Hi, this is Gigi Preston. And this is portfolio. If the sports Pages were all scores and personalities. They might be easier to read but there are times when it takes a specialist to make sense of what's written some of the background in labor law on antitrust law in contract law while I don't know diddly about any of those areas myself. So I brought in someone who knows a lot is my guess this afternoon. His name is John we start he's a specialist in sports Florida professor at the Duke University School of Law in North Carolina is also an outspoken critic of the College Board system in this country for the next hour John we start will be with us to answer your questions at 227 6007 6000 hurons portfolio.Turn Wii starter in a bachelor's degree at Illinois Wesleyan University back before it became primarily known as the alma mater of Jack sikma. He went on to the Duke University School of Law. We're headed the journal and received is JD in 1968 after a year in private practice he returned to do to teach and he's been there ever since except for the occasional appointment as a visiting Professor. He co-wrote a book called The Law of sports and was the executive producer of a public television series about issues in college sports called fair game. Now I can add to that curriculum vitae. I guessed on sportfolio here on ksjn 1330. It's nice to have you on with us today.Kg on an afternoon with 5 degrees and snow falling a job, please tell us that Durham weather for the afternoon. Plate of ACC basketball games this afternoon. So while people are getting ready to spend the afternoon huddled around their radios and televisions watching the various team. So hopefully he'll be a lot of them will be watching the Duke Blue Devils take on the Demon Deacons at Wake Forest. No contest. No contest Jon a lot of people in your area. Saw the UNC Duke basketball game at this last week. Victorious battle at the dean dome in Chapel Hill. So this contest this afternoon against should be one of the occasion for some relaxation by the Blue Devil by the snap that pussy game Big Ten losing streak tonight against Ohio State at Williams Arena. A John that we have you here as a as a lawyer because of your work in sports law tell me how I feel the winds up getting into a field like that. What was there such a field of sports law when you were a law student. One of the few interesting questions as whether there is a clearly defined field in that area. Now as far as law schools are concerned. I mean clearly there are people who spend most of the time in practice in that area night every year yet Perhaps what 50 or 60 letters from her perspective law students asking where they can go to what law school should go to two major sport slide. My advice is that is probably a bad idea to focus that nearly at the law school level that that was really needed is a background in the very basic subjects of antitrust in labor in contracts and so on so that that that it's it's it's not a field that one prepares for war in the sense of specialization and employment opportunities are are really rather hard to to come by and you can't come out of law school and be a sure that you're going to be able to work in the the sports area. But over the last 15 years in terms of what goes on in practice is clearly in That's developed some separate definition and I appreciate your comment earlier about the extent to which sports Pages receive stories and give attention to stories that have a legal angle. My own view is to hope that that doesn't continue. I die. I hope that we're in a period in which we have an unusual level of legal activity might my own view. Is that It ultimately he tracks from the underlined athletic events and other week. We had achieved the situation in professional football and professional basketball word legal issues were starting to filter into the background. Unfortunately, unfortunately that's changed in the last few months because of the controversies involving free agency. But again, my hope is that a long-term will have a little bit better balance between the athletic events in and what goes on on the legal side in law school student like you get to get involved in the sports field. A couple of ingredients one. It's just a personal interest. Then I have not not only in sports has an activity. I did play basketball and would have to admit you for all of your listeners that my talents are really quite modest in that regard to that is not any truly noted. Society devoted just a considerable amount of tension attention to sports activities and I find it interesting to try to figure out what the events are that prompted interest and then how did interest is sustained and and sure enough as my legal career was developing. It was true that those organizational issues began to take on legal over town and my teaching background is in the area of contracts and labor law and I have a considerable interest in the antitrust. And now teaches infanta trust seminar so that the fit was really quite close and it is all about that. There was a real demand a real need beginning about 15 years ago for some more neutral commentary on what was going on in the sports area that do you actually teacher an upper-level course at Duke that is specifically related to sports largest Sports case to just get involved in your other courses. Where's the course and it's this is us again goes to the my view of how the field oughta be to find so many law students and young lawyers who expressed an interest in there yet the sports. Are you have an interest in becoming agents that is people who represent athlete obviously, there is a need for well-trained sport agents in Hindi. I would do that then area where I think we need to do a lot better as a society in it terms of ensuring that the people are well-equipped in that field, but my interest really has a different angle from that until I frequently have discussions with students and young lawyers about how they're going something different from from my course, of course, I teach has the title of Athletics in the legal process. And essentially it's an inquiry into how this social and economic phenomenon that we call Athletics at both the professional and amateur level how it interacts with the legal system both from a historical perspective and then more importantly in terms of what happens today in in Eagle Dr. Saux the