay. All right, well gas tax proceeds. Where's the gas tax money go? Everybody jumped on the panel somebody some of it goes to the state Summit goes to the counties. They use some of the trance of the mass transit. There's a formula which divides it all up but I don't think any of us are close enough to a safe drill and I mean, let me say this. I don't think that a lot of people in the state of Minnesota would object to gas tax being the second highest in the nation in Minnesota after all Minnesota because of its climate because of one of the the greatest temperature Extremes in the world between summer and winter has very significant maintenance problems, Minnesota. All will also is a state that that rightfully has invested a lot of money in infrastructure what what I object to what a lot of Republicans what a lot of minnesotans subject to is that we get to be the highest in everything and our overall tax burden is putting us keeping us among the Jurors in the nation and how is that money spent what are we getting in return is that money being used wisely? Yes, we all want the quality of life in Minnesota that keeps us here. But that quality of life doesn't mean that we have to keep spending and spending and (00:32:20) spending and I'm right and I think that's a good question. The Tom asked because if you if you want to go through and say what are we what are we buying for our money in comparison to other states? You're going to balkanize the electorate and you're going to say, you know, here's my Coalition for Highway funding. Here's my Coalition for daycare. And here's my Coalition for education in the rest. And and I think that to some extent that's the problem that we see with getting a you know, strong Republican leader over at the legislature who can enunciate some of this we a mean Tom sounds to me like you ought to go over on the floor and raise some of these questions he does well on the question of the unicameral. Yeah. I think that and we may even find some agreement at the table here. That that one of the best reforms we could have is simply cut the size of the legislature in half, but I had maintained two houses because I think it's a nice protection but I would I would think there's every possible benefit because not I used I used to think 12 years ago. When I was involved in this issue. We were debating it within the dfl party. I thought well, we should keep one of the house is small enough so that a person can go door-to-door and win an election, you know just on being on enough doorsteps and handing out enough literature. I don't see any campaigns that don't have to go for substantial funding and effort at this point and many of them that require people to start two full years in advance campaigning in their district and at that rate we ought to just drop the pretense cut the size in half make these folks more visible and more accountable and and perhaps deal more substantively. I think the campaign financing argument if enough people checked off the higher. Our contribution this year they may have as much as half of their campaigns already funded. There may be something that we want to do on the salary side. But but we certainly could do with a smaller and more countable legislature. (00:34:19) What do you think about the suggestion that came up in the it was a Saint Paul newspaper one Sunday recently that the constitution should be amended to allow Governor to serve no more than two (00:34:29) terms. Well, I think Steve dornfeld probably won't get his calls returned from the governor Christ quickly. But you know, there's the other one I liked was I believe Keith langseth senator from Clay County who said that that they ought to have staggered elections for the house and give them four year term. So they're not campaigning all the time. Now, I don't agree with the with the suggestion the proposed reform but I agree with key part of the problem, I think and it's depending on who's in control the parties a large about it, but to force these folks into the hands of of an overpowering and you know, powerful groups of lobbies to consider, you know, maintain this constant campaign presence. I mean, we've got folks in the Minnesota House of Representatives who are now acting like Bill frenzel and Jerry Sikorsky in the US House. They're sending out newsletters every other week. They've got meetings going on now. We got the Senate doing a video program. Throughout the state. I mean, this is a little more than anybody ask for. (00:35:34) Yeah, we have a full time professional legislature and I'm not sure that's what the people of Minnesota ever want. All right, let's move on to our next listener question. Hello, Tom and Barbara listening. Go ahead, (00:35:45) please. All right. Thank you. I especially enjoyed the comment about cutting the legend was a cutting the legislatures in half or just (00:35:54) but we are going to take a (00:35:55) question has to do with Concept that I feel the legislature hasn't doesn't have a very good grip on which is the idea that we have limited capital resources here in Minnesota. We have a fixed amount of money. We cannot actually print money. So for instance whenever you travel take a hundred million dollars out of our economy on average Capital required to create a job full-time permanent job in Minnesota is said to be about $20,000 you then eliminate 5,000 jobs immediately money that would have been available. For Capital to create jobs in the private or public sector the Greater Minnesota Corporation, of course has done exactly that we are down over 5,000 jobs