Good afternoon. I am Deborah Howell, editor of the st. Paul Dispatch Pioneer Press and the chairwoman of Minnesota meeting. It's a pleasure to welcome all of you to Minnesota meeting here today. We also extend a wreck welcome to the radio listeners throughout the Upper Midwest who are hearing this program on Minnesota public radio's. Midday program. Minnesota meeting is a public affairs Forum which brings National and international speakers to Minnesota over 1800 corporate government and Community leaders belong to Minnesota meeting.Minnesota meeting is pleased to present today's speaker Minnesota. Senator, Dave durenberger who will present a major policy speech on Central America Regional and security and US policy. Dave durenberger is come a long way from being head of the Dakota County young Republicans. He on his way to the US Senate some highlights a graduate of st. John's a graduate of the University of Minnesota law school executive secretary to governor levander and Council for HP Fuller.He was elected to the US Senate in 1978 and is the former chairman of the Senate select committee on intelligence which was deeply involved in formulating US policy in Central America over the last nine years, Dave durenberger chair the initial Congressional inquiry into the Iran-Contra arms controversy, and he currently serves on committees concerning the economy the environment health issues the aging and National Defense. As we all know David durenberger is not a shy guy. He knows what he believes and he's not afraid to say it that makes him an editor's dream, and that's why we're all looking forward to hearing him today after his presentation. He will address questions from the audience. Please use the cards at your table to Jack questions down for discussion Steve Young executive Steve Young from from Hamlin will move among you to manage the question and answer period is now my pleasure to introduce you introduce to you Senator, Dave durenberger. Thank you Deborah for that introduction. I knew you'd find something I'd forgotten and I appreciate the opportunity to be here and offer some comments that are as timely today as our newspapers including your own. I'm not sure if it came through on the televised broadcast yesterday, but the durenberger family and just about the entire durenberger Washington staff were among the viking fans at the at RFK Stadium. We were the little pocket of purple on the 20-yard line right down in the first row. I think it was where we had to look through all the all of the visiting sportswriters. But anyway, we were yelling go go go waving our little touchdown towels all of the time and I just I think we all regret that we weren't able to bring back with us this morning another Minnesota sports Miracle but seeing Deborah Hall and Jack Finnegan and Ron Clark here today and they're lobbying me on another project reminds me of how intensely competitive the newspaper business has become that's especially true since the other newspaper the one across the river announced that it had become the newspaper of the western world. I don't even know how to refer to it anymore. Maybe I'll just call it the nww that sound better than strip. Somehow that competition becomes even more acute when our sports team are doing. Well. The headlines get bigger. The pictures have more color the sports section have more ads and of course the newspapers have started selling all sorts of things besides subscriptions and advertising and that's I guess that's not all bad. A lot of us solved our annual Christmas gift dilemma this year by giving t-shirt t-shirts sweatshirts calendars coffee mugs, all of it dominated by the front pages of the morning paper the day the with twins won the won the World Series. I was in Pensacola, Florida last week meeting with a bunch of doctors for breakfast and over here was The Breakfast Table, which was very on medical like I mean, it had greasy just about everything you could think of but they're in front of my place with a box of Wheaties. He's with the twins jumping all over each other. So anyway, we're having fun with it. And I wish we could have wish we could have had a lot a lot more down in Central America and in the San Jose Costa Rica and particular and many of you very familiar with that Community because of our special relationship here in the Twin Cities with Costa Rican with San Jose and much of it stimulated by my friends at HP Fuller company and the Andersons and their Venture into Central America in 1964 after one of the many earthquakes, but we are interested in what went on down there and that is the subject of the talk. I've been asked to give here today three years ago. I spoke on this same topic to the National Press Club in Washington DC and I laid out at that time six principles for a more enlightened US policy towards that very troubled part of this hemisphere. One of those principles the is the process we're now seeing play out. The direct and the personal involvement of the Central American political leaders themselves. The struggle for Democratic Revolution is not ours alone. I said in that speech and if we attempt to make it, so we're in for frustration. I went on to say and I'll quote again. It is time for those who have undertaken the Democratic Revolution to stand up for the principles of democracy throughout the region if the nations of Central America did not act together, they risk collapsing one by one the region is tightly interdependent and it cannot continue the Democratic Revolution unless it acts in the United Way and of quotation it was that kind of United action, which was evident this past weekend in San Jose our contribution to that Unity included the so-called Reagan right peace plan, which was proposed on the eve of the First Central American Summit last August by President Reagan and house Speaker Jim Wright the day before that August Summit. I met with the Salvadoran Ambassador in my walk off. In Washington as we discussed the upcoming Summit we talked about how the latest us proposal could could fair or could very well Force Unity from the central