end of the course in like the course in rolls anywhere from 40 to the times I've had as many as 80 or 85 law students in the head by the end of the course. We've been through all of the basic materials in the sports area, but the objective is not to increase the population of sports agents that we that we find in this country. We start professor at the Duke University School of Law in North Carolina is our guest this afternoon here on sportfolio on ksjn questions about sports Laurel, whatever you feel like coming to answer it. But if you want to ask a question go ahead phone number is 227-6000 and we'll get you through with John we start here this afternoon to 276 thousand, by the way. I called they said you're a long. Of silence is cuz I'm blowing my nose. I don't really want to do it on the year. So just in case 227 6001 must enunciate careful eat without very much breath to enunciate is our phone number here on Portfolio John I'm going to jump right into a specific case. I'm going to try to set this up right now after I flub it up. You can correct mistakes. I make it then talk about it sometime this week. We should get a ruling from a federal district court judge in Minneapolis about the case of the National Football League Players Association against the NFL and acting as a different name like animal. What happened as listeners probably know what precipitated the NFL player Strike last fall was the expiration of a basic labor agreement between the players and the T Motors. The players went back to work without a new agreement going into place there there they've been working without a master labor agreement the player say that as a result the terms of the old agreement can no longer be enforced because they no longer be at been agreed to and because they're in violation of antitrust laws as I sat through the hearing in the case of a couple of weeks ago in Minneapolis. My understanding was the owner point of view was that the old agreement should remain in effect until a new agreement is negotiated between the two parties at issue is the free agency status for NFL players most NFL contract expire on February 1st. The judge in the case David Doty is promised to have a decision by the 1st of February for the players with know about their free agency status. If you could join me if you can talk about that case a little bit the Prospector free agency for football players as a result of this and some of the issues underlying in the case. The case is really quite important is another case that that has a very similar issue involving the the NBA in the NBA Players Association is going on in in Newark and a side issue is as you stated them and that is does the old system a player restraints that arose from the last collective bargaining agreement in the NFL. Does it continue to endure and limit player movement after that collective bargaining agreement has expired many terms in a collective bargaining agreement will in fact survive the operation of the agreement. And the reason for that though, the legal policy reason behind that rule is simply to provide labor stability that you wouldn't want the whole arbitration system to come to an end at the date that the bargaining agreement expired and you wouldn't want the weight scale to go back to the minimum wage at the day of the collective bargaining agreement expired and that's really the the argument that the owners are making this a while. Collective bargaining agreement in order to encourage collective bargaining this term like many other terms like to continue make it very clear that I think it's a highly debatable point on each side. That is the answer is is is not absolutely clear and it's exactly the sort of controversy for which we need a court to resolve it that we need some authority to resolve. I do have my own view on what are to be the predominant policy and and and let me just say that in and that is that I believe that it has to be correct that there is a point in time at which the old collective bargaining agreement comes to an end. This is a case where in 1982 The Players Association agreed to this contract and the other is the key feature. Is that once The player association agreed to this to both the draft system and then to the the restrain on player Mobility between existing clubs. Once the union agreed to that in 1982 the back of the Union agreement immunized those restraints from antitrust attack another word Union kinetic and agreed to two basic contract elements. That would be not just in in sports in another field to Union can agree to terms. It would be in violation of antitrust law as long as it's negotiated in a collective bargaining setting. That's a real key point and end it again. You stated really very well. These are terms or or there could be a term. For example. I think this is probably true of the existing NFL draft light up with calls from the NFL owners in just a second. But I believe it is true that the existing NFL draft. My opinion is it would probably violates antitrust laws, but for the waiver exemption that comes into play because the union agreed to it in collective bargaining my view of the issue in the the case going on in Minneapolis. Now is that since they the legal immunity that attaches to the draft system in the player restraint is purely the product of the parties consent including the consent of the Union then once that consent is clearly withdrawn and unmistakably withdrawn, then the immunity off the end because the whole legal theory behind the antitrust exemption That we value we value the process of collective bargaining and things arrived at in collective bargaining in a consensual way. We we value that process of consent at a higher order than the limitations we find any antitrust law. Okay, but here we have a situation which the NFL players Association has made absolutely clear that they're no longer consenting to the old draft system in the restraint the question again before the Court gives life is a close one that on the one one hand. There's a desire for stability and and labor peace and so on and that's a guess that that you constantly encourage negotiation and the continuation of old terms, but I believe on on these player restraints that would otherwise violates antitrust laws that they really should be treated differently. And that's the union does have the right to withdraw his consent and then