just by the existence of that organization and them having invested their money on the East Coast. I don't know if we'll ever get back up to zero for something like that. It's a terrible tragedy to see that happened here in the state of (00:36:52) Minnesota. All right, we've had some comments on Greater Minnesota Corporation before anything new to add. Well, I just want to compliment all of your listeners today in the the quality of your audience is terrific today, but let me know speak seriously to his other point that we are a state of limited resources and we do have to make some hard decisions on how we're going to spend those resources for the future. The governor likes to talk about jobs jobs jobs and all the jobs that have been created what he doesn't say is that the country is creating a lot of jobs and the economy is Wrong and every state is creating a lot of jobs the fact of the matter. Is that the end of last year that Minnesota's unemployment rate exceeded the national average for the first time in 16 years. We're not getting our share of new jobs. Yes, we're creating jobs, but they're not our sheer. There's another report (00:37:43) out on how many high (00:37:44) technology jobs we've lost in the last few years and Hutchinson Technology speaks to that. They're going to expand but they're going to expand in South Dakota because of the tax burden here. So for all of our (00:37:57) spending, we're losing jobs why I think Tom and I regard talk about we disagree on yeah on the facts in terms of what economic growth is banned, but I think too that that it's well first to point out as Democrats that in essence we've co-opted the Republican agenda and I'm not sure how comfortable I'm always about that. But you know, the best criticism that the Republicans can come up with of Democratic Leadership at this point on something like Greater, Minnesota is Perhaps it's misdirected. The fact is we're dealing with economic issues where I can (00:38:33) 15 better course of them than that first (00:38:35) 15 years ago, but I think you might even agree with this point. Where's 15 years ago? You just had G those Democrats. They talked about nothing but helping poor people they talk about nothing but welfare they talk about, you know, nothing but more money for education. I mean, they don't talk about the economy now and I think this is what has hurt the Republican party so much in Minnesota is that the Democrats really took, you know, we took a couple good beatings from Republicans on these issues is especially on you know, paying attention to a good business climate and we've had a governor, you know, that is as far as I can tell, you know, at least on a good talking basis with Mike right that you know seems to have some appreciation for for what Business Leaders are doing in Minnesota. No, he's not going to satisfy him on every issue down the line but the Democratic party has moved over and I think this this That's probably healthy for the state of Minnesota. I mean, we're participating in the discussion now over economic growth, (00:39:32) but there's still a more fundamental difference in that is that most of the Democrats are still in an era believing that the government's primary function is regulation. I think there are a lot of us in the Republican side of the aisle who would say government is the answer to to some problems, but it's more a matter of very selected government intervention rather than regulation. Yes government does have to address very specific problems government does have a role to play in in lifting all the boats in helping the most vulnerable in our society, but to help one person doesn't mean that we have to lay in a whole new structure of of regulations and spending programs and bureaucracy instead. We can go after it with very specific intervention. Okay, it's 20 minutes before they are already. I don't know where the time is going today. Let's move on to your question. Hello there. Thanks for (00:40:23) listening. Yes. Hello one of the areas where the governor's leadership. Your ship has really shown is as an environmental Advocate and it's been frustrating year after year to watch the legislature do its work and vote down continually the popular container deposit Provisions that come up year after year and are extremely popular with the public. What's the future of this issue? Are we going to have to take it directly to The Ballot Box and have the public vote on it or will changes in Personnel from elections. Give us some action from st. Paul or where's the issue (00:40:59) going? How do you say Tom? (00:41:01) Oh, I think eventually it'll be a combination of Shifting public sentiment on it. Maybe something what we're seeing on gun control with some strong legislation in Maryland with the defeat of the NRA in Minnesota along with some improvements in technology and is as we get more and more into biodegradable, (00:41:27) Six, (00:41:28) maybe the the container deposit won't be quite the issue that it is today. (00:41:32) I think too that we've learned that that we don't have I mean this whole business about the burning plant, you know in the center of downtown Minneapolis and and whether we have the landfill space available in the rest says that that at least the koalas issue is going to have to be addressed more seriously. There's always been jobs questions and you know, how's it all going to work out but we don't have the answers yet. And and I think that there's a lot of legislators who (00:42:01) appreciate there may be some public support for that issue, but it also generates