What I'm going to do is give you a very quick background. on the character to stands before you and it was not by accident. I suppose that I arrived at this International quest for stolen Hot and Antiquities fraudulent Dot. My own art career came to an abrupt standstill when I was about six years old. I failed out in the first grade Miss Winter more. I failed to paint the sky blue and the grass green and I received it. Big goose egg on my paper for it, but I made an early decision in life, but the sky was just not blue and the grass was just not green and I haven't changed I think have to thank her more than anything. After that brief setback growing up in South Brooklyn, which is the odd capital of the world. Was in early 50s street gangs were very prevalent at that time. And you had to either join a gang of be very fast runner. I choose to do neither. So being resourceful the next few years. I painted the colors on the backs of some of the most infamous gangs in New York City in the colors being those emblems. You see proudly displayed, but this gave me Real entree into the art world now with this fantastic beginning. I think when I was truly recognized as I finish painting my room. Black I had a nice apartment within my family's home and they were very proper people dad's a banker. So if you can and I painted the ceiling black and as I finished and he they hadn't seen it yet. I should go downstairs and carrying the can of black paint. I tripped going to the basement the paint hit the wall. And I looked and here it was just dripping. I stood back viewed my dilemma and had to make a very heavy decision at that point to make a vain attempt to cleaning it or sign it. So now you can understand how such a personality it was. Now the early 60s. I was extremely successful as success goes in the art world. I was having my one-man shows Museum shows Gallery shows selling doing quite well, so I do what any other self-respecting artist doesn't a time of turmoil. It was a time when a lot of the youth were going north to Canada. So being myself, I joined the army. I wasn't there very long. They decided that I was court-martial material. It never came about in fact, I had received somewhat of a decoration instead of the court-martial that's the military for you as a result of this New York City Police Department observed this fine young American which had got a little press and they invited me to join and that's how it all began here. I am in the New York City Police Department. I showed up with shoulder-length hair. They looked at me and said, what are you doing here? I show them the invitation they had sent me. And they really did have any place for someone like myself because I refused to cut my hair. I thought so I wound up going undercover. I spent 12 years on the cover, which meant very simply I didn't have to change my lifestyle very much. I was about to leave so it's now 1971. And I was going to pursue my own art Korea. Once again full-time. My reputation hadn't been ruined because being on the cover. Nobody had known I was a police officer. And this opportunity came up to do a study on off theft and all I'm supposed to do is spend a week or two before I left and they said well, it's a nice thing you do. You have a background in Ott. do the study and leave at least, you know, you can well instead of handing them a report. I started handing recovered off works. And that began the beginning of what was to be known as the Auto Recovery Unit the yacht team the whatever after 12 years, it had ever been legalized or recognized as a unit within the police department, but it functioned internationally. Just study was supposed to be more or less for the police structure to protect themselves in the event that anything ever did come up people with to say what have you done about and they would pull out this report that I had handled. The may be years before and said, oh we did a study on it. There's been no problem. It backfired on them. I'll give you a few very quick facts about off that auto theft is only second to narcotics activity as an internationally committed crime. Considering it started never existed. It went from nowhere to that prestigious position. The less than 10% of all stolen artwork internationally is ever returned or should say ever recovered a small percent of that 10% is ever returned to its rightful owner for a number of reasons. The author Thief at the beginning was just a thief who may be turned his attention to stealing art and Antiquities. So they're always been those true off themes of characters that we think of those Cary Grant character Robbie and To Catch a Thief and that kind of individual. So this year becomes a terrible problem, but law enforcement was nowhere in any position to deal with it. Give me an example in comparison the average theft from a bank. That's the thief somewhere in the area of $1,300 in cash. The average a theft per item. That's the thief about $25,000 breaking down to about fifty thousand dollars per incident. Theft becomes a very high profit low risk area. So it's attracting some of our finest young thieves. I was thinking about doing seminars. In fact, I had been requested a number of years back. By an organization not a not organization to possibly being consultant to them because what they were finding at the early stages of this attempt to specialized