let me just ate why I know this is a fairly calm. I think it's really quite important. The owners are correct that the owners are correct. X continuous then lead the players really have been put in a very disadvantageous position where they have to use their bargaining chips their bargaining power the bargaining table to bargain down a provision that would otherwise be illegal and that just drives me is wrong clearing the table of think it would otherwise violates, but that's essentially the issue that's going to be decided this week. And then I seem to be the basis of the of the legal defense or offense, I guess in this case of the Players Association attorney saying we have to be able to get out of this at some point. We made this deal it look good. Then it doesn't look good that we want out. And it was clearly made with the understanding that it was a 5 years duration. That's how ever long it would take the parties to reach another agreement. And then again, I want to make it clear that there's a lot of editorializing on my part in that that answer in and the courts got a much more difficult task because it's got a way some pretty strong labor policies on on the other side know what would happen to some of the other elements of the contract some of the things that would not violate antitrust laws things like pension benefits to the salary scale for years of service to those also be thrown out as a result of this or with those remain in effect until a new basic agreement was negotiated. I believe that they are different. I believe they have a different status and that they would continue and the reason they have a different status is that there is no inherent field legality in the term. Does Noah like it's being protected by the fact that they were once in a collective bargaining agreement. So another words of players could really gain an upper hand of the bargaining table if this would work out as it conceivably. Actually my view that that what we are talking about his lot of newspapers have written. Animals articles about the issues any number of healthy trees have gone to their demise over the publishing on this question. But essentially it comes down to a question of who's going to have the bargain Advantage at the bargaining table are the players going to have to bargain the owners down from the pre-existing restraint or are the bargaining chips going to be slid across the table by the court and put on your side with a player say, okay. We are back to point zero as far as play restraints are concerned in you the owners have to give us something to get us back up to the point where we agree to a draft and that's exactly these just an economic issue of who's going to have the economic Advantage now before we get to the phones and get some Worcester calls for you John we start let me just post one final question about the NFL situation here if players were to have the right to free agency through a legal decision that doesn't necessarily mean that any team would have to sign any of them doesn't well, I tell you what would happen if the if the Legal decisions favorable to the players and indeed. I think either way it comes out the issues going to be resolved at the bargaining table. It. It may not be a hundred percent certainty but it's it's up there above 90% certainty that each side has an interest in getting this thing settled one way or the other and that it would occur at the at the bargaining table. Now if the owners imagine a case in which the players were declared to be free agents and the owners refuse to bid on them. We would all those the legal background a little bit different we would be fairly close to the question that's presently coming up in baseball and that is whether what's the legal status where a group of owners get together by means that are yet uncertain as a matter of evidence and and refuse to engage in competitive what we know in the popular press is collusion. Certainly, if there was any communication between the owners that indicated that they were withholding their their bidding. Then there would be a serious antitrust problem. Now, I personally think we will never get anywhere near that stage because again, each side has a great deal of interest in and getting back to a point of some economic stability on the contract question. I think we'll settle it at the bargaining table minutes after 12 noon here on ksjn 1330. You're letting this portfolio MJG pressed into my guess this afternoon is John we start specialist in sports law and a professor at the Duke University School of Law. Our phone number is 227-6012. Scam caller standing by will be happy to answer your sports law questions this afternoon as well to 276 thousand that phone number here wants portfolio. High School sports and liability yesterday the papers reported 37% of all high school football players injuries at put them out of the game. Where do you see the direction of sports with writing liability insurance going for high schools are more high schools dropping Irish Sports. And is there a different versus a public high schools in a pro field goal in their willingness to take on a high risk that your question touches on a really very important issue that has been gaining attention over the last several years. There are some state in which sports and ended varies between sports and Sports in particular have been greatly affected to the point of virtual Extinction as a result of his first school districts are found liable for injuries, and then their insurance premiums go up and they can't afford the insurance premium. So they cut back on the particular activity, California. It has a very active court system in in this one would shift toward recoveries recovery personal injury have historically been quite High California has gone through. In which it has been a severe cut back in high school athletic events because of the liability issue. My own view is that we're in a transition. That that's what's going to happen is we're going to see much more effective Insurance schemes developed number one so that the cost of injuries are going to be spread more widely and and hens go down. There's also going to be much more careful careful supervision of the sports activity and you can already see that happen. You can see cautionary warnings coming out of coaches association's and so on advocating against a types of