Americans and that's precisely what happened. And that's what happened for continue to happen this weekend because of pressure from his four Democratic colleagues president Ortega greed this weekend to talk directly with the contras to suspend the state of emergency and to release all political prisoners pending the outcome of ceasefire negotiations. Daniel Ortega did not come to San Jose with those kinds of concessions in mind. In fact, these steps would have been inconceivable without the regional pressure for peace president Ortega must now follow through on his promises and the contras must be prepared to negotiate seriously many observers had predicted that this weekend's meetings would result in formal postponement of deadlines for delay or defer delays in implementing the peace process, but the Vision to require immediate implementation of the Guatemala Peace Accords demonstrates that diplomatic pressure can yield results the monkey is now squarely on the back of the sandinistas place there by the other presidents of the other Central American countries. The whole world is now watching to see if Daniel Ortega can deliver on his commitment to abide by the requirements of the Guatemala City agreement at the same time. It's clear that renewal of us Aid to the military resistance would be a death knell to the peace process that is a principle which this Administration dating back to 1981 has never understood. We must not allow the sandinistas to use our actions in this country as an excuse to renege on the promises that they have made and that is as true today as it was when I first voted against the funding of covert introduction of Argentina Argentine trained somos East has into Nicaragua in 1981. That Us action would be used by the nicaraguans to renege on their promises and that's why keeping the peace momentum going must now be the primary objective of US policy in Central America briefly. The peace plan signed last August calls for Action establishes timetables and five areas ceasefires in the countries with armed conflicts amnesty for government opponents internal commission's on National reconciliation Democratic reforms and an end to to assistance to Guerrilla forces in the region commitments to undertake these five steps were to be honored simultaneously by November 5 90 days after the signing a verification commission was to issue report to the five presidents by December 2nd and the heads of state to meet again in January to consider the reports, which they did this weekend to keep president Ortega's promises, which we discussed in perspective. Therefore, it's important to recognize how much progress against those objectives have been. Made in implementing the agreement signed last August in El Salvador president Duarte undertook ceasefire talks with that Nations leftist Insurgency, but the Cuban Nicaraguan sponsored opposition walked away from the stalks and did not observe a government declared ceasefire in November. Although the war has continued the political opening and El Salvador has increased the two top leaders of the opposition's political Wing accepted president Ortiz long-standing offered and returned home spoke openly and even LED protests against the government abroad in controversial amnesty law has also been passed in all in El Salvador which pardons all crimes committed before October 22 of 87, except the 1980 murder of Archbishop Romero. Obviously a law that has angered a lot of us and yet that was the commitment despite this compliance with the peace agreement the Salvadoran Civil War goes on and though they've been dramatically reduced the killings by both right and left wing death squads. Continue. The murder of Human Rights activist Herman Anaya on October 26 was just one example of how extremists attempts to Halt the peace process in El Salvador continue despite these pressures and their enormous from both extremes president of RIT has made a strong commitment to implement the Guatemala City agreement and that commitment along with similar steps in dealing with smaller leftist Insurgency. And in Guatemala have now placed the monkey on the back of the sandanista government in Nicaragua president Ortega and his fellow commandant. He's are deeply divided over how to respond to their democratically incline neighbors until the past weekend the sandinistas refused to engage in direct ceasefire talks with the resistance. They refused to proclaim a broad amnesty. They refused to lift the state of emergency in most parts of that country after a series of blatant threats by the sandinistas the 14 internal opposition party suspended their dialogue with the government and six of the leaders of six of those parties were arrested and detained this past weekend for meeting with Years in Guatemala by contrast with President Arias disorder that Contra political leaders leave Costa Rica the sandinistas continue to provide Sanctuary for the leftist guerrillas fighting against the government in El Salvador the positive side the opposition newspaper La prensa. The Catholic church is radio station have been allowed to reopen although under limited conditions and some opposition dialogue has taken place has place but the promises made by President Ortega this past weekend must also be taken or seen in light of plans for bringing well over a half million nicaraguans underarms with continued Soviet assistant, all of these recent developments have led me to conclude that now is the time for a fresh start in US policy towards Central America, which would include strong support for the Region's small D Democrats and an increased emphasis on economic assistance and trade Central to this new approach to Central America will be ending our support for the Nicaraguan. Interest as an alternative to a policy which is focused on Aid to the contras. I would like to suggest five steps which make the u.s. A constructive partner in keeping the Central American peace process going forward first, I would argue the genuine Democrats and the country movement return to Nicaragua and enter the political process opposition