I need to talk about reading with our guest children's book author and illustrator tomie. DePaola and Al Greenfield who's a reading specialist with the Minnesota Department of Education. Tell me the problem has been writing and illustrating children's books since about 1965, right Tommy and he's received many awards were his books among them the Regina metal from the Catholic libraries Association for his outstanding lifetime contribution to children's literature. He's also received the Caldecott honor for his book Strega, Nona his latest work as a new collection of Mother Goose rhymes, which is publisher cause virtually a guaranteed best seller and Apollo's ultimate achievement. Al Green Field is considered an expert in the area of literacy. He's developed and helped establish programs to improve reading skills for both children and adults and works a great deal with the Minnesota Literacy Council. There was a literacy conference in the Twin Cities over the weekend sponsored by the international reading Association, and they were bothTaking part is I understand in that conference one of the goals of that organization that I guess I read it was to promote the life-long reading habit, and maybe I'll you can answer this one. Is it possible to do to develop that kind of a habit if it isn't begun in childhood? It's much harder to develop if it's not begun in childhood, but I believe that people can start to make a way into developing that happen. If they really want to when they get older but it's much easier if it's done want to see how is tomie. DePaola is responsible for getting a lot of people off on that reading habits of his children is the mother of a young son myself. We've been through many tomie dePaola books and I've noticed that some of them that are nice I think for very young children. Some of them don't have any words at all. They're only pictures and maybe both of you can talk about that. Is that a form of reading in itself? Just looking at pictures in a sequence to tell a story for my point of view. The reason why I love doing wordless picture books is because first of all, I did start out as an artist in it and the wordless book is is really telling the story through the pictures, but it's interesting for my wordless books. I end up writing a very elaborate script Like a film script and but the what I think is it a real value in the wordless book for the very young is that it's like looking at a painting a child can even bring their own ideas their own stories. And I know I got letters from teachers all over the country that if they use those wordless books to help develop writing skills and using them is a take-off point and I think that's why those of us who like to do wordless books and they're very hard. I wish I wish I could do more but you know, it's really hard to do a good wordless book believe it or not. But they do use these books for developing writing skills and even verbal skills, which I'd let hope we can talk about that a little bit later cuz that's another problem that we're facing in this country the lack of verbal skills that young people have a but I'd be fascinated to find out what I was going to ask you about that because I very much agree with you that they develop the writing skills button. She said that the verbal skills very young to get the children to talk because listening are reading belongs in the language arts block of listening speaking Reading Writing and a child in order to to use the phonics that he has to learn to order to learn how to read has two already know that word in his listening and speaking vocabulary and the and the wordless books allow that child to look at the picture to gain the concepts that are in that picture in to talk about them and that helps build that verbal vocabulary that that he or she needs before they learn how to read so I absolutely agree that right. I've also talked some on reading the pictures. I've Mega Saver in a couple of articles on that how I really do feel that maybe we don't Give enough attention to that in school sometimes cuz I've noticed that very young children are very good at reading the pictures and then by around third grade they miss things that are in the picture. That's interesting. Cuz I I did I used my book country in the animals, which is a wordless book with a school in Las Vegas, Nevada of all places and that the first graders. Oh, they noticed everything and they they really got the story what was happening and it's very complicated where this book because the hunt falls asleep in the animals change the branches on the trees from oak leaves to pine tree branches and when the hunter wakes up he thinks he's in a different place. Now the first grade children got a kindergarten everyone. It was a Rorschach test. Nove they told stories that were way out and wonderful. Couldn't figure out why the hunter was frightened when he woke up because they missed they didn't say that and I was curious about that why that happens in our schooling. Do we are we taught not to look at pictures or are they just are we not just is that not paid attention to I would say it's it's not paid attention to it because it in third grade you would be very much wanting them to rely on their on their verbal skills reading skills and looking at the written word and I believe your point is well made in terms of not paying attention to pictures to me a picture is worth a thousand words, he will and we don't use those the way the way we are. And I would say that would be the emphasis that we have given to the written word rather than to the painted on offer or the fantagraphics that are there. So it's telling me that I might I'm right on track here at a reminder listeners that we invite their questions today. We're talking about literacy with tomie. DePaola and Al Green Field with four children. And adults in and how we learn to read and how we can learn to read better possibly. The number in the Twin Cities is 227-6000. And if you're living outside the Metropolitan calling area, but within the state of Minnesota, you can call us toll-free at one 806-5297 hundred and I'll give you even another number if you're not within the state of Minnesota, but want to call us you can use our area code which is 612 and then call 227-6000. what is one of the things that I guess we're continually asking and wondering about is are we in this country or maybe even another country is losing the reading habit because of the Reliance and work television or Mostly television, I guess video not as much reading being done. I believe more books are being sold today than they were ever before then in the various book stores. And the use of of reading is a tool is still extremely important. No matter whether television there is a