area criminality that they were making mistakes. A thief would go in and steal an object and not know very much about it. There was a fence broke no offense, but those people who have lived very good lives as an individual who deals in stolen property. He is the middleman between the thief and reintroducing it to society. Well, we had a fence who lived in Brooklyn and for many years. He had a very good occupation going receiving color TV set stereos toasters or whatever the thieves would bring them. Came that day his life changed burglar shows up and displays to him. What at first appeared to be. He put it in Statue. He was going to turn this individual away because he had no knowledge on it. But his lady friend who was standing in the background and even the fence has to please his lady friend this we all know and she said I like it. He bought it. But the thief also saw that there was an outlet with such things because his girlfriend like them well within the weeks to follow he would receive some very very strange works of on Antiquity some of them ranging from plastic cast of the bust of Elvis Presley to Remington bronzes. So this man had to somewhere along the line develop an expertise which he did. He began going to libraries attending auctions learning what exactly is good. And what is not the thief now appears at the door one day? And he observes and he says don't you ever bring the garbage like this? Well now the word goes back out to the street, but he's just not a fence. He's a not fence. Now what is the thief left to do he has to educate himself? So the thieves begin to educate themselves and their at the auction houses and are attending possibly in the lecture Halls like this. We see any out there. So what we have now was just great development within the criminal Empire of the thief. Well this fence did so well that he moved to a better neighborhood and a larger home and it was a time that the police had gone in they had received her obtained a warrant. They went into arrest his gentleman and I was asked to accompany them. And when I arrived on the scene this gentleman recognize me from some previous, press exposure and he looked at me and he said, you know Volpe He says I'm almost relieved to see you walk in here. And I said Why and he said to me while since I've become a collector I've lived in fear that some bum would someday come in and steal all my valuable possessions. Well, we did a thing that had never been done before we had had a public auction for all this for auction. That's a terrible thing to some private Enterprise. Now you see in my head works. We had a private showing of such things so that the victims could come and view it. Along with the 1200 people that showed up. The first day was the fence with his attorney. He took one look at everything and he said it's all mine. Here's my attorney. Where do I sign to make claim to it? And he said then of course you would be my witness in court that I was in possession of it. Very sad moment. The man took the Brazen step to go on the result was that he had received back most of the items, which were with 1,300 items are returned to him because he was one of the few people as a collector that could positively identify the art and Antiquities in his possession. Are you talking about? Losing your property twice. They were people then I said, well, I know it's mine and they couldn't substantiate it. So these become very important aspects. Now the way I do my talks, I keep them try to keep them in the formal. You don't have to wait till the end to ask a question any time along if you are is a question raise your hand interrupt. I have no train of thought so you're not going to interrupt it, and I find it gives a much easier and you'll go away possibly knowing something and I'll learn something from your so as I say, don't be bashful. Don't be shy just raise your hand and if I don't have an answer for it, I'll make one up. Now acquiring collection is possibly one of the most important things you'll do. And it has to be done, right? Because remember if you acquire a stolen work of odd. You never can have clear title for it. The second if you buy a fake. It's a fake today. It'll be a fake always. So it's very important. In that selection process to know who you're buying from to know what you're buying to ask questions. Most people want to go buy an automobile. They are so many questions. They want to know everything from the type of interior to whether they're going to get mag wheels on the car and the color tone. Is it going to match and yet they buy works of art side them sight unseen some situations or with no expertise in the field. They're either wind up with stolen artworks. All questionable pieces there was a very famous situation started to place in the southwest and the major collection was lost and I was contacted and I was supposed to investigate it and they called me and they said, mr. Bobby. Would you be interested in flying down? And I said, well what was stolen they gave me a list. I said we have a problem here. I said you may be the thief and they said excuse me. I don't understand us who all the pieces you've just listed in your collection five of them. I know a presently hanging in the Louvre. Well, the three million dollar collection, which was stolen. Were fakes. That isn't enough of promise, but you know