Good afternoon. I'm Jane balogh vice president a Control Data Corporation and a board member of Minnesota meeting. It's a pleasure to welcome all of you to Minnesota meeting today. We also extend a welcome to the radio audience throughout the Upper Midwest who are hearing this program on Minnesota's public radio's. Midday program. Minnesota meeting is a public affairs Forum which brings National and international speakers to Minnesota over 1800 corporate government and Community leaders belong to Minnesota meeting. We're pleased today to present a program on Athletics and education and titled when the cheering stops what happens to the student-athlete this Minnesota meeting luncheon is the focal point of a day-long conference a game plan for the future a public forum on balancing education and Athletics. It's sponsored by the College of Saint Thomas Center for academics and sports headed by Jim Radke and the give it your best shot. eject based at the University of Minnesota Jim gave me the names of the student athletes who are representing their schools, and we'd like to just quickly recognize them at this point. They're attending the day-long conference, and if they'd stay on PR Kane of North High School Arthur Hill of Southwest just stand as I read your name's Deanna Kelly of Washburn Mark Riley of North Mark bolus of Humboldt Michelle Anderson of Humboldt, Janella Martin of st. Paul Central Chris Johnson of North - Ooh Nelson of North Rod Kennedy of Washburn James Garrett of st. Paul Central and the bishop of st. Paul Central Cassell Thomas. I've been wantin Junior High School we welcome you and we're pleased to see you here. Would you stand thank you we As our guest today, dr. John Williams former All-American football linemen at the University of Minnesota and a 14-year veteran of professional football with the Baltimore Colts and the Los Angeles Rams. Dr. Williams is here and wil substitute for Harry Edwards who underwent emergency surgery Tuesday and is unable to join us. Dr. Edwards is recuperating well, and we send him our best wishes for a full recovery. Dr. Williams who resides and practices dentistry in North Minneapolis is joined today by Paul Gill director of Intercollegiate Athletics at the University of Minnesota since 1971. Mr. Gil attained All-American distinction in both football and baseball at the University of Minnesota and has played professional baseball with the San Francisco Giants the Pittsburgh Pirates and the Minnesota Twins. I would also like to introduce Mark Rosen Sports director of WCCO television who will facilitate today's discussion. Mr. Rosen began working for WCCO television while still in high school in 1971 became associate Sports director and 1980 weekday Sports Anchor in 1982 and director of sports in 1984 Mark grew up in Minnesota and has always taken an active role in Twin Cities Athletics following the discussion on Athletics and education. We will address questions from the audience. Please use the cards at your table to jot down questions for discussion Tom few Tech facilitator of the day-long conference on Athletics and education and Jane were essec executive director of the Minnesota meeting will move among you to manage the question and answer session. It is now my pleasure to introduce to you and to welcome. Dr. John Williams Paul Gill and Mark Rosen. Thank you very much. Gentlemen, the start and a very broad brush subject talking about academics and Athletics not always a happy marriage. I think a little historical perspective would be in order John starting with you about the environment that you grew up with in Ohio as a youngster certainly very active in sports and how you at that time balanced the subject of academics and Athletics was Athletics on your mind constantly. Was it a one track mind and sort of the outside influences that that helped you get through to the balance both sides of it. Well Mark, I think basically started in the home. My mother always said hey, you're going to go to college at any cost regardless and I think the other side of it was that my peers that I was involved with all my friends. We did things together by 9 to 10 guys. It didn't matter what season it was. We play baseball football track whatever it was. We were together doing it. In addition to that. I saw other friends of the relatives in the community. I would notice newspaper clippings on these various individuals some of it scholarships the University of Toledo summer going down the Ohio State some of the University of Michigan and I knew that coming out of a family of nine children, that would be tough difficult for me to go to college, but I knew that I would do it, but the question was how to do it and Athletics is really a vehicle to help me along. So it's a matter of understanding the process or lease. Buying into the dream at an early age and pursued it and it worked out. So I end up coming to University of Minnesota and went on and what I did find along the way is that Athletics the principles of Athletics are Apple to Apple to every aspect of life because it's all about overcoming then you get into The Business of Being coming an overcomer and in addition to that. I think that you know, as you go through life as always storms and you need a good foundation. I think Athletics have given me along with my family and religious spiritual input over the years have given me a strong Foundation to bounce back and become an overcomer John. I want to get back to you in a minute to talk to you about specifically being a minority student athlete coming to the University of Minnesota and finding out some of the problems. We have encountered but Paul, let's start with you again about your background in athletics and academics and the sort of outside influences you Ed well my case is a little bit different than John coming from Toledo and being recruited by a Marie Warmoth and his staff. I always wanted to go to the University of Minnesota was never any doubt in my mind that if I could cut it academically and athletically that's where I wanted to go. I was steeped in the tradition of the Golden Gophers going back to my all-time favorite the late Heisman award winner, the only Heisman award winner Bruce Smith of Faribault Minnesota, but I was worried when I went to the university could I do it academically as well as athletically and I think the thing that spurred me on at the university to begin with his I wanted to be eligible. I want to be able to compete as a sophomore freshman were not eligible then and at the risk of sounding a little bit corny, but I mean this sincerely I didn't want to go back to my parents and my friends Winona who for some reason or other believed in me. I didn't want to go A failure. So I applied myself as best. I possibly could trying to