technological ages is around it is very important that we teach children to learn how to read and think and I think that's comes to the point of interpreting the pictures and in using what they are seeing eye and and and thinking skills in analyzing kinds of skills to and its really very important then that that is started very very young, you know, in terms of being taught that particular happen. We have a block full of people waiting with questions for Tommy depalo and Al Green feels so we'll go to the phones right away. And you have the honor of the first question. Go ahead. Please write me because my father was a school dropout when I got to college. I have found that couldn't understand what he wrote unless I read it out loud because he spelled phonetically I've tried to encourage a lot of basically illiterate adults to go back and learn how to read right and one of my strongest project was the person who else dropped out of school to support his brothers and sisters and She always found somebody who would fill in for him. And I don't know that that's doing a service to these people but I can't figure out how to get them motivated to discover the Saint Louis Park High School had a program for teaching adults to read and when we repair the motorcycle one-time anything that I read him out of the owners manual he could do it if there was someone there any always found someone to fill in for your question is are you doing them? All right. No, you're not doing them a favor. I I believe that that is something that they they need to learn to do on their own. But you also have to be cautious with those with those people in the way that you handle them because you might say go. Let's go back to school or let's have a program to learn how to read and so the place that they are they go back to is the school or the adult basic continuing ed program, which is in a school building and they get to the door and the door is locked or they were there early because they wanted to check it out which is a very common thing and they find out that no one else is around and and they turn around and they go back because they they are just frightened of their new situation. And so you have to be cautious as to to say well I can't help it. I think there has to be that Bond of a one-to-one kind of relationship of the person who's teaching or tutoring to the one who's learning and Auntie help that person. Over that attitudinal emotional barrier as well as that barrier of not of not being able to learn the written words and it can be done. But the the feelings and emotions sometimes outweigh the the task that that's to be done writes books for children and the illustrations already unit with a fantasy kind of world. Do those books work and teaching adults how to read some examples of old woman that I knew Mass if we was teaching English to foreign speaking of people and she used my books to teach them to teach them English because she's the first of all they were beautiful she said and they responded to them as a piece of lovely art, but then she got them going out and reading reading stories to children in the library. And in the schools and it was a wonderful way. She said of teaching foreign language to her students. I don't know what that that would work with people who had a literacy problem, but I don't see why it wouldn't as long as they weren't embarrassed. You know? Yes, they would work, I think they would work very well. But the person who does that the teaching in in this world of of adult illiteracy, we have a huge number and we try to get volunteers to help teach and the volunteers are sometimes just as afraid of the process as what a person who is going to do to learn is and they want to have a step-by-step procedure because they don't know the process or the steps of reading and in that Workshop you teach them that and then they want to have that Linus blanket. If you will do to be able to follow very closely in after a while. Once they understand that process then I believe that in the world is open for them. I use those other kinds of books and encouragement because that's that's the joy of reading is a share. Those great books go to another call or end on the phone with questions. Go ahead. Please children can find out till after she hit in the wild, Montana. Like I'm going to recommend children's books cuz there's a movement in this country as well a lot of teachers and school systems are using what are known as trade books meaning it real books vs. Textbooks offer teaching not only reading but other other disciplines social studies a math history. And so and I think that boy even in the Wilds of Montana or if you live here in the Twin Cities, you've got some wonderful children's book shops. That would have you could you could send her that most incredible library and I should think that that would be a wonderful way to to do teaching at home. I I can't imagine being teaching at home being any worse than bacon is school room may be better. But I do know that that's a growing movement of using the the trade book in the classroom for teaching of reading rather than what we call a basal or what was called the basal text and I'm betting she's got some I don't have any particular places that you can go to get excellent textbooks, but I would agree with you that use of children's of children's literature and good historical books are good. I could trade books are good things still to also use and to look around right within the area that you are in terms of teaching history or teaching science. There are so many things again. It's it's what the teacher knows and can do books or tools and it's the person who who does the teaching has to learn how to use the tools that are around him or her to be able to teach those that are that are wanting to learn And I think that also is the is the key point. It's the teacher or the person who's doing the teaching to know what resources are available. But to say what materials are there, I I would I would go back to the what textbooks are good in the classroom can also be used at home as well as the world of experience. That's that's there in the community look around and go to another collar with the question. We are talking about literacy and reading with tomie. DePaola and out El Greenfield. Go ahead. Please turn on book so far and I was wondering if either one of your expertise would care to talk about the use of computers in teaching reading on teaching reasoning or analytical thought as well as teaching imagination the use of for instance Graphics in the end or paint type things on computers for for young children, I do have Another question and that is that there's been quite a bit of discussion two books have been written one of which is why well