(00:00:00) It's now 12:00 noon, and we are here today to discuss once again human rights. We've had a series of Human Rights programs. The last two Tuesday's we began with the Nuremberg tapes two weeks ago with the dick Oaks dean of the Hamline law school last Tuesday on midday. We discussed human rights abuses in several countries. We tried to determine how to define abuses and identify the people subject to those abuses today. We have as our guest three people active in non-governmental organizations, which are trying to alleviate human rights abuses around the world. They are David Weiss brought former national board Vice chair of Amnesty International. He also worked in the legal offices of Amnesty International in London, David Weiss brought his currently a law professor at the University of Minnesota and still very active in Amnesty International are another guest is Hennepin County District, Judge Roberta Levy. I'm a member of the lawyers committee for Soviet jewry specifically a member of the, Minnesota. Holder's action committee for Soviet. Jewry also a with us today is Sam Hines president of the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee. He also has a private law practice in the Twin Cities area. Welcome to all three of you. First of all before we talk about what it is. You do perhaps we can discuss whether there is an international law governing human rights under which you work David is there I think the thing I (00:01:26) think there is indeed that law comes in some ways from the Nuremberg Charter that set up the tribunal that dealt with the war criminals that you were dealing with in your first program, which talked about war crimes and said that there are certain things called war crimes which which they defined in the Nuremberg Charter and which have become accepted by all countries as things that you shouldn't do like kill folks and and commit essentially genocide during periods of War. But after World War II the United Nations was set up and set up. Among other things to make sure that such things as happened during the Nazi period wouldn't happen again and under Articles 55 and 56 of the UN Charter all UN members undertake an obligation to fulfill certain restrictions as to Human Rights and essentially say that one shouldn't discriminate by on the basis of race and one shouldn't commit violations of human rights. And then after that the United Nations is elaborated number of norms. There are now up to 50 treaties which established Norms having to do with human rights in which say that one shouldn't torture one shouldn't kill arbitrarily one shouldn't imprisoned for reasons of race religion politics and these treaties have been ratified depending on which trade you once talking about the international Covenant on civil and political rights, which incorporates most of the things we have in our own domestic Bill of Rights has been ratified. And by over 70 countries the some of the other treaties quite a number more that the Geneva conventions for example, which is taken as somewhat separate track has been ratified by over a hundred and fifty countries and deals with problems not only in periods of War but also internal armed conflict and then in addition to that there are domestic laws in the United States which incorporate principles of international human rights, the best known ones of these are restrictions on foreign assistance to countries that commit violations of human rights and the language of the section 502 B of the foreign assistance act for example talks about committing a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights and that language suggests the existence of international Norms as to human rights under which all of us must work. If we're going to try to encourage countries not to violate those human rights one for the statement and that is that that Obviously the existence of these Norms doesn't mean that they're not violated just as we have laws against robbery and burglary and yet we continue to have robbery and burglary unfortunately. So that one can't expect too much and saying that well just because they're the laws that means everyone's going to obey them. (00:04:19) Okay, we're talking about non-governmental organizations today, of course governments can try and alleviate human rights abuses but one thing that David Weiss brought has written in let me see if I have the contribution of international nongovernmental organizations to the protection of Human Rights. I quote wise brought the pointed finger of Shame particularly when directed by an organization with some appearance of impartiality and political Independence has caused executions to be stayed death sentences to be commuted torture to be stopped prison conditions to be ameliorated prisoners to be released and more attention to be paid to the fundamental rights of many. Those are some rather Monumental accomplishments. I would think how does one go about improving human rights as an independent non-governmental organization. Well, that's a marvelous question. I wish I knew the oh I'm talking here. All right. I wish I knew the answer the Soviet jewry group that we're just trying to get started and one of the one of the reasons I'm here hopefully is to ask for comments from people out in the field that they'll call and tell us what they think we can do David's comment on shame is obviously we are we start we assume what we publicize if we shame if we embarrass if we put as much pressure as we possibly can if as a group of lawyers, we have some credibility perhaps that credibility will be recognized if we hear of individual cases and we failed and Deluge the country with with letters and telegrams, perhaps we can do something something we know of cases in which in which Western outrage has actually helped (00:06:07) There are two aspects of lawyers skills. I think that can be brought to bear on human rights problems. One is the notion that the skills that are useful in adjusting civil grievances between people in the society regulating the exchange of money and so on the skills involved in the private practice of law can be useful in the human rights context the skills of gathering and organizing facts finding the law applying the law to the facts those fundamental legal practice skills