balance Athletics and academics so that I could get the best marks possible despite the demands of football and baseball at the University of Minnesota. And I think it wasn't really until my junior year I said hey, wait a minute. If I'm not careful. I'm going to get through this school. I was William scholar and I didn't I guess disappoint my parents and and and four years later somehow managed to balance things and and earn a degree John. Let's talk about the environment that you were involved with especially your first couple years of Minnesota and how it perhaps is changed in your mind, especially for the black athlete that comes from out of state to a community like the Twin Cities to pursue an athletic career at the University of Minnesota and also an academic career. Well, I think academically I think the opportunity is still there. I think that probably was Little bit easier for the people that came 20 years ago because there's more distractions now, I think there's more freedom there more at their disposal when we came. Basically we came like most black athletes. We came from outside of Minnesota into your community and to your environment, which we didn't know we didn't know anyone and we had to stick together. There was only so many black athletes on campus. So that meant that almost everything we did. We are hooked on the bus on Saturday mornings. We write down the dates as freshman, you know, and we do our shopping we come back we will study together we go to parties together. I think it was a lot of cohesive there's couny cohesiveness there and I think it led to one purpose and that was to to do what we came to do and that was to compete athletically academically. It was there for the ones who want it and I have to At that other group I came in with a 1964. Most of the guys are doing very very well. I can't say that they all graduated but a high percentage of them, but they're all doing well today and I think because we knew exactly why we were here. The subject today when the cheering stops what happens to the student-athlete are especially Collegiate athletes particular minorities being exploited. In today's atmosphere in college sports. Well, I think if you look at it face value and you look at the film we saw this morning. I think that it looks like it's slanted but I think if you look at the overall picture, yes, there's some exportation. I think it varies from place to place. I think that that's part of the system but I think the more more important aspect of it is that an athlete himself I think need to be taken through the process early on in life and we have to start at the early ages. We have to start like fifth grade sixth grade down in there and I think that Dave Casper and I was talking literally and we started talking about how everybody dump on everyone and it all starts in the home. Well, we may have a system that makes it tough for the mother in the home. But then again, I think regardless of however much time she can carve out of they can carve out they still need to share with that kids important of of academics. We need to also have role models that have gone into professional Athletics to go back to Those communities and not detached himself from those communities, but the come back and invest into those communities and by doing that they are creating additional options for athletes in general and I'm speaking of am from Minority perspective. And if you look at it from the overall broad perspective, it may not I'm sure still a problem. But then again it depends on what place where the school is located and what they're all about. The vision of the school is also important in terms of academic requirement in a professional ranks. Yes, I've seen guys who came in who couldn't balance check checkbook. They're guys that couldn't read but for the most part most of them did go to four years of college. I didn't see many guys that was total total disaster cases, but there are some I'm not going to I'm not going to be so nice to say it doesn't exist and it is a problem and it's big enough a problem that everyone should Take some ownership of that some responsibility and do something about it. Paul Gill as director of Athletics University of Minnesota certainly involved in a lot of Revenue producing sports. The big ones football basketball does the term exploitation have negative connotations for you. When you think of 17 18 year old kids who come to the University of Minnesota basically athletic scholarships to produce revenue for the University of Minnesota. How do you answer to that charge of exploitation diversity at the University level? First of all most case, I think it's a lot of baloney. I don't think that they're being exploited you recruit a student athlete to come to the University of Minnesota. For example, the young man is given room board books tuition and fees if we're talking the revenue sportswear, we're talking full scholarships. The young man is given immediately over and above the regular student on campus. He's given counseling help. He's giving all the tutorial He can possibly need or use. At the end of his four years of competition at the University of Minnesota. And this is now the case and many other division one schools. If on our quarter system, for example, he has earned a hundred and fifty eight credits towards his particular baccalaureate degree a c average we can now give and we do give to that student athlete Aid in the fifth year, even though his competition is over with and continuing tutorial help and counseling to keep him on the path. So that eventually gets that degree. Yes football and basketball and hockey all sports, even the non-revenue are demanding but I'm not quite sure why we say we exploited the student-athlete. It was Kevin McHale exploited. Is he making a pretty fair living right now? It was Paul Molitor exploited. We were talking about professional. Those who have gone on to professional athletes. I think the concern is for every Paul Molitor and every Dave Winfield and individuals like that, Kevin McHale. There are hundreds more who struggle who perhaps go through University and play their Sports and then in a sense are discarded once their athletic eligibility is up and how they accepted in the community. And where do they go from? There there the question is where does your responsibility to begin and end and where is the responsibility on the part of a student athlete I know in the recruiting process ever since I've been involved at the University of Minnesota personally involved and witnessing our coaches in the recruiting process particularly when these student athletes come in for the 48-hour official paid visit. I have never heard one of our coaches say to a student athlete we promise you when you are through at the