why Johnny can't read why Johnny still can't read talkin about the teaching of reading and the word recognition kind of recognizing words in the context of the sea Dixie Jane sort of thing rather than Teaching Alphabet recognizing alphabetic sounds sounding Out words and learning how to look them up in the dictionary and use them in that way. And I wonder if you would care to comment on that. Hey couple of big question. I wonder how he feels about the computers being a book author and illustrator have a feeling you might not like me. I know and we are we have a computer at home in my assistant who doesn't do any of the writing or illustrating of the books, but does all the business end of it uses the computer for mailing list etcetera. And I I I think it's a great tool but we have an apple 2E. I think it's it is an on the little original the initial disc that teaches you how to use this thing. I was packing out my name and it said spell your name and I was taking a hard time long time flashing the key for it in the computer said don't be afraid. I personally I see nothing wrong with anything a new technical thing and that if it can be used properly I happen to not be against television. I think it's a wonderful media. I was brought up on books and movies and radio when I was growing up but I don't think affects Susan stamberg ask me about a year ago because you've been talking to Milton Glaser of the graphic designer who stated that within a little while all the art. We're going to see it's going to look like computer art and she asked me what I thought about that and I said, well, the one thing of computer still can't do is do a beautiful curved line and if cannot shade there's lots of things that computer can do but I don't think the computers are going to take the place of a of a genuine artist, but I think for children to use computers as wonderful, they are not afraid of them, of course and I sat there pet me a paralyzed at this keyboard. I now have the program and I haven't had time how to type. So I may look like my friendly pet computer who told me I was a nice person and it did its he said you you're very nice person. It's really a friendly computer friend, but I'm sure that computers are great using in education and in the classroom, I would agree that computers are too well. As TV also is the two of them has an on-off switches. You said wasn't one of the report's the reading report card is talked about TV being watched 6 hours a day is a detriment to children and learning how to read but from 2 hours or less a day to like 10 hours a week. It's a it's an an asset. It helps children learn more words and computers. I believe also will allow people to do the writing skills the word processing program. They don't have to get a pair of their paper and erase it make a hole in their paper. They can learn how to move the words around and adjusting and that's going to be a great Aid in learning how to write in connecting listening speaking reading and writing in that way in terms of the reading skills. I find that in order to learn phonics you still need The oral part you need to hear the sound and you need to hear the start and end of when the computers get the the word chips in them that store sound and can give the The Sounds back to make those sounds as we are getting up that's going to be a great tool. But the software has yet to be really discovered to help in that particular area right now. The the greatness of the computers are the word processing programs in the writing a program that the second part that the the caller asked about is why Johnny can't read and why Johnny still can't read those two books have have been around for a long time the 125 years and you want to get intensive phonics programs into every school in in the United States and there's basically two ways that the that a person can teach phonics in one is as is he described to do it from the part to the whole to learn the letter sounds and blend those sounds together to make the words in the other way as the analytic kind of a phonics or in Music phonics to learn words first and then to analyze the words in the sounds and then to learn the rules from that either one of those ways Works, although there's an organization that would really want to push for intrinsic intensive phonics. And every one of the schools are systematic phonics and every one of the schools in the end in the United States. We have found programs both programs work. Well if done systematically and in the good way. The other component that has to go along with the phonics is what is what we're talking about and why Tommy is here too and that is the listening and speaking in the reading of good children's books in the sharing of that for that oral language because phonics won't do anyone any good unless that words already in there listening and speaking vocabulary and that attitude that emotion that feeling of oral language and end in the necessity of doing the talking that can only come from those beautiful children's books that that we have around us. First grade while I went off to kindergarten and I asked the teacher when do we learn how to read and she said next year and I walked right at all. Right. I'll be back next to my mother read aloud to us, which I think is a real clue to lots of things and but when I did get to kindergarten and first grade, I hated Dick and Jane with the passion because nobody talk like that. And so what I did was I took the book home, which I was not supposed to do and I memorized if I asking my parents, what's this word? What's this word? Because and my nephew was the same way. I couldn't get phonics when I was growing up. But I I would look at a word to say what is that word and not refrigerator? Oh, I know what the refrigerator is. That's how you spell it good. But that's the way I learned how to read Because I guess I had a good visual memory and phonics was a complete loss for me and I have a nephew who is the same. The same problem and I'd like to hear what you think about that. I think you would realize you don't realize how much phonics you really know the sounds of the letters. I would agree with you that you had a great visual memory and what and what you had were pictures of the words in your mind already because of the sharing of the books. And so I think in a way you develop your own system of phonics and you had your own method to use and when the teacher was trying to give you another one you sit. Well that just didn't work for you and then and it wasn't working not all children develop the phonics in that way. Some of them don't realize that so they need the skills approach put them but they still need the the language Bass the oral language. Would you had a good idea because your mother