(00:00:00) Hi, this is J.G. Preston and welcome to sport folio today. We turn our attention to college basketball and in particular to the man who's the most controversial figure in college basketball and maybe in all of Sports Indiana University coach Bobby Knight few would argue with his team success. But many would take issue with nights methods. My guest today is a man who spent an entire season with night in the Hoosiers and the result was an outstanding book a season on the brink which came out in hardback year ago and is now available in paperback. And today we have a chance to talk to its author John Feinstein who also covers college basketball for the Washington Post. You can call in your questions at to 276 thousand here on sport folio. I really enjoy having writer's is guess on this program. They tend to be articulate informed opinionated and good be Esters all of which are vital attributes of a talk show guest they don't usually have writers on twice especially to talk about the same book. However, I am making an exception today for John Feinstein for several compelling reasons first. He did a great job when he was a guest on the show last year second the subject of his book. Bobby Knight is one that can stand further discussion. Third. John can talk about the entire realm of college basketball and forth. He agreed to come on. However, he's not quite ready yet because John made the mistake of staying at the Holiday Inn in Lawrence, Kansas. Apparently, you can call out of the Holiday Inn in Lawrence, Kansas without any difficulty, but getting a call in is another story whatsoever. We had to call John back after he called us for the first time it apparently the connection has been re-established. John finds dean of the Washington Post. It's very nice to have you back on portfolio. I appreciate (00:01:53) it. Thanks JJ. It's good to be back. How (00:01:55) are you? I'm very good. You're there to watch a little basketball this (00:01:57) weekend. Yeah, I think some pretty serious basketball, you know around the country. They're all these different rivalries but, Missouri, Kansas is probably about as intense as it gets and obviously they're both very good teams this year. So it should be should be a fun (00:02:11) afternoon. Are you pretty much a national college basketball writer at large for the Post. Do you have a beat per se within that or do you just kind of go to see what you (00:02:19) want? I am the national college basketball writer and I'm working on a new book right now, which is going to Chronicle one season in college basketball which sort of fits neatly into what I do for the post and one of the major characters that I'm following their about a dozen of them during the season is Danny Manning along with his dad Ed who's an assistant here at Kansas. So this being a big game and Danny and Ed being a major part of the book. It just makes sense for me to be (00:02:47) here. So you're wearing two hats really today you're writing for the post and working on stuff for the (00:02:51) book. Right which has been pretty much the way it's been all basketball season doing that doing wearing Three Hats really because the to those two plus with the paperback of season on the brink out. There's obviously been work to do. With that also, so it's been a hectic but fun winter so far. (00:03:07) Well great. Let me give out our phone number once again for those of you with questions for John Feinstein about Bobby Knight college basketball or whatever is on your mind today, two, two seven six thousand the phone number to call here on ksjn to get through on sport Foley 02276 thousand and of course if through some ionospheric freak, you're outside our area code six. One two, you can call us collect 6122276 thousand. Well John we talked to you a year ago. Mr. Knighted refused to talk about the book with you has he consented to talk about it since (00:03:36) know he's been consistent J.G. He is still not spoken with me about about the book or about anything else for that matter. I've seen him several times subsequently, obviously including at the final four last year and I was at their Kentucky game in December this year, but no words have been spoken. (00:03:55) It's got to be kind of ironic that you're almost making a mini industry out of Bobby Knight to mean it when Bobby does things and Lord knows how he how he does things. I always get to see your name in the paper regarding a (00:04:06) comment. Well, it's really funny because he pulled his team off the floor against the Soviet Union literally the same day that the paperback was first appeared in bookstores. And a lot of people last year were going around saying that that night and I were just putting on a show that we were actually in cahoots because as you say every time he does something it all seems to work its way back to the book and after that incident, I began to think that maybe it was true and then somebody just forgot to tell (00:04:36) me now. Am I correct that you actually at least a couple of different points along the line offered night to part of the the money from the (00:04:44) book. Well, when we first when the night that I proposed the idea for the book to him which was in Lexington Kentucky and March of 1985. I said to him very simply look whatever I work out financially I'll do whatever you want. We'll split the money or whatever you name it. And of course at that stage neither one of us was Thinking this is going to end up being a national bestseller. And he just said no. No, I don't want your money. Now what I've done because I thought it was the right thing to do. I made a contribution to Indiana University on my own even though it wasn't part of the deal. I just thought since the book made far more money for me than I ever dreamed that that was the right thing to do (00:05:27) to the athletic department or the (00:05:29) night has a big interest in there in the library and has been interested in played a major role in fundraising for the Indiana library for many years. So I made a contribution to the library (00:05:40) fund probably help them buy a couple copies of the book to let's hope so we've got some callers on the line standing by to talk to John Feinstein of the Washington Post author of a season on the brink and if you'd like to get on with John, our phone number is two two seven six thousand and we have a caller waiting in Shoreview. Hi Mark. (00:05:57) I have a question. So yeah, if Bob and I understand is quite volatile and if he treats his players on one hand, you know cool fashion making them go into the locker room and spend two hours and on the other hand the next day. He will praise that player. I wonder what keep the stain from being schizophrenic. Yeah. That's a really big question. I think the only reason that they all survived all of that to answer the broader question, which I think you're asking is they know that the kids that do survive and not all of them do some of them transfer but those that stay understand that everything he's doing is for one purpose and that's to make them better players and that if he makes them spend two hours in the locker room looking at some awful tape one morning or if the next day he tells them they've done a good job as a result of something. He knows that all they all know that all he Trying to do is get them to play better. He once said to me that he thought the coaching was simply a 24-hour mind game to try to