University of Minnesota that if you've competed Completed well, athletically and academically we're going to get you a job. I've heard our people say there are all sorts of opportunities within the University of Minnesota. There are all sorts of opportunities. That's the key word in the business community. That is the Greater Twin Cities metropolitan area. We can help you academically. Athletically we could open some doors for you, but you've got to pay the price to but to promise somebody something that's not right in the recruiting process process. It's to talk about an opportunity and then to try to help him open some doors and then the rest is up to him. Is it too late John in a sense by the the time specifically minority student athlete comes to the university if I'm hearing what you said earlier that if the influences weren't there from the home coaches teachers from early on that by the time they get in that it's almost too late to to in a sense turn the clock back and hit the Books the way that they should with all these other outside influences. Well, I'm going to spend that twofold I guess in regards to what was going on Minnesota Lisa when I was there we lost some guys along the way simply because they did not carry him and we lost some excellent athletes. I mean some outstanding football players and basketball players hockey players as well. But I think if you're in a situation where the athlete is spoon-fed and they help and Propel a loan through the course And there's two sides of that. I think the responsibility to the athlete from the University and I think the athlete is also have to be responsible for himself. And I think anybody in their right mind if you go to school for years and you've been taking scuba diving or whatever the deal is, you should know if you're approaching graduation, so you don't have to be a genius to figure that out. So I think there's a responsibility there. I think the universities. Yes. Yeah, they can imagine keishon some other things but I think you got to look at it from an economic side of and balance that out and say who's getting the best who's getting the bigger bigger the better end of this deal. And I think in terms of when you look at some high-powered football factories or basketball machineries, I think you got to think in terms of what are those students really there for ya. When you a lot of times they say, okay fine academic first when you get there you if you miss some practices. Well, you're not going to have a scholarship. It's just that simple and that's where that's where it goes. So sometimes it takes a little more dedication on your part. Maybe you have to stay up a little bit later study to get things done. But I think you have to understand this thing. A lot of times we make assumptions as we go through life and and we see things and you find out that maybe these assumption aren't true or maybe they are true and then you sort of filter that down and you massage it a little bit and you begin to formulate some ideas that's going to propel you through life. And you do this is just a repetitive process. And sometimes we make the assumption that something is there that isn't there a way we make this assumption because someone gave The something in eighth grade and we got it in the ninth grade that we going to get it a senior in college. And then when you get the pros if you've been spoon-fed then you're in trouble because when you come to the end of the trail when they say okay Marcus all over we don't need your services anymore and reality hits you in the face. You're in trouble. It's midnight. At 12 noon. Let's talk for a bit about proposition 48 very controversial issue. Some say again directed against blacks. It's an unfair situation like to get both of your opinions on it. Is it possible? Could it work? Is it working? First of all from an athletic director standpoint Paul? What are your observations about proposition for? Well, I'll try to explain first of all for the those who do not know what proposition 48 is. It's basically this that if you were to come to again, I'll use the University of Minnesota as an example here to come to the University of Minnesota as a freshman student athlete a prospect coming to play football and have financial aid a full scholarship immediately and be able to practice and compete immediately. You must have had coming out of your senior year in high school a c average in a Core Curriculum of a certain number of mandatory subjects English and Mathematics science natural science social science, and then you must have on the ACT if that Going to be the national test score or program that you took the act and have to have a minimum of a 15 or a minimum of a 600 test score verbal and math on the SAT. Then you can compete immediately and have a diff you do not pass proposition 48 you could still come to the University of Minnesota. You could still have aid but you'd have to sit out a full gear the theory being you're going to Bone up and hold up your skills academically so that you have a better chance to compete stay away from practice. Stay away from the weight training room so that you concentrate on academics. Unfortunately also would not without being able to practice you cannot you also lose a year of eligibility. I think personally as an administrator proposition 48 is good. I know I said to our Region's when it was passed back in 1983. I said I'm a little bit tired of hearing people complain about graduation rates when we put pressure on our coaches when they're out in the recruiting Wars and there is a fragile student athlete out there who we can get into a general College who are open admission. I was after the same young man Michigan's after the same young man, and then we take him and then boy we better do a heck of a job with him academically as far as tutoring and counseling because he doesn't make it we've exploited but meanwhile if we become puritanical about it and philosophical about it and don't take him because we don't know if he can make it through the University of Minnesota and Iowa takes him for example and turns around and this young man kills you on the athletic floor. It's fire the coach. So I like proposition 48 because we're bringing a better prepared student to our campus now. Get a little bit angry with us if we don't working with him him doing his share and we doing our share to touring tutorial Services counseling guidance and so forth then let's give us a better chance and that young man a better chance of getting on a path towards a meaningful degree and being successful John. I don't you know, I think it's all admirable what they're trying to accomplish with proposition 48, but I think that they had rules before and I think that basically it's a matter of feeding your family, you