(00:00:00) I want to talk with you tonight about something that is very profound. And I'm afraid very complex namely how does religion and politics come together? How should they be operating in contemporary Society? There are generally three periods (00:00:16) of church-state relations in the United States. I'll just touch on them briefly here and then I'll expand and I'll expand particularly on the last one the last stage that began in 1980 (00:00:27) from the beginning of the Republic until 1945 or 1950. We didn't have many Church. They problems it was a pain Protestant society and the Supreme Court believe it or not had never litigated these questions then the trivia dance began in roughly from 1947 to 1980. We (00:00:45) had a period as we're going to come to see whether the Supreme Court issued roughly 50 decisions about these issues of the Bible in the school and Aid to church related schools in 1980 a whole new turbulence broke forth with the (00:00:59) Moral Majority. Already with the Catholic Bishops being more aggressive and articulate than before and (00:01:04) with all the radical right having an alliance with the White House for the first time saying that (00:01:10) we want Aid to church-related schools and we want to do something about getting religion back into the schools. (00:01:17) Well, I say to you that these are problems (00:01:20) and that we have to try to (00:01:22) resolve them as rationally as we can but then I want to say to you and especially to the students of this blessed place (00:01:28) that these are not really the greatest challenges that you're going to have. I hope that you students will think of the third (00:01:35) world every single day of your life. We are only 12 years away from the (00:01:41) turn of the century in the year (00:01:42) 2000 and by that time the population of the Earth will go from (00:01:46) five billion to 6.2 (00:01:48) billion more than a billion new human beings are brothers and sisters and obviously no planning is being made for them. So I don't want you to suggest or to think that because we are His eyes he hit a night the contemporary church State problems that these are the only things that we have to deal with. We don't as Christians. We have to look out at the entire world and say that if anybody is starving, this (00:02:12) is Jesus Christ himself who was starving as you (00:02:15) probably know there are 800 million people who are chronically malnourished before this time next week next Tuesday, at least 400,000 children will have died of starvation that is preventable. (00:02:27) There are 350 million children of school age with no children to know school to go to and that we are all (00:02:34) in this world together (00:02:35) and that that suffering should be are suffering (00:02:38) but let me come back to the church State focus in this country and then possibly come back to some of these problems because these are problems that are inescapable and unavoidable because we are human beings who care and because we are Christians (00:02:52) from the very beginning of our Republic the (00:02:55) Constitution has always been very favorable (00:02:57) towards religion, but it (00:02:59) A startling fact that in the 5500 words of the Constitution who's Bicentennial we are celebrating religion is not mentioned and God is not mentioned. And so don't let the radical right say to you that although there is all about God and we're supposed to be a Christian country. There is nothing about religion in the Constitution. That's one of the reasons why the founding fathers acquiesced and the twelve or Thirteen Colonies at that time insisted on writing the First Amendment and as you know that says two things there shall be (00:03:32) no established church (00:03:33) nor shall there be any interference with the free exercise of religion, they were written and the people observe their Spirit, but for a hundred and fifty years, this was a pain Protestant country tax exemption was given to the church's chaplains were appointed for the military and for the legislators there was draft exemption for the clergy (00:03:52) prayer was inserted into public documents Christmas (00:03:56) and Thanksgiving holidays, and the churches were given all types of Session such as the right to operate cemeteries from which they got a good deal of Revenue. If you are deeply interested in this area. May I commend to you a three-volume work by Cannon Stokes that came out in nineteen fifty and he summed up the entire history of America up to that time. There has always been a very strong intellectual tradition in this country that we want the separation of church and state and it comes from two sources Thomas Jefferson said that we should have the separation of church and state because he feared the churches. He did not want to happen in America what happened in the united in England namely that the churches at many times dominated the government whereas Roger Williams who was driven out of my beloved Massachusetts by the bigots because he thought differently he went to Rhode Island and established a new Colony they're devoted to for the free exercise of religion, but he to one of the separation of church and state why because he did not want the government dominated. In the churches, so I think therefore there is a very (00:05:02) strong consensus in this country that we (00:05:05) yes should have the separation of church and state but the key question obviously is what do we mean by separation? And where do we keep them apart in that pan Protestant era but McGuffey Rita was used in all of the schools with a very generalized pain Protestant morality and piety. The Bible was recited almost religiously and during that part time the Catholics did not fear very well. It was very clear that in many states as in as in New York with the blade of Memon the Catholic schools would get no aid for their schools in the 1850s. The Catholic Bishops came together in Baltimore and said that every Catholic parish must have a Catholic school and their parents had some obligation to send their children to those schools. They in other words. He opted out of the pan Protestant Arrangement and really with heroic generosity. They created a system of Schools which is probably unparalleled and unprecedented in the entire history of Christendom. There was great religious free exercise during that period and during all of that period all types of dissenters if you will a conscientious objectors were given permission by the law to follow through on their exemption the only exception to the free exercise given to various people (00:06:25) was the Mormons (00:06:26) and rightly or wrongly the Congress allowed Utah to come into the Union only after Utah has said that we are not going to allow the Mormon practice and yes the Mormon doctrine of having bigamy or polygamy during all of that period we look now back now and we wonder about this key question was religion was were the church's privatized during all of that period from 1792 1950 was religion locked out of the public school and was that in A very bad thing for America you look back and you look at the terrible things that the