activities that that's the clearest example is Spearing in in football where people used to be taught to to put their helmet between their opponents numbers and that is a really big Dangerous maneuver and end now pretty consistently is advised against we're going to see more and more of that and ultimately though ultimately though I think that there is going to be some reduction in sports activities and it's going to be made clear that that that that more and more of the responsibility for injury is going to fall on the participant now as between parochial and public schools and I think we can probably immediately see what what the dynamic is that money is much more difficult to come by in a profile schools than it is in the public schools on the other hand issues of financial expenditures tend to be in the public Arena and in the public schools and therefore an issue like this like a huge insurance premium is it is likely to be debated publicly where it's not in the procure schools might my own view is that we're going to start seeing a state legislator. Fairly quickly and coming up with some rules that will have the effect of of keeping down liability insurance and hopefully at least in the public schools. I assume it also benefit the parochial schools, but at least in the public schools should have the effect of providing or or settling some of the great uncertainty that exist at the present time here on ksjn 13th, Preston John. We start our guest the topic Sports law and the color standing by a prestigious South Minneapolis. Hi Gary. Thanks for waiting to use the what appears to be some great inconsistencies and how the NCAA puts out some of their rulings and if it is real do you first see some of this getting better in the near future? Let me begin to respond by that to that bite by a little bit of a disclaimer in and that is that. How's the dancer going to hear against and have a little bit more editorial? Content then then then might be true and some other cases. I really do think the NCAA has two very seriously. Look at its internal structure. I think there's a pretty good reason pretty good explanation as to why so many of the ruling to the NCAA appear to be either Petty or contradictory or otherwise incomplete and that is an end. Some of the shows are going to think this is harsh. But my view is that is because the NCAA in many of its functions essentially operates as an economic cartel that it's it's economic rule in college sports is the frequently to number one keep down costs to the participating schools to control costs. And then the evidence of that in my mind is the fact that the NCAA Zone committees have discovered that the typical athletic scholarship does not cover. The cost of education for the athlete that it falls short of the actual cost of Education to the athlete buy some $1,400 despite that it is even though we know that there are NCAA athletes who who are running a significant economic hardship. There hasn't been any I would say significant response from the organization itself in why not as well. The reason is again, but there's this undercurrent that the NCAA has a cost Control Function and unfortunately in its structure the NCAA tends to listen to officials that come from see a police department where the budgetary department and what's not included in the NCAA structure is a mechanism for listening very carefully to what educator say or to listen to what the athletes in SLC will that change in the future. I think what we're going to see for the short-term is two things a lot more re-examination of college sports by schools and If I were to venture my opinion, I would say I that we're not going to see much radical change in the short-term. The college athletics is tremendously valuable. Bothan in terms of his financial Return of the attention. That's brought to the participating schools. And I don't see the school's having much incentive to give that up that that economic incentive though is all for the thing that that's over the years put such incredible downward pressure on academic standards that in my view that said whatever short-term re-examination but there won't be any fundamental change in a few years. We'll see academic Scandal creeping back into the newspaper. So I'm not terribly optimistic for the short-term and I think ultimately if there is any change is going to have to come from somebody outside the NCAA and frankly. I mean it would seem that the status quo is working awfully well for an awful lot of people it's working well for the most part for the schools involved that the attention of the revenue seem to outweigh the AIDS are the negatives of come up working. Well, certainly Fan judging by attendance and television ring people seem happy with the present system of moral approach to try and change things rather than actually having to fix problems. And that's why you can't listen to the debate that the credit of the NCAA. It really has been trying to encourage that debate in the last couple of that debate is it talks about curing or or addressing a lot of the symptoms and not going to the concert of the problems in in college sports, for example, a lot of discussion of ending freshman eligibility. And and I look at that is a problem. But if all you do is make freshman in else, but you haven't been really change that the fundamental economics of Cali sports or the tremendous infusion of money into some extent intrusion from broadcasting you haven't you haven't raised admission standards. Indeed in my view, it's quite possible that eliminating freshman eligibility would have the effect of lowering admission standards that you would remove all of the incentives for complying with proposition 48. I think I think you're absolutely correct that for for the top. 40 teams and actually for many more than that, but for the top 40 team, I don't believe that they feel it is a great deal that's wrong and certainly economically in the the prison system in college for our discussion of college sports will continue through the hour with John we start and get in some other topics of sports laws. Well antitrust contract labor law things along those lines. It's 12:30 here on ksjn 1330 MJG Preston and your listing is portfolio by Guess John we started to professor at the Duke University School of Law in Durham, North Carolina. Take your questions for John at 227-6002. 