know doing research programs or whatever. It is on the University level are financing the type of projects that you need to and I think it's a matter of values I think is the comes back to the individual again institution or High School coach. What do you want to do? What are your values? What are you a thesaurus? How do you view this problem? What are you concerned about are concerned about the kid you concerned about the program. Are you concerned about your livelihood? Because when it becomes very competitive and we talked about economics here people going to do what they have to do to be successful. And that's just the way it works. And I mean we all involved with the capitalistic program. So I think it's going to be a tough road Paul because you know anytime you have rules you're saying there's false and people going to break those rules. And if everybody is operating on an equal unequal rules and guidance. Well, we got troubles let's get back also to the subject of just how difficult it is for the student-athlete times. You hear stories about an individual taking up to 10 years to get his degree. Is that the exception rather than the rule? Well, I think you're basically I think it depends on the school again. I think it depends on the program. I think that if you think about it, what are you really there for? I mean, yes, you supposed to be there to get an education but you know, the regular students they don't have to go they don't have to practice three hours a day. They don't have to do all these things. I mean they can go to a movie after classes. They want to so you really put a f On it some tough restraints. Okay, and if that's the case why not just lighten his load. Okay fine if he wants to make a deal with the university go there. Well fine give him a few years to do that. So, okay. How about saying you got to take so many credits and over the next ten years. You can graduate if you go under Pros you do what you want to do find you got four five years to come back to finish up your credits. That's one way to do it. And that's one way to make sure that they lease do something in the classroom. And and also the coaches are happy the program's happy everybody's happy. So I think the universities have to decide what business they want to be in the are they going to be in the entertainment business. Are they going to be an academic business if they're going to be an academic business then you better go to the sports clubs. If you going to go to sports clubs and you can have free draft you can do all of the things you want to do and I know it it's tearing at some of the old tradition and some of the values but it's reality and you just can't have it both ways anyway, Look at it you put in the sky in a very tough position pause in a tough position. I mean, if you don't win, you're gonna be the first one knocking on his door and say we've got to get rid of Paul because Paul is not replacing Jean good Atkins, or he haven't got rid of Clem Haskins. So it's a pressure pot and if you don't have a winning team here in the Twin Cities, hey, there's gonna be a lot of complaints all you just pick up the paper this morning and find out that there's supposedly a thousand dollars found in a video tapes into a recruit from Kentucky. Now, we all know that this stuff that's just happen once a year that it goes on a lot cheating is prevalent. And the pressure is there from especially in the coaches. Do you're looking at your revenues you're trying to compete with everyone in the Big Ten and the athlete the sense is caught in the middle because he's he's there to pursue an education in theory at the same time trying to help win basketball or football games for a particular University. Where's the US a solution? I mean what what has to be done equality straight across the board to have this come to a head finally. Well, I have one solution and it's not the total Solution by any means because they're always be people that will break rules. I mean if they had the greatest situation going if they were sitting on the mother lode as far as Talent would be ridiculous for us to cheat and Hakeem and we've got two right here, you know, we don't have to but I don't know how many people in this room are aware for example at most schools and certainly the University of Minnesota at least as far as men's Athletics and suddenly in the introduction. I'm the director of the men's athletic program. Merrily Baker's doing a very fine job with the women's program. They happen to be funded by the state. The men's Intercollegiate Athletics at the University of Minnesota is 100% self-supporting. We do not receive one Senate year taxpaying dollars. Nothing from student fees. No hidden dollars nothing. It's gate receipts from football basketball to a lesser extent hockey because it's a very expensive sport television and radio rights and fundraising to try to take Care of eleven sports with only three falling into the revenue-producing category. We put there for a tremendous amount of pressure on our football coach to fill the Metrodome. We put tremendous pressure on our basketball coach to fill Williams Arena and hockey to fill Mariucci Arena because people are just not going to come it's reality of Life unless there's a winner the twins a couple of years ago were ready to move out of town and now it's hard to get a ticket because they won. Mike the pressures to be self-supporting are tremendous and and John gudykunst like an Earl Bruce at Ohio State could go nine and 29 and to he could graduate all of his athletes, but all of a sudden he drops to five and six for a couple of years and the news media and the fans will be all over you to get rid of them. And I maintain that until such times as Intercollegiate Athletics at least some aspects of your budget. I'm not talking about scholarships and I'm not necessarily talking about coaches salaries, but I'm talking about basic equipment basic operating budget sports information office the equipment room training room and so forth. If unless they start treating I'm talking about Central ministration Athletics like any other department on campus if it has a right to exist in the mission of the University. Then there's a little less pressure on how many fans came to the Metrodome how many fans came to Williams Arena and you take a little less pressure off a coach to maybe go into the gray area. As far as recruiting is concerned and the so-called exploitation or not being in compliance with rules because sooner or later some of these coaches have a tremendous temptation to say if I can only do this for this kid, that's technically a rule violation. I think I can get them and you'll turn the franchise around and fill the house and so some of that is not fair and it starts with Central