right or someone read to you? I do agree if if we would have people read to their children 10 minutes a day 15 minutes a day. What a tremendous. wealth of information they would get that's one of the things that it did I'm curious about two of we were talking about people adults who cannot read then because they cannot read to their children. Does that mean that the children are more likely to be have problems with reading then? Yes very much. So in this visit in fact is one of the Reasons why a non reading adult will want to come back to learn how to read in one of the reasons. I want to read the Bible one to I want to read books to my children and end. I really want to be able to do that. And yes, it affects their children too because if they're not read to at home than they don't pass that on to that's why the earlier call when you said Can someone learn how to get into the habit of that when they get older? Yes because as an adult, they realize the need that they have to redo their own children and they didn't learn that themselves and they want to do that. And so it's great to start the share those children's books and with their own children and they gain something that they messed an answer really great write a fifth grade teacher who read to us as in 5th grade read every single day of the school year sheet the last day of the end of the afternoon. She would take again 10-15 minutes and read. How to us and I've never forgotten that as well as the reading aloud at home. So not sure you have it on you must have it on Minnesota Public Radio, maybe not but New England public radio, we have a program called reading aloud Bill Cadmus and he reads books and literally reads books at noontime and things like the red and the Black by stendhal and I still a minute someone starts to read to me. I'm hooked, you know, it's just fantastic even at the age of 50 when I still have to be read aloud to I wouldn't agree. I have been cheering children's literature books with the tutor Shooters think they non-reading adults trying to emphasize to them. Also how important it is not only to learn the skills, but they're established the Habit the emotions attitudes of learning to read it one of the literacy. Conferences in the southwest to join Freedom of reading. I shared an hour and a half of children's books with them and they were just enthralled and in and just sat and listened to them and someone commented afterwards. I haven't been read to for 25 years and was it great and it's and I don't believe you stop at age 10. I believe you go all the way up to age 51 and Beyond being read to it's it's kind of nice being a parent having a child with learning how to read because you can have the child read to you then. I think that's a fabulous things to do to get the child to read a book to you either good 26 minutes past 12 noon and Al Greenfield is a reading specialist with the Minnesota Department of Education. Tomie. DePaola is an author and illustrator of children's books were taking your questions will go on to the next caller. Go ahead. I'd like to put in a plug for the Minnesota Literacy Council through which my husband and I have been tutoring. Students for about a year-and-a-half. It's probably most rewarding thing either one of us one to one situation. Also. I wanted to say that potential tutors shouldn't be worried as it as you were talking about before about being able to tutor because the materials are so highly structured that anybody can follow them and if it's not a problem then the second thing is a question which you really been talking about just now and that was how to establish the reading Habit in older people. I was thinking not just of people who are really poor readers or non-readers as adults who have gone through tutoring program, but people who presumably have been literate for sometime I was startled to learn about a church book Discussion Group the other day where a number of the members who are Early and mid series confessed that they really didn't enjoy reading and they had spent an awful lot of time watching television when they were kids some of them listen to tapes of books, but they find it very hard work to read and it's making that leap from enjoying talking about the books and ideas to actually being able to make that effort to do it yourself so that you're not limited to whatever you can find on tape or whatever is on the radio. If you're lucky enough to have a reading your novel program. I'd be glad to hear whatever you have to say about so it sounds like how it how do you not only learn how to read but to enjoy reading and do you have to be a very good reader in order to enjoy reading? No, I believe that for myself and reading books. Now. I enjoyed reading children's literature books because I can sit down for an hour or two and I can I can complete the book and and it's great. Some of the older of the adult books. It might take you a week or so to get through but a child children's literature book stories are great in there. And of course with with my job, it's great to but how do you establish reading habits for older adults? I believe too that they maybe I'll just take out a child's book of children's literature book and and try reading some of those they would find fascinating things in those books in applications to to their own everyday life. There's also great books Foundation of Chicago, Illinois has what's called Junior great books program for children, but they had adult great books programs where adults can get together in groups and read the same book and have discussions on it on chapters of that book 2 or 3 chapters. The course of the weekend and that too is a great way to establish adult reading habits, but I had an art school. We had our rough. We had a great books class Noah for our English class. I think it was an interesting question though because I guess I'm a good reader. I love to read and unlike out I don't read children's books cuz I just make them but I think we the people find reading hard because I don't you know, I sit down and I can devour a book in fact. I haven't done this for the last couple of years cuz I've been so busy, but for a number of years every year it's kind of a ritual. I would take three days at off and read Kristin lavransdatter by Sigrid undset, which is a Trilogy in quite a hefty Trilogy and I would read each one of the three books in a day. When do anything else but just sit on the sofa read the first book if I eat of course, but not do anything else. But and that to me is hey if somebody said what would you really like to do is just give me a good book and let me read it from cover to cover. But so it's fascinating to me. How do you you know, how do you help older people? I know that the reading have it