get the kids to play better (00:07:10) the other question that the mark kind of asked at the end of that John you might not have heard. What was who picks up the pieces when when Bobby does things to his players mentally? (00:07:17) Well, that's also a good question. It's often the assistant coaches. There are each assistant sort of has informally has players that are designated as his quote unquote either because he was involved in the recruiting of the kid and developed a relationship with him before he came to Indiana or because he's worked with him one-on-one and the gym or for whatever or just strictly for reasons of personality and if Knight gets all over a certain player. He might very well say to one of the to the assistant who's closest to that player go see so and so and talk to him and calm down and and often one of the assistant coaches does the soothing if it's a particularly major incident, for example, the incident in the first chapter of the book where he just Utilize Darrell Thomas verbally in a locker room one night. He sent con Smith who was then one of the assistants back to talk to Darrell immediately thereafter, but then two days later he called Darrell in himself to talk to him about what had happened that's rare though. Usually, it's just an assistant (00:08:16) coach given nights expectations for on-court performance for off-court behavior and his own personality John. Could you kind of like to find what an Indiana recruit has to have I mean, how narrowly does that? Does that Define the kind of kids he can look at? (00:08:33) Well it does it does it certainly Narrows the group that that are going to be recruited. There are certain types of players. For example, Derek Chivas who I'm going to see play here today from Missouri who is an excellent player who could never survive playing for night and night. He wouldn't want to play for night and night wouldn't recruit him. Derek is is a hot dog by his own admission and enjoys playing that role. That kind of kid is not going to survive in the Indiana program a bad student someone who has no interest in going. The class is not going to survive in the Indiana program. But I think more than anything to survive in the Indiana program. You have to be two things one. You have to be intelligent and to you have to be very (00:09:11) thick-skinned and I suppose just by that alone would pretty much narrow down the field and the (00:09:16) kind of tapered roller high school basketball how spoiled today's top athletes are especially in football and (00:09:22) basketball have you found that there are many kids that are willing to develop a thicker skin in return for the the benefits of playing for night both in what he can do what he can teach and the quality of the program that he's (00:09:34) built. There are kids who are willing to try because they look at the results. They look at what nights kids become as players and their parents look at the fact that virtually all of the nights players leave Indiana with degrees and those who do not go on to the NBA and that is of course is a majority usually go on and do very well out of school in business or whatever. I Indiana has to be one of the few schools in the country. We're two of the team doctors are former players for that same coach (00:10:04) through their Physicians, right? Hmm. John Feinstein of the Washington Post is our guest on sport folio this afternoon here on ksjn 1330. I'm J.G. Preston John here to talk about his book a season on the brink season with Bobby Knight and the Indiana Hoosiers and talk about college basketball because the on John's on that beat for the post. So whatever is up your alley today, I'm sure we can find a way to make room for it to to 76 thousand. Our phone number here on ksjn to 276 thousand will get you through with John Feinstein John how have you worked it out for yourself personally to do the ends justify the means for night. (00:10:39) Well, it's really a close call J.G. I think that that you know, I don't think there's any way you can excuse an incident like the Soviet incident. I thought that was perhaps the worst thing night is done in the sense that throwing the chair in 1985 was certainly stupid but that's all it was. This was beyond that this was an Of total arrogance in the sense that when he was given the third Technical and ejected. He in effect said to the official if I'm not in this game, there is no game in other words. I'm bigger than the game and and second. He quit and for bob Knight to quit is just boggles my mind that he would ever do that and third and perhaps worst of all is that he did all this knowing full? Well that he would he go unpunished that Indiana the school wouldn't dare touch him and that ABA USA which administers Olympic basketball in the country wouldn't dare touch him and that's exactly what happened when that happens. I really wonder and I really think that he's gotten too big an effect certainly in the state of Indiana and even in the game of basketball more generally, but beyond that again, you have to see the good qualities. You can't argue with a good qualities there there. I wish there were more programs in the country that were run the way night runs his program where if a kid doesn't go to class. He doesn't practice that sort of thing where you know, That there's no chain of cheating where when something minor like the Steve offered incident happens where offered poses for a charity calendar in which he got no money and which the calendar was strictly being put together to raise money for charity. But even as minor is that was night called the NCAA and turned Indiana in for that minor thing. I wish more programs in the country were run that way but I then on the other hand wish that night while doing all this would somehow let go of all of that emotional baggage but at the age of 47 that's not too likely to (00:12:31) happen because clearly the two of them don't have to go together and he does not have to have that personality to achieve those ends. (00:12:37) No, he doesn't accept that. He always has and not being a psychiatrist. I can't explain to you anymore than you can explain to me why he does these things and what was really saddest about it? I think is it the people who are closest to him and who care about him the most can't explain it either and therefore can't get him to stop doing (00:12:56) it before we go back to the phones John. Could you just briefly describe? The Soviet incident we get a lot of Fairly casual sports fans that listen they're not have read (00:13:03) about just in brief. Indiana was playing the Soviets. We're here on an exhibition tour which they do quite frequently in the month of November. They come in and they play various top college teams and they were playing Indiana just as they had done a year ago and Indiana had won the game a year ago, but this time the Soviets were winning fairly handily and there were a couple of a couple of bad calls. All right, there were bad calls that went against Indiana and night flew off the handle was given three technicals by the referee Jim Burr that carries an automatic ejection when Burr whistled the third technical night said to him if I'm ejected, the game's over my team won't play and burst said is that finally so that's it. I'm not lie, you know if I leave there's no game for went and signed the score book forfeiting the game to the Soviets night took his team off the floor in