ministrations. How badly do you want to program? before we take some questions from the audience John like the ask one more question about the future particular again about minority students and the role model situation and the realistic view of trying to accomplish being a total person student-athlete when they're looking on the television screen and seeing the media seeing the final four where each team gets a million dollars and you're looking at the Oklahoma's and Arizona's and people and teams like that saying I want to play for that team. I want to be that person and I'm 10 11 years old and the hell of everything else. Word is it I think it's some point I think regardless of who do it. I think that there's been plenty of successful people have gone through athletic programs without without parents or what foster parents or whatever it is. But when you look back on only thing I could do is relate to my own experiences. I look back there's always someone you know, there was a people in the church or people in the home. There was Community leaders. It was teachers. There's always somebody that that will say something to you that will stick with it and whatever reason that will always come up one at a time that you really needed to propel you to do what you have to do, but I think an answer your question, I think we got to have the role models you got to have them because what happens in community in general? The kid have to have the filling that he can be a doctor that he can be an engineer architect. Whatever it may be he have to have least look at the numbers realistically because statistically if you look at it and see that only one out of 18,000 college kids are going to go on to professional football. I mean that's pretty slim. So if he's looking at it realistically and and and we can help take them through that process the thought process where they can begin to clearly see that they need other options and it's not going to happen to you do that and all the way it's going to happen. You're going to have to squeeze it. You got to squeeze it from the top as well as the bottom in order to end up with results that we would like. Like at this point to open it up for some questions from our audience as time. Thank you Mark. We have our first question from Jack Militello st. Thomas College. Mr. Gill, I was wondering what are the specific policies and programs that you have available for proposition 48 athletes. What do you actually do in terms of counseling and development for them both in the personal level and the academic level? We we have a full counseling staff that will sit down with the student athlete and usually the proposition 48 student athlete will go into General college and they will map out a number of remedial type courses for them to be able to hone their skills so that they can move on to the next level by the time they get to be sophomores and then we try to map out literally an academic game plan to start from point A so that we can get them to years from now when General college now is no longer a four-year program so that they can move into a meaningful program in CLA or College of Education or where their abilities their talents can take them in the best possible direction for them and then to give them study skills and to give them tutorial help all along the way. Yes question here for Paul Gill. Yes. Mr. Gil, are are the men's athletic programs in other division one schools and specifically in other big ten schools self-sustaining as it is at the University of Minnesota and other words are their revenue Sports expected to sustain their programs or are they funded in other ways in most cases in the Big Ten other than Northwestern a private school. Most of them are self-supporting and where I'm fortunate at the University of Minnesota the back in the mid-70s when women's Intercollegiate Athletics was really coming on strong and having a right to exist morally legally. The university said when they took a look at the men's program, we can't get blood out of a turnip Paul Gill is just starting to get out of a red a deficit that I inherited when I became the director, they went to the legislature and it was just the right kind of timing the emphasis and they receive funding for women's Intercollegiate Athletics, but at Iowa the, Michigan Highest states where the men's director is in charge of both. Yes, they're having to produce through their football basketball and their fundraising and television share the wealth plan we have in the Big Ten having to sustain both programs and I might add that most of the directors that I talked to with their projections long-range are going to be in the proverbial tank five years down the road unless they receive some help like other departments on campus through. Oh 100 type fun State funds. It's A better better situation than the other schools. The other schools don't seem to have the competition in the marketplace at the University of Minnesota does with the Minnesota Vikings the Minnesota Twins, the Minnesota North Stars the Minnesota Strikers and now the Minnesota Timberwolves and it is a very competitive marketplace with facilities that are so out obsolete outmoded that frankly as an aside. I'll tell you I'm frightened to death of trying to have Clem Haskins or whoever is our basketball coach trying to compete at Williams Arena when that edifice is built downtown by Marvel fans in and Harvey Ratner and the pros come in and the gate receipts go down again as the novelty of now seeing the pros and the news media spreading more and more information to the public about another professional team. Well, you just lost two assistant bass basketball coaches yesterday and one of them cited recruiting Frustrations want to bang my head against the wall anymore from a competitive standpoint. I mean, it's taken a toll even on your coaching staff. We long before we had this NCAA problem with our basketball program. And naturally when you're out after the so-called Blue Chip athlete who can take claim Haskins program to the next level because they were competitive even in a losing season. But even before we had that problem that ends up with negative recruiting against your program to try to attract that exceptionally talented student athlete we had problems because of Williams Arena as people say it's wonderful exciting when Indiana comes into town and Iowa comes into town and it's packed and there's enthusiasm but you be the coach and you take a kid into that place when it's empty and it's the same thing that existed with Memorial Stadium that has now been condemned. Memorial stadium has now been condemned. Nobody can use it even run up and down the steps for physical fitness had we tried to stay at Memorial Stadium with that Metrodome downtown. It would