how law enforcement thinks, you know insurance companies think you know the IRS thinks. Here's his poor individuals already been ripped off a three million dollars. Because he bought fraudulent odd now loses. It is insurance company thinks it's an insurance fraud the police department joins in and so does the IRS. So that becomes great difficulty the fact that individuals have the desire to possess and the funding to possess does not mean they have the knowledge to get involved in this Arena. It is quite complicated beware of being singled out as a buyer those individuals that approach you with a fantastic deal that a newly discovered Rembrandt and of course, they travel throughout the country to find you and I ring your doorbell. Hello. Would you like to buy a Rembrandt? I hear you're one of the finest collectors. That sounds funny and we laugh it happens. In fact, I'll show you how cunning some of these are thieves are. I was approached number of years ago by a group very impressive credentials and they came with a bound book of research and individuals who had worked with them on this project to authenticate and major piece which had recently been discovered and I was going to use my expertise is they said to help them and of course I was being cut in for a ten percent which would have put oh, maybe a hundred fifty thousand dollars in my pocket the way they spoke. Now we all have Brady goes but I should they coming to me because they found a new Rembrandt no way. It turned out it was fraud con game had taken three years to plan and they invested themselves over $50,000 in printed material and binding of books to put off this elaborate hoax and they would have been successful. But the I think what they did their own egos got involved. They figured well, it's going to be a grand scam. Let's throw him in let's get Volpe involved because he's gonna be so embarrassed. He might have protect us. So that's the the extent of some of these things will go to. Now, of course, you're maintaining your collection, which is what we call paranoid time you get a little paranoid at this moment. Now you have properly purchased the collection. It is legitimate. There are no violations of patrimony. There are no violations about it being stolen. They're not fakes. Now you have this fantastic collection. What is the first thing you're going to do with? Sure, it second thing you might want to do is put a great alarm system in. Step 1 and 2 and losing it now there any people in the insurance game out there alarm come to this is that the when they start booing and throwing things from the order? Now I'm not saying you shouldn't be insured because it's very important to be insured and also an alarm system. But remember how carefully had to be an acquiring that collection. You better select your insurance company. And you better select your alarm company. The same care there were no stats have a kept on this and I devised the form and I started keeping all this little information to try to find out who the victims what had taken place with auto theft. How many people are alarmed insured came out with a interesting situation? The most losses take place. From private Collections and we're talking here in the United States to change this internationally here in the United States 40% of the losses take place from private residence. Another 40% take place from dealers galleries. Do my math remaining 20% ten percent of that would be museums. And the remaining 10 corporate collections churches cemeteries, and these are areas that people didn't really look for off theft in. So now we have this breakdown of who are the victims. We started also noticing things like the most people that were ripped off have alarm systems and they were insured. Now with this because most people want to have insurance fraud and no that's not it and then you get the occasional situation. But in not choosing the alarm company properly you've invited individuals into your home and you've said I must protect this. I have three million dollar people love to turn around and see how much they have to protect their collection and they turn around they marched the individuals from the alarm company around I say you can see why I'm frightened. This little piece here is worth $40,000 and that piece of porcelain is where 20 and that's not that we have hitting up the attic and you protect the attic to and we travel an awful lot. Well, the reason why you call the alarm company because your insurance company said you have to have an alarm company. and the insurance companies they want all this great information from you. They want to know what kind of alarm system you have because if you don't have when you have to pay higher rates now you get all this great information on you. Oh you habits everything about you? All your paintings all your Antiquities list it which they didn't do it one time now, they're doing it. And document it value and everything and that's all put on a computer. Great, isn't it? I mean here we have 13 year old kids tapping into NASA's computers. What do you think that doing to the insurance companies? Also early I had mentioned that the you organized criminal element had approached me legitimately to be a consultant to them. You don't think they have their own computer experts. So now they're sitting with all this great information. But