can be useful. We hope and we believe the other approach that the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee believes in I guess is that the lawyers can be useful in keeping an eye on the plight of professionals Co professionals lawyers in other societies simply by reading the New York Times in a regular basis. We see every week instances of lawyers doing Sorts of things Minnesota lawyers due in court in foreign countries where to do. So represents a real risk, perhaps lawyers in Minnesota can focus on the risks taken by their Co professionals elsewhere to make their task easier. We think we can do that. We've have relations with bar associations and various countries to try to focus on that kind of problem and that we hope is another way in which Minnesota lawyers can be useful in connection with human rights (00:07:40) before we go on. I'd like to remind our listeners that they can call in questions to Our Guest today. The number in the Twin Cities is 2276 thousand if you're calling from outside the metropolitan area, but from within the state of Minnesota, the toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 can nongovernmental organizations go into countries where our US Government may have problems. Talking with the government in that country and do something to alleviate human rights abuses (00:08:13) indeed. That's one of the strengths of non-government organizations particularly International ones in the sense that they may be based someplace else Amnesty International of course is based in London and is has got members in over 150 countries but its strengths are in about 42 or 43 countries where it has sections and it's and from London are sent missions to a number of countries where it would be difficult for for example us entirely us delegation to go and on these missions, they might do a number of things the the one that might relate for example to something the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee could do is for example send our trial Observer a lawyer who would go to a trial and watch to see whether the trial is fair whether the laws are just under which the trial is held and (00:09:07) To in some countries do they permit lawyers to come in observers to come? (00:09:10) Well there there are over 70 countries have have a permitted observers. Now, sometimes they have a rough time in the country. But most of the time the government the government's are obligated to keep the trials open by international law. And then the problem is that if for example in the Soviet Union, that's the I was just going to point out of (00:09:31) Soviet Union. They don't permit even relatives to come in (00:09:34) in in some cases and in some cases not it there there have been a few observers to Russian two trials in the Soviet Union and often they spend their time out in the Halls talking to family members who have been in and then make a report based on that. It's not the best thing that could happen but on the other hand, it's much better to have the Observer there and in by his or her presence to influence all the participants to be a little bit concerned about how they conduct themselves, but even outside and All that individuals presence is well known and and the individuals inside know that there's somebody watching which is one of the ways that one implements international human rights and there are other kinds of missions for example to determine facts as to what's going on in a particular human rights situation for example visit to a prison to determine whether there might be might have been torture and and in some cases governments feel that that they have they're compelled to let those Mission delegates in even if even if the facts that are discovered thereafter or not complementary to the government it sometimes looks worse to to cover up then to let a fair and free observation of the process go on and then a report based on it and the government then tries to take action to handle the problem and they're quite a number of governments who want to know what they can. Do to improve their human rights situation and their non-governmental organizations can suggest for example, that one shouldn't have incommunicado detention. If you want to avoid torture (00:11:19) there. There may be a misconception of some people than that. Human rights abuses are all state-sanctioned. Are they our governments just as willing to have you there and report on possible human rights abuses as not have you there? (00:11:38) Well, most of the most the problem of violations not only by governments also by terrorist groups is worldwide and and sometimes the government's will argue that their human rights violations are based upon their their response to the terrorist attacks on the government and often they want you in the government in the country to among other things to try to figure out why the violations occurred and what what the government can do about them. Hopefully to bring an end to all the injuries to human beings. (00:12:16) Okay Warden way that I see and what you said is that governments need respectability and even the most authoritarian government seems to feel that it has to respond to that. (00:12:27) And also I think that (00:12:29) we can deal with that I think and respond (00:12:31) to that I agree with that and not only that but I think that they feel that they that vis-à-vis their citizens that they have to have a Amount of respectability and if they lose that sense that they're doing something for their people. They they at that point lose the right to govern (00:12:46) like Hitler and Karen stud. Is that the name that I get the name right? I'm not sure it was the show concentration camp in which he permitted the Red Cross to come in and it was all show and he had showhouses just just fronts of houses and people dressed up for the occasion and the group came in and investigated and came out and said it looks fine. (00:13:09) Well, obviously obviously one has to cut a cut behind the realities of that. Yeah. I know of a number of cases where prison missions have gone and and found that they ended up talking to actors and and so one has to be very careful when you have one of these missions to make sure that you find the (00:13:26) fax. How do you train people? (00:13:30) Well, it's (00:13:31) interesting question (00:13:34) answer that question a little bit but it's not easy. The the fact is that the that the best thing to do is to have folks who have had the experience of among other things being lawyers. I mean, you're learning you're trained as a judge to determine what the facts are and so you might be a very good man. I won't comment on that process. (00:13:53) We have a couple of callers waiting on the line with questions for our guests. If you want to put your listening phones on we have a caller right now. Are you ready with your question? Yes, go ahead. You have gotten into making an accusation seriously about the Soviet Union yet. I assume that you will my question is to the moderator and that is do you know where that you can get the Soviet response to these accusations. You know where to find the response. I assume that you don't otherwise you'd have occasionally would have someone on the air perhaps with these people perhaps another day with the response of the Soviet people to these accusations. That is something that is under discussion and we can talk about that after the program will go on to the next caller. Go ahead please with your question. I just got through telling her it isn't a question of some sort. I hope I'm giving to this program that I have listened to regularly when I'm able and very thankful that I was able to catch these people we participate in writing for the Amnesty International. We would like to have some more people join us. I'd like to give a couple telephone numbers and names to anybody who might be listening who might like to see what this is about and participate or are give it a try. Is that all right? Okay. Okay. Our name is Stowe. It's Bob and Jeanne stole its Dow and we live. Dayton's Bluff area. Our telephone number is 7 7 6 33 35 (00:15:41) What group are you a member (00:15:42) of well, this group started at the Viper Unitarian Church in madami day. However, there are just a couple of us couples who are persistent with this unitarians are pretty mobile people and we don't keep and it's a small group. So we'd like to open it up to people that maybe live, you know in our area possibly the other couple our Victor and Janet or bana widths and their telephone number is seven seven eight one six two four. They live a little north of us. They live in Nevada. And and I think this is Maybe Maplewood feel sure but we meet in each other's homes about once a month and we have received material from Amnesty International so we know what the right to and it's really not as as hard as it sounds but it's nice to do it together. We think and so we'd like to invite others to join with us if they would like to is that how non-governmental organizations get started generally is some people that have a vague interest in the subject and then get involved in it. How did the Minnesota lawyers committee come (00:17:09) about? Interest was expressed by lawyers principally in practice in the metropolitan area. We had some advantages going for us in Minnesota. One of them course was Professor weisbrot who is very expert. We also have present in the legal Community Mayor Don Fraser who when he was in Congress was instrumental in writing and enacting some legislation the David referred to earlier that links human rights reports and human rights abuse situations to various kinds of Aid and this country. There was a core group of lawyers who wanted to undertake forming the committee and a since that time the the word is got out really by very casual sorts of ways and the response has been tremendous. We've grown we've got support from the Hennepin County Bar Foundation. We have inquiries from all quarters. We have more work than we can do with volunteer lawyers, and it's just very gratifying sort. The outpouring of interest and commitment on behalf of members of the bar. (00:18:17) Okay. Another caller has a question for our guest today. Go ahead. And please yes, good afternoon. I have two questions one is that are your organization's based on monitoring criminal trials or let's say trials that are based on political grounds in the various countries and to let's say in this country, you know, we have our form of punishment based on culture and history but then in some other countries such as Saudi Arabia, there are differences of punishment and I think there are extremes and they're based on culture and historical points. How how do you reconsider reconcile those type of differences? And when you do go to monitor, these trials are tried to make comments. Do you also take into consideration those historical and political text those points? (00:19:07) Well, first the most of the trials that are observed by international human rights organizations are criminal trials in which someone is at risk of being imprisoned normally for reasons that are related to politics. Although there are exceptions. For example, there were trial observers at the inquest of Steven Biko in South Africa where obviously he had already passed away and the question was who had killed him and why the there is another trial that's presently being considered for observation in South Africa or actually in Namibia in which a proceeding is occurring in in windhoek in which family members of those who are imprisoned in a secret detention camp in Namibia are asking for their loved ones to be released from the secret detention camp and and it's actually a civil proceeding on behalf of the families to see if they can get there. We members out the the question you asked about cultural differences in a national human rights obviously is a very complicated question. The basic international human rights Norms are ones that Saudi Arabia and all the governments of the world have accepted and although there are some cultural differences the concept for example of torture cruel inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, which is the international Norm has been accepted by all countries and the most authoritative interpretation of that Norm for example is has been made by a body called the human rights committee, which is established under the international Covenant on civil and political rights and the human rights committee has decreed that mutilation, which is one of the punishments in Saudi Arabia is a violation of that Norm and shouldn't be done. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen in Saudi Arabia, but that Saudi Arabia when it comes before these International bodies will be sized for its conduct (00:21:09) Alright, I believe we have another caller waiting on the line with the question. Go ahead please hello. Anyone there? (00:21:17) Let me let me while we're waiting for that call for next caller. Let me answer the first question that the that the gentleman raised about the response of the Soviet Union there. I have been involved in on occasion and making complaints against the Soviet Union in the United Nations and they avoid making written responses often. They'll make they'll attempt to make those responses in closed meetings so that they don't have an opera so that no one can hear what their response is and they take very seriously this whole process and try to avoid any damage to the reputation from the from the difficulty. They would have in responding to criticism for example about about political prisoners in Soviet Union or difficulties and of of Fews Nets who want to leave this Soviet Union there is one process that has forced them to come out from that closed those closed rooms. And that's the Helsinki process wherein for example in Madrid they were forced to respond in some ways to the complaints about human rights But there again their principal a way of handling this problem when they are forced to come out is to make counter-attacks. They don't defend what they do. What they say is you're just as bad as we are and then they just talk about the treatment of blacks in the United States a treatment of Indians in the United States the treatment of moluccan sand and Netherlands, etc, etc. And they don't usually have very much to say about what they do to their own citizens, but they try to counter-attack which in some times as productive one example of that is the case of the Wilmington 10. I think that one Radio Moscow picked up the case of the Wilmington North Carolina the it was very soon thereafter. They were obviously Lots of other people who are working on their behalf. Amnesty International had adopted them as prisoners of conscience. And there were many people all over the world who are concerned about that case. But when when the Radio Moscow picked up that case, I think that in the end the pressures came to bear and and the most and they were released from prison. (00:23:28) So we respond to the need for respectability (00:23:30) also, that's right. (00:23:32) Okay. I think we have our caller on the line now. Go ahead with your question here talking about Soviet Union Saudi Arabia places were Chances Are Much results of having any kind of results are poor. There's any be investigated the conduct of one of our best friends Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the conditions are they keep the prisoners prisoners and the torture of the put them through This has been going on for years held without trial with Justin suspicion and I don't think we do anything about this yet were supplied with our allies written with plastic bullets rifles. So on and might say that a publica island their justice system is deteriorating as well and are not much better. I'll hang up now. Okay. Is there a reluctance on the part of even nongovernmental organizations to get involved with allies of the United States in human rights abuses (00:24:41) all these organizations are independent of government. That's the whole strength of the non-government organizations that they can work independent of governments and therefore in criticized governments. If they were to get too close to any particular government, they'd be in they'd have difficulties of the kind that you're mentioning responding to the question about the United Kingdom. The amnesty International's principal concern in the Northern Ireland as it's been expressed to the government of the United Kingdom has been the fairness of the proceedings of what's known as the dip lock courts, which essentially provide for non jury trials. There's no jury trials in Northern Ireland and and one can understand the reasons that these trials is that they've gotten rid of juries if you think of a very very divided country and it's very difficult to get a job. Worried that will agree or that can be fair. When when you have a country that is divided as Northern Ireland is and and yet the fairness of the proceedings themselves and the way that they're they've worked out the proceedings. There are some real concerns about the way they've put together the courts in addition. There's some real problems about ill treatment because one of the things that they have relied on a good deal is confessions and if they can't confessions, they can't get convictions and so they go out to get convictions and they get them perhaps by means which are which suggests a possibility of ill-treatment and amnesties made concerning its concerns about that known there are other problems about killings in the streets where it's unclear as to whether the police are responsible or exactly how the killings occurred and those are have been investigated by amnesty and a number of other human rights organizations. (00:26:28) I know that the Minnesota lawyers committee has a list of projects. And of course Amnesty International. I'm sure has has a list of projects as does the committee for Soviet. Jewry. Is there an effort to prioritize cases? You know, what takes precedence over one over another. (00:26:46) It's a difficult problem choosing One-Shots particular using volunteer lawyers. And I think that's one of our strengths that we use volunteer lawyers the priority. I think the system for picking priorities is to find someone who's interested in will actually do it. There is an infinite amount of work to be done and it's simply a matter of following up on the on the work that that arouses interest one project just to illustrate involved a request from amnesty to our group with respect to the standards to be applied in the conduct of autopsies and inquests the inquiry arose after the death of Benigno Aquino where there was significant question as to whether or not the handling of the dead body had been appropriate whether or not evidence to be in