killed us question down here Miriam. Well our for the Minneapolis Foundation. We have quite a few young women athletes here in the audience, and we've been concentrating primarily on male athletes and while I know your director of the men's program Paul, I wonder if you could make some comments in general about the situation with the women athletes at the University whether the experiences are similar and the support systems are there. Thank you. The the support systems are very definitely there the University of Minnesota. I you know merrily Baker might argue that she'd like to her budget and we all would to be greater. I think their budget is roughly three point three million dollars, but they do not have football. They do not have hockey the expensive sports to budget for and and to operate they have a very competitive program. They have the same tutorial help in counseling because in that one area were under the same umbrella and it's a well-run program, but they're starting to run into some of the same problems. That men's Intercollegiate Athletics is running into recruiting to try to get some of the better student athletes or prospects are having to recruit further and further away from Minnesota. They try to do the best they can with the best athletes in Minnesota. That's your first goal. But the minute you start recruiting further and further away from home the expenses, right? And it's more difficult to recruit but they do have a fine program. Incidentally the women's women's GPA grade point average for winter quarter was a 2.99 for their overall may have ten Sports and our Levin sport program because we separate cross-country and call it separate from track and field the men's through all of our efforts now has a two point six six that's up from a couple years ago a couple years ago and what John mentioned something before about you know, the length of time to graduate, I think it's important for people to know this we have in the Big Ten a continual progression rule academically, for example, as a freshman to be able to compete if you pass proposition 48 you have Aid and you can compete immediately after your freshman year. You must have average at least 12 credits a quarter. You cannot drop below 12 credits or you're an eligible. So at the end of your freshman you have to have passed 36 credit hours at the end of your South. Here it would have the 77 then it's a hundred and Seventeen so you can see by the time you get through your senior year. It's pretty easy even with you know, 12 or 13 credits 1/4, which is that, you know, the heavier load is around 15. You would be at that 158 mark that I talked about for 8 in the fifth year and John would be interested in this for professionals. Let's say a young man after his senior year fall Football goes to the pros which he wants to try out he signs a contract but after one year, he hasn't made it even though he signed a pro contract he comes back to the University of Minnesota. He had close to a hundred and fifty eight credits. He is no longer on a professional contract. We can give him Aid in the sixth year for what we would call V your Aid. So we're going to try to help the professional who didn't make it but we can't extend that on forever and ever. Tremendous that's it. That's a new development that I thought might be of interest. There's a young man of the question. Yes, sir. Okay, I'm Jim Garrett from st. Paul Central. I'm a student athlete and I like to ask. Mr. Gill two questions. How do you feel that? You're not exploiting your student athletes when they go to your school and in turn for scholarship, they play football and they go through team regiment practice and all that and they perform and make a lot of revenue for the school and then regardless of that you have the right to cut them loose or whatever. Let's say in the midst Lee case before they even have been found guilty of anything. How do you feel that? You're not exploiting athletes? And also I'd like to know what is the criteria for not allowing recruits to receive money or whatever with all the money that they make for Revenue in the school. What? Is the meaning behind the NCAA not allowing recruits to receive any extra money or whatever answer the or try to anyway the last part of your question first. I don't know how many times I've been at the University almost 17 years. So I've been to 16 NCAA conventions and it almost every convention. It's brought up. Why shouldn't we be able to be on room board books tuition and fees give the student athletes $50 a month for spending money and Necessities or is it $75 or is it a hundred dollars and nobody can ever sort of agree on what is the magic figure and should it just be for the revenue Sports and forget about the non-revenue sports again the kids in gymnastics or track or tennis because they don't bring in any Revenue. We're not going to give them anything. But if we do, what is the magic number and how much of a budgetary consideration is this? You're trying again to balance the budget and it gets kicked around and kicked around every time I go to an NCAA convention. And even when the Big Ten has voted for some kind of a monthly stipend Beyond room board books tuition and fee for the student-athlete. It is voted down at the Big Ten level for budgetary reasons or because they say I just going to give it for football and basketball or at Minnesota because hockey is a revenue sport. Should they also receive something and what is that dollar amount? And even if you gave them $50 or $100 would that curtail cheating somebody else from the alumni some fans and rabid fan giving kids money or coach under the table? First part I think I tried to answer before I don't feel it's optional for the young man in the first place. He can go to any number of schools. And if he wants to receive room board books tuition and fees he's having his education taken care of. He's having the tutorial help that I talked about before he's having the counseling help. He's having equipment. He's having traveled. He's having a chance. Maybe it is one in 18,000 but he's having a chance if he has that kind of talent for years later or five years later to have a chance to go on into the professional ranks and make a tremendous amount of money because he had an opportunity at the school athletically was your question specifically about Mitch Lee the you feel that Mitch Ali and George Williams and Kevin Smith were exploited in a sense by the university and found guilty before their trial. Is that your sense of when you when you use the term exploitation? like notches are Paul you're not. Well, I think that the university had no choice as far as certainly breaking team rules and and code of conduct as far as the three young men in the Madison incident that that you're