Americans did during that period think of what we did to the American Indians likewise think of what the United States did to Central America sending the Marines regularly and dominating that country and consider what we did to the Philippines when we conquered it in 1898 and kept it as a colony if you will until 1946 think of what we did to the poor for example in Lowell, Massachusetts. We have millions of people were ground down by laissez-faire capitalism. They were monopolies in industry and they're all types of social evils going on during the 18th and the 19th century and we look back and say well if the churches had had more freedom if the churches had had a better arrangement with the government would the some of those things be different we can be very proud of the churches particularly Protestant churches in America because of the abolition movement in 1800. It was very clear to as many Artisans that we are not going to live in this country when it has slavery and although we rejoice in the bicentennial of the Constitution. I think that we should note that the constitution was not a good document for the blacks in America it perpetuated slavery. It allowed the Congress or forbade the Congress rather to Outlaw the importation of slaves for another 20 years after the famous Constitution was written by the 55 men in Philadelphia's 200 years ago. We didn't straighten out slavery until the Emancipation Proclamation and even then it took another hundred years until 1954 before the courts finally said that separate but equal has (00:08:40) to go the churches I think were (00:08:42) admirable during all of that period but we're the church's admirable when they had the Volstead Act or the 18th amendment that ban the sale of all liquor seems to me that was an aspiration that should not have been put into law. There was really no consensus on that and as you know, it was repealed. But in retrospect can we say that there was a happy symbiosis during that period he wasn't very good period for Catholics at least for Catholic schools and that many Jewish people felt that it was (00:09:10) too Christian the whole (00:09:12) nation but that at least we look back and we say there was totaled religious freedom. The Catholics received were received well and (00:09:20) that in 1925 the Supreme Court did something really almost (00:09:24) spectacular in (00:09:25) three years prior to that Oregon had (00:09:27) outlawed all Catholic schools by a referendum of the people that carried 60/40 and the US Supreme Court unanimously came along and set aside even a referendum of the people and so the Catholic schools private schools have to (00:09:41) exist in America. (00:09:43) Well, let me come then to 1947 the beginning of the second era by that time the Catholics (00:09:48) were much (00:09:49) more articulate in America when aggressive they had four million or 5 million kids in Catholic schools. And the question for the first time before the US Supreme Court was this can we LOL bus rides to take kids to Catholic schools when they are not entitled or they're not going to the public school 524 the Supreme Court said that that is permissible Under The Establishment Clause, but they said in essence that is about as far (00:10:14) as we can go (00:10:15) and they made it very clear that they would be no substantive Aid to churches of less than Collegiate rank that were religiously Affiliated (00:10:23) the year thereafter the Supreme Court dropped the second (00:10:28) bomb in the McCullum decision where they said that release time religious education on the school property had to (00:10:34) be banned from the school property there began therefore in (00:10:39) 1947 and 48 this long Tradition now 40 years old by which the Supreme Court has consistently and coherently said no way to Catholic schools or church-related schools and no (00:10:51) denominational practices in the public school (00:10:54) in 62 and 63. They banned the Bible from the school and also the rest Station of any prayers simultaneously however, they were very good to the religious dissenters. (00:11:05) Jehovah Witnesses children were told they need not salute the (00:11:08) flag Seventh-day Adventist and sabbatarians got exemptions. Amish children need not be forced cannot be forced to go to school after the eighth grade (00:11:17) and preaches in the streets were given certain exemptions consequently. You have this operational (00:11:23) The Establishment Clause forbidding Age religion and the free exercise clause saying we're going to maximize the conscientious (00:11:31) the opportunities of the dissenters and the country enters objectives. (00:11:36) The Catholic laity have been very angry over the last two or three decades. They have said that we are good Americans and why should we pay for schools twice? They have gone back time and time again and that they have not succeeded. They're still angry, but it seems to me that that question at least for now has been (00:11:57) solved and much to the sorrow of many of us the (00:12:01) Supreme Court in 1985 524 set aside (00:12:05) a federal act of Congress going back to (00:12:08) 1965 that provided a limited amount of compensatory and remedial training for children in Catholic schools. It was a part of the anti-poverty program. It was carefully structured to avoid all church-state problems, but alas in 1985 that program that brought in roughly a hundred and ten million dollars in contributed services to Catholic schools was declared invalid. The Catholics are still angry Catholic lawyers are trying to devise a way by which the secular aspects of church leaders schools. (00:12:40) Could in fact be a (00:12:42) Student what we look back at the last 40 years and we say that is this a just solution. Certainly we agree. I think that the dissenters the Jehovah Witnesses should be given any concessions that are possible but we look back and there is intense intense anger and apprehension over this solution. Is this what the founding fathers meant? No Aid whatsoever to church related schools of less than Collegiate rank or and no religious exercises in the public school. All of this came to a head in the late 1970s when you had the so-called fundamentalist and the Moral Majority and Reverend Falwell saying no to both of those questions and they opted out of the public schools and they created probably 20,000 church-related fundamentalist schools in the South and the southwest and they also said that we are going to insist that the Bible be (00:13:39) restored and that (00:13:41) there be some New Morality In America that movement was understandable. It was joined by millions of Catholics and Christians and others. Why because in the 60s and 70s, what did we see? We saw the divorce rate climbing so that every third marriage now results in divorce abortion was legalized in 1973 with the result that we now have a million-and-a-half abortions each year in America. We saw a proliferation of Narcotics and pornography the escalation of crime and we saw public corruption in Watergate and people looked at all of them and said that the churches should have more power to influence the young people