the game ended with 15 minutes still (00:13:53) left. So the game was actually called before night left the (00:13:56) floor. That's right. That's right. Once he said, He told her that he would not leave and the rules say that when you receive a third technical, you must leave and and when I first said to him, if you don't leave the game will be forfeited in night said that's it. I'm not leaving sober went and forfeited the game took some guts on burst part to go ahead and do that right there in Assembly Hall in Bloomington. (00:14:19) What has the local reaction for Bobby been (00:14:22) local reaction was predictable on night apologized for the incident, but it was a typical night apology in the sense that he he said, I apologize to our fans because they were entitled to see a 40-minute game not 25 minutes. He didn't apologize to the Soviets. He didn't apologize to a be a USA. He didn't make a general apology saying I'm sorry. I represented my country. So poorly it was a very narrow apology and privately he's told people he again just as with the chair incident. He's rationalized it that the guy was a bad official I've had trouble with him in the past this and that and on and on but he did make an apology and as a result everybody and it virtually everybody in I said, well he apologized and what's the big deal? I mean and that and when the incident comes up people kind of shrug their shoulders and say well, why are you bringing this up? What's the point the point is that until somebody does something and says Bob you can't do these things. They will continue to happen and they will not only hurt Indiana her the game. They'll also hurt bob Knight. (00:15:22) Our phone number here on Sports folio is 2276 thousand that's 2276 thousand John Feinstein of the Washington Post Our Guest this afternoon 18 minutes after 12 o'clock and we have a caller standing by in Minneapolis. Hi Scott. Thanks for calling. (00:15:36) Good afternoon. You hear a lot about what happens to former Indiana players and how well they do. I'm kind of interested in former assistant coaches particular on because I graduated from Duke University a couple years after John and interested in Coach K out there. Well, what kind of attributes this this is an assistant coach pick up from coach Knight and what how does that Fact is coaching. And what do you think about techniques that he teaches and also if you let me know how it's going to do this year, I'd (00:16:08) appreciate it. Okay, that's the important part. (00:16:12) Will Scott is you know, Mike krzyzewski's a at Duke is probably the most successful of many not former night assistance who's gone on to be head coaches and he has had many of them. I think at one point there were 12 former night assistance coaching as head coaches in division one. There are a few less now, but people like Dave Bliss at SMU Don devote, Tennessee and a number of others, but Mike is the most successful and I think what he's done first at Army and now at Duke is he's taken what night taught him as a coach and there's no better teacher as a coach in terms of learning how to coach man-to-man defense motion offense giving the kids discipline taking the principles of that you go to class or you don't play that sort of thing. With him, and he's managed to leave behind that emotional baggage that I was talking about. Mike is as stable. And as solid a person as you'll meet anywhere, it's very ironic the two years ago after Duke lost the national championship game to Louisville in Dallas, which was no undoubtedly the most disappointing defeat at Mike's career night called him every day for a week just to make sure he was okay kept calling and saying Mike are you? All right. Are you all right and Mike was all right. I mean he was disappointed of course, but Mike had it in perspective. He said we lost the game we but we had a great year. We have a terrific program. I'm a good coach. I have my wife my three kids life goes on night would have been so destroyed by a defeat like that that he related all of those feelings on to Mike and just assume that Mike wasn't okay, and in fact my quads and it's sort of ironic to me that that it was she she asked who kept having to say coach, it's alright. I know we lost an eye. It's a point but it's all right, but that I think to answer your last question. Duke is very good this year that they're deep. They're of course very well coached and you never know. What's going to happen in March. You never know. What's going to happen with injuries, Kansas. For example, just lost a key player this week in Archie Marshall and that really is going to hurt them and if Duke were to lose a Danny Ferry or Quin Snyder or Kevin Strickland or Billy King that would hurt them a lot. But if they stay healthy they have a chance to be very competitive in March (00:18:30) as John Feinstein of the Washington Post author of a season on the brink a year with Bobby Knight in the Indiana Hoosiers. I'm J.G. Preston in the program is portfolio here on ksjn 1330. Our phone numbers to 276 thousand say John of night success is a coach roughly. How much would you attribute to his motivational skills and how much to his teaching ability? (00:18:51) I think it's a combination of two of both of them. He isn't he learned the game from the best coaches. He made a point. I'm doing that he went and sought out as a young coach people like Pete Newell Claire be Joe lapchick Henry. I bet his college coach at Ohio State Fred Taylor. He learned the game from those people and one of the things that I found over the years is that the best teachers are usually very good Learners and night was clearly a very good learning. You can tell that when you when you see him talking to people who are in another profession because he ask very good questions and he listens and he learns a lot he can learn more in an hour. I think than most of us learn in four or five and you turn that around and he can teach very well because of that but he's also a obviously a great motivator you don't win three national championships in 12 years without being a great motivator. Sometimes you might question his methods the Mind Games that he uses on the players, but clearly over the years more often than not those methods has (00:19:54) succeeded. We've got some caller standing by to talk to John Feinstein here on sport folio will Minneapolis next hi, Steve, you're on (00:20:01) high. Where does Bobby Knight to most of his recruiting? Well for years Steve he be limited it to the Midwest virtually all the players Indiana recruited from when he first went out there in the early 1970s until almost the mid-1980s came from Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan that area of the country but in the mid-80s when they begin Indiana struggled a little bit in the Big Ten began to lose some players to schools like, Illinois, Michigan. And Iowa among others. He began to broaden his recruiting base. Now. He has two kids on the team from California Dean Garrett and Joe Hillman. He's recruited in Florida. He's broaden the base. He still recruits largely in the midwest, but he's brought his group is recruiting base in about the last four years quite a (00:20:50) bit. How much does night actually actively recruit John and how much of the recruiting is done form with kids coming to the (00:20:56) program? Well, it's um, for example, Steve Alford was recruited with one phone call to his father. He night