referring to. I think that after the case was over within the young men were acquitted had they come back to the University of Minnesota and gone through any sort of disciplinary committee hearings, like any other student be they a student athlete or non student athlete and if they still then met the academic requirements for eligibility, they probably could have come back to the University of Minnesota and been a part of the basketball program. Well, I think that I think what he's really trying to say here is that the statement was made right away without the man having any due process that he never play for the University anymore by the president of the University. I think that's what he's referring to. Next question here. Hi, my name is Winston McDowell and I'm a graduate student in public affairs and history at the University of Minnesota. I have a question to Paul Gill about this question about exploitation, which you got somewhat Disturbed over but in light of the low graduation rates among student athletes at the University of Minnesota, for example, would you not argue that the line between academics and Athletics has been blurred and how do you recall? How do you correct that distinction? Well, I think this it's a I think as far as the graduation rates of our student athletes at the University of Minnesota. It's right in line with the graduation rate of the rest of the student body at the University of Minnesota. I did some research on that and the graduation rates for the student body in general is around 40% that and they completed in six years among athletes. I believe from 1978 to 1983 is only nine percent. Now that is way off that that was not a fair indictment. For example of Jim Dutcher when we went back and research some of the athletes that they were talking about who had gone on to other schools who are transferred and get their degrees elsewhere or they got it in as John said seven years or eight years or trans. I said transfer to other schools Jim Duchess graduation rate was closer to 45 percent, but the damage was done by the news media when they came out with that first report, and another thing that is not fair in athletics that Put into the computer and should not put in the computer are the Kevin McHale's are the Dave Winfield's are the Randy Brewer who was an academic all-conference Medal winner who has 30 credits to go and I don't know if he's ever going to come back with the kind of money. He's making with the Milwaukee Bucks and all the perfect young people that have gone pro in hockey the Neil bratton's and I could go on and on that's not fair to the University of Minnesota's say that's part of your graduation rate study. I guess. I'm a little unclear. I don't want to hog all this time, but I'm unclear wise and fair because they're initially recruited like any other student and the purpose is to graduate. So regardless of what they do, they should still be factored in I don't know. I don't come exceed I would disagree with you on that because that is not if you're putting it at that's the fault of the athletic department or the University of Minnesota. I cannot go you think I can tell it Kevin McHale. Kevin you better come back here and get your degree. Well Paul, I think that you know based on the people that I was involved with. I there's awful lot of people that need two or three credits to graduate. And they don't bother to go back. Once they reach the drain once the dream is complete and they're drafted in their pros and get the contract. They don't feel the need to do that and I can name several people of the years that I was at the University that graduation was Within Reach So if they didn't accomplish it that meant that it wasn't their first priority. So but then again there I understand your question but to sort of balance it here. There is some reality in this those statements that there are some statistics and because it's at istic scan being whatever you want to me. So the question is, how are you interpreting those statistics? I want to take another question. I also want to get a reaction from Fred McNeill played for the Minnesota Vikings and someone to address the question of Role Models Fred with young people who are here in the audience today. But first, let's go to this gentleman right here directed direct this question to dr. Williams. I read recently were Governor or a Nebraska recently vetoed a bill which would allow the university to pay their athletes as state employees. The article also mentioned that for other big eight states were considering that I wondered if you'd heard about it. And and what's your reaction? Well, I never heard about that but it doesn't surprise me. I think is Big Business out of Nebraska. I can remember the years when I was commuting out to LA and I was coming during the winter was coming to Minnesota from California through Nebraska and the roads were everyone was talking about the road constructions and so on and so forth and they say one thing can be assured the governor's guaranteed Everybody by opening day finish or not. The rows will be open so that that sort of really tell you the importance of football and economy in the state of Nebraska. But then again some of those other trip driving out through Oklahoma and some of those places and you stop in and one of these friendly gas stations and you say what kind of team you're going to have this year and the guys say, well the best money would buy it also, So, I mean I think that that sort of encapsulate the whole program Fred McNeill if you could use microphone available, he got one Fred is sort of a the modern-day black athlete someone who went to UCLA went on the University of Minnesota. Now an attorney talked about the difficulties the obstacles that you had overcome and what advice would you have for young people today? As far as who look to the running backs of today and say I want to be you know, the next Bo Jackson or I want to be the next dr. J or someone what kind of advice would you have? First of all, I feel kind of strange being a modern-day black athlete remodeling is remodeled. I don't know I guess if I look at my particular experience coming through University of UCLA. Not California and playing football for the Vikings for 12 years and starting law school. I guess in my seventh year playing playing football. I guess looking back. I remember when I first went to UCLA. I started meeting kids who went to Pacific Palisades High School and those kids was a little bit better school language. I went to Ballpark High School, which was a nice cool. But we didn't have the money that they had in Pacific Palisades or we didn't have something that they had out there because these kids had experience and education and I didn't hand they had experience in writing