and if people want to opt out of the public schools because there's not enough morality there. They should not be penalized if they can run fully accredited schools likewise. They said that they should be some moral guidelines and yes the teaching of some form of religion in the public schools. They recognize the Constitutional difficulties. They recognized the churches were divided about this the National Council of churches that represents all of the mainline Protestant some 70 million people (00:14:47) they were perceived (00:14:48) as liberal by the religious right wing. (00:14:51) They were opposed to Catholic (00:14:53) schools getting Aid they were also (00:14:55) happy with the decision of the Supreme Court that there should be (00:14:58) no Bible read in the public schools nor should there be denomination of prayers recited but the drum beat in the last 10 years has been that there's too much secular humanism in the school and there is godlessness there and that they wanted a change in the in 1979 Reverend (00:15:17) Falwell somehow came to prominence and establish the Moral Majority and in 1980, he (00:15:23) and others did something that was a political (00:15:27) revolution. They (00:15:28) persuaded the people (00:15:29) in charge of the Republican platform in Detroit to change that platform and to come out (00:15:35) for church a to church-related schools by vouchers or by tuition benefits and also to put It into the political into the political (00:15:43) platform of the Republican Party a plank that (00:15:46) said we want Bible reading restored to the schools and also (00:15:51) reveal the recitation of some (00:15:52) prayers. They also dropped their 40-year support of the ER a the Equal Rights Amendment and they come out for the re criminalization of abortion contrary to Rowan Wade. So in 1980 you had for the first time in American history a total Clash on church-state issues in the election. It was the fundamentalist that probably helped Ronald Reagan to win. That's only (00:16:16) one factor among many many (00:16:18) factors. Clearly. The Democrats did not change that platform so that you had four people a choice not a political options, but our religious options and this clearly suede some Catholics to vote Republican because they said that that is the party that promises me that they will be some (00:16:36) relief for the tuition that I pay you in Minnesota, of course have a (00:16:40) very valid and a wonderful arrangement. I don't know how helpful it is in the real order but as you know, there is a deduction for tuition to Catholic schools (00:16:49) up to a certain (00:16:50) amount that was sustained by the United States Supreme Court 6 to 3. Three years ago (00:16:55) and that other states May copy that I'm not certain that (00:16:58) that's very much of a relief. However, and that in Men in Massachusetts and Rhode Island there (00:17:04) inspecting that I commend the (00:17:06) creativity of lawyers and people hear some 30 years ago when they said that yes, we should give some type of Equitable relief for people who send their kids to Catholic or to Lutheran Schools, but we had starting in 1980 a whole new era of church day relations. And this is my (00:17:24) third era and that the Moral (00:17:26) Majority and the fundamentalist had frankly always been outside of the religious consensus in America. They had not participated with the National Council of churches in the great ecumenical movement. They do not participate with Martin Luther King in the drumbeat of the churches for equality for black people and we look back over the last seven years and we say well what has happened in our lifetime (00:17:51) or in this seven years, and that should we join? These people who want a different arrangement for church and state. They have not been (00:17:59) successful in the last six years. Nothing has happened frankly in those on those issues the Congress tried to restore Prayer by reversing the Supreme Court. It didn't even clear one house. As you know, a constitutional amendment needs the two-thirds approval of both houses and in the ratification by three-fourths of the states nor has there been anything done on abortion the peep some people want a constitutional amendment of The say that's a bad idea. It has not moved out even at from the subcommittee in the House of Representatives nor has anything happened on some of (00:18:33) the other issues and (00:18:34) that we look back and say well is this a (00:18:37) minority? Frankly, I think the Catholics (00:18:41) would gaining in public acceptance for their claim that we have some right to federal or state aid for the secular aspects of our Catholic schools. I think that we were persuading people with The ecumenical movement and fair-minded Protestants and non-believers were saying well the Catholics do have a claim and that they were beginning to understand that we could point to other nations where in a pluralistic democracy Catholic schools always receive very substantial aid, for example in England all the Catholic schools in the Anglican schools and the Jewish schools get 90% of Maintenance and 60% of replacement likewise in Canada, and now Australia similarly in France and Belgium and Holland, we are the only major democracy in the world that says only the public school is the school that can be financed by the government. I think we were gaining until this third era and then all of a sudden people in the Congress and in the country said you If we give some Aid to Catholic schools, they were going to help out all these fundamentalist with these schools all through the South and Southwest and the answer is yes, and that they would be getting Aid we would be increasing and perpetuating this with a new Schism and enthusiasm or whatever enthusiasm there was (00:19:57) for the claim of the Catholics and some Orthodox Jews and some Lutheran's (00:20:02) all of that. I'm afraid (00:20:04) has been damaged in the last six years now that we're falling these people they have a right to come forward and say what they want, but I have a lot of questions here (00:20:13) without answers (00:20:14) and I'm giving to you as students and his concern people (00:20:18) all of the anxieties that (00:20:20) have come to us acutely over the last six years. (00:20:25) We have been thinking up to that time probably of our own claim (00:20:28) and then we were sincere about that and we were advocating in the Bishops were pushing forward and there was some movement towards our way. I don't think the Catholics particularly felt that a prayer in the schools the public schools. Is that important they weren't necessarily thinking that we have to get the recitation of the Bible back. They realized in a pluralistic society many people are opposed to that. but we're wondering now we're all of this will go and whether in 1989 with the new Administration, whether we're going to go back to that consensus of 40 years and whether people will settle down and say that we think that in America Under The Establishment Clause, we should say that this No way to church-related schools and no sectarian practices. My dear friends, I can't tell