called up Sam offered who was also Steve High School coach and said, we'd like Steve to come to Indiana Sam offer told Steve and that was it and of recruitment. Obviously, that's an exception but Dean Garrett who's the starting center on the team right now committed to Indiana without ever having seen the campus one visit to California and he made a commitment but night in the last again three four years since he realized that he was losing players to other coaches and no matter how good it is. You are you can't win without Talent has stepped up his involvement in the recruiting. There was a period of several years from about nineteen eighty-one 285 where he led the assistance to most of the recruiting and it did not go very well. So three four years ago. He began to get very involved. Once again (00:21:51) 2276 thousand our phone number if you'd like to talk to John Feinstein here this afternoon on sport folio. Go to Roseville next. Hi John. (00:21:59) Hi. My question John is is similar to the one that was previously asked and it's in reference to recruiting and I noticed on this year's Indiana basketball team. I watched the game on television the other night between Indiana and Iowa, I noticed that there were two kids on that team Keith smart and a kid by the name of Jack low who were both from Kansas this keep smart. I'm not sure if he's a native of Kansas, but I think he played for Garden City Community College, right and there's a kid that came in at the late stages of the game by the name of Jack. That I'm not sure if he's a freshman but he played for sewing the South right and I was curious because I'm originally from Kansas and those are the first players that I can ever remember playing on an Indiana basketball team and I was just curious how night got them. Number one and number two how they got past Larry Brown, right? Well Smith and Jack, excuse me, smart and Chad Lowe are part of the junior college experiment which is no longer experiment and experiment. It's part of the program. Now that night began in 85 as I said when he realized they were not getting the kind of athlete he felt they needed to have to compete in the Big 10 one of the ways. He expanded his recruiting basis by looking at junior college players Keith Mars from New Orleans, Louisiana and was only 5 foot 3 as a High School Junior and ended up going to Junior College in Kansas. And that's where he was spotted by by night in two years ago and came in as a junior last year. And of course made the shot that won the national championship. Todd jablow is from Kansas was only six six as a high school senior and as very good student, but because he did not have many major division one offers. He was recruited by Kansas and Kansas State, but they were not willing to commit a scholarship to him. So he decided to go to Junior College and again there he was spotted by Knights assistant coaches and they brought him in. He's right now a fourth year Junior because he redshirted last year and one other player who also came out of Barton Community named named Andre Harris was a went to Indiana out of the state of Kansas two years ago, but he flunked out of school and he's now at Austin Peay as a (00:24:13) senior John. Can you talk about the the J Edward situation in Indiana? I guess Jay was one a night's Top freshman recruits this year from the state of Indiana and he's been bounced off the team has he (00:24:23) well, he's academically ineligible (00:24:26) by University standards are by Night (00:24:27) standards both at this stage night will not Throw a kid off the team for night can and has thrown kids off the team, excuse me for missing class in this case. Jays grades were not good for a semester. He is apparently going to sit out sit out this semester. And then after that semester decision will be made on whether he'll come back to school in the fall and the so if he does well academically if he does better than he did for a semester the decision will be as much chases. It is nights in the schools. But only time will tell on that. (00:24:58) Okay, two two seven six thousand our phone number here on sport folio with John Feinstein Don in Mounds View. How are you? I'm fine yourself good. (00:25:07) They have got a two part question being familiar annoyance seen Ron felling take a number of schools to the state championships. I was wondering if he was still on the coaching staff at the Indiana and whatever happened to Ube blob. Okay. Well Ron felling is very much still on the coaching staff in Indiana as you mentioned. He was a coach in Lawrenceville, Kansas a high school coach 14 state. Been ships there and retired from coaching for two years at very young ages 43 at the time and night knew him through having recruited some of his players and asked him to join the staff for the 85 86 season. And Ron is now one of the two full-time assistance along with Joe be right and a very key player in the Indiana program over a blob is playing in the NBA right now for the Dallas Mavericks. (00:25:58) The actually playing or is he the 12th man? (00:26:00) Well, I use the term loosely. He is on (00:26:03) the NBA right just like Steve Alford who's in the NBA and hardly played a lick hazy. (00:26:07) Right? He's played very little since he's gone out there Brad Davis is one of the better point guards in the league. I know Steve wants to be playing more but time takes care of things. I think Steve offered Will Be an Effective NBA player before he's done. Really? Yes. I do. Maybe not in Dallas maybe elsewhere but I think he can be a good third guard come off the bench and shoot the ball for somebody I said that last year so far. I've been proven wrong, but I'm not giving up on him yet. (00:26:34) I haven't had a chance yet. Really we can't say you're wrong yet John. Well, let's hope John Feinstein of the Washington Post and author of a season on the brink a year with Bobby Knight in the Indiana Hoosiers is our guest on sport folio this afternoon. I'm J.G. Preston got some caller standing by the will get back to in just a second and our phone number if you'd like to join us as to 276 thousand 2276 thousand it's coming up on 12:30. This is the news and Nation service of Minnesota Public Radio ksjn 1330 Minneapolis st. Paul (00:27:03) that time has arrived in America for the Democratic party to get out of the Shadows of states rights and a walk forthrightly into the bright Sunshine of Human Rights (00:27:16) Hubert Humphrey at the Democratic National Convention in 1948 that speech launched an extraordinary political career. It ended three decades later with Humphries death back home in Minnesota. Ten years ago this month. He taught us all how to Hope You know how to love? how to win and how to lose He taught us how to live. And finally, he taught us how to die all this month be listening for a series of special reports as Minnesota Public Radio remembers Hubert Humphrey whether you agreed with him or not. We think you'll find our reports a fascinating look back at one of the Century's most significant political figures. That's remembering Hubert Humphrey all this month on ksjn. Back to the phones with John Feinstein here on sport folio on ksjn to 276 thousand of our phone number and we'll go to Minneapolis. Pete. Nice to have you with us. (00:28:22) Hi John. Yes, just finished your book and enjoyed it very much my first thought when I concluded it was I was just wondering how often night might have