leaders, like Alfonso row below and Alfredo says our have much to offer a more open Democratic process inside Nicaragua. This should call this Antony's to Bluff about promise democratization. How are they should call the bluff by going home second the focus of u.s. Support Nicaragua should be shifted from the arm contras to the legal opposition parties and others inside Nicaragua who opposed the sandanista government in the past us policy has been premised on a choice between the contras or the sandinistas. There are many committed Democrats who have stayed in a caraga over the last decade and fought a difficult battle for Liberty and freedom. They are the most potent. I was questioning the legitimacy of the current sandanista regime they have the credibility both at home and abroad to mount a truly effective Democratic challenge to the sandanista regime. Third we need to examine very carefully both the scope and the purpose of us Aid to the other principal trouble spot in central America El Salvador. His divided country has a long way to go. But under the courageous leadership of President awardee El Salvador has also come a long way along the road toward democracy in particular the problem of violent extremes Remain. The murderous right has begun with could prove to be a major Resurgence of activity on the armed left as we know has chosen to use terrorism rather than The Ballot Box or any negotiation to pursue their cause in El Salvador. The purpose of us Aid should be to end the Civil War not to prolong it a fixation on the military aspects of counterinsurgency by itself will not bring victory in designing our aid program to deny a leftist. Guerrilla Victory. We must make sure we address the full spectrum of underlying causes of the conflict. Fourth we must be prepared to launch a broad attack on the economic problems, which underlie all the conflicts in Central and even in Latin America through economic assistance expanded trade debt, restructuring and enlightened immigration policies as the traditional problems of under development persist new threats to u.s. Security in the hemisphere about in some countries the biggest threat to our security is not left this etiology. It's drugs entire States in those countries are held hostage to drug lords who can enforce their will on corrupt and terrorized officials in Colombia. The judicial system is almost completely broken down and in Panama links with drug dealers help keep the current dictator in power immigration from Latin America is also changing the face of large parts of the United States, but the issue of immigration is far more than the Specter of peach people used by the Contra supporters to argue their case. It is an You that affects demography Labor Relations Social Services education in the entire Western Hemisphere economic and political refugees are a symptom of a region in crisis until there is sustained economic growth in Latin America. And until there is a stain progress toward democracy. There will be immigrants and there will be refugees. One of the greatest obstacles and economic growth in Latin America is the overwhelming for and death that consumes so much of the Region's well that payments not only limit the resources available for domestic development. It threatens the US economy as well. Our trade deficit with Latin America's increasing our agricultural trade imbalance in 1986 grew by over 20% that imbalance will continue as long as governments have to use their foreign exchange to make out checks to Banks and Wall Street rather than to Farmers and other producers of u.s. Products. It's not surprising that our own preoccupation with the narrow debate each year over Aid to the contras has diverted attention from the much larger economic and political agenda, which we must now address the Kissinger commission announced the Jackson plan. In honor of scoop Jackson its recommendations to deal with broad economic and political problems in Central America in 1984. But interest waned considerably when the price tag was announced something on the order of six billion dollars over five years and in the current climate of fiscal constraints providing increased foreign aid is hardly an attractive option to Americans, but we cannot have real security and real development in Central America. The Caribbean Mexico South America on the cheap a hundred million dollars here eight million dollars their aid to the contras will not make Costa Rica or Honduras or the United States more secure. So my fifth suggestion for a fresh start for the peace process and Central America is to call on the president to bring the Kissinger commission back together. To recommit the United States to Aid the five Central American presidents in making permanent, whatever piece they negotiate. The US Congress must be forced to acknowledge its responsibility for much of the current economic instability in this region and to demonstrate our capacity as a nation to bring the Central American and the Caribbean countries right along with us into the 21st century of world Economic Development. Ending a policy based on us Aid to the contras will have a positive effect on the Central American peace process, but that's not all this kind of Fresh Start. We'll also give the United States the opportunity to focus on the long-term challenges of dealing with regional security issues around the world in making that transition to more constructive Regional security policy. I'd like to suggest five important objectives first. We look Beyond a simple worldview that imposes an East-West prism on every conflict in the third world instead. We Define our opposition to totalitarian regimes in positive terms. We must be for something in the third world and that something is democracy justice and human rights. We must be consistent in the support or the Latin Americans and others will not trust us you all know that supporting democracy is much easier said than done but certain fundamental tasks are called for in each case. Functioning Judicial Systems, but guarantee individual rights economic systems that allow