you exactly what's going to happen. All I know is that Catholics now have moved into a period of Greater maturity than we have ever had before 52 million Catholics in America constitute 24% of the population Catholics are better educated now than any group in the United States including Protestants and possibly the Jewish population. A majority of the Bishops have been appointed after Vatican 2, and I think that we have new pride in being Catholics. I think particularly we have new Pride after the Pastoral of the Bishops that was ratified four years ago this week in Chicago. As you know the Catholic bishop spoke out with virtually no dissent saying that the nuclear weapon may never be used offensively or defensively and that is possession for the purpose of deterrence may be tolerated only for a time and only on the assumption that a clear plan for phasing out all nuclear weapons is being developed. I think frankly that we have to confess. However that the Catholic Bishops were in my judgment not courageous when they refused to endorse the Equal Rights Amendment. I'm not particularly proud of that record all of the Protestant Bishops with the exception of the fundamentalist endorse the Equal Rights act as you know, it failed ratification and only 35 of the 38 States necessary and that I hope that when it comes back the Catholic Bishops and the Catholic lady will say that yes, we are constitution does not provide for equal protection equal rights for women, and that is a serious defect. (00:22:59) Willie economic pastoral (00:23:00) that has come out more recently. We allowed have some effect on the population. I'm certain that it will I was thrilled the other day to read that a valid poll put out by the national opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago said that opinion among Catholic since the past Iran nuclear warfare has shifted up to 25% towards what the Bishops have said, which is clearly a strong Catholic tradition going back to Saint Augustine. I was thrilled also that the National Council of churches which as I mentioned represents the mainline Protestants they without even being asked for years ago came forward and endorsed (00:23:37) explicitly the result in the reasoning of the Catholic Bishops on (00:23:42) nuclear warfare. Therefore you have in America a very new moment. You have the Catholic Bishops with the Protestant authorities joined by virtually every Jewish group saying that our foreign policy is fundamentally flawed. God and they we cannot go on relying upon massive Mutual assured destruction or massive retaliation. In other words that there is something fundamentally immoral about our foreign policy. I like to think therefore that there is a new era that has come about in the very recent past and our lowest (00:24:21) still trouble about these technical legal and (00:24:23) constitutional problems that we are going to say that we as Catholics are going to do a good deal more of a public morality in this country. We put forward for that case that there should be some religious aspect or at least teaching about religion in the public schools will continue to say that the three million kids in Catholic schools have some rights but I say to you my dear friends at eight New Day Has Come and the Holy Spirit is clearly asking us to do something and follow the leadership of the Catholic Bishops. People say well, what will the Bishops do? They come to your beautiful campus. Once again next summer, they'll think and pray and they'll live the Benedictine tradition for a few days. But they are frankly looking for people like yourself to carry on the revolution. They've done what they can and they're hoping somehow that the intellectual and spiritual aristocracy of the church in America will take up the Pastoral and (00:25:21) say we are going to insist that our foreign policy be consistent with what all of the religious virtually all of the (00:25:29) religious groups in America are saying and validating. Cardinal Bernardin as you know talks regularly about the seamless garment where he says the death penalty is contrary to Catholic teaching likewise abortion and likewise the threat or the use of nuclear weapons (00:25:47) think of what would happen to my dear friends if (00:25:50) the Catholics in this country really believed in what the Catholic tradition teaches about Warfare suppose that we came forward well-informed articulate totally civil to everyone our friends and our opponents and suppose we join with all types of non-catholics and that we would say that we are insisting on the place of morality and public life. If we continue to say that we don't want the government in America to make up our morality. We the citizens of America will form a consensus and the government should go with that moral consensus. Those are the great great church-state issues. Do we have some answers to those? We have to go back to a quorum (00:26:33) Reality, it seems to me (00:26:34) and as Catholics for a long time. We were passive in this country. We withdrew as I mentioned from the public schools. We have our own code of values. We don't want to say that's (00:26:44) fundamentally inconsistent with the Constitution. It's not but we look at (00:26:48) this country and we say that the day has come when we want if you will another abolition (00:26:55) movement. I think that there is a lot (00:26:58) happening in America at this time and that although we look at the fundamentalist today and they're in disarray and disfavor and maybe even in disgrace we can't rejoice in that but we say, well, what is God telling us by all of the religious movements that have happened in our day? I think that God is telling us that our nation has fallen in to a terrible system where we now have 30,000 nuclear weapons and we threatened Extinction to the other side. We manufacture three more nuclear weapons a day and that are Catholic Bishops that calling us and Sense for another abolition movement it seems to me that deserves priority. It is clearly the most moral cause in the entire world and we have unique assets to understand and to articulate what is happening in that era. What can we say about the situation in America concerning church and state? I think that American history validates the fact that we want an active clergy and we want a militant Church to bring about a moral objective. We can be proud generally speaking of what churches and synagogues have done in the history of our country. They eliminated slavery and they were the (00:28:14) prime movers in that (00:28:15) area. Clearly the churches were most effective when Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 64 in the voting records Rights Act of 65 the Congress the churches of America were very very influential and instrumental in a in (00:28:30) finally defunding the war in Vietnam. (00:28:33) By the Congress consequently, we should say that the churches have a (00:28:38) right and a duty to speak up in (00:28:40) America. We expect them to do it. Sometimes they go too far as in the Volstead Act, but the very essence of the Constitution says (00:28:48) that we the people as it opens up we the people are in