what I found was the easiest way for this information to find its way to the street and some of them have two situations. We are traced it back. It's Friday night the insurance company the young lady who was Clerk there file clerk. She has a date. She doesn't want to spend Friday straightening up a day. So she takes this whole pile of information. She puts it on the incoming basket to be filed Monday morning, the cleaning staff comes in and they browse around because smart people especially when on the street they may be paying $5,000 $10,000 for such information. They walk over plug on the copy machine and they make copies of it. name address type of alarm system value of paintings what kind that information on the street leads to a whole new kind of criminal theft to water Now we have any questions up to this point is everybody really comfortable, but he's all want to go home and check your collections. Yes. There's somebody that's a very pointed quite that's a question. Somebody knows some answers to most Museum related to and I said most are inside situations disturbing disturbing when you tell it to the museum officials the last eight out of ten that I investigated in the New York area. We're in house situations. You have mysterious disappearances from inventory that most never come to the attention of the public. You have the obvious theft. There was one of our great institutions, which I'll eat late and leave nameless. On Fifth Avenue in Manhattan between AT&T and they suffered a terrible loss. Of a Greek head the Greek head that was stolen one of its characteristics is that it had a small heart carved over the right eye. In investigating it is found very simply that it was an in-house situation and I usually try not to get too involved in it because what happens you get involved in the politics inside and it's like, you know, the old town Tamers in the old west when you tamed it too much. They threw you out and they ought to hang you. Well, I didn't want to do too much but I did tell him it's an in-house thing and it was near Valentine's Day. It was a love affair going on in the museum and just just what happened. The piece was returned with a hot carved over the other eye and it was a personal statement made which was later found out it was an in-house situation. So those are problems which are very difficult to deal with inventory losses and such but what we're seeing now. Is also disturbing where the criminal has turned his attention to the Museum's. In the United States throughout Europe in Europe where they lived with their artwork, it was in their churches smallest town churches were open 24 hours a day with fortunes and not words hanging. It's not the same if it made any recent trips. The doors are locked. Well, the church is open and there's nothing hanging on the walls because the thieves have turned their attention. They have no respect anymore for there are no boundaries. Houses of worship cemeteries museums were always held as a taboo to the thief it was above them not to the art Thief. It's just a means of getting your works. So what we've seen What took place recently in Mexico City? I'll be flying down there. I've been working with them closely on it. But again the problems go much deeper. The thieves are knowledgeable. They knew went to go in they know what to take and they know where it was going. So what back to that Steph to order situation most losses from museums? Of thought out there planned. There are a few that are not. Chicago Art Institute a couple of years ago lost a few Cezanne was only three of them they were kept in the broom closet. When I received the call and I didn't mean to be sarcastic, but somebody said to him and I said, where were they stolen from? They said a storage facility? Being involved in the Arts all these years a storage facility to me does not mean a locked Vault. It could mean a broom closet when I said what else was being kept there. They said well some ladders some Pals some mops brooms. Now, it's hard for me to realize Whether the broom closet was used to store odd, or vice versa. But there were 52 Keys has to that room and I sarcastically they said that to them. Lock up the porter. About few weeks later. He was arrested. He had called up. He had worked there for many years. And in the same voice you didn't even disguise his voice to attempt to have somebody else cool. He tried to Ransom the pieces back. They recognize them they call them by name over the phone. He confessed and he came in problems problems in attitude of security. And an attitude of security becomes very important because with the themes going for theft to order their cutting out the middleman. They don't have that problem of calling up and saying would you like your awkward back? They've already found a legitimate buyer for it? I don't know how many people are aware of what took place in Budapest Hungary Thanksgiving two years ago. No one was possibly the largest off that than in history now why he has a lot of fuss being made what took place in Paris 14 million dollars. I think what really happened that a fuse went in with guns. And we have to something romantic about guns. I mean if you go in with guns and it makes headlines for four days around the world. they stole 40 million dollars from the Museum and Budapest Hungarian national museum two of the pieces