was established in me a long time ago and I can't I can't go to bed unless something to read before it's like it's like Get my fix I've got to hit my literature fix for the day, but it is fasting. How how do you help older people to develop that have it? I know how you help younger people but it's that older. The older people is really a concern but there might be one of the frustrating things for people who do not read rapidly that they aren't able to complete a book in a day or the night. And then Al is that where the reading the shorter books would be helped now, that's what you're good. I would I would agree aunt and I believe in adults to it. Sometimes a matter of priority now, he says he has a priority of of doing it every day. And in order to establish a priority Hammett, sometimes we need encouragement by other people and so getting a group where you would discuss the book or have to read a chapter. That means that I have to make the timer take the time as putting us in a group that would do that. That's why I think the great books adult great books Foundation or some other group or you just say we are going to discuss a chapter and then you set that as a priority to do that. But then also the workaday were What causes adults to say I only have so many minutes in it? And is it all right that I read something for enjoyment rather than for information on work and I believe there's where children's literature books. Can you fit in again? You can pick up Where the Red Fern Grows AR or other books which are really great and you can read them in a short amount of time. Okay, we'll go to another call or what the question for Al Greenfield and tomie dePaola. Go ahead play. I have two boys who are attending at will recognize junior high school. And I find that they are indeed reading trade books even outside of their English classes and I was surprised to learn that apparently the common practice is to read these books orally in class chapter by chapter. As a former reading tutor I can see that this would be essential for some students in order to get any benefit from the book. But I'm wondering what this will do to also the additional Importance of Being able to read the book on your own and to be held accountable for the what was in it and to the practice of adult reading I'll hang up and listen. Now that might be yours. I believe that's a that's a matter of of worried. You use books to teach students how to read them so that they in turn can read books on their own in there has to be that balance there has to be the balance of of taking those books in establishing the skills and the habits of what do I do when I read a trade book I look at the table of contents the end of Caesar if I'm reading for information and the study habits that need to be taught. I believe that's the intent that you do that if you're reading it to share the information in the chapters so that the students can get it then I think there is there needs to be a better balance. You have to you have to teach the skills and then the independence of being able to use those skills on your own and that that I'd be the emphasis in the trade book and the strategies as to how to read those in what to look. I do agree that in high schools and even colleges we have to we have to teach the skills of how to read philosophy books how to read history books how to read science books and and and we need to teach that but you have to then say I will show you I will model and then let them have some practice time to 227-6000 is the number in the Twin Cities that is if you can get in we have a number of people waiting on the line with questions if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities area, but within the state you can call toll free at one 806-5297 hundred go ahead please with your question. Yes, I have a 2 year old daughter who love story but I've been appalled by the few number of female main characters in book the stories with animal characters. Almost always male. How do you account for what's being done about I think maybe this was maybe a little more true back 10 years ago than it is right now cuz I do know that in the world of the trade Publishers that a real effort has been made to a to really make sure that there are really interesting female characters. But when I was growing up, I was very angry that Alison Wonderland was it you know, why couldn't be yo, Allen Wonderland, you know, a lot of the fairy tales are very strong women characters. Yes, of course there is Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty that maybe get acted upon rather than that. You don't have any kind of action of their own, but I think if you look I think if you look, You'll see books with very strong female characters even in the animals out there. You just have to look a little harder or go to a good children's only bookstore or are you going to go talk with your children's librarian you these are professionals who really know what's out there in quite often parents just because of the things of daily life aren't aware of the number of books cash. I forgot how many new titles are published every year but it's astounding Hills like what 10-15 thousand titles or something like that. It's mind-boggling but get your librarian to help you find books with strong female characters cuz something is being done about it and they are available. So you just out there looking you mentioned that there is a push on shall we say 2 to get the stronger female characters? What about y'all are there Trends in children's literature that that come and go Censorship for problem and things that you can't write about or shouldn't write about if you want a book to to do well, I think sometimes I'm very fortunate that the Publishers I I work for. I think it's it's the o i I hate to use the word. I even hate to even use the word censorship but it's the selection that I I'm self-selecting for instance. I because I do picture books. I think certain things are inappropriate for me to but there has been a great deal of trouble lately about censorship. You know, there's a lot of special interest groups. I do know of a an editor that turn down a book because it was a Halloween book and there was a witch in it and there seems to be some groups in the country that don't want books with witches, even if they're funny and Halloween witches because it's it's akin to the occult. I personally don't see the need for sexual situations in picture books because I don't think Young a three and four year olds. That's it. Go to be of any interest to them. I think there are Trends. I'm also lucky because I think in the picture book world and the Publishers that I work for a we don't really look at Trends so much. You know, it's it's if I if I'm going to