private initiatives the flourish and permits workers to freely organized a political system that tolerates diverse ideas and encourages a healthy competition between political parties. The Reagan Administration has made great progress in placing the support of democratic movements around the world at the Forefront of the u.s. Foreign policy agenda, but that support is not always been consistent, but it has been there in Haiti the administration refused to condemn the government sponsored violence and provide adequate support for the legitimate Democrats working for free election in the Philippines. We see great progress toward democracy endangered now because of the lack of an overall strategy to deal with the Myriad of Economic and security problems faced by the Aquino government in South Korea were gambling, but we're gambling on the side of democracy us. And Panama is now also on the side of Democrats, but only after years of identification with the military and only after I and others work to build a senate consensus in favor of the Democrats and opposed to the current brutal dictatorship. Supporting democracy is a long-term goal and it varies greatly from country to Country. We can't util Adderley impose Democratic principles or institutions overnight, but we must also be willing to preserve to fight to preserve them, especially when they are threatened by world scale military forces from outside this hemisphere. It is also time for us to recommit The 1980s 90s version of the Monroe Doctrine and it's time to make it clear that the National Security of the United States is dependent on the political stability in this hemisphere that the post-world War II bipolar conflict requires us to resist by any appropriate means Soviet bases on American soil including Cuba. That kind of recommitment will not be lost on our Latin American neighbors a second objective in building a regional security policy is that the u.s. Developed better institutional means of supporting democracy and better means of dealing with the new security challenges we see in Latin America and throughout the world. We spend as you all know 300 billion dollars a year on defense but find military leaders reluctant to use their forces for drug interdiction. We've a pentagon that's unwilling to follow congressional orders to develop strategies and doctrines to deal with so called low intensity conflicts. Ask General Jack. Jessee about that one as a nation where Well equipped to help an ally deal with external Invasion. But so poorly equipped to help allies deal with internal subversion 24,000. People in Philippines that are going to overthrow that country and we can't do anything about it and we have an intelligence community that is charged with objectively analyzing the same events that it's trying to influence through what too often became overt covert actions that to must change and change soon. A third objective is one. I already mentioned find Creative Solutions to the third world debt crisis the longer we defer concerted action on the debt issue the more likely the rise of populist leaders based on National resentment of foreign Banks the recent debt agreement with Mexico could be a promising model for other third world countries, if the proposal works it could be readily applied to other debtor Nations and it could help reinvigorate the most natural export Market. We can look through for growth the countries of Latin America. A fourth objective is when I've also mentioned previously when we must do a better job of linking foreign policy with immigration and Refugee policy. We will not help the fledgling democracies of Central America by deporting thousands of individuals who did not qualify for Refugee status in the United States. That's the principle reason that I've supported a grant of extended voluntary departure status to salvadorians and Nicaragua's pending an independent study of conditions in their home countries Fifth and finally the US must work with not against Regional efforts to deal with regional problems that I think is the principal message of the progress we've seen so far in the Central American peace process by working with capable Regional actors in Latin America in Southeast Asia, and another troubled parts of the world. We can help Place us relations with the third world on a new and more equal footing much of the credit for the Central American peace process must go to a young man that I had the privilege of meeting several years. Before he was elected president of Costa Rica. Oscar Arias president Arias is a courageous and a determined advocate for democracy. And he was a very deserving winner of the 1987 Nobel Peace Prize today in this country. We're honoring another Nobel Peace Prize recipient and equally courageous and determined advocate for our most basic civil and human rights. Dr. Martin Luther King as we celebrate his birthday and as we approach the 20th anniversary of his death Martin Luther King continues to be remembered for his Landmark contributions to extending civil and human rights to all the citizens of this country his leadership and his personal sacrifice captured the heart and the conscience of an entire nation. The recognition of the entire world much of what dr. King fought for and died his now its stake in the Democratic revolutions. We see taking place in Central America and other parts of the world. As we pause today to remember Martin Luther King May each of us rededicate ourselves to achieving the dream which he sought for all Americans and for all people. Thank you all very much for this opportunity to share these thoughts with you this afternoon. Thank you very much. Senator, for those of you who've been at a recent Minnesota meeting, you know our procedure for those of you who are new please join in just signal with your hand. Let me know you have a question or a comment for the senator and I on this side of the room or Jane Rasik on that side of the room will come to you with a mic so that you can engage in a direct conversation with the senator, but our general rule is really only one question or