fact to be it could be ascertained from an examination of the body. I've been handled properly amnesty asked us and The Philippines and corrected amnesty asked us to furnish a review of Minnesota law with respect to the conduct of inquest and autopsy as we were we were able to do without great trouble as I understand that amnesty is put that to work and one item in a survey in promulgating standards to be one would hope internationally adopted for the handling of dead bodies and the conduct of autopsies and inquests to determine as accurately and scientifically as possible. What what cause death that was one project in which we've been we were able to make a real contribution and projects of that sort of gratifying to be in her mid involvement. (00:28:34) We are talking today with Sam Hines that is who has just been speaking president of the Minnesota lawyers committee for international human rights David weisbrot is also here. He is a law professor at the University of Minnesota and formerly worked in the legal offices of Amnesty International and his former national board Vice chair. Although we also with us today is Hennepin County District Judge were brutally V who is a member of the Minnesota Dakota's action committee for Soviet jewelry. It's 12:30. We are taking questions from listeners. You can call us at two to seven six thousand in the Twin Cities outside the metropolitan area. The number is 1-800-695-1418 have another caller waiting on the line with the question. Go ahead please hi. I'm less of a weeks only interested in the study International has increased. Due to some editorials that are read by some members of the group. It's made me want to get involved and use with telling to do have for the betterment of the organization. I've looked in the phone book and haven't been able to find a number and I'm wondering if you'd help me out that area. (00:29:41) I have a funny story to tell about that, you know that that article in the newspaper, mr. Fix it or whatever. It is. That's in the Minneapolis Tribune where he answers questions and someone just like you had to write in to find out how you get in touch with Amnesty International. I finally ended up giving my telephone number. So let me give you it and it's my office number and and I'll be back in my office in an hour or two as you can give me a ring and I'll give you the the other addresses. The my office number is 3/7 32724. I should say that the Amnesty International Group in Minneapolis area is meeting this coming Sunday at 4 p.m. And I can give you the dress. When when you give me a ring. That number again is 3/7 32724 (00:30:28) that moment that speak somewhat about the the makeup of Amnesty International. It's a very much of a almost a neighborhood based organization, isn't it? (00:30:37) Well, that's true. Although in fact, maybe we're not quite as organizing in, Minnesota. With we have about a dozen groups around the state and there are groups in South Dakota. I think one group in Bismarck area in North Dakota and there are over 300 groups around the country. There are National offices and an international office of amnesty and and there are somewhat more structured and perhaps at those offices. But for the most part it is the strength of the organization has been its members and their individual work just as the caller who called in and told about a little bit about the writing letters in the groups, which is exactly what honesty does usually groups meet about once a month and they're not necessarily lawyers. In fact amnesty is an under lawyered organization, which is one of the reasons that the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee has been helpful to it because since there are relatively few lawyers in amnesty and mostly volunteers sometimes for example, they need help in researching the Law related to a case that they that a group might be assigned. (00:31:41) Okay another All are waiting on the line with question. Go ahead. Please calling from st. Paul ask my question and hang up. My question is about amnesty International's role in investigating. The alleged excessive has in the treatment of prisoners in Northern Ireland. I haven't read much in the papers about this but the the official spokesman for the Northern Ireland government said that the government had challenged Amnesty International to put up or shut up that is provide some hard evidence of mistreatment of prisoners and then they went on to say that amnesty could not provide any evidence of any mistreatment and so amnesty then backed off. What can you tell me about that? (00:32:26) The well, I don't think that Accords with my understanding of the facts the biggest problem in with respect to mistreatment of prisoners in Northern Ireland occurred several years ago. I believe about 1975 76 77 in which there were very credible allegations of mistreatment in the prison's the what happened was amnesty sent a mission to to the prison's talk with prisoners talk with guards talked with the prison wardens came back and wrote a report. The report was submitted to the government as is the normal practice and the government responded by having their own Blue Ribbon commission sent to Northern Ireland to investigate the situation as a result of that mission number of the procedures for investigations of crimes in Northern Ireland were changed essentially. What happened was that they no longer require as they did before that there be a Before the before there be a conviction and that single change has resulted in a considerable decrease in mistreatment problems. Now that doesn't mean that they've stopped but the that that worst problem I think has stopped and the problems now are things like what do the prisoners where and and more more slightly benign problems. Although I should say that and I'm now speaking as an individual not for amnesty that prison conditions in the entire of the British Isles are not very nice. It's not a place their old prisons. They're overcrowded. They're not well taken care of and I don't think if I God forbid would ever have to spend time in a prison that that would be a place that I'd like to spend it, but that and as a result. There are a lot of complaints against the Brit United Kingdom in the In the European human rights structure and