have my Consciousness raised as a man and to become a feminist which happened to me along the years then that's going to naturally I'm going to write a book like Helga's diary because that's happened to me myself. And I think that's where my books come from. But I do think there are Trend books and I think some of them are very worthwhile. There's a whole new group of books out. In fact, I haven't read the article yet. But then this Sunday's New York Times book review section was the annual children's reviews of sub the selected number of books not very many this time, but there is an article on these books on that are Oh, yeah how to books and their present ones that are is a how to avoid the well. How to keep from being kidnapped in a way a ducted there's a lot of books out on that now I'm not to speak to a stranger how to be safe. Now. I'm not interested in doing that kind of work myself. I'm but I'm sure that some of those books are very valuable. And so I think that's rude Trendz happen. I think they're more Trends in the young adult area of children's books the children's literature than there are in the picture book area and maybe in the mass-market books. I know if you'll see Yo one board book with the fur babies then suddenly this 9000 board books 1 pop-up book tell me there's 9000 pop-ups. That's more merchandising then then Trends I guess but I do think that Trends are more present in the young adult literature every Young Adult Book you picked up his about drugs or alcoholism or so. But I think it's your what's what's if concern at the at the time. You know that you just came out with now Mother Goose is hardly a trendy book. It's very trendy books been around for a long time. Did you select any of the nursery rhymes that were in that select out because some of the Mother Goose rhymes. I know I have some sexist connotations to them. What I did was I spent four and a half months picking the Rhymes and I chose the Rhymes. I'd lie enough from more The Sounds than anything else because he that to me when I was asked by my publisher to do a Mother Goose collection. I was thrilled because you know here I've been talkin about helping young people to learn reading and a Mother Goose book is a lapbook and that's the way you teach Rhymes and my good friend Donald Hall wrote a very nice article in Time Magazine a while back saying that he thought it was time to get show. When to start memorizing poetry again it standing up in or rating poetry by his grandfather who would or rate and that's one of the joys of the Mother Goose collection. I've met people young people people in their 30s who don't know many of the Rhymes that are in the book. I chose Rhymes that would be familiar and also unfamiliar. There's over five thousand different nursery rhymes and so others only 200 in the book, but I tried to pick Rhymes that are appropriate for pictures as well. I didn't want something that I couldn't illustrate because every rhyme is Illustrated, which is also a very important point in this collection. Are there many collections out there, but this is the first time every single rhyme and in the longer Rhymes every single stanza is Illustrated because The Opie's Peter and Iona Opie where the great nursery rhyme experts in England said that the collection for children should be totally Illustrated because that's what's going to help the child to learn the Rhymes which will then help them with verbal skills, which then eventually will help him with reading skills and his way to learn to read. Yes very much chill in the early stages of learning words to the rhyming is is an excellent way that your language development through rhyming is been researched and found to be very very effective. Also. This is one right my love in its ickle ockle blue bottle and I'd love to talk any love nonsense words in illustrator book by Daniel pinkwater called the Woogie norple story and my nephew Patrick thought that was the greatest book that was ever written and Illustrate that I might have he memorized all these wonderful name is very quickly and I love it. And I think the young children love sounds don't they they really loved make up words even so and I hope that I hope that the book will do well because it is my real contribution to the really young child out there the lap book the meal that the two year old Mother Goose rhymes by tomie. DePaola still a lot of callers waiting will try and get in as many as we can. We've only got about 15 minutes remaining in the program. Go ahead pleased with your question Mike. My question is this I mean, I realize it's little kids. I'm an older person can I can't read that well, Pronunciation of a word in all it's like it's like us arguing anything you just saying. I can't pick that folk up and read it, but how do I learn to do that? Because I don't like to go out to public could save the world. I can't read. I'll hang up. Thank you. One of the most effective ways that I have found for adults to learn how to read is to have another adult to teach them and that is with the Minnesota Literacy Council with which with another caller indicated that those who volunteer can follow a very procedural kind of way of learning the skills and teaching that person to learn how to read and in my response would be the reason that you can't look at those sounds this because you don't have the the decoding skills are the phonics to unlock the words that you need to do and if an adult can't read he still needs to go back to learn that sound symbol relationship and how to attack those words and in one of those ways is through Minnesota Literacy Council their literacy Volunteers of America's another program. There are programs around and in literacy 85 now call literacy resources Incorporated in the in the Twin Cities area has a list of programs right within the Met. Tualatin area here that provides information on where you can go to get help and that that's an excellent resource from Paynesville Minnesota. Are there as many literacy programs available to adult in the smaller communities as there are in the Twin Cities know there are not there are more opportunities here in the Twin Cities where where more people reside but in the Painesville area to I'm sure that the adult basic Community continuing education program of their school or in that area out literacy project. I believe could be found by calling the Minnesota Literacy Council also and finding out what the closest project he is and trying to forget the help are the school districts are most of those programs as you mentioned the one on one type of thing because he obviously was not very interested in going into a large group situation there is there are a variety of Headed there is the one-on-one. There's also the small class we have right here in in the in the Saint Paul Area that technology for Literacy Center, which has the microcomputer in it that the person can sit down at the micro and also try to improve the scales but it would depend upon at which level to get to Aldia's you fine. If they can't are there are non Raider can't really read it all they really need to go back to the very beginning level. And that's where the one-on-one really provides the additional kind of help to be able to do that. They want to improve their skills that they and they can do that on some of the software that are available through the through the microcomputer and so it depends upon what skills are bringing with them to the task me to call lynnell Greenfield. Go ahead about teaching young children to read. I have a four-year-old and we read to him a lot. He loves reading you love. Redtube and I can see that he wants to learn how to read now himself and I'd love to keep him but he can't pronounce all that call his sounds well like Vanessa's and Allison and I wondered if that would really be a big detriment in his learning to read now. And if I should wait until he has that down. I really believe that you can continue to work with your four-year-old by reading those books with those sounds and reading the rhyming books and having him look for four words that would rhyme in the pronunciation of certain of those sounds like the owl sound and they are those are just speech development kinds of things that will happen along the way later. I would not try to correct him. I would let him pronounce at the way. He's doing what you always provide the right model and an end in doing that. And if you would over stress that then you're going to cause it to be too much of a burden but the reading the books to them and and talkin about the sounds and just pronouncing it and trying it over and again and then going on and then coming back and it's a developmental kind of thing at the especially with a four-year-old in learning how to make some of those sounds it's it's it's a matter of of working at it expected to know how to read The time to get to kindergarten at least to some degree. No, but some of them will because of the home background that they come from and so you find a variety of arrange. I didn't mention that before about this car with it the Junior High in the trade books, but the reading range in an elementary in a junior high school the better the teaching The Wider the reading range will become in schools because Those who have the language when they first come to kindergarten and can already read don't remain static while the other ones are trying to catch up language just bills on each other in it and they continue to go with other ones are are going at their developmental patient. So you'll see parallel lines, but they won't necessarily catch up. And so it's a matter that you have to deal with those individual differences and try to establish teaching strategies and ways of of providing count for those students in and that's the challenge of a teacher and the end that's that's the work that the teacher has before the person in the junior high, especially in the senior high for the content area to teach you to think of the strategies of how to reach those children and III how to reach those students in Reading those trade book will help those who need the help to get here the concept but it will also maybe stifle those know how to read it on their own and get it on their own. have to adjust Go to my next caller with a question. Go ahead and please. We might have to limit this. I'm sorry to just one question because we have a number of people waiting and not much time left OK better. But at least in the adult basic education programs in which I work in which I've seen teaches they do help people individually. So they even if he's in a larger group, he doesn't need to feel that he wouldn't have the same kind of activity he would when he was back in first grade. The first question I have is that for number of older adults. I have seen people who need to spell the word before they can recognize it and I'm wondering what happened in there earlier learning that they need to do that and my second question is what is the relationship between being able to write a sentence of some kind of sequential order and being able to answer comprehension questions that you can't copy a direct answer from the paper. Yeah, she's getting to spell the word before they can pronounce it. The person is is working on the sounds of the word to put it together to make they must have a strategy within their own attack mechanism to be able to say I have to spell it and think of the sounds and NF at act words in that way in learning to read the phonics the reading to putting the sounds down in the papers a little different than then spelling a word you have to think about. How does the word look like in spelling it correctly, but in reading your ear, correct, your you're saying in what order do the letters come in and what order are those sounds being made and then can match it with a word already. I have in my listening and speaking vocabulary and I I believe that's just the method of attack that that person has has has used is that Question about writing it down, then it might be more difficult for people if they have a word in their head to put it down on a piece of paper. Yes. It would it would be more difficult because when you have a word in your head and you're going to transpose it to the paper that the e sound the short e or the short I sound can take on so many different ways of spelling and and how do I know how I'm going to put it down correctly? But unless I can picture the word already or have a mental image of that word in my head and put it down because there are different ways of spelling that same sound and and so I sort of have to get a visual a visual memory or some rule that will allow me to say I before E except after C. And you know what those kind of feels good. Okay, we'll go to another caller with the question for I guess go ahead interested in one of my main problems. I've had to read for so long because you know for whatever reason graduate school. What have you listen real hard for me to read for pleasure. And one of the things that I think Paula may be out of modesty didn't mention to Christine sweet reads to us every morning about all the other books that person is written. But what are some other ways to interest people and it seems like to me that sometimes the library seem so unfriendly. I think I think that those well, I don't know about here, but I think the days of the unfriendly Library are certainly disappearing quickly throughout the country. Thank goodness. I had a very frightening Library when I was