involved with Rafael's it receives possibly no attention whatsoever the theft and the recovery less. But now we're coming into something we're talking. When they steal here in the United States that there's no violence attached to it was a good chance. They have no record or even if they do they're never going to see any jail time if they're ever found out. However behind the Iron Curtain, even though Budapest is one of the free of the satellite countries. The penalty as it was discussed could possibly be a fast death her very long life, which you would wish for the Youth. They went wrist a death penalty. They went up against. border patrols attack dog Bob wires and security system when I say security system not talking about the security system in a museum. I'm talking about the system of security within the country. The museum didn't have a security system. They had an alarm which hadn't been working for some time and even if it had been. I'd say could thirteen-year-old burglar from New York to Beat It. Millions of dollars no protection for it. But again the theft of water. It had been commissioned by an individual has been named has not been indicted. Most likely will not be. the very wealthy man Greek known as a collector known as a business entrepreneur and he commissioned people to go in there going on the premise and that because it was behind the Iron Curtain wasn't going to get too much attention given to it though. They were going to try to handle it internally. The surprise came. I think when they made that phone call, they called me directly here in New York. They are not New York, but they're in New York and they said we've had a problem with your fly over. Thanksgiving day I arrived after a brief detour in London And they just said to me. What do you think having the main reason I was brought over is to I think like a thief and this is something they had found out to do great research on it. It's also confident to know that they had a great file on me over there. They even knowed my they knew my street name my code name on the street. so when we talk about intelligence gathering information And they said Well, we'd like to know what happened and I did I reconstructed the crime some of it based on experience some of the based on some of my own fantasies. And the first thing I had told him the Italians did it. Now I can get away with that being an Italian. You can say that and I didn't have anybody but they looked at your kind of strange, you know, you come into your name a group that's the way to start. It had a certain Flair to it after working all these years in this you find that certain thefts have certain characteristics to them. This one was done by the Italians. I also told them about the theft of water and they said well, what are some of the reasons behind off theft now? We're getting to hold why? Theft all of a sudden what are the motivations for why are people doing it? Well high-profit low-risk. We had brought that out. So it is profit involved. Ah theft has been linked and I proud to say establish some of the links but when I did them they were very disturbing to law enforcement Community as well as the art community and it wasn't too many years later that now I hear them being some of our super agencies now say two statements and are very proud to say them because almost 15 years after the fact it's safe. It's been established but often have just linked to narcotics. movement throughout the world it's Tied to terrorism now, these are disturbing things especially for the French. They're very concerned what took place with that loss because it's goes deeper than an author. Odd related crime has been utilized to fund terrorist activity. So it's not that the characters are changing. But just don't have the thieves involved. It's being used in payoffs and major narcotics transactions. Now if anybody wants to leave the country With most 834 million dollars. Are you going to do it in diamonds Cash Gold cocaine? These are things that if they're not illegal across if you are found with million dollars in cash leaving the country. It's going to some people are going to ask questions. But to prove this I started traveling and I got one of my own pieces from my own collection, but a piece that I had borrowed from Friends collection, and I traveled freely declaring it not declaring it improperly declaring it around the world and never questioned. And the piece was valued at over a million dollars. Because art is duty-free. So coming into our country. Well, we're not to you know, get those pair of friend shoes. It did Duty on them. But don't bother tying yourself up with the on Antiquity because it's duty-free in and out. Now certain countries will restrict not what you bring in but what you bring out. So now we have this whole Theory internationally. Well, if you're bringing it into the country are autistic worth is going up if you're leaving the country with it. It's wrong here in the United States. We don't care either way in or out we approach auto theft as it's a commodity. It's an item in Europe and most other places. It's a cultural crime. Any questions at this point? Yes. You know, I see I know the question said come fantastic. Where does the stolen art go to? I suppose one of the most disturbing things and one of the things we always hear is why if they steal it? What are