charge in America here and if people are organized in churches in a profoundly religious Nation than we should say that the government has no right to say we are not going to follow when there is a consensus (00:29:04) in all of the churches the churches right now. It seems to me have a unique opportunity. There is a crisis and a Crossroads in American foreign policy at this moment. Mr. Gorbachev and my judgment is (00:29:17) offering things that we should (00:29:18) consider very carefully. We should clearly except the ban on all (00:29:22) nuclear testing that has (00:29:24) been the directive of every president since President Kennedy, except. Mr. Regan. I think that we should look at what history will record. And as we celebrate the (00:29:34) bicentennial of the Constitution, I keep thinking of a hundred years from now and what will they be saying of the (00:29:41) Catholics of Minnesota at that time? I had this great vision that (00:29:45) somehow Catholics and (00:29:47) all of our friends in America are going to rise (00:29:50) up and say that we can't live in this (00:29:52) country where we are threatening Extinction to millions and millions of people that we are going to follow our Catholic Bishops and follow our Catholic tradition and somehow with the alliance of (00:30:03) 800 million Catholics all around the world. We are going to say that we (00:30:07) refuse to go on and (00:30:09) live with this threat of nuclear (00:30:12) Annihilation, maybe a hundred years from now people will look back and say (00:30:16) well America pulled out of that (00:30:18) terrible terrible situation in which it found itself and who did it and they would say it was the religious people of America. What a victory that would be for the Catholic church, if people could look back and say yes the Catholics thought (00:30:33) And prayed and wrote an influence and they prevented America from Eva and annihilating a hundred and fifty million people who happen to be Soviet citizens (00:30:44) think of what (00:30:45) our reputation will be if we don't do this (00:30:48) and if the United States (00:30:50) goes ahead and stumbles (00:30:52) into Armageddon and it could happen (00:30:54) by malfunctioning of the radar by miscalculation we could do what our foreign policy says and yes, we could do it tonight and tomorrow morning would wake up and we would have killed a hundred and fifty million people in 237 cities in the Soviet Union. That is what we say. We will do massive retaliation if that ever happened and it could happen. We would go down in history as the most barbarous people that ever existed in the history of the (00:31:22) world. We can prevent that and frankly it is only the religious groups in America that can prevent that why we have the vision we have the background on the talent and the This and all of the education think of what would happen if all the Christians and the Jews in America made an alliance and that we went back and said the god of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob certainly forbids the fact that we are doing what we are doing now (00:31:48) threatening The Other Nation and the Catholic Bishops said it very well, you may not threaten to do that, which you may not morally do it's (00:31:57) very very clear (00:31:58) and that the logic of it is inexorable and that Our obligation at this moment is to say we have a very (00:32:05) unique opportunity and yes a moral duty. Does this come unto what America says in his church State situation. It certainly does because you look forward to the next few years and America no matter how you think of History America is still in the storm. We are only five percent of the population of the Earth and yet we somehow control or utilise 40% of the (00:32:33) Is and that we have this enormous impact on what is going to happen around the world. (00:32:38) I think frankly that the time of the Moral Majority has passed and that that may have been a force with the fundamentalist and they're in the right wing. (00:32:46) We should learn from them. I think that we should (00:32:49) recognize that Reverend Falwell repented if you will of his extremist attitudes and here is what Reverend Falwell said very recently to a group of a thousand conservative Jews in Miami River and fall was said this quote. I have been preaching the (00:33:07) christianisation of America. I realize now that I was mistaken (00:33:13) we are wrong and we are sorry. We are not a Christian Nation. We don't want a state church. This is a pluralistic society and school should be neutral (00:33:25) that has not been widely advertised. But I think that when Reverend Falwell says that we have been wrong then there is a Is among all of us even among those that have been saying that the Christians especially the mainline Protestants have been (00:33:39) wrong. What therefore we shall we say should be the consensus. I think it's very clear that the first amendment was a unique experiment. It has been very successful. It hasn't always helped the Catholic schools as much as we think it should but (00:33:55) it seems to me that we should emphasize the second part of the First Amendment and say that the free (00:34:00) exercise of religion is guaranteed to every single human being in America and we should say that therefore we are going to (00:34:09) expand that we are going to insist that we speak up and that we be heard that we become politicized. We don't want to dominate that we want to say that we are totally if displeased with the Intolerable situation where we (00:34:25) find our foreign policy is unacceptable to our basic moral beliefs therefore. What can we (00:34:33) say? About the way we become politicized the Catholic Bishops have been very careful in this area. I think it's very clear as the Bishops of said that churches should not endorse (00:34:45) candidates. I think that it's clear that churches that do that (00:34:50) should be denied tax exemption. There's at least one example of that the Christian Century of protestant weekly in 1964 openly endorsed. Mr. Johnson against mr. Goldwater and for that day quite rightfully, I think lost their tax exemption for two years, but it seems to me that we shouldn't have one issue voting that even if we feel very strongly on something as the Catholic Bishops said a year ago and five years ago. There were at least 14 moral issues that they mentioned and that we should in a detached manner look at the candidate and look at all of these issues and vote our conscience as we see it. I think that we ought to respect each other with enormous civility. We have had done civility in the past six years, especially from the religious, right and I hope the Catholics will say they were going forward and talk with all of these people and that in the year of the bicentennial we should A as Catholics that we're not dissatisfied with the Constitution. It hasn't done everything for our religious freedom that we think it should have and that we hope and think and pray that that might change but that we should say that we to Rejoice with the whole country in the bicentennial. This is a nation that has never had a religious war and