jumped all over you when he was in one of his foul moods and said something stupid and then turned around and saw you standing there with your tape recorder. Well that never happened in the sense that he never turned, you know gelded somebody or got on somebody and then turned around and saw me with the tape recorder and went. Oh my god. What have I done? There were a number of times when he he and I had shall we say disagreements one of them took place in Minneapolis, ironically one morning when Indiana had played at The night before and the team had flown up to Minneapolis and that night and the next morning at breakfast. One of nights friends who many people in Minneapolis know Sid Hartman came in to join night in the coaches for breakfast and as we were walking out sit turned to me and he said well, what are you going to do today and night remembers was in a very bad mood because they've been blown out at Iowa the night before and so I said to sit I'm just going to do what I do every day follow night around which I thought was a fairly innocent comment and night just turned on me and started screaming. How dare you refer to me by my last name, you're 17 years younger than me and you have no right to show such lack of respect Bob went on and I just stood there looking at them and then realized that I was just getting it the way the players get it when I'm in a foul mood. I did that happen very often. Now it did it happened. I'd say they were inside there about three incidents like that during the solute. That was another Morgan. How long has your yelled at me for bringing a cup of coffee into practice, which I had done 07 T Mornings in a row. Up until then but that particular day the coffee was Defensive but really for the most part I tried to be as unobtrusive and as invisible as you can be when you weigh a hundred eighty-five pounds and most of the time I was able to do it. It (00:30:25) John did you literally record hours and hours worth of the just stuff a day. (00:30:30) Well wasn't hours and hours worth. What I did was I when the coaches met I recorded that whenever he was speaking to the team. I recorded that and during the games. I recorded everything pregame halftime talks when the coaches went out in the hallway to talk and postgame talk. So there was a lot of tape as the season went on. What I tried to do to stay organized was every night go home and and transcribe the parts of the tape that I knew I wanted to use a lot of it was obviously redundant but I tried to transcribe what I knew. I was going to need when it came time to sit down and (00:31:04) write and that had to make for some pretty long long long days. (00:31:08) Well it did. But again my social life in Bloomington was not such that there were people pounding on my door demanding that I go out with them. So I had a lot of free time at (00:31:16) night. Do you still have many of those (00:31:18) tapes? Oh, I've got them all do you really? Oh absolutely never raised any of them? No. No, I Erase them partly because especially as things turned out with night not liking the book it made sense for me to still have the tapes and also years from now. I may want to go back and listen to them. (00:31:34) Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that if you ever spend the money you make from the book there might be another project there. John Feinstein is with us on this portfolio this afternoon two two seven six thousand is our phone number in Minneapolis we go. Hi Steve. (00:31:48) Hi. I enjoy the show. Thank you for question. What's the Sporting Community thought on the University of Minnesota and our situation and bringing Clem Haskins and just like your thoughts. Well, I think everybody realizes that that what happened in it during the 85 86 season the incident with the three kids in Madison and Jim Duchess resignation basically brought Clem Haskins in pretty close to square one and in a league like the big 10 square one is not where you want to be when you're trying to compete and I think there were some positive signs last year they took, Indiana. Overtime down in Bloomington just this week. They took Illinois, which is a very talented team into overtime at Williams Arena, but it's going to take two or three years realistically for Clem Haskins or any coach whomever. It is coming in in a situation like Minnesota's or northwestern's or Wisconsin's to recruit the kind of players you need to compete in the Big 10, and as people often here with program starting from from the bottom when you're rebuilding patience is the key and if Minnesota fans are patient and Clem Haskins is patient. I'm sure they will get the program back where it was in the in the early and mid 1970s. (00:33:00) I tell you John. I don't know that we can at least from from the Minnesota standpoint analyze and evaluate Clemens a recruiter yet, but I think as a as a motivator and as a bench coach in is a teaching coach. He just really strikes me as being (00:33:13) outstanding. Well, if you look at that the job he did it Western Kentucky again, that program was not doing very well when he came in he is clearly the kind of guy and that's I'm sure why The school hired him who can build a program from the bottom up. (00:33:28) John Feinstein is with the sons portfolio this afternoon. I'm J.G. Preston and you're listening to ksjn 1330 24 minutes before one o'clock and then after one Mark Heist and we'll get into the week in review Force now John, I'm told that a season on the brink is the best selling sports book in history, even before it went into paperback and we don't have to go in any gory details here, but I'm also told you've made a lot of money off the book. Now. I had Frank Deford a Sports Illustrated as a guest here last summer and I guess for lack of a better word. He seemed kind of jealous of your success. I mean, how do other Riders treat you now? (00:33:59) Sorry to hear that about Frank since Frank is somebody who I've looked up to since many years. (00:34:03) It may have been tongue-in-cheek, but I had at the time I had the feeling that it wasn't entirely (00:34:07) well most people and including Frank when I have seen him have been really good about it. I obviously there is some jealousy. I think that's a natural thing on a natural reaction on people's part, but for the most part I think My colleagues have looked at it that here that I'm one of them. I've paid my dues. So to speak on the bead over the years that I've been doing this now for ten and a half years since I got out of college and that that you know II don't know how to say this without sounding egotistical but it wasn't a fluke in the sense that it wasn't a book where somebody just sort of handed it to me on a silver platter. I went I spent six months in Bloomington and I worked and it was it was a major undertaking. I took a leave of absence from my job. There was a gamble involved in it. Nothing was in writing between night and me. So if he'd gotten angry at me one day and thrown me out the whole project would have been in Jeopardy and it just worked out better than I could have possibly hoped. So I think for the most part other guys in the business of looked at it and said, well gee it's nice that one of us did have this kind of success and you know again, I'm sure there is some jealousy but I think that happens in any profession when somebody has a success (00:35:28) it's hard not to admire the book, but I guess in your case the the monetary value became so much farther beyond anything else has come out of the sports world that raised some eyebrows, huh? (00:35:38) Yeah, I think that's true. And and obviously there are people make a lot of comments and there have been a lot of exaggerated reports about how much money I made I've seen some figures that just blew my mind. I wish I'd made that much money, but I you know, I did make a lot more money than than I'd ever dreamed and a lot more money than my yearly salary will ever be at the Washington Post. So I mean I'm delighted by it and but I guess the bottom line is I don't feel as if I need to apologize for it either. I feel as if as much as anyone can earn that kind of money I earned. (00:36:12) Mmm, John Feinstein is here on sport folio with us and we'll take some more your questions for John 82276 thousand and standing by A New Hope is Mick. Hi Mick. (00:36:22) Hey guys, how you doing? Good good. I haven't read your book yet and got into it. But I'm I'm from the Chicago area living up here now, but play Hoops pretty much all my life and I just wanted to share with you guys a A little incident. I had I went to Bobby I went to Bobby's camp in 75 when I was down there in Chicago area. So we went to Bloomington and we know they were really grueling sessions are in the field house and and a lot of what you've been saying. It just brings back some incredible memories, but one incident which was kind of interesting with it, you know, they're about 200 campers were out. There was after the morning session and night had wash your chefs key was there coaching and a few other coaches from around the country and we had about a hundred fifty two hundred campers after the morning session were sitting down there in the field house and then night walks in and you know gives us all look and he said he asks us yes, how many how many people how many people have learned something today raise your hand? Well all of us raise our hand and turned out that there were two guys in the middle of all these campers that you know, you figured he's not going to see these guys what he thought and he goes you guys got here right now and he calls the call the guys up there, you know, they're freaked out these poor guys, and we were juniors in high school and he was Really freaked so call these two guys are doing because you haven't learned anything any they didn't they were there so scared. He said Robin are touch the backboard so they ran over there barely touch the backboard come back out of breath. Have you learned something? No, they couldn't say anything of do it again. Slap them on a rare and boom they did it three times. Finally. There are two breakfasts is go sit out. And then he said now I have you learned something this morning and boy those guys just threw their hands right up. They are it was it was something Are Forever at night after the after the sessions. We after the evening sessions would watch our Indiana films and stuff like that. But my opinion on Bobby Knight and I don't know maybe it's I know players have changed in there as you said more coddle nowadays, but it maybe it's just because I'm very Midwestern but it seems to me that night was very awe-inspiring even in his disciplinary ways. And and yes, you had to be very thick skin, but you know we perform for him and I and I you know, I don't know. What do you think about that? Well, I think everything he says true you have to be fixed. Then kids do perform for them. And I think all is a good word. He can Inspire. Awe. He is an intimidating person because of his intelligence because he is unpredictable because he is intense and to most people I think because of his size maybe not to to to all basketball players, but you got to realize you're talking about a guy who's almost 65 and weighs 230 pounds and or sometimes more and I think that is a factor in the night intimidation Hey listen, thanks a lot. I am looking forward to reading your book go out and get it. Okay. Thank you. (00:39:09) Appreciate the call. Mick got a caller standing by in st. Paul now for John Feinstein. Hi Barb. (00:39:14) Hi. I just have a wonder if you could comment on the power in general of the NCAA. They have in all the investigations for instance the investigation at Minnesota going on almost two years kind of affects the recruiting for the coaches, doesn't it? Could you comment? Yeah, well my feeling on the NCAA and and their enforcement division for years has been The same which is that it's undermanned understaffed underfinanced and and very inefficient. I think the Minnesota investigation is one example, but a better example is the University of Kentucky which in 1985 was the subject of a major Series in the Lexington Herald-Leader a series which won the Pulitzer Prize for the 22 writers who produced it in which 26 former Kentucky players admitted on the record with their names attached to the quotes that they had received payoffs during their time at Kentucky. And that's October of 1985. It is now January of 1988 and the NCAA has yet to come up with anything after the thing was literally dumped in their lap by the newspaper. Now somebody could explain to me why that is so then they are a far more intelligent person than I am. Not that necessary takes that much but it baffles me. It also baffles me why with with all the money that the NCAA schools From television. They just signed a contract a contract with CBS last year that will produce 55 million dollars a year for the next three years if they really want to do something about cheating and about enforcement. Why don't they take five million dollars Which is less than 10 percent of that money and put it into enforcement and instead of having 25 people working in the office have 500 people working in the office. So that any cheater knows that behind him looking over his shoulder maybe an enforcement officer from the NCAA as it is now people who want to cheat no a you probably won't get caught and be if you do get caught it's going to take the NCAA so long to sort the whole thing out and do something that by then you might have walked off with a league championship a big for final four appearance a national title Clemson did it in football. They won the National Championship in 1981 with bought players. They got put on probation three years later. But big deal they already had their National (00:41:37) Championship John is the NCAA really motivated to do a good job. (00:41:42) Of course, they are I think that there's a sense that we're going along here. We're making money left and right it's sort of like, why mess with the goose is laying the golden egg. I don't every time you go to the NCAA convention. They're all these proposals that will would allegedly make things better in terms of making it harder to cheat and harder to give payoffs and they get voted down the president's Council which came to into existence three years ago is the biggest joke in the history of sports and it's not surprising to me that that counsels run by John slotter The Chariot Chancellor at Maryland who to me is one of the great Hypocrites and college sports today because after the Len Bias incident when bias died of cocaine overdose, he fires the athletic director fires his coach says he's going to tighten up academic standards brings in a new coach and then promptly loosens academic standards at Maryland and let's in kids who couldn't get in before. For Len Bias