they going to do with it? I mean everybody knows about the peace, but nobody knew about the pieces from The Budapest theft. You weren't goes goes right back to legitimate art community. Most art that is recovered is not recovered in the hands of the thieves. in all the years and all the millions of dollars in worth of on Antiquities I've recovered if you're lucky you'll recover it in the hands of a thief if you have that half an hour after the theft and still find a running down the street with it. Those recoveries are made. From galleries auction houses private collections museums every legitimate outlet for art and Antiquities it is that quick a turnover. The thieves have educated themselves. They know how to now me to steal a lot and we must separate themes from our sleeves anybody can steal anything but the steel lat you have to have a certain at least a street knowledge on what to take why take something that people can sell or you can't dispose of so, they have educated themselves and saying well, who am I going to steal from? What am I going to steal? What do I do when it's in my possession with the how I properly care for it? But the most disturbing factor is that they have developed the know-how to reintroduce it to the Art Market and I don't mean a ten percent of its value. I mean at its market value because a small thief and they learned the hard way you can't sell a piece worth. - Tori for that now we have to also feel sorry. We feel sorry for the victims of author now think of the thieves dilemma well Go back to New York now Lower East Side, which is not exactly a high rent district. couple individuals local burglars headlines two and a half million dollars stolen from truck in SoHo disturbing headline the events that led up to that two thieves who had a contract to steal dresses from a dress shop needed a truck. They installing a truck just update the truck that they had stolen had a bad battery had died on the Brooklyn end of the Brooklyn Bridge. They walked over the bridge. Looking for a truck to steal they came across this clean new truck and they said well the new truck probably have the new battery. They went to open the hood to steal a battery to couldn't open because it was changed. So instead they broke into the wind a hot fire to truck and drove it away took it down to the peers. As a second thought they opened the back of the truck. And they found some interesting things. They found what they would later describe as pretty boxes. Which turned out to be Louise nevelson will Wood Sculptures? And they figured if the boxes of this fancy imagine what's inside them true they tore them apart. It was who I love that feeling like, you know, the reminds me of you know, this horror movies when half the Earth's being destroyed and nobody was watching it in a little puppy once across the street and get hit by a car and he audience goes off. So now they have all the doors open on the trucks that are utilized or not. If my name is Gene heisting had some bronze pieces which would patinaed they would later describe as green rocks, which they threw overboard. We found some paintings with footprints. Because they had to make their way to other fancy boxes. They eventually take some of these objects. And the battery that was the primary thing so they stole the battery put it in the other truck picked up. The dresses came back took some of the artwork the stuff we know is on Antiquity. It's now the 11 o'clock news and all of this is being related to Me Now by the thieves because we've have caught them and he says and I'm eating a piece of chicken and I almost choked on a bone. He says there I see you. Mr. Volpe talking about two and a half million dollars. And I realize we got it and we've been selling it. I got 50 bucks for this. I got a hundred bucks for that and I said to him, what did you do right after this? And he said what we went back out in the street and stole some more stuff for fifty and a hundred dollars. The fact that they had two and a half million dollars worth of augment nothing to them. They had a June roof a sculpture piece Element blue value that I think 80 and 90 thousand dollars is about 6 foot tall. They couldn't find an owner for it. So they put it underneath the stairwell. Where you couldn't leave a ten-speed bike for more than three minutes disappear, and we found that a cat had made it a home. And that's how we more or less broke this theft because somebody have reported. Seeing a blue T-bird driving along one of the Avenues which looked like a large Snowman on the roof and that led us to go this direction. Again, what becomes disturbing amateurs get involved in off theft? Much more destructive. Let's hope at least we have professional stealing the artwork. So it behooves us to educate them. They still it with hopefully no violence they care for it when they have it and they reintroduce it to a market and which it will surface. This particular theft is damaging because the works would not surface. The Works involved with damaged And also they didn't make very much money for their efforts. I mean, so we've got all these problem. So when we look at this whole problem of Aden and to and the theft related to it and the problems related to it we keep on coming back. Some major things is anything being done about it. What do we do about it? Does anyone really care? Off