British. The Britain has had the answer to a lot of complaints about just mistreatment in the prison's of a general sort and rather than just torture and in a case after case, they've had to answer to those criticisms and try to respond and the basic the problem is the institutions themselves outmoded and old and overcrowded. (00:34:48) Okay, another caller with a question. Go ahead please my on the air. Yes. May I ask since as we said earlier in the program so much of the machinery for Amnesty International seems to stem from the Nuremberg trials. Could I ask have we finally kind of put to death the ex post facto character of that trial were some 16 people were actually hanged for things that were declared to be illegal. On a nationwide or an international scale much after the fact that that still threat seems to bother me and I presume few others. (00:35:29) You're not alone. However, their my view on that subject is that the conduct of the individuals who were found culpable during the Nuremberg proceedings is based on the concept that they that everyone knew that the kind of conduct. They were committing during World War II and before it were violations of international law and there is a concept of customary international law, which is the agreement of all countries and that's what Nuremberg Charter is based on essentially Nuremberg Charter is merely a restatement of that customary international law. That doesn't mean that they're it isn't the case that this was a trial of those who are The Victors against those who were the vanquished and so from a pure fairness procedural point of view there were difficulties, but but on on on the substance, I don't think anyone could defend the conduct of those. the visuals or tried (00:36:31) The Holocaust of course is has not gone away. Even now. I noticed that on the project list for Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee. There is one to represent a Polish immigrant in gaining reparations from the German government for her imprisonment in a Polish concentration camp during World War Two. I know that either Sam or David could probably speak to this. Is this an individual case or are we seeing more and more of these around the country even now (00:37:01) I couldn't speak to the statistical incidence of them and perhaps it's only appropriate to address this one instance because we are engaged in representation of a client and very general way the we're simply petitioning and behalf of Minnesota residents for from a fund which is set up a hardship cases for victims of the Holocaust survivors of concentration camps, and we were simply following through in the established procedures to try to get some economic benefit for this woman (00:37:34) So there are still some some help available to victims of the Holocaust (00:37:38) there is I think at this point it's fair to say that it's quite Limited in scope. The many years of some years have passed and the procedures and for reparations have been by and large exhausted. I think many victims at this point face the statutes of limitations problems and it's a matter of getting dealing with those problems to try to find access to hardship funds such as this (00:38:05) okay listeners want to call us and ask questions of our guests the number in the Twin Cities 2276 thousand outside the metropolitan area of one 865 to 97 hundred another caller has a question. Go ahead. Okay, I'm wondering why the United States has not signed the major human rights covenants that were referred to early in the program by Professor by scrotum. What does chances he thinks that it might do? So in the future. I think there are waiting for this to be brought up. (00:38:37) Well, the United States has ratified the most important international human rights document. That's the United Nations Charter. So it is bound by its principal obligations and international human rights. It's also become a party to the American Declaration of Human Rights. So that one can one can is a US citizen ask that one's rights under international human rights law can need to be implemented. However, some of the most importance of the treaties the United States has not ratified it has however signed them President Carter signed in 1977. I believe it was the the principal International Covenant on civil and political rights International Covenant on economic. Making social social and cultural rights the President Johnson, I believe it was signed the racial discrimination convention. The those treaties had not been ratified by the US Senate or have not been accepted by the US Senate and of course two-thirds vote of the US Senate has to be obtained in order to get these treaties ratified right now most of the effort and during this period of the administration is to get the u.s. To occur at least accept the genocide convention being one that was was figured out during night. And I think it's was was published in 1948 and was signed closed shortly thereafter and yet still the United States hasn't ratified it and one should be able to get a consensus that that at least should be something the United States should take a stand against but even on that the u.s. Senate hasn't been very For now, I should say that our Minnesota Center is have been pretty good on this issue. And there's really no question that that all of them for at least four within my memory have all supported these treaties but there are a number of number of Senators who have refused to go along with it with any of these treaties fearing that somehow these treaties might come to haunt the United States. It's sort of a funny position they take they take a position that we're better than this we wouldn't do it. But on the other hand, we don't want it implied to us sort of somewhat contradictory position (00:40:54) dealing with the problems possibly associated with the United States government and I wanted to ask you judge Levy the the situation, of course with the Soviet Union in the political tensions have increased greatly in the last year between the United States and the Soviet Union in your work with the committee for Soviet. Jewry. Has that had an impact on your work. Well, it's had an impact. Generally. I mean Jewish people are not permitted to emigrate now. The figures are unbelievable in the 