opposition from some very powerful interests of the capital the business groups and the and organized labor and when you've got those both against you it's pretty tough row to hoe is not without a real strong public stick when it's not an issue that the public perceives is at the top of their agenda right now. All right. Okay, you are on next and Bob and Tom are listening. Go ahead, please. (00:42:27) Just wanted to comment that as usual you have only men commenting on the political situation in the state. We have lots of knowledgeable and well-informed women in both parties that could do as good a job. If you had one of them, they might point out that one of the things that Minnesota spends its money on is an investment in the future by services for children, which have increased a great deal both in the last session and this and that there has been more provision for health care for children, which is a very good preventive measure that saves us a lot of money down the line also environmental concerns are important in Minnesota that and the lower crime if you're going to compare us to places like Florida and New York and the general quality of life that minnesotans have always found of value and that's why we don't have all of us letting out to anywhere like South Dakota or Florida, but I'd like to ask the Democratic representative. Or maybe both of them. He says the vice presidential candidate should be somebody from the conservative from the south and it seems to me that that was one of the problems with with Mondale that he was much more me toing Reagan and trying to not set a truly really Democratic course for himself and during that same election the Democratic senators that one did take a position that was much more traditionally Democratic and to the left of raking and didn't me too. I think it was Simon was one of those that one and carry in Boston and Harkin and Iowa and Simon always said, well, it's great. We have one Republican party, but we don't need to I Jesse Jackson he pointed out clearly has brought excitement by challenging people to remember what this country should stand for and to decency and Justice and (00:44:24) peace process. I agree with the quality of the The college be good today. I think that that the the conventional Theory at least is that that Democrats have to put together a electoral Coalition that brings the South back in and has potential capturing some of the West that that will do fine in the northeastern states and we'll break even or something in the midwest Mondale tried the jumpstart method and that was to violate the geographical balance notion for a gender balance on the ticket and perhaps, you know, Dukakis will be convinced to look at Pat Schroeder or other available women and and perhaps, you know, he'll look to Tom Bradley or or you know other minorities that Henry Cisneros from San Antonio at possible on the ticket, but the I lean a little more towards the conventional wisdom here that if you were able to take A gym right or someone who had and larger base in in a key State like Texas and could help deliver that and bring you know to the ticket, you know, the reach that goes and George Bush is unique. I think in American politics who else can claim home bases in Texas and Maine and the rest so Democrats, we have a little disadvantage there and and we and I think we think we may we may need that. You know that that Edition (00:45:59) let me respond to the first part of her question her comments in that. I don't think the environment Human Resources those kinds of issues are Democrat versus Republican. I don't think Republicans are saying we want to be a South Dakota or we want to be a Mississippi quite the opposite. In fact, I'd point out that the the only person who is presenting a strong aggressive proposal on childcare is Republican. Senator Glenn Taylor that some of the Longest environmental laws in the country were initiated by Republican Governor Harold levander in the late 60s quite the contrary. What were suggesting is we want to protect these things. We want to intervene in child maternal health care, but we want to do it wisely. We want to take the resources and we want to do it well and that government isn't always the the answer for all of these things. That's Republican. Tom Horner Democrat. Bob make is with us too as we talk about politics in this election year and we'll move on to your question now. Hello (00:47:00) there one, I would like to make a statement second. I would like to ask questions. I wonder if our politicians have ever thought of the fact that those in the northern part of the state for eight to nine months out of the Year pay P premium prices for everything because tourism is a great part of the economy up here. That's number one number two, why are there so many out-of-staters? Getting welfare can't we put a cap on that it seems that Minnesota has the much more liberal welfare program that many of the other (00:47:36) states. Yeah. I think there is a cap on general assistance as I understand it. It's ruled out at six months. I mean, we do have some some pretty strong measures. I think already in place. There is a popular notion that you've seen on some I believe of the Twin Cities tabloids about like the Gary Indiana connection or something about how people are all moving in but I think when when you look at the at the specifics that are that are in the law that that we do have some caps the first part of the question I perhaps that's true. I don't you know, I'm not a (00:48:16) business there and I think maybe the better