died and now I mean perfect example, they had a proposal on the table last year to make freshman ineligible make them go to school for a year proved that they could go to college and then play Varsity Sports. The president's Council voted it down. Why because it would cost more money if you made freshman ineligible because then you'd have to have freshman teams. And so instead of thinking what's best for the sport what's best for the kids. They think what's best for the pocketbook. So, you know, it doesn't surprise me in that sense that all of this goes on and frankly. I don't expect anything to (00:43:11) change it's funny and yet there were there were freshmen teams 20 years ago when there was a whole lot less money on the table for all this (00:43:17) stuff exactly right? There were freshmen teams until 1973 and if it could be done, it's just that people don't want to pay out the money somebody I wish somebody would explain to me why colleges need 90 football scholarships a year when it only takes 20 24 men to produce starters and special. On both sides of the football I still don't understand it pro teams get along with 45. Why did the college's need 90 (00:43:42) because they can get 90. (00:43:43) Well, absolutely. Absolutely there's and there's a proposal on the table at the NCAA convention this week to allow you to sign 30 kids a year to scholarships rather than 25 and all that will do is increase the money that's being spent and also increase the number of players that will be run off because if you signed 30, you're not going to use all 30 you may use 20 over the next four years. And since you want to use those scholarships, you're just going to run the kids off (00:44:10) 2276 thousand by the way is our phone number with John Feinstein of the Washington Post. I'm J.G. Preston here on sport Foley 02276 thousand if you'd like to get in a question for John look we there are problems with cheating at a lot of schools. There are problems with enforcement. How do you personally respond to that John? Do you want to do a better job of enforcing the rules that exist? Do you want to change rules? Maybe loosen things? How would you I'm going to make you the Czar of Was basketball now go ahead and give us you got you can start from (00:44:38) scratch. Well, as I said, the first thing I would do is I would take a huge amount of money and increase the the money spent on enforcement in terms of budget in terms of people that their by a hundred fault if I could I would also try very hard to Lobby Congress for subpoena power one of the problems. The NCAA has is it for example in a case like Kentucky's they can't force the kids to talk to them who have admitted to the newspaper that they took payoffs if they had subpoena power. If somebody could go to jail for perjury himself by lying to an NCAA investigator. Then things would be a lot different than they are now, I would also there are there certainly rules changes. I would like to see I would like to see less scholarships and football. I would like to see the rules maid uniform somehow in terms of Eligibility. I mean, there are some schools. A kid can flunk two courses and keep playing there are other schools where if he gets to DZ can't keep playing on. I don't think that that's fair. I think there should be some uniformity. I think there should be more rules made in terms of losing scholarships. If kids don't graduate. This is something that was proposed by Bob Knight years ago and I agree with it that if you have for kids who should graduate in the class of 1988 and none of them graduate, then you lose for scholarships the next year think that would give coaches a major motivation to see that their kids get to class and have a chance to graduate (00:46:11) and basically all this comes back to your support of the the student-athlete model the amateur athlete (00:46:16) model. I believe in that I do not believe those who say that we cannot run college sports with amateur athletes that they should be paid. I think there is enough proof out there that there are programs like Indiana's like Dukes like North Carolina's like Notre Dame's that can put Student-athletes on the floor and be very successful that we don't need to cop out and just let the kids be (00:46:41) Pros back to the phones here on sport folio with John Feinstein will go to South Minneapolis. Hi, Bob. How you doing? Good. Good good (00:46:48) show. Thanks. First of all, you were saying something about about the Indiana program. Is it? Are you seeing it as a model then for a good student athletes? I think there are there it can be used there are aspects of it that can be used as a model. I don't think by any means it's the model think there are as I said, there are others that do it do it. Right, but I think that the simple notion that when a kid arrives at, Indiana He knows that if he doesn't go to class if he doesn't perform academically, he's not going to practice and therefore not going to play. I wish other schools would copy that there are other things that night does in his program that I obviously don't approve of you know, but, you know you're talking about about night in this personality and the way in which he he dramatizes things. Don't you think in a lot of ways he's struggling against a system where lots of other people are going in the other direction and he's trying to set up a sort of a perfect program in order to be able to maintain that kind of Drive. He's got to be an emotional Peak all the time. Well, I think you know to be honest with you. I think that that you can do the things that he does especially at this point in his life when he is Bob Knight. He is on such a level that he doesn't need to maintain that intensity at all times in order to retain the respect of the kids in the program. He's going to have it just by showing up now. That doesn't mean I think he should sit back in a rocking chair and let let things run their course. I think he should still have his hand in the program because he built it and if he stops having his hand in the program, it will not be the same but I just think there are things that he does with the kids and with himself that he doesn't need to do in order to still be the great coach that he is. Well you're looking for some degree of maturity and maybe it's not his time to mature yet. You might be right and and maybe it'll happen next year or the year after and and who knows I just hope it happens very soon because I would hate to see him go out like Woody Hayes, right? But the question I was going to ask was about the NCAA initially. That's why I called the NCAA has lost a great deal of its power because the nature of losing its ability or strength over over TV contracts and I think it's lost a great deal of money there too. Because the individual universities are now negotiating for themselves under under the NCAA NCAA umbrella. Do you know anything about that? Well it certainly it lost some power when it lost the the right to be the exclusive. For television rights in football. You're correct about that. But again, I the money is still going to NCAA member schools. There is a misconception out there that the NCAA is some entity just sitting there in Shawnee Mission Kansas that is a whole and a part from everything else and with in college sports the NCAA performs at the behest of its member schools, those member schools the ones in division one in football and basketball for the