comment per participant. Thank you John. You have a question. I thought the questions went up and you are ahead of anonymity. Please inform this is too important to topic to rest an anonymity. Oh, I agree. Please inform us of the Republican and the Democratic candidate for president who would best represent your position, which I agree with in terms of Central America. Well, that's a very good question John. Having served with with most of those people. I think the best answer is that you that I'd have to go through an analysis of their views on a variety of those of those issue because the person that comes most readily to mind is not necessarily one of the people that's currently a candidate but it would and it would be a Democrat. Pardon me for saying that Bill Bradley who has a as a member of the intelligence committee when I was cherished been a great deal of time helping me think out the long-term strategies involved in this Hemisphere and while he and I disagree currently on the funding of the of the contras, I think probably of all of the people in the Senate he comes closest to feeling the the long-range solutions to the problem on the on the Republican side despite. Is his rhetoric? I think Bob Dole who has lived with the frustrations of once twice. Now, I think three times a year Congressional debates crises compromises hammered out in the majority Leader's office has over a very small part of a very serious problem would be the one most eager to find a solution to the problem. I think I best not go beyond that. Thank you Senator. We have a question here. So this morning's Star Tribune at an article on the front page about President Reagan saying that he wasn't swayed by our take as concessions and he still wanted to push for an aid to the contras. Could you tell how you differ with that or as the vote comes up at the end of January of Ortega's faithful. Would you be voting against the Contra Aid? Yeah, I think we've all had to I'm assuming this gets picked up by whatever is recording. So I don't have to repeat the question. Is that correct? Everyone has been thinking about that question as they as they approach to San Jose and and and obviously everyone is very eager for the for the president's reaction. I don't know that we're going to get a definitive reaction from President Reagan and till about the 26th until about this time next week or or Tuesday of next week because there's going to have to be here an interval of time in which some of the members who were there. I'll be The mainly Democrats but not all John McCain was down down there representing, uh get back and actually have an opportunity to visit with the president what you heard this morning. I assume knowing the modus operandi and the White House is the same thing. You heard from Elliott Abrams version of the state department and that is the knee-jerk. You can't trust anybody and so let's just keep going the problem with just keeping going in light of that kind of a promise is that it then focuses back on the Congress of the United States over whether it ought to be eight million dollars fifty million dollars a hundred million dollars how long it out the last what conditions you're going to hang on there and the central Americans are once again left out of the picture. So I'm hopeful that between John McCain and Chris Dodd on our side and the person likely Hamilton for whom I have so much respect and with whom I work so closely for two years. They're going to be able to actually sit down. With Ronald Reagan as well as George Shultz said Colin Powell and Frank carlucci and come up with an alternative to the present proposal which is a vote by the house on the third or the fourth followed by a vote by the Senate on either the fourth of the or the fifth question over there Jane. Senator a question on domestic affairs. Will you comment on the budget crisis and the inability of Congress to deal with it? Yes, and I'll try to do that briefly Chuck be glad to send you a speech I made a week ago today about how optimistic I am about the economic future of the country and that that belies the existence of a large fiscal deficit and a two large trade deficit as well. The the inability of people who are really very talented than they appear to be when they act collectively to make Collective decisions is a is not a hereditary thing. We're not those of us in politics aren't born with this sort of thing. And there's nothing to distinguish those of us who lay claim to being Republicans from those who lay claim to being Democrats in this regard either it basically today an Institutional problem and it at least it's my I'm feeling from the time that bill frenzel gave me his newsletter in 1978 after I'd been elected Senate and said this is the way to stay in office and Elmer Anderson bless him wherever he may be I guess did he make it today those Elmer's here oh great so as a learner and Elmer said you look at those and there's an old newspaper editor and publisher he's as you look at those Bill frenzel newsletters and that'll keep you in office forever and what they were were the work of a very good entrepreneur creating creating an entrepreneurship for himself by an effect disowning any responsibility for the folks back in in Washington now if you're in a if you're in the traditional minority in the Congress of the United States I can see how you come by that and even Ted me Tao told me when he thought before he died that I was going into the forever minority in the Senate and he said remember you know you have no It's a great thing to be in the minority of the minority, you know, you vote with them when they're right. You vote against someone or wrong and you stay there forever, but it by 1981 I was in I was in responsibility and I realize that the more we knock the institution the harder it is to get it to do anything and there is well everyone thinks their Senator Congress is great. If the institution is in total disrespect of every time you have a pay raise your Deluge with hundreds of thousands of crummy editorials and and newspaper are letters from people