question on welfare is how do we move people off of welfare? How do we get them back into the mainstream into productive jobs? And and that's one of the things that the legislature Just let your hasn't come to grips with they did try to deal with a related issue on the workers compensation and the bill that the governor vetoed would have put a cap on Lifetime benefits on workers compensation. Why should an injured worker be guaranteed those benefits for the rest of his or her life? Because a the job that he or she had is gone when recovery occurs when women ludicrous and (00:48:53) resolution of that that Jedi one other I went through early on about a kind of list of winners and losers in the session. I think a principal loser in the session was the University of Minnesota and and I think that this legislature has not I mean we've only begun to see the consequences of what occurred with the East Cliff and the rest earlier this year there there is not going to be a continuing March for commitment to focus you'd legislators had a loud and clear message from constituents. Throughout that controversy that there needs to be a real strong look at the University and it's going to it's going to be a I think a strong question the next (00:49:36) session. Okay, 10 minutes left with our political commentators and you're on the air with them now. Go ahead, (00:49:40) please. Okay. First of all, I have a very high regard for all the comments that are being made today. It's been a very interesting program, but I'll get to my question. My situation is that I have four small rental properties duplexes. As a matter of fact that I own I'm in it because those are my retirement it sort of my own self-directed retirement and I guess what bothers me is that I see an awful lot of hot air happening this year on property tax reform and not a whole lot of results my property taxes at this point are outstripping my ability to raise rents fast enough to meet the increases in taxes, and I guess I would just like some comment about it. I feel like as if we just Haven't been heard at all this year. I'll hang up now and listen on the radio. Thank you very much. (00:50:32) All right time. I mean, I think you point out one of the the real dilemmas that the political process that the legislature has not addressed this year. And and that is the economy is like a balloon and when you squeeze in one and all the air rushes to the other end and it's fine to say for example that we have to increase assistance and we have to increase rent subsidies and this and that and to do that we're going to get the revenue by increasing taxes and one of the ways we're going to increase taxes is by increasing property taxes. And as you point out that forces you to increase rents and we get right back into that that Circle again, I think we are facing in Minnesota as well as in the rest of the country a very very serious issue that's going to come to full force in the 1990s and that is are available housing stock is not meeting the needs and the prices are outstripping the ability of Many people to find affordable housing and we're going to have to address that problem not just by subsidization, but by addressing the tax policies by addressing rent control issues, which fortunately we don't have a large stake in (00:51:39) Minnesota and I take that one step further. I think that Tribune reported on a fellow young man who works as a dishwasher who was unable to find a secure continuous housing on on the on the salary he learns and and we're kind of fooling ourselves. I'm not sure just in Minnesota, but I think around the country that that are our economy and I think that's been one of the one of the bad effects of economic policy has created a large underclass that is captured in minimum wage jobs and essentially can't take advantage of the the fruits of what has And a healthy economy for many people. I mean it's kind of at least two tiered if not more and you know, and what do we do about that is as as policymakers, I think that'll be a good (00:52:37) important questions. Okay. We'll move on to you now. Hello. Hello there. Thanks for waiting. You're on the air. (00:52:42) I'd like to ask the panel are of what what they think the possibility is for a amendment to the Constitution dealing with the right to keep and bear arms. I know that this year it was defeated. I know why remember hearing one of your people say that the NRA was defeated but as a gun owner of federally licensed collector I've seen What I think is a lot of major Distortion the idea that guns cause crime and this sort of thing. That's that's continually bleated in the press and the other media and I'd like to suggest that perhaps the causes of crime are far more complex and that guns are a relatively small issue. And (00:53:27) all right. I think they said that I mean it's unlikely that they'll be anything. I won't be this year. I'm Emma. I fully expected the NRA would come back next year and try another run at it. I think though that that Bob's comment and the defeat for the NRA spoke more to the NRA has an organization that there was a strong feeling at the legislature that the NRA welched on a deal and and perhaps put legislators in a very difficult political spot and legislators don't like to be there Tom Horner Republican Bob make a Democrat with us in the last five minutes. Hello. You're on the air. What's your (00:54:05) question? Well, I'd like to make a comment. Somebody had called in previously. The cost of government in Minnesota our previous Commissioner of Education made 40. Mm. And