most part with some exceptions are making a lot of money. They're making it largely through television, but also through ticket revenues through bowls or the NCAA tournament, whatever they are operating in the black if those members schools chose to take some of that money and then for example, take away 10 football scholarships per School how much money would that save a year? Roughly a hundred thousand per school if you Play that by a hundred football schools. What have you got 10 million dollars? Yes, I agree with you entirely but I was just I was talking about the NCAA itself is an organization hasn't got the tower the school's do the schools had the power that could absolutely correct but schools don't want to relinquish that and they want to maximize their profits that least they're people that listen what I was saying my point being that they do not want to mess with the goose that is laying this golden egg for them. And that's why I believe the the abuses that are going on are going to continue to (00:50:46) exist. Due to seven six thousand is our phone number with John Feinstein here on sport folio about seven minutes before one o'clock. We got a few more minutes time for a question from a you perhaps for John. We have a question from Minneapolis. Hi Linda. (00:50:59) Hi. I just like to comment on I'm wondering why Athletics in our universities and colleges don't consider professional Athletics as a viable academic track, I think because they don't or haven't been willing to do that athletes really aren't getting the kind of training that they should I mean there they should be being prepared for the business of being a pro athlete and then courses you wouldn't have all of these conflict of interest kinds of things of college is making money on them and whether athletes should be paid etcetera Etc. Would you comment on that? Are you talking football and basketball? I actually am talking All-Pro Athletics wherever there is a post college program. Okay, I think okay, I think realistically you're talking. For sports. Well five if you include tennis. Well, you're right it could there are a lot of people tennis golf football basketball Hockey baseball, but I think that especially in the to quote Revenue Sports in college football and basketball. These guys are prepared to be Pros in many ways starting when they're in high school. And the problem I think is the opposite that most of them come out of high school into college with their mind set on the fact that they're going to be professional athletes. Most of them are not going to be professional athletes and the problem of the ones that run into the most serious problems are the ones that set their minds on being professional athletes ignore everything else in college and then when they can't be professional athletes because they're not good enough for it because they get hurt in some cases. They do not have something else to turn to I think that is is a larger problem. I think it would be good if coaches. And people involved in college programs could say take for example a Kansas a kid like Danny Manning who is certainly going to be a professional athlete next year if there were people around and I think there are a Kansas who would help Danny to deal with what's going to happen when he becomes a pro next year. I think that would be healthy, but I think it's a much larger problem dealing with the majority of college athletes. Well over ninety percent of them who are not going to derive an income from Sports and prepare them to deal with Life After College when they're no longer (00:53:20) athletes. John will you do me a favor? Will you look into your crystal ball and tell me what you see for Bobby Knights for the rest of his life. And (00:53:28) how is that think I can see what's going to go on for bob Knight in the next week much less the rest of his life. I would say this. I hope that he does achieve that level of maturity at some point that the earlier caller was talking about realize how much he has going for him realize that he doesn't need all of these incidents that keep occurring try to get it learned to get away from that sort of thing and just be the great basketball coach that he is because if he can do that he can coach another 20 years, which is what he loves to do most and he can leave basketballs the winningest coach of all time and I think deep down that's what he would like to do. He's got 477 winds right now and Adolph Rupp finished with 875 if he coaches another 20 years, he'll break the record and why shouldn't he do that as great a coach as he is. (00:54:22) Would you strongly suspect in that he'll finish his working career as the coach at Indiana? (00:54:27) Again, I would answer that by saying I hope so. I think you have to leave out there the possibility of a Woody Hayes type ending as long as incidents like the Soviet Union incident continue to go on there may come a day whereas Digger Phelps once said about him. He said I worry that he's going to be Douglas MacArthur that at some point the president is going to say General you're relieved of your command come home and I hope that won't happen but you have to realize it's a possibility because of the nature of the man. (00:54:55) You don't think he would voluntarily though go to another school or the (00:54:57) NBA. I don't think he'll ever coach anywhere but his Indiana, I think he's very happy. There. He is a God in the state. This is where he lives. He is a Midwestern person. He has no desire or interest in coaching in the NBA. I think as long as he's a basketball coach, it will be an Indiana (00:55:14) as long as we have a few more seconds John. Would you give us Feinstein's first five your top of the crop for college basketball. This is (00:55:20) long as you understand that I'm always wrong, but I think right now you have to in terms of looking I always look tomorrow. In the team's I look at in March our teams like Arizona Kentucky Purdue duke-north Carolina Syracuse (00:55:38) John. I really appreciate your coming on and once again, we I really enjoy the season on the brink and best of luck with the new book what we see it in the fall. (00:55:46) It'll be out right around the starter basketball season J.G. And as I said, it's just Chronicles this season right through the final four and it's been a lot of fun to go around the country and deal with all these different players and coaches and see all these games and I hope it'll be fun for people to read (00:56:02) great John. I really appreciate your time. Thanks very (00:56:04) much. Thanks for having me kg (00:56:05) sure thing son. John Feinstein of the Washington Post author of a season on the brink a year with Bobby Knight and the Indiana Hoosiers here on sport folio. My thanks to associate producer Sue winking forgetting all this set up to Alan Searle for coming in and doing the grunt work of answering the telephones, even though he has management and a Jeff Walker our technical wizard in Residence next week here on sport folio. My guests will be University of Minnesota wrestling coach Jay Robinson. I'm J.G. Preston. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week. This is the news and information service of Minnesota Public Radio ksjn, 1330 Minneapolis. St. Paul coming up next world and national news from the Associated Press. And then Mark High state has the week in review. It's cold out there bundle up coming up on one o'clock here on ksjn.