and all that sort of thing. Then there's a then there's that kind of institutional paralysis that only a strong leader can help to overcome. We have had a strong leader who done a lot for us in the last seven years on the economic front. He got us to you know, quit predicating every decision on inflation. And by the end when we started doing that we licked inflation got interest rates down got jobs up got a whole lot of other things done and he didn't do it by unbalancing the federal budget. But the realities are we are living with whatever how many 20 years of inflation we're living with 25% Cola adjustments in just three years 1979 1980 and 1981 the Social Security colas and every other: this country went up 25 percent just one year. They didn't come down when inflation went down. They just you know, where they are. They're all sitting up there there now 48 percent of all federal spending. Well our great leader and all the rest of us great followers, but all that stuff off off but I mean awful, you know, we can't touch that stuff because that's for the fragile senior group. And then of course, we needed to double our national security by doubling our defense spending and we had a recession for about a year and a half. We had a high dollar for three years, which those of you had business no didn't help this country at all. And so with that kind of a background all I all I can offer you by way of Hope for the future is that the institution is individuals is ready to go. I think it will take a new leader. I mean, I know it will and 1989. You're going to see the Bob Dole said it last week. I think it was probably in response to my luncheon speech could see what Henry Kissinger says about this one, but the next president will commit himself. In his first or second or third speech may be his first speech to balancing the federal budget by the end of his term because he knows if he doesn't he's going to be in big trouble. There's so much more to say about it, but I'll term thank you Senator. Mr. McCready a question Senator. I found it interesting the possible Revival of the Kissinger commission, which I certainly think is a good idea in view of what you mentioned. If we were to be called upon to spend six billion dollars for a similar emergency in Europe. We would probably find less resistance to it then in Central America and yet Central America is of vital importance to us. One of the problems that we seem to have is a possibility of those who accept our help in Central America being considered puppet governments, which would cast a stigma and then that would make it difficult for them to Rally support. Is there an answer to that problem of spending that much money in that area? I think the the puppet government. Argument went really I mean the the heart of it went out when Romero and out of Salvador which followed the samosas going out of going out of Nicaragua you now have Democrats that I mean elected Democrats from a from a from a reliably reliable elected the process in office as president of four of those of those six countries some would claim that Ortega. Is there with a reliable mandate. I don't I don't happen to agree with that. But you've got four out of the six now if this process works you're going to have five the Lord only knows if Noriega goes to the Dominican Republic again, he won't come home. You could have six out of out of six and what those people really need what their business communities need what internal and outside investors need what their Bankers needs so they stopped shipping their Capital offshore. They need some stability in the long range commitment from the United States now, please At the notion that six billion dollars is all in foreign aid hand out money a whole lot of this both in the CBI and Central America comes just from recognizing what but Elmer's taught me over the years that newsprint made by that jungle. What's that? Whatever that tree is called can't get into this country because the domestic producers of newsprint won't permit it to get in here and you can go on and on and on and on with a tradition of protectionism in the United States of America, which is played on by other people like right now the Cubans are playing on the sugar quota and things like that to keep products which are naturally made in those parts of the world from getting into the getting into an American market. So there is a variety of approaches that and the Kissinger commission was very Broad in its recommendation. The six billion just happened to be the price tag that went to long-term economic aid of One kind of the other. Thank you Senator. Jane a question over there. Senator maybe you could say something for the better for the newspaper the Western World and others about in see you sitting there when I made the comment at Bobwhite. He didn't need the only guy who introduced himself, you know that to economic questions one has to do with a Kissinger commission and Revival of it. What are the chances of getting six billion dollars in that kind of economic support. Secondly one of your points was reassessing Aid economic aid El Salvador. What did you mean by that? Okay in the in with regard to the first Question in terms of the the feasibility of the of the commission this recommendation like those many people are doing these days is is drafted not only to the current Administration but as a quote letter to the next president of the United States is the Educators just got done doing I noticed in higher education and in part of what what we would at least I have and others who have been talking about this. Why don't we get the cushion to commission going would contemplate is that it would be Ronald Reagan's gift to the next the next president that he would bring them back together. It includes Bob Strauss and and Henry Cisneros and brightest folks like like that a very bipartisan group and they got the job done unbelievably it's one of those commissions that actually actually worked but this President would get them back together with a very serious charge they'd go to work on a parallel line with