276 thousand our phone number here on sportfolio ksjn 1330 brings you the Democratic presidential candidates in debate tomorrow afternoon at two this live broadcast from the University of New Hampshire in Durham will be moderated by NBC news commentator. John Chancellor many Democratic presidential candidates have seen their campaign hopes Sprout Wings in New Hampshire While others have seen their campaigns fall there. You can listen in as the stage is set for the Democrats tomorrow afternoon at 2 only here on ksjn 1330. John's Chancellor. Manor was my hero when I was a kid. We used to have fights at the dinner table over him as back in the Watergate era, you know, my dad wasn't real crazy about all those liberal media types my mom and I had to defend John chance. That's what that's another program. I think it's another Flower by itself right there to 276 thousands are phone number here on portfolio with John. We starts 5 degrees and snowing in the Twin Cities forecast says it's going to get up to 20. I don't think it's going to make it at this rate. But the three to six inches of snow expected when it's all said and done by sometime later tonight to 276 thousand or phone number. Let's go back to the phones with John we start and we'll go to Saint Paul High Gym. Hello question about two different sports for relating to the football players strike. This is exactly in the area of law. But I mean it relates to it. Since football does not have the antitrust exemption. Why is it that the plight the owners rather as the players have characterised them have this sort of Plantation owner mentality or is this just a yacht A something that the union is is putting out and also a white was it that it seems that some of the people who would have most benefited from free agency. Danny White comes to mind immediately. I were breaking the solidarity publicly in does say that the young players should go back and then also I wondered about what your guests comments would be about the prospects of some of these cases that are threatened against hockey players for Rob assault. What is the possibility that some of those are going to be successfully prosecuted? Thank you Jimmy Ray. start having them in any order feel like play you got the source of one of the great controversies about prosecution hockey players before its case from a few years ago. But what goes on in the in the NFL that the quick outline of what's perceived to be again? It's like I see it as an economic Dynamic within the within the NFL and it is correct that the NFL both in this player relations. And in terms of relationships between clubs. It's fully subject to the to the antitrust laws and that's not true with respect the baseball baseball has an exemption the only sport but it does and that was that was granted directly by the US Supreme Court that against your constant efforts to get it repealed in Congress, but I suspect that when push comes to shove in terms of its National importance or socialism. It really is very faint compared to things like a hundred seventy billion dollar deficit and other similar issues took the subject to antitrust laws. And in fact as as many of your listeners know and I'll bet is Jim knows giving the sophistication is question their what's the time at which the antitrust laws were used by the players to get a court decree again came from the local district court in Minnesota that all football players were free agents that the old system of restraints at least among veteran players with the illegal. What happened was that the players and owners went into collective bargaining as they had to do Under the labor lawn and both parties, but typically the union agree to a system of restraints that eventually led to those that we have now is just blew a chance to go for the Golden Goose. Just gave up too much in the eyes of a lot of people. Engage End of collective bargaining is your Ultimate Weapon is the strike and there have been times in the past where the union just didn't have enough support of the players to really pull off an effective strike. But but there is a view that that if we could redo history that the NFL players Association probably would have handled that differently and wouldn't have given up quite as much at the bargaining table. But the question is well if you had a choice was fully apply. Why do we have this perception? Why do some other people have this perception that there's a plantation system going on within the NFL really cool things that come into play. There is a second exemption. There's a second antitrust exemption. It has to be considered in this is the one that we referred to earlier. It's that the labor exemption and that is that the antitrust laws won't apply anything that just text the players and that they agreed to in collective bargaining so that he didn't say. Oh, well, what route what's really important is what's the collective? Dynamic between players and owners and how powerful are the owners and on that point on all fans have seen that these the owners really have proven to be incredibly effective at maintaining solidarity during strikes and during collective bargaining and in the end of that leads me to the second point. I good deal of that solidarity. If you will among the owners can be attributed to the fact that it doesn't leave their business practices and there's one in particular and that is that that's the NFL owners have gone further than any other Professionals for internship engaging in revenue-sharing where the they know the wealthy team share their potential revenues with the weaker teams in an effort to equalize, You don't see a fierce economic competition between individual teams. You see more of that for example in baseball. Local television contract Witcher from which the revenues are not shared are a really very lucrative and produce significant disparities in income. You don't see that in the NFL complete sharing television revenues is a good deal o sharing of gate receipts and so on and just as up a business organization the NFL owners operate more like a partnership and once you either want you have a lot of Revenue sharing than the economic incentive for any individual team to break ranks or any individual owner to break Frank goes down a great deal because it is really no economic incentive for Success on the field. You and and I think it's fair to say that there is some truth