when the perpetrated ministration moved in he appointed his own and the salary is now 70,000 plus and when this session winds up we minnesotans are going to have fewer dollars and less freedom than we had before. (00:54:30) All right. Do you want to say anything about that? Yeah. I mean I let me say that I think public officials ought to be paid a salary attractive enough to get the best people into the job. My objection is when we keep spending more money and I'm not sure that judging by results. Anyway that the quality of government is any better, you know, I think this year that that one of the real losers because of the legislative session is the people of Minnesota mean the whole legislative and political process. I think has been diminished by the silliness that has gone on the theory of pay for (00:55:04) Quality. I think Tom and I could agree then that we ought to have a substantial raise. For the post of us attorney general. (00:55:11) All right, let's go on to your question. Hello. Thanks for waiting around the air. (00:55:28) Concerning third party structure in Minnesota because of the problems of specialized interest in both parties and hang up to hear the response. Thank you. (00:55:42) And I think a third party almost by definition becomes a special interest it third party can't get going unless it coalesces around a strong issue that motivates people a night. I don't think that's going to happen. We have enough problems with the to all right, we got time for one maybe two more. Hello. You're (00:56:00) on hi. I'm guide a couple of questions. What is this term Olympics? I think the legislators just gone nuts on the fact that if the objective of the term Olympics Jews, they seem to spend lots of money. I think many of the things that there Governor's got in his program that he say Mike causes not to get the Olympics for instance ski jumps the biathlon the luge have nothing to do with the Summer Olympics and it's impossible to get the Winter Olympics here because we don't have anything homologate it for downhill slalom GS. There's no way we could possibly build a (00:56:37) mountain. Okay there I wouldn't bet against it kind of on the Olympics. Shall we one more? Let's take one more question. Very quickly here. Hello, you're on the air. Yeah. (00:56:47) I'm wondering when Democrats and Republicans are going to realize that there are Americans first and quick pic in extremes on issues. The Republicans seem to feel that business can do no wrong and the Democrats feel that labor can do no wrong. And then we see wrongs done all over the place. We're at the same time and also it like Andersen Windows without a union or any other kind of collusion is able to do what they're able to do and the welfare side. We see the Democrats throwing money at welfare programs while the Republicans refused to increase the minimum wage to Away with it and then you look at who's really receiving those welfare dollars is a businessman in the end. (00:57:23) Okay. Now we're going to kind of a pox on both your houses that we've also seen in Minnesota though that government can do a lot of good things in government can be very very effective. And I don't think the Republicans Or democrats are saying throw out the government. I think Republicans are least this Republican is saying make government better make it work better get more out of our dollars, you (00:57:42) know, and we'll just bring Harvey Mackay on the ticket and Tom, you know, we'll have your support and it'll be all over. (00:57:48) All right gentlemen, thanks a lot. It's been an interesting and a very quick our at the time's going by very fast. Thank you Tom Horner and Bob Meek have been in chatting about politics and we'll see you guys again at the state party conventions incidentally. Do you think anything major will happen there? What do they got to do? It's going to be hard to keep people there for three days at both conventions. Hmm. Yeah, the sending of delegates to the Democratic Convention might be kind of interesting to see which way they go (00:58:15) but the endorsement for Senate could have more Just at the Democratic Convention than the Republican one. I don't know about (00:58:23) what the right thing is a big boulder up to I think the big issue at the Republican convention. This year will be whether or not Dave durenberger can actually schedule an acceptance speech to coincide with the 10 p.m. News. Great. We'll be watching thanks a lot. Tom and Bob Tom Horner Republican Baba Democrat. Tom used to be Senator during Burgers chief of staff and Bob has run a number of political campaigns including Spanish for governor and Joan girl for Senate now, let's listen to this. Good afternoon. This is Gary eichten inviting you to join us for NPR Journal later this afternoon today on the journal besides today's local news and weather will also have a report on an interesting ethical dilemma that surfaced here in Minnesota. Is it proper to exploit potentially life-saving medical information when that information was gathered as part of the experiments conducted on humans in the Nazi death camps talk with some people about that issue this afternoon 5:00 on FM 5:30 on ksjn 1330, and that's a midday broadcast for today. This is Bob Potter Minneapolis-Saint Paul forecast Cloudy with a high in the mid 40s to low 50s this afternoon and tonight. Mostly cloudy becoming Breezy a 30 percent chance of showers a 60% chance of rain tomorrow. It's going to be kind of a nasty day with a lot of wind as well. This is ksjn 1330 Minneapolis. St. Paul. The time is 1 o'clock.