religious wars were all over Europe and we look back and with shame we say Catholics helped to perpetuate this and we look at Northern Ireland and say how can God how can these people Catholics and Protestants still be fighting in the street 400 years after the reformation and although we don't want to be super triumphal list in America about our constitution. We should say that it had the virtue of stopping the churches from abusing the rights of the people in America. Like the church is abuse the rights of the people in England and on the continent. It is a marvelous combination this thing that we call the Constitution here is what Justice Douglas said in the zoo. (00:36:47) Back decision in 1953. (00:36:50) We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose the existence of a Supreme Being theorists have been trying to devise words over the last 40 years as to what should be the proper relationship. I think everybody wants say separation of church and state but what do we separate the air at the theorists say that we ought to have a benign neutrality other people would say that we ought to have an absolute separation that no Aid whatsoever. However, I think that generally speaking people would agree that the government must Foster an atmosphere that is friendly to religion. They should not necessarily help religion. They can't be for religion and against non-religion, but that The Establishment Clause should be instrumental. It shouldn't Collide or infringe upon the free exercise clause. I'm talking like a lawyer here a little bit, but let me just broaden this to say that the And law what we call common law has always relied upon religion. It doesn't seek from religion all of its Norms, but that from a 1200 to 1800 in England for six hundred years the government fostered religion. There was tax exemption for the churches and it was understood in England that the churches would have a special place and that the sentiments of the church would have some access to public law. Not the not unless however, there was a consensus but it seems to me that religion flourishes in many ways in America and even though many people feel that the (00:38:26) school should be more religious. We should say that we have had a unique opportunity in America because of the Constitution. It's an experiment. It's now two hundred years old. We worry about the secularizing aspect of (00:38:40) it. But what does it do particularly for Catholics? It allows us to speak out. I think if there is any lesson that Catholics need at this particular moment, it is that we shouldn't be apathetic. We shouldn't be silenced. (00:38:55) We should learn the great lesson of Elie Wiesel about the sin of Silence. Elie Wiesel says regularly that if we are silent we become accomplices of The Executioner's and Edmund Burke had that famous statement 200 years ago that evil grows because good people do nothing. I want the churches to speak out as never before and I want Catholics to speak out not (00:39:21) self-righteously very cautiously not with any arrogance not trying to dominate the (00:39:28) conversation, but just to (00:39:30) say that we have arrived and that we were probably too silent and to inarticulate in the last century and maybe up in the Years up until 1947. But now the law (00:39:41) has been clarified and rightfully along (00:39:43) with the public schools and the private (00:39:45) school are in the situation that I have described all I can say in conclusion (00:39:50) is that I was deeply honored to come (00:39:52) here. I look forward to your comments and questions. I envy you the opportunity of learning so much from the Benedictine tradition. And I hope that you all of you is an especially the young people here (00:40:05) will recognize that to be a Catholic in contemporary. America (00:40:09) is a supreme Challenge from God. He has chosen you (00:40:13) and not someone else to live in this age and not another age and that he has a mission for you, which is unique. What is the greats in the great Sinister turn away and say that I just want a home in Suburbia and to make a lot of money in to forget about all the religious controversies. You can't do that (00:40:30) and reconcile your (00:40:31) conscience and to say that I went to this beautiful institution and yet I'm not really distinct and unique in America the Catholics have an enormous and in a unique in an unprecedented opportunity and the Catholic Bishops have recognized that they have matured. Have more sophistication and more nuanced statements now than ever before in 200 years and they are asking for your assistance. They don't want to dominate your thought but they are crying out for some help from you and from the pews and from those to whom so much has been given (00:41:05) and in the past world of (00:41:06) nuclear warfare. They said that we beg the Catholic colleges to establish all types of courses and seminars on nuclear warfare and that we hope that they'll be a whole new Phalanx of people coming out who will be drilled in all of the nuances of what the nuclear war means in this particular era and I hope particularly in the next month or two, you know all about the intermediate nuclear forces that may or may not be withdrawn from Europe. I hope that you know all about the ABM Treaty and thought one and salt to and I hope that you recognize that in the last six and a half years. Nothing nothing. Nothing has been done in arms control and that salt 1 and salt to in all the aspiration to the Catholic bishop have been set aside. And that we have gone from disaster to disaster. And now in God's Providence. We had the voice of Gorbachev who wants some how some rational approach to all of these things and I hope that you especially the students but all of us will say I am going to be a well-informed American and Christian and in this year of the bicentennial when all of this exaggerated reticle can be coming at us. I am going to do (00:42:11) something very very constructive. We're not going to say that the church is on (00:42:15) our position. We're not going to be like Falwell and say that all of those that disagree with us are bad Christians. Let me (00:42:21) just close with a very profound thing that Abraham Lincoln said about (00:42:25) the profundity of God about how difficult it is to know his will and how we should be very very reluctant to slow to say that (00:42:32) God is on our side and to say that (00:42:34) those who disagree with us are going against the will of God here (00:42:37) is what Abraham Lincoln said on a beautiful statement with which I close. Everybody at that time was tempted to demonize the South and to sanctify the cause of the union and Abraham Lincoln the president reacted to those sentiments in this way in the present Civil War. It is quite possible that God's purpose is something different from the purpose of either party. Thank you very much. (00:43:12) All right. Let me (00:43:15) did you hear the question? Let me recapitulate. He said that the churches as I suggested might have been wrong on a Prohibition of booze because there was no consensus and then he brings up the pro-life question. Well, let me