to that. If you compare the level of profitability between say they are the most profitable NFL teams in the least profitable. The Gap is going to be much more narrow and he's going to be a very small compared to the Gap that exists a in the NBA and exact the Gap that exists in baseball. So yeah, there's much less of an incentive to certainly there's an almost no incentive to go For Broke in terms of acquiring players in Saint because your revenues won't go up that much. But it was going to go up at the level that they they might have baseball but there's nothing inherently illegal about structuring your your business that way When did a little bit of controversy about that, but my own view is no and that in that indeed that indeed the reason why we saw a collusion in baseball. Revenue sharing is regarded as so controversial in baseball in that that there wouldn't be any collusion. If it wouldn't do any overt collusion if baseball did a better job of a sharing revenues between the wealthy franchises in the week or once the chance of that how it happened as far as I can tell and having fuck to a great number of people chance of that happening is really very small said that unlike the NFL football owners are very much whether to the system in which local TV contracts produce revenues that stay with the local club and I've been indefinitely mean that a team like the Mets or the Yankees located in a major broadcast. Are you going to do better than teams that are located in much smaller TV Market going back to the football situation John. Obviously, there was not a high degree of Union solidarity during the last strike a lot of players indicated either through the press that they didn't think free agency. Was that big an issue were quite a few of them actually cross the picket lines and went back to to work during the strike it has Jim pointed out in his question. Why do you speculate then you're free agency has done wonders for the ability of baseball players to make money. Why don't the football players take it as seriously. I think that's a very insightful question. I will give you a response. I don't want to suggest that this is the gospel but a couple things one serious problem. Is this that too for a player like a Danny White Stripes now over free agency. There's a pretty good chance that if he wins the main beneficiary of his actions are going to be future players and not himself. And that's true of many of the older veterans who are are the superstars and the question is an atheist the real affect the free agency and then you can fill the number either three or four or heaven forbid five or six years down. The road is going to take that long before this isn't a free agency actually gets into to to play then there certainly are reduced incentive for existing players and pickle the existing players have some experience to engage in a strike over free agency reality. The other reality is that I think it's real hard for a superstar who may be making $1000000 a year to go to really believe that his economic potential might be twice that might be 2 million and a question is would you be prepared or with the player be prepared to risk the the certain million in exchange for a Uncertain Prospect of increasing it in combine on certain amount and I I think that's particularly among football players because of that they ever present entry factor that they buying larger pretty risk-averse people and that's the other thing about football as you pointed out earlier in the discussion because the the financial incentive to win is not nearly as great in football is it isn't say baseball is probably the fan supposed to be in the entire good players isn't nearly as great either so it wouldn't go up. Call Superstar Madewell appreciate that the effects of Revenue sharing and that is that there is some incentive to hire Superstars, but there's not the incentive that exist in baseball for example to two essential that the bank because frequently when you're bending the bank is your your bedding the local TV contract. So that's going to improve and you don't have that phenomena in the NFL that will change completely John to go on to the the business of assault assault charges filed in court against hockey players for things done during games on the ice. But it's up an interesting question. And as I indicated before the the other the Forbes case in your area raise us a lot of a lot of the issues that come up big legal question isn't actually a very fascinating question and that is can and then I'll put it in terms of there any lawyers out there. They're going to have checked this but the question is, can you consent to an assault in most other areas of our society we say no and it was that I can't give you the right to beat me up. If you do believe me, even though I say, yes, but you can still be prosecuted in the criminal laws in the recent courses. We want to keep the peace. Well, the arguments made in the sports area. Is that when the player agrees to play hockey? We're talking about an assault by one player against know that he's essentially consented to a lot of physical contact that wouldn't otherwise be permitted off of the off of the ice and sent these can send you can send it. Then there can't be any criminal law violation. That's that that's the first argument the second argument is that well, even if there is a limit to that consent, we really can't agree as to to win a fight or a punch or whatever would amount to a criminal violation. And in the point is is it anybody in professional hockey now would be deemed to be naive beyond belief if they thought that when they went on the I said there was no chance that they'd be involved in a brawl. This is such a common feature of of the game. Now that most people would say that what you can send anything your consenting to do that. Once you take that stuff in this very difficult to to draw the line very difficult the den Define the level of brutality. That would give rise to an effective criminal violation. That's one television but I think it's the real issue and that is Who's going to prosecute these cases what we've seen and it there been a number of it if you go out and research the newspapers in the case reports and particularly from Junior Hockey in in in Canada. There been a number of cases are there actually is a body of law honest the big problem though. He is will the local prosecutor prosecute one of the local players that said almost all the cases involving the professional hockey. But almost all of them are the local prosecutor wants to prosecute the out-of-town player and there are many people who are suspicious about the motives behind that's what a prosecution and its fairness impact such a case pending here Dino. Ciccarelli. The northstars is scheduled to be arrested next time. He shows up in Toronto. and and and again you don't we table it doesn't that that that sounds a little bit like potential was grandstanding by Piggly among prosecutors who are elected and if there is never a prosecution of local players, then we have to question the the fairness and the balance of it on my own view in this is not economic quickly say is not not terribly popular my own view is that except in the most egregious cases and who knows I mean literally a case every 5 years that then if I was just unusual amount of brutality, I do not believe that the criminal laws will be particular effect particularly effective in controlling the behavior on the ice that is see if there's going to be an effective control that's going to have to come through the the league and as long as the league is tolerance Abusive conduct that it would really be quite inappropriate to have the public officials intervene because they the prosecution's are going to resolve. I think we're not going to be prosecution's that leave us convinced that they were ultimately Fair have there been criminal convictions of hockey players or other athletes for four fights during games. At least one case involving a homicide. I think that is where the opposing player died as a result of a fight harder but some form of involuntary manslaughter but yes, there are those cases again mainly from the Canadian Court professor of law at Duke University is our guest on sportfolio this afternoon discussing issues in sports law in letting this portfolio on ksjn 1335. Jeju Preston 13 minutes before 1 at which time we'll get all the latest news from the Associated Press and get ready for the week in review. You still had some time to sleep in your question about sports law at 227-6207. $6,000 phone number here on sportfolio will go to Richfield next day do been an extremely patient man. I appreciate that and your time is come well worth the wait. My question is I guess what what is your your evaluation of the bargaining strategies at the NFL Union and the owners? Goodman in my perspective the owners bludgeoned the union to death used too much force in and putting down the strike. That's why they lost the nlrb case and the in Union blue it and by taking position that that their membership obviously wouldn't support I eat free agency and you know, I guess so what is your evaluation of each side's bargaining tactics and the effectiveness and should they're both sides fire their negotiators. Thank you. Not too far from Dave and then let me just make it a couple of observations and and what I want to hear just raise the questions that I see coming up with respect to the Barking stretching NFL one question is raises is this and it's a question of why did the NFL players Association not file this lawsuit before it went on strike. Why did he Turn out to be really quite expensive for its members and also expensive for the networks in the owners and so on. Why did it do that rather than simply going into court with this lawsuit? What happened in the NBA now, I know the union has a response to that and essentially emphasized that he wanted to try to settle the issue through traditional collective bargaining process season and so on an indie there probably with some legal obligation almost hit me with some legal obligation to at least engage initially in collective bargaining before filing a lawsuit, but but there is a fact and that is that there was a tremendous economic loss that was suffered by the players in a strike that has not been strictly successful. Okay on the other hand on the other hand. It's very difficult to be overly sympathetic with the the owner strategy because what I have said publicly I said it publicly was immediately subjected to the unending criticism from NFL honors. And that is that it just struck me is really quite strange that the NFL owners would take such a hard position as to drive the players into court that if if I were an NFL owner, I would say that the masterful thing about collective bargaining is that that we the owners can participate in the the process that produces the rules that will govern us for the future. Once the case gets kicked into court then it's going to be decided by a third party who has nothing at stake economically and the preferences of the owners wouldn't necessarily be respected because there's a process of decision-making is not barking so I look at it. Why would you people do that? Why would you force the the union into into court and why once you gain the upper hand in negotiation? Why wouldn't you use that to keep the union the bargaining table and instantly get better concession stand up the truth of the matter. Is that labor relations in the NFL? And again I did this is unlike the NBA or professional baseball or professional hockey. I don't believe it's labor relations in the NFL have have yet mature to the point where each side has set aside emotionalism and desire to just trounced the other side that we see in another setting there have been now if I'm not mistaken five strikes in the NFL and that is an unusual number of Italy compared to to the do the other sports and I think we still have a ways to go and there's a rather elaborate to the economic serious why that happens in the NFL? I think it's some of it has to do with the characteristics of the NFL owners. Some of it has to do with that rather large size of the NFL players union, but the fact of the matter is We're not seeing the best of Labor Relations here. And the most we can hope for is that things will be better in the in the future. Get some color standing by or sitting by as the case may be to talk to John we start about the sports law here on sportfolio on ksjn 1330 St. Paul Wesley them from a state without any state income tax like Washington or Florida and I plan a state which has really extremely high taxes. Like Minnesota may be the highest in the country, but my residence using a no tax or a little tax