theft is more important than just the theft of property what we're dealing with here. Is our cultural heritage and that's we're going to see we're going to start viewing art Works through thick Plexiglas. laser projected images of some of the things that are being discussed So we're losing something. So it's a very important subject besides the fact that it has been tied to other elements of criminality. Any questions at this point? Yes. I'm sorry, whatever ventriloquist for me. I'm sorry. As I said in that particular case there was a theft of water. So they already had a buyer. So it wasn't necessary to fence it a fine an owner. That's why I was getting a pronouns to a work of art. Thieves are very smart in that too. If you can steal something fraudulent documentation comes very easy the themes in one particular case sold a Max current painting. Which in no way could have been? Reported to be a maximum that we just wasn't you didn't have to be an expert in the field. All you got to do is just check a book out and say well that's just doesn't look like the same artist but the crating was so fantastic that it was in. The thieves had taken a crate. And it made it a work of art they had put labels on it from all the major galleries hand-signed Max Ernst receiving it and shipping it out again. I was so impressed with the crate. And so was the individual who bought it. any questions Yes. What are the responsibilities well sadly, there are no responsibilities because it's virtually impossible okay to you have to prove intent if somebody's buying something knowingly that stolen possessing stolen property in itself is not really a crime, but you can be charged with it. It's kind of I'd like to believe that most people involved in the odds are legitimate. I mean using that old phrase some of my best friends are dealers. Some of the most steel is also and you deal with this problem in the sense that I delivered a talk and number years ago to one of the International Auto organizations in Paris and it was being translated into 13 languages instead of going over there and giving them this because I was talking strictly dealers and they were they had to because of this problem and I didn't want to Give him the so many thefts took place in this they all knew what was going on. So instead I gave them a code of ethics there was silence. It was almost a reverent response would I mean everybody just sat there to go to this beautiful 1 dealer raised his hand. He said that is absolutely beautiful. Most of all for he said am I the first fool that's going to do it. I'll be out of business. If you can tell me that the gour to my left and my right will also. Follow this code of ethics. I'll do it. But while I'm waiting for everybody else to get religion, I'll be out of business and what takes place is that we said less than 10% is ever recovered. We know the themes are not sitting with it. So, where is it? It's out there. So 90% of this stolen and question a lot and Antiquities are out there. In legitimate hands how many people? And I know we have to start looking into ourselves. I mean people who buy a fake do they say, oh my I'm a very prestigious collector and I bought a fake. Let me bring attention to this at the local paper and show everybody. What a fool I've been. No, a fraudulent workers discovered by the artist himself. Does he now turn around and say there was somebody brilliant enough to create in my image and sell it at a higher price than I've ever sold. He's not going to say that so you have all these problems coming into it. Well the egos all the personalities well the profit You may not be crooked. But you find yourself with a stolen piece. You're going to suffer the financial loss. Oh and the police are not going to say congratulations most cases are going to look at you. But have you got nervous, you know? So what's the best thing to do with it? Pass it on put it in auction. Isn't that a great place to get rid of stolen artworks? I went through an auction catalog as a study. I didn't have the time to do this on a daily basis and that getting the auction house to get very disturbed with this as well. They should. Not that they are. Guilty of any criminal the what? I think they're guilty of and again, I can't even say guilt because they possibly can't even prevent this they do such volume if they were to do research on each piece. The possibly never would have an auction. So while I'd say, they are part of the problem you can't blame them because it's just nature of the whole Beast. But I took this catalog and I went through it and I had a box of paper clips and every really did Heavy research on it. Have people helping me research people listen up pieces that were the stolen questionable or illegally removed from the country of origin. When I got finished with the catalog I ran out of paper clips and a cape because really I mean it was heavy laden wood paper clips. I'm talking out of a sale, you know, maybe 200 items to maybe 30 40 items Whip and one auction house one auction. So if you want to take the time and I don't think anybody wants to do that because you would really cause a lot of disturbance out there. So this 90% is out there. It will remain in its present collections not too much of it as ever discovered. So if you're sitting with questionable pieces, don't worry about them. There's a