talk to both of them. I think there is a consensus among the historians that the method is particularly moved too fast and too far and they divided the country on a religious issue along political lines and we had wet States and dry States and people were defeated because they were Pro booze and so on and I think it was a very bad scene for the religious. (00:43:44) You're quite right that there is no consensus on what we should do about abortion coming out of my tradition like all the Catholics. I just condemn abortion. I (00:43:53) think I agree totally with Vatican to that said that abortion is virtually the same thing as infanticide question. What should we do about abortion in (00:44:01) America? It's not a local problem here. It's all around the world and I say it with with shame and sadness that this 55 million abortions in the world every year unbelievable in Third world and in Catholic countries like Poland you have women millions of them with unwanted pregnancies and they terminate the pregnancy. What should we do in America clearly massive education and I think frankly that we have failed in that era. We have not gone forward and say that you have to do something so that this condition will not arise question. Is it possible to recrimination eyes abortion? I don't think so. I don't think the votes are there and that the some Catholics not all by any means one. Sorry criminalize abortion that is to buy a constitutional amendment but in Massachusetts recently, there was a referendum on the ballot whether they should tighten up a bit on Medicaid abortions. This is a very heavily Catholic State over 60% and the voters turn that down 60/40 or 70/30. They turn that down so that the Catholics turn up the same way pretty much as non-catholics on what the law should do about abortion. There isn't any consensus there in you're not going to get a re criminalization and mr. Reagan. I don't know whether he's really worked out at hard enough. I don't know whether he has not satisfied all of the religious right but I think the Catholics ought to continue to do what we're doing we should do in my judgment with more civility and that we should say that we want to educate but I lament and the Bishops lament what some pro-life Catholics do namely that we're going to defeat a man who is very good on all of the issues except that they might not be satisfied with his position on abortion. And as I read it that is contrary to what the Catholic Bishops had regularly said that we should vote on all of these 14 issues. So thank you for your (00:45:51) coming. All right, I think the issue is this that what about the (00:45:56) policy of helping the contras? (00:45:58) I agree totally with the Catholic vision of America that it's a bad policy. I wouldn't give a dime to the contras. I debated a (00:46:04) doleful calero the other day on CNN. (00:46:11) Mr. Kelly. How is our was one of the three people heading up all of the countries and he owned the (00:46:17) Coca-Cola business in Managua (00:46:19) and they nationalized that and he wants his business back (00:46:21) understandable, but that in a half hour. He didn't turn up with the single (00:46:26) fact that he could ever conquer the sandinistas. I have quarrels with the San Andreas as we all do but nonetheless, I think (00:46:34) it's a legitimate government. They had a pretty good election in 84 and that I think that we ought to cooperate (00:46:40) with them some form of the Contra door problem. I frankly do not think that the Congress is going to give any more money to the sent to the contras. They've disgraced themselves with all of the shenanigans with the colonel North. So I think that era is over despite what the president said yesterday in New York and that all I can say is (00:46:57) that once again Catholics have enormous political clout in this country and if they made it very clear (00:47:04) that we agree with the Catholic Bishops that this is undesirable that a lot of good things would happen. Hi Trisha picky of Washington has (00:47:12) Actually, (00:47:13) he's the spokesman if you will of the Catholic Bishops on this point, he (00:47:16) testifies regularly. (00:47:17) He knows Central America when he was the bishop in Cleveland. He sent women down there and nuns and then he speaks Spanish and that he is opposed to it and I am and I hope that once again to repeat because I think it's worth (00:47:28) repeating that if Catholics and others join forces, we could stop Aid to the contras almost immediately on the table repeat (00:47:37) does John Judge John Paul II have an attitude that is different from the Catholic Bishops in America. And I'd say no, let me take on the nuclear weapons that he said at the United Nation one time through Cardinal casserole e that that deterrence is permissible at this particular Point by the possession of nuclear weapons, but that it is strictly condition and it is allowable. Now as the lesser of two weevils on the assumption that this is going to be phased up the Catholic Bishops have followed (00:48:07) that almost verbatim and in other areas, there (00:48:10) is no Really between what the Catholic Bishops he say here and the Pope. I mean, there's just no difference at all and that I've never heard (00:48:18) such a question or even such a suggestion and that I think that the (00:48:22) Catholic vision of America probably more Orthodox than any other hierarchy of the world that we are specialized in obedience and you suggest the Jesuits that I think that the Jesuits specialize in obedience by their constitution. So there's no contradiction there at all. Yes way back. Well, thank you very much for that question. That gives me an opportunity to elaborate just a bit. You can do an enormous amount you need information obviously and one of the groups that I commend to you is Network a group of some 6,000 tonnes in America. Who if you pay fifteen twenty dollars a year you get excellent information every month and especially on how your own people in Congress are voting I commend to you also common cause I just finished six years as a member of the national governing board of common (00:49:07) cause again you get excellent information and there's a Minnesota (00:49:11) chapter of common cause which I'm sure is very strong you get information about the B1 and the MX and nuclear Test Ban (00:49:18) Treaty you need information. You need to know these very complicated things furthermore. I suggest that you read a book or two 200 books have appeared in the last couple of years and that any one of those books will give you directions as to how you get into this. I can area. I think the specialist in the Pentagon who want No nukes. They're very very delighted that Catholics out there of people in America say well that's too complicated. I know sophisticated lawyers and others who say well, I don't understand anything about the intermediate (00:49:50) nukes in Europe. What is this about? So I (00:49:52) think man first of all, you got to learn then you have to influence other people in your Parish are in the in the community that you are and third you have to pray that all of these things go together. You'll