what's going on in in Central America right now and they would report out sometime while he was still president and before the next president. Took office. There is no chance that anything more than the approximately seven seven hundred million or eight hundred million dollars, which is currently in the pipeline for various kinds of economic aid could pass in this part of the Congress. You're not going to get that kind of a bold move from this congress with regard to with regard to El Salvador. We had among the various things that I can talk about that we that we did in El Salvador. That was was the right kind of use of Aid in the beginning was the money that went to try to convert the National Guard into a very legitimate kind of a police departments as we would know them in st. Paul Minneapolis and and wherever and so for the first three years in particular from 83 on much of the dollar denominated, the direct dollar-denominated aid went to help out that that conversion process. Not enough, and so but the the $1 kept building up and not very much of it got spread into some of the some of the ancillary service areas the Social Security System some of the other areas in which they really do need help because the pressure is on from health workers. The pressure is on from doctors the pressures on from public health nurses a variety of that sort of thing for more adequate medical facilities and a variety of that sort of thing. And so it is really a matter of trying to to move a least a part of the El Salvadorian aid from that original build your Police Department over to build your social what they call the Social Security Department. Thank you Senator question here. Senator while you were buying your way out of the traffic yesterday and I was making myself feel even worse by watching Bill Moyers program on the second secret government. I don't know if you've seen it or not, but it raises this question of concern not only about the morality and effectiveness of our policy in Central America, but what it's doing to our Democratic institutions here at home and to our whole system of an effective foreign policy and effective executive and a balance between the Congress and the people it's particularly threatening and frightening when we hear about the lawsuit that the Christian Institute has raised which suggests that the CIA and the secret government have been engaged directly in drug traffic and I'd like you to comment on that this issue and where you see some changes could be made. Yeah. I just just with regard to the to that particular lawsuit. Let me say that both of us were with regard to the comments that were made here in town by somebody. The my personal involvement with threats and so forth. There's nothing to that and also with regard to the to the drug-dealing the CIA plays a very major role on the intelligence side in drug interdiction, generally, so obviously it's got experts there who know this business backward and forward, but I can I can tell you from my experience that the agency with the exception of some probably some kind of very temporary phenomenon where you're just pulling somebody together for a special operation would not and does not engage in in any kind of a patterned funding if you will of of insurrection through fostering drug program. I think they have in the past and that's particularly true in Southeast Asia, but they're now committed in that part of the world and in other places to undoing some of those some of those past mistakes. I have to say that somebody who's involved with the countries of the fdn are already or something. Like that wasn't also involved in drug, but I can point out more examples on the sandinistas side of some of that particular kind of activity the larger issue and I haven't seen the Bill Moyers program of the so-called secret government is and should be very troubling to you. It is what it is what particularly troubled or was a trouble for me during the two years that I was chair of the Senate intelligence committee because of the fact that I had announced before I was ever chairman that this open covert action not a move out of the intelligence committee and in the foreign relations and it was a very open activity it ought to get out of the intelligence committee. And so I was never really permitted to forget that one. But the reality is that both Lee Hamilton and I while we were chairs were exposed to several covert actions one in the Nicaragua, which is now public so we can all talk about it plus others which are also public but we And talked about and in that case we find ourselves very uncomfortable representatives of our larger constituencies mean. It is impossible to pretend that we don't know what's going on and yet we stand around denying all of the time that this activity or that activity takes place. So Bill Cohen and I and and lie and a lot of other people got together in the last couple three years and we devised this notion of low intensity conflict and we had help as I mentioned earlier in my comments from Jack jessee and others another this is it I mean you are not going to pretend Afghanistan is not a problem and we better make it a problem for the Russian. You're not going to pretend that Angola isn't a problem and that 7,000 Cubans sitting in the south of Africa is not a problem for the United States and you can't pretend that Nicaragua and the sandinistas is not a problem and you go all the way around the world the Philippines. I mentioned 24,000 NLP a folks and in the Philippines are going to overthrow that country or have that capacity to do that and we don't have the capacity in this country to help. Mrs. Aquino do anything about it? The only argument is the pretend you do you have the CIA do it all and pretend. There's nothing going on when it's very obvious or do you find a new way to do low intensity conflict? So that the in the CIA can better do what it is supposed to do over the proprietary under proper oversight the National Security Council or the National Security Agency and the rest of the defense intelligence agency and other people