experience in mathematics with learning calculus in high school. And I found it in the starting UCLA. I was a little bit handicapped in the sense that I didn't have those skills. So I don't know what that really means. I suppose that it may indicate the need to improve the whole educational system to balance it out so that I would want to say sort of black students as much as I would say probably kids who are attending schools that don't have the kind of funds and programs to prepare them for college. It's not necessarily black or poor whites are poor Mexicans anybody in terms of the role model question. I suppose it's important for a black child myself having been a black child and myself now being a black man a modern-day black athlete. It's important for me to be able to look at at someone and see that they may have been in the same circumstance that I am or once was and to see that they may have had some of the same educational handicaps that I may have had our someone else may have and to see that they have taken the initiative and overcome those kind of things or had someone to inspire them to try to overcome those kinds of handicaps. So I think a role model is very important a role model. Obviously by definition is a person who who does something ahead of you and shows you that you can do that kind of thing on how to go about doing it. And obviously I had some role models from a sports perspective in terms of being lawyers and Alan Page and and people who preceded me and my brothers matter of fact, I don't wanna leave him out. He also played football and is now the attorney in California, but a role models are important probably more importantly is is someone to inspire you to take advantage of those role models and and fortunately I had mentors at my English teacher back in high school. Called me one day seventh year while I was playing pro football and said that bread let's go. It's time to start law school. And I guess just the point being there. Is that kind of addressing an overall problem in terms of students are focusing on Athletics is that they've also got to learn to focus and be inspired to to take advantage of the educational opportunities. I'll say one more thing and give the mic up looking at Athletics. I kind of an image of Bear Bryant in the locker room and given that fiery speech go out there and let's win the game and Athletics almost seems like it. It doesn't really give you incentive to be self-motivated. and in my experience at UCLA I found that just like Paul Paul said in his in his junior year. He started waking up as a hey I got to do something to get out of here. Well, it was my junior year end of my sophomore year when I started someone said Fred, what's your major? And I said major degree. It was at that time that I started becoming aware and started to come out of the cloud or fog or whatever. It may be to realize that that I had to declare a major and had to focus on graduating in two years, so I wasn't going to and I think this one problem that I guess I'm trying to indicate is that a sports you have a motivator you have a coach has a motivator and kids need to be to be inspired to move from that that position of not feeling like they have to motivate themselves not feeling like they have to take advantage of the opportunities not feeling like somebody else is going to do it for them. They have to move out of that. Responsive position of being reactive and move into the position of being proactive looking out and seeing what is there what is not there and asking why it's not there seeing what's there and going out and taking advantage of it. Good point being I'm motivated themselves. Thank you very much Fred McNeill. Yes. My name is Julian Jackson. And as we're talking about making some changes within the system and writing some wrongs certainly the give it your best shot program is not a cure-all but it offers a process for assisting student-athletes and better preparing themselves for the real world and that we try to get them to buy into using their athletic abilities as a means to an end IE education Etc. So my question for all of you on the panel today is and then why is it so difficult or why has it been so difficult you think for us to Garner funding as well as other kinds of support for this program? John you want to start I think base and I think people recognize that there's a problem. I don't think that their only concern with it because his system is the way it's work. We want to you know, we're very good at dumping. You know, I'm going to say it's Paul responsibility because he's athletic director. He's on says to meet a responsibility because you know, the other one - the whole deal and I myself have to look at myself as individual and say what can I do and only thing I can do is deal with people. I see it as a people problem not necessarily institutional problem and not necessarily as a social problem, but it's a people problem in the sense. That each person was responsible for the their own destiny. And I think along with a little help we can help them clearly see the means to the end and know that they have to have other options other than Athletics I think in the His responsibility. We're not going to eliminate the final four. We're still going to be cheering for Oklahoma against Duke and and watching Kansas in the final four and we're going to be cheering and in wonderment of the athletic talent, but I'd like to see more of the network doing especially in certainly at a local level supplementing the final four games. For instance with the stories on the Sean Elliot's of Arizona and showing them in a different light away from the basketball court. What an average day is like as a student-athlete particular and put that in its proper perspective, especially when you have hundreds of thousands of people millions of people watching that particular game and the way to reach young people in particular to show that there's life not only after sports but during Sports is to have the media certainly do a better job. I think of showing individuals who are looked looked up upon looked up to youngsters are look up to him to show him in a different light in a positive light away just from academics. I don't know how to answer your question about the funding because I honestly don't know that much. About the background on it. I have nothing to add we have time for one more. That's the program Believe. We'd like to thank our panelists today. Dr. John Williams former University All-American and professional football player Now dentist in Minneapolis. Paul Gill director of men's Intercollegiate Athletics at the University of Minnesota and Mark Rosen of WCCO television from most challenging discussion. Thank you our audience for being with us today. Have a good day.