understand better. If you pray and meditate on these things, you'll understand better. If you talk about them, we in study groups or form a study group and that basic information. It's a very complicated model puzzle and that all I can say is that I am delighted with your (00:50:21) question and that if you start (00:50:23) you'd be amazed at what one individual can do I've seen that happen. You can also do everything in the official church that other Daya some (00:50:32) dices are doing I'm (00:50:33) sure that you're good in this diocese, but let me tell you about a beautiful. Since I had a year or so ago in Des Moines, the bishop asked me to come out and on Thursday night, I was there and I stayed until Monday morning and we went to 14 different places with the bishop in the Des Moines. Diocese Which is far (00:50:52) spread out and Rural and Agricultural (00:50:54) and we'd come to these little parishes of community centers and the be 50 people there The Bishop's Peak and I would speak literature will be given out and it was a beautiful example of precisely what the Pastoral says that the Bishops have to go and educate how the laity and now the ball is in the court of the laity and that it could be it could be a revolution in America if people like you follow some of these ideas get your own ideas and that if the members of Congress knew that my population is like one-third Catholic and I wouldn't think I wouldn't even think of defying their wishes and voting for all of these horrible things that they want take Star Wars. The Bishops are opposed to As I think it's an idiotic idea the Strategic Defense Initiative and yet the Congress is giving them three to five billion dollars. They ought to have thousands of letters coming in and they would stop voting for SDI. Let me just make that graphic that during the Vietnam war. We didn't have the votes for months and years and that group of clergymen Baptist from Georgia saw me in the car one time and they recognized me and they talked to me and they said how can we convince our own Congressman to come out against the war in Vietnam? I said you get 10,000 Baptist to write him in the next month or two and I am inclined to think he may change his position three months thereafter. This nice gentleman was up in the well, it said on the change my vote on the Vietnam War and he said I've heard from all my Baptist at home and I think it's a good wall but it's just too long. So we got to vote. So you have you have power and that Catholics have power especially when they say this is not my little cranky idea, but I To my neighbors last night and maybe at some Parish event or some other event. We had 42 signatures last night. He are they with their addresses and we'll be watching how you vote and that bill Brett Senator Bill Bradley for example voted an aid to the before age of the countries and I sent him a letter and I got a mushy letter back nice and all that but and I wrote them again. I said, that's that's a dumb letter for you to send out so I haven't heard the second time yet, but that I think I think to be a good Christian means that you're a good citizen and if you're not a good citizen, then you're not a good Christian. That's a pretty good statement. Yes. (00:53:18) All right, how effective our marches and like Father Daniel Berrigan. Well, Daniel Berrigan is a dear friend of mine. He was in the Seminary with me and he's got a lot more courage and Grace than I have. I know that and I had a long talk with him recently just precisely about this. He does his thing. I've never been involved in those things, but I'm not faulting them and that I read about them and (00:53:39) whenever it happens, it forces people to think (00:53:42) that maybe this is wrong. They dramatize it as I say I try to work within the system but that I really admire those people then they go and get lawyers of course and litigate the whole thing and that up in Massachusetts. As you know, Amy Carla (00:53:58) engage in Civil Disobedience recently and a judge and a jury exonerated her in Massachusetts saying stay believed (00:54:05) her defense. She says that I am doing some wrong in order to dramatize the greater wrong (00:54:11) and that is a legitimate defense in the law in Massachusetts, and she had some clever lawyers well and That's that's something that you should be. It's done by people who say that I'm tired of writing articles and all and that I'm not faulting them and I think during the Vietnam War. I think that the marches on the demonstrations were very (00:54:29) important. Man, that's that's that's an excellent idea her career statement. Is this that that in the Senate right now there is coming to the full senate floor in the very near future and appropriation something from the Appropriations Committee where there was an attempt to do two things to stop all funding in this bill for nuclear testing under the ground in Nevada and secondly to say that none of the funds in this bill may be used in violation of salt to they need the votes very badly on the floor and that it lost by two votes in the Appropriations Committee. It did pass the house by a healthy. Margin if that were in the bill, mr. Reagan might well veto it and then they'll be a further test. Could they override The veto? I think that's a very constructive thing that was done. It was done by the house last (00:55:17) year and then they dropped it in conference when the president said, (00:55:21) I'm going to Reykjavik, please don't tie my hands, but that he achieved nothing had Reykjavik. He walked away from everything that was offered and that I think that that's a very specific concrete. And I commend you for knowing about it (00:55:33) and I hope that everybody here will act and that hopefully the Senators would (00:55:38) would recognize that here is (00:55:40) public opinion and that this is not a (00:55:43) game for the short-winded that (00:55:45) you have to keep after it. And if the Senate votes the wrong way right to him and say I'm very disappointed and maybe get another 40 names and that people in the Congress are not they don't just sit down and say well the people run but they know the first words of the Constitution we the people and that they recognize that people are very apprehensive over this and they must recognize also that it is outrageous to violates all to absolutely outrageous and insensible and irrational and I wrote about this for America magazine and that it's unbelievable that you have very severe restraints on the Soviet Union and they have set aside at least twelve hundred missiles in compliance with salt to and that if we go ahead and say well we're not going to comply with soil to then. They also are going to say well we (00:56:31) Can't come play with it that it is unnecessary (00:56:35) and illegal not illegal, but it is unnecessary and unwise for (00:56:40) this Administration to say that we have to violate salt to this is the the culmination or the the building on salt 1 and the we should go (00:56:48) back and takes all to and some version and go to solve for and Salt N and so we straight them as restrain them on both sides. So thank you for the question.