can also do their appropriate intelligence role and where you want to support low intensity conflict. You want to support Democratic Revolution through low-intensity conflict. You do it in a process which can be partially open partially secret if that's the way you want to keep it but where you're going to be guaranteed that your representatives have some oversight. There was no way that I can guarantee that. I knew everything that was going on in Central America as long as the president the vice president and others had decided that they were certain things that I wasn't going to know anything about and so that's sort of the way it works. Excuse me. Thank you Senator question for mr. Tilson. Senator does he pose a genuine threat to president with his government? Question is why the not former Colonel Roberto d'aubuisson presents a threat to the Duarte government and I don't know that he does just you know personally but the right is still there and and and there will always be some problems. The president has told me a number of times that when we talk either about the business Community which gives him only sort of lip service or we talked about his generals. He always says, you know, they support me as long as I'm a head, you know, if I'm I'm ahead of them in a ballgame. They support me if I fall behind by one run they'll start turning on me and if I you know, if I lose if I'm down by three runs, the ball game is is over with so that's that is the reality and in Salvador right now. It's just an incredible. Everybody knows very little country very small country and yet it's an incredible the position that that that mankind So often but it's still there's enough stability to build on. Thank you Senator, mr. Plant. Mr. Garber Schoff made a remark to President Reagan indicating that the Soviet Union might be willing to give up Aid to the nicaraguans. If we would give up Aid to the contras. There was a non-committal response. What do you think of that proposal? Well, I think that's the I think that is the proposal which is contained in the in both at least most of it's contained in the Reagan right which I call the Reagan right proposal of early August and in The Proposal which is contained in the in the Guatemala or the Arias piece plant the question as I understand it now is where the Gorbachev meted whether he does meant he was we this is an issue we ought to explore that's the way it's being interpreted for us in Congress. You raised it because he said I thought that was an issue that ought to be explored. We were raising the same issue. We're raising that with with regard to Afghanistan and all of it was designed to be sort of feeling Out for the for the future, but it yes. It is a very appropriate part of a solution to this problem. Thank you. Thank you Senator, your general approach on Central America is one that appeals to me very much. However, I feel the need to press you on one point, which is a rationale 482 continued Aid to the contras. There is an argument that it is only the recent military successes of the contras rather than the peace process of the Central American leaders, which is brought or taken the sandinistas to the bargaining table. If there is any Merit to that argument shouldn't you be in favor of some continued assistance to the contras while the emphasis shifts to the legal Democratic opposition within Nicaragua? Well, I have a couple of answers to that I guess as to even at the very legitimate question and half the people in the room will not agree with my answer I would guess but there's two parts of it one is the humanitarian part. There's no predictable end of this. I mean whether whether you are whether you're the naysayer about About the bona fide he's of the of the sandinistas or on the other side. This thing just goes on forever. You've got a third of the United States Senate crying for 500 million dollars or billion dollars or as little money would solve the problem. Well how much money is spent you're still going to have ten thousand farmers and that's all you're going to have and and and none of whom have ever been to Managua so they wouldn't know what the heck to do. If you gave him a stinger and sent them. So in that kind of a in that kind of a sense if you want this thing to be over with that doesn't that doesn't end it the second part of this this problem is is the legitimacy issue and and Dwight. He raised this with all of us in his last visit here. He said, you know the revolutionaries I've known the people like me are the ones that lost their fingers, you know, and they're willing to go right back in there and nobody ever wrote out a check for me. The how is it that all of a sudden, you know, they used to live on 27 million now, they need a hundred million and because because they, you know, you don't give made million from now until next month all of a sudden. They're all they're all going to go where they going to go. Well, you know where they're going to go. They're going to go back to the farm. That's where most of them are going to go and Enrique Bermudez and a few other people have to haul out to Honduras someplace or Miami and get their batteries charged or whatever they do in Miami, but the rest of guys are going back to the farm. They go back there periodically anyway, shoot up a few rounds of ammunition to prove that they've been in Nicaragua and then and then come back out. So is is that the real threat, of course, I mean, but the threat is that the United States is going to be there using these Farmers forever and ever unless you do something and that to me is not at least in terms of wanting to get World opinion on the side of a solution to this problem. That isn't going to do it. Thank you very much, sir. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much, and on behalf of Minnesota meeting. I would like to present to you our traditional gift the Minnesota meeting peace pipe, which is designed by Indian artist Robert Rose. Bear Roars bear and is symbolic of the human bonds, which peaceably unite us all. Thanks. Thank you very much for joining us today.