growing up a tree called The Librarian the children's librarian in a dragon the dragon is that at the desk but you know, I do think that there I've been in situations where it you know, that maybe even some teachers are to blame about well, you don't read for pleasure you've read so you'll pass your tests and there's a big concern of from reading teacher that I know that and why y'all we're being held accountable they're saying and it's so hard for us to let children read for pleasure. I came from a household where that was just the opposite. My brother was not a reader my brother never became a reader. My mother was an Avid Reader still is I don't know about my sister's we've never discussed it. I think one of them probably is a Very Avid read the other one probably got out of the Habit because she had babies so quickly and didn't read aloud to them and I scolded her about that, but I was allowed to read for pleasure as well as having to do my reading for my school work. But I was I was very weird cuz I read the encyclopedia. I thought reading the encyclopedia was wonderful just found out I think you're so unusual good but you know, my parents made sure that we had all the stuff available. We had three sets of encyclopedias in our house. We have the world book The Book of Knowledge in the Encyclopedia Britannica. I was allowed to read comic books as well. I I get very worried when I see parents. They know you. My children are not going to read comic books or or kind of junk food reading. I have my junk food books that when I'm traveling I I try to find a book that's not going to like that. The autobiography of a movie star is really great for reading on an airplane, you know, but I Think that we I don't know whether it's an old ethic or wear it whether it's something that is taught in school that you know, but a good friend of mine Arena odland who teaches children's literature at the University constantly screen. You've got to let children read for pleasure. You can't say all right now write a book report on this book. Let them just read a book. Let them have find a book that they like and that I think for this woman. She probably can't read for pleasure cuz she hasn't maybe found something that she really wants to read about. Maybe she's been so brainwashed there simply hasn't been time by the treasure reading and then adults don't know what is good anymore. And I believe that it is that is great. I love that. It's a 1 to see the parents read and into and school. You're right. We sometimes don't take the time to it to her. Have them read for pleasure. Just making that time available to do that because we think every minute of the school day has got to be used for instruction when in fact reading for pleasure. It is very much related to increasing the reading skills in the independence of of that and that is also instruction, but it's a self-instruction and a pleasure that that is teaching an attitude in an interest in so we have to be very much aware that that's part of the schooling as well as the instruction of the skills as part of the school and have to make time for that in the day to do that. But then you get someone like me who loves to read for pleasure. It does not want to read for study purposes. And that's another prop one thing that we have an address it. We only have about two and a half or two minutes remaining in the program. So I'm afraid we won't be able to take any more calls. We could have gone for 2 hours easily today. One of the things that we did not talk about though is there is a lot of work being done now in the area of learning disabilities. Learning styles. Is this something that adults who are not able to learn when they were in school coming back now might be able to eat to address themselves more to a certain style of learning how to read that wasn't available to them when they were in school. I believe that we have made great strides in the area of learning disabilities and learning styles and that we have tried to accommodate through different mode at modalities or also small groups the way in working with schools with children and with some of the adults with again the Minnesota Literacy Council we've had I've trained tutors who said I'm a I'm a special ed or learning disabled teacher and I really think this is the way that this program presented in small concise components in blending really causes it to be learned whether the adult would have a learning disability or not and it can be put together in that kind of way. So we've learned a great deal more but that that's not a very not an easy answer to say, how can we but if the motivation is there in the interest is there they really can accomplish great strides. We should make a plug for this afternoon. We have listeners in the st. Cloud area Tommy. Treehouse book store, which is in St. Cloud from signing books from 3 to 5 and maybe till 7 who knows if it's a great it's a children's only bookstore and it's a wonderful wonderful place and I'll be there signing my new books and some of my back was titled very good. And tomie dePaola is nubuck is a collection of Mother Goose nursery rhymes, and I'm sure you'll be through here again next year. Can we come and Greenfield a reading specialist with the Minnesota Department of Education? Thank you both so much for coming in this afternoon. My pleasure. It's been a great deal of fun reiterate to our listeners something that we told him about earlier, but there is a Travelers advisory out for this afternoon in the central and southern portions of our region were expecting us a light snow in the north and lights. No possibly mixed with freezing drizzle in the South and Central portions of the region high today in the twenties in the North to the middle thirties in the south. Technical direction for midday today provided by Randy Johnson and Dave sleep with assistance from Sarah Meyer. I'm Paula Schroeder. This is the news and information service of Minnesota Public Radio. Ksjn Minneapolis-Saint Paul coming up now on one and specifically for the Twin Cities area. Yes that Travelers advisory does apply to our area with lights. No possibly mixed it turns with freezing drizzle expected for this afternoon. AP Network news on Wendell goler future peace are the themes in Veterans Day ceremonies across the country today. There were parades in Boston Los Angeles New York and dozens of smaller towns and in several places the day was set aside for Americans who served in Vietnam flag attended one such ceremony in Tallahassee. Standard Veterans Day in Tallahassee. Sure, there was the traditional parade complete with high school bands and even some tank no local reserve unit veterans parade. The freckles were driven by Vietnam veterans who had the starring role.