good chance. You're never going to be discovered. So go on show your collections don't you know? Yes. Wouldn't that make sense? Makes too much sense. Let me the question is the fact that the thieves are utilizing computers to find out information is not the art world doing the same thing to protect itself. computers mean accountability I don't know how much accountability the international art World wants. Some because it diminishes their important role in negotiating and supplying artworks. The other being accountability for income tax the accountability for wrongdoing you always have that great thing out then I just I'm not speaking from I've been involved in the art World from other aspects of it. I'm a curator of a museum myself. Not a museum of the Standing Tall. Believe me, but a very small little Museum in Sharpsburg, Maryland. I've been involved in buying and selling dealing. I played with auctioneering. I'm a painter. But the problems that exist in the art world is that nobody wants accountability and I can't blame them because this computer type of situation if it was handled by the private sector within the art world could be very dangerous. Because that's a lot of important information being kept. Who's going to watch dog that if you give it to the government? Now we got other problems. So do you now set up something where both people I had put a proposal in that if it was to be that it would be government civilian run kind of thing and it would have to do with reporting stolen off only stolen odd. Well, there is one agency that now boast having a computer that has stolen art into it in the last report. They had in excess of 4,000 but less than 10 thousand bytes was the most information I could get stolen artworks. When I left this I had over 400 thousand bytes of information on Stolen art in Antiquity. Now, nobody wants that awesome responsibility and tasks. So you're not going to see it. You're going to see some small groups doing it just to boast that they have a computerized indexing for stolen on Antiquity if they publish the book every month. You would receive a book with the printer size and the size of a major New York phone directory every month. In all the years I work they never utilize those things which law enforcement utilizes or that the premise. It's really not necessary because there's so much of it out there. You really not to be that good to recover. Doesn't say that that's not nice to myself, but what you have which is more important is a knowledge of the art world the general knowledge of Aden Antiquity knowing that if a certain piece of stolen where it may surface rather than all some many people knock themselves out silly, you know, let's pick up the trail and follow the thief well, that's ridiculous. I mean that's conventional law enforcement, you know, they spend months trying to track down a lead to goes nowhere. I sit back as I said thinking like a thief Arie commit the crime. Why did I steal is how did I steal it? What do they do with it after I had it? Where's the market for this and that only comes when you have a knowledge of the art world all the artists involved, you know these things and you start coming up with a personality of the character who stole it. You haven't seen them but you you build so now I say, well I'm dealing with an expert. What would an expert do I'm dealing with a novice. What a novice do. And I found that in many cases. I've jumped months ahead of an investigation miles ahead and going some my greatest difficulty in making recoveries was explaining how I made them. And it becomes difficult because again in law enforcement, they have to have an explanation. They always looked at me. There was another agency that used to look at me and figure that. I was behind all the art thefts. This is true. Their greatest catch would have been made because they felt he's doing it. We know he's doing it's great. He recovered it. They got tired of me recovering him from lockers and Grand Central Station from construction sites from basements and vacant buildings in Brooklyn. It works how we doing on time, you know because I have any time just we over. Okay. Give me 10 more minutes, you know, there's want to get out to that brisk weather one of my greatest recoveries. Patron of the art. She's making the rounds. I'm talking to the gallery director when we were interrupted and she says I'm just very happy to see Direction your galleries going in and he says, excuse me, and she says the minimum a lot which you have displayed. He says Madam we don't handle minimal art in a gallery and she says you do and she says in its poorly framed besides she takes him and they walk away. He comes back flushed it in a high pitch voice some people in the art world of known when things pressure comes on them. and he said my God will be with had a robbery what had taken place the thieves remove the now would be erstad landscape from the frame popped it out lift the frame hanging what the patron of the yacht was viewing was the wall showing through the frame the being a in a good art recovery. Has a wider scope to it, especially when you're a civilian on you think of and he says to me for people be what are we going to do? We've been robbed when am I going to do and I said first thing a lower your voice sell her the peace and recoup your losses. Thank you very much.