70s. It was something like 300,000 were permitted to leave and this past year 1300 were permitted to lie. We're told constantly of harassment of people who is soon as they apply for a Visa are they lose their jobs immediately. They are then charged with the parasites is MM which is one of the favorite charges and can be in prison for not having a job. They're all these things. We we here by Word of Mouth by people who have visited and who've talked to to refuse next few snakes of the people who've applied for a Visa and who've been refused that it does seem to be tightening up certainly in I know that professor and asked us was here last week talking about the Ukraine and it appears to be even more. So in the Ukraine that the incidence of persecution against Jews seems to have increased People who people are not not permitted to the study Hebrew are not permitted to to teach Hebrew in any way. It's dangerous in some parts to to attend any of the synagogues and any of the services of those people are under surveillance when we were there last year when we went to one of the we went to several synagogues. We were under surveillance and we're questioned by what we assume were KGB agents for simply being there as though we understand it's all tightening up whether or not that means that we should limit our context is something that we have to talk about and make some decisions about I really don't know up until now every every comment that we've gotten back from from people who have who just incredibly Brave and and make statements and and do things that are just they're putting themselves in danger up until now we've been told to increase their To increase the pressure and and that it all has some effect now. I'm really not sure whether that that's still true or not. But that's something that we're going to have to explore and hopefully get more reports back. Did you have something to add? Okay, we'll go to another caller with a question. Go ahead, please. Yes, you're on the air with cases of individual cases of political Asylum where people fear to be sent back to their country because they would be imprisoned or perhaps executed and whether people can call upon their help in those cases. Thank you. (00:43:54) Well to this point we haven't undertaken such cases. I think we've got the actually have (00:44:01) Pakistanian Christian in seeking political Asylum. You're right. It's on your list (00:44:08) we have before I will again (00:44:11) are you doing anything with El (00:44:12) Salvador? We have a member of the Human Rights Commission from El Salvador coming to town on my he's going to be here this Thursday, but he'll be coming to speak on on Monday, I believe and and he'll be speaking a he's a he's a lawyer from El Salvador. Actually who who is now has asylum in the United States who are seeking and I'm not sure about that because I met him yet. He's going to speak about the human rights situation in El Salvador on on Monday. He's also going to be speaking actually at that Amnesty International meeting. I mentioned before at four o'clock on Sunday this Sunday, so we'll be here for several days and he lives now in Iowa. So he may be coming again to the Twin Cities. (00:44:56) You didn't tell people where that meeting was that open (00:44:59) it is open and it's at a church in the Twin Cities and I'm afraid that I don't have the address and that's why I told you I gave my telephone number. I'm a little I'm on that was a good good question. I don't know the answer but I think in general that the the Sam might want to say something about the case of the of the the woman from Pakistan who were working on. David is reminding me we represent a remember of the group represents Pakistani and Christian who's seeking political Asylum and and assistance in dealing with the United States immigration authorities. And as I understand it to this point, we have been successful in the first stages of that with regard to whether or not the group exists to provide legal assistance and political Asylum cases. I it's a tough question. I guess the would not be able to return some of that equipped to deal with a with a significant demand for legal service. We as I suggested before have a more projects than we than we have people all of them worthy particular particular problems. I think could be brought to the attention of the committee would be happy to consider taking it on and trying to find an appropriate volunteer or at the very least referring someone with a particular problem to appropriate. Legal Assistance or referral agencies? (00:46:26) Okay. Another caller with a question. Go ahead, please. I'm calling from Duluth. I was wondering if Amnesty International still considered capital punishment as practiced in the United States a violation of Human Rights. (00:46:41) It does amnesty works on for issues in adopts prisoners of conscience. Those who have been in prison for reasons of race religion politics language sex and who have neither done or advocated violence Works Against torture works for fair trials for political prisoners and it works against the death penalty. I should say however that obviously as to that last item there is probably less World consensus on that issue than there are on other issues nevertheless amnesty considers the death penalty to the ultimate cruel inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. (00:47:16) Do you have you worked on any of the cases that have come up for prisoners who have been executed in this past year? (00:47:24) Yes indeed amnesties made appeals on quite a number of them and has tried through the courts through appeals to the government's for clemency essentially to try to make its position as well known as possible. It's been successful in some I don't think that France perhaps wouldn't have abolished capital punishment in the last couple of years without amnesties campaign against capital punishment. Similarly in Spain capital punishment has been abolished. Sometimes I have this suspicion that the government wanted to do it anyway and said well amnesty is pushing for us to do it and and used amnesties material and amnesties pressure as an excuse for doing what it wanted to do. Anyway, I think that was true perhaps in Metropolis case but in France, but nevertheless