state. How does that work out who gets to bite? And I guess that's about it. I'll hang up and listen. That's a that's one of the lesser-known but but very controversial questions right now, cuz there are a number of states who are claiming a proportion of the income earned within the state even if they athletes not residents there and and the thought is that well, you know, the income is is earned in the state of this is true of any of us at least for most 8/5 actually been in this position that you know, if I go out of state for a brief. Of time in her in some some money, I have to account to both North Carolina and listen. The other state is Massachusetts. I have to see each of those States and and more importantly have to account to Massachusetts for the money that's earned within their borders has been only recently that the states have seen that they can lay claim to athletes that raise and they've actually done that now, Through a system of credits between the states that usually that there's a credit given in the state of residence for the taxes paid at the other state but it still becomes important because of differences in tax rates and and we all know that the government generally are pretty hungry for Revenue as athletes salaries go up in as they reach the one in two million dollar level that's going to be an increasingly temp source of tax revenue for both municipalities and states and I think we're going to see more and more of those Tax Claim to being race. Just question going out and doing got time to get there at least one more call on the air with John we start here on sportfolio will go to Minneapolis. Hi Alan, This has to do with the labor exemption Theory and the current lawsuit. One thing. I really haven't heard much of it is how much the fact that the owners have taken the position at least in collective bargaining that under no circumstances. Would they negotiate free agency? What impact if any do you think that will have on the outcome of this washer? Yeah, that's a real delicate question. Because if it's the legal analysis is if the owners take that position to strong like this if they take the decision to strongly that they will never modifier that they will never agree to free agency. They potentially get themselves into a great deal of difficulty with the nlrb nephew. If you follow closely what went on during the strike at least what I saw was that some of the owners in particular the one to whom these statements are most frequently attributed is text ramp in Dallas. Some of the owners work. We're saying that but it wasn't the official position in of Jack Donovan to negotiate Iran and Dean Donlon was just explaining that that was that that was his position that probably provides the source of the legal protection from any significant legal consequence flowing from those statements, but it is at least curious. It isn't Curious that a highly-placed owner is you know what to say publicly that they'll be no modification of the other free agency system. That's a very dangerous thing to do from a legal point of view because it does potentially have some significant repercussion about 2 minutes to get into this. We're not going to be able to really give it the treatment it deserves but I want at least just dip into my impression from reading your writings of the that your vision of a perfect world in college sports in this country would be for the student-athlete to be every bit as much of a student of the other students of that Institution. That I can say yes to that because we haven't yet to find with the admission standards would be but I would say that the yes, we have to have a reasonable academic expectations for the athletes and I greatly object to suggestions that colleges should be operating what would essentially would be semi-professional or minor league teams with no requirement that the that the players go to class size is the reason for my objection to that. It just says that somebody involved in education. I don't think college is allowed to operate car washes or talent agencies a sponsor rockstars. I don't think they had a sponsor professional teams. But Athletics can be very much a part of the experience of the student body. And what's happened over the last few years is that we began to think of athletes too much separate from the body. So I said yeah, I want to bring them back much closer together in effect at your suggestion that the perhaps Semi-Pro or full-fledged professional leagues be developed it as preparation for The NFL the NBA Major League Baseball some of the ways in which colleges are currently used. the root today is the fact that have a monopoly on free professional training in football and basketball and what that means that a frat as a practical matter is is that a hundred percent that every aspiring High School athlete in football and basketball have to be prepared for an inclined to engage in the four-year college program in order to get his professional training. We impose that on 100% of the athletes when in fact if we look at non-athletes, we see that for that said only roughly 30% of any National High School graduating class will will I end up with for years in college that is not something at selected by most people and I just think it's fundamentally wrong to Channel all athletes in that direction cuz it is ultimately has the effect of frustrating choices that would otherwise be made by the athletes that limits their economic potential and it produces tremendous downward pressure on academic standards and collagen has been enjoyable and informative and I hope sometime down the road we get a chance. I'll be happy to be back. I enjoyed it to JJ. Thank you very much professor of law at the Duke University School of Law in North Carolina yesterday here on sportfolio. My text or associate producer Sue winking for getting the trains run on time here today Patty real God. I never remember your last name with the ribs. Daddy raised under your technical stuff. Jack McCain. Rest of the phone could work there Jeff MJG Preston. Thanks for listening. You're on portfolio. See you again next Saturday. Coming up next to him world and national news from the Associated Press and then Mark I said his back with the week in review it listen to ksjn 1330 Minneapolis-Saint Paul five degrees in the Twin Cities and snowing 3 to 6 inches expected before it stops tonight.