it's a worldwide campaign were pursuing the issue in every government and every country and in many countries. There is a real problem about the fairness of the proceedings of fairness of the trials such that one can't have the level of certainty one would like if we're going to one is going to kill somebody and even in the United States there have been cases where where capital punishment is imposed on somebody and it's later been discovered that that individual is most likely not guilty and as Result in the states where it's occurred the they've abolished capital punishment. Thank goodness in this state. Anyway, we don't have that problem because capital punishment is not a is not imposed. (00:48:53) Another caller has a question for our guest. Go ahead, please. I have a question on the complicity of the CIA and torture in foreign countries. There was a man speaking at the University was a former CIA operative and he was speaking that telling that the CIA was supplying Implements of torture and training to tortures of foreign governments, and I wondered if amnesty knew about that or had any information I was working on that. Thank you. (00:49:23) I know that during the period of the which there was a movie called state of Siege perhaps you saw it in which there was discussion about torture training and by the United States particularly training foreign police here in the United States and there was some consistent allegations that the that the United States was involved in such torture training that school for police on National the international Police Academy was closed down and yet there are some murmurings of a school in the Panama in Panama where Military Officers are trained and we're perhaps those things are going on. Although I don't I've never seen an amnesty report which which accepted those allegations as of now, but I'm pretty sure that they're investigating those got to remember that. I'm just a an individual member out in Minnesota and most of the research for Amnesty International is done in London by a referral large research Department, 70 or 80 people. Who are investigating such allegations as the one that was just suggested and I don't obviously know about all the investigations that are involved there, but I don't know of any report that has confirmed that that allegation. (00:50:40) Okay, another caller with a question for Sam Heinz David Weiss brought and Roberta Levy. Go ahead please I feel that one of the most important human rights, is that of freedom of movement? Freedom to do as you choose without harming someone else but in a lot of countries outside of North America and even one in it the police seem to be a force onto themselves and I was wondering if there's any group that is doing anything about the non-political. Aspects of human rights that are abused outside of outside of this country. and I'm not sure if we understand what you mean by non-political well in Mexico, if you're driving down the road and a policeman pulls you over and wants the money you either give it to him or you can end up spending a night in jail for something that you didn't even know was against the law and may not even be against the law and I've heard of this in several countries all over the world where the police seem to be able to just do as they please to tourists or two civilians or you know, anybody who comes along Does that come under the purview of a human rights abuse? (00:52:04) Well, it's certainly an arbitrary arrest if one if one heard those facts correctly. So the answer is yes there may however not be any organization that really takes those cases in hand. Certainly if a US citizen was involved. They might well be advised to seek assistance from obviously initially from their own Embassy, but the embassy has only limited resources in that respect and then then beyond that to perhaps a lawyer in the United States, who knows about how to deal with Americans abroad who are imprisoned but they're really at this stage in the international human rights movement one is dealing with the most serious problems the problems like Roberta was talking about of individuals who who for religious reasons want to just they want to go to synagogue and they want to go to church or those who want to be free from torture and and some of the the rights that were Described say arbitrary arrests are more difficult to research more difficult to get a world wide consensus about what was happening in that specific case. And therefore there are relatively few organizations that are dealing with those kind of what he described as non-political IE cases in which an individual is imprisoned for reasons that are fairly unclear. But when it when it can be determined that its political then or racial or religious then there are a number of organizations including the international Commission of jurists and the and for in specific areas, the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee and the Soviet jewry organization that all have concerns, (00:53:47) right? We've got time probably for one or possibly two more calls will go to the next one. Go ahead please am I understanding correctly? Then that Amnesty International does investigate problems in the US. How about the prison situation? here for instance (00:54:08) The answer that is that Amnesty International does work on all countries. However, there's a rule that individual citizen individual members of amnesty who are for example, US citizens can't work on cases in their own country. So that those investigations will be done else by its citizens from other countries. (00:54:26) Are there any ongoing that you're (00:54:27) aware of now? Yes, there are several cases and which I'm aware of them. I'm not doing them in which individual prisoners are being cases are being investigated to determine whether they might qualify as prisoners of conscience in the United States. (00:54:43) Okay. We have one caller left. We'll get it on in the last four minutes of the program. Go ahead please hi. I have a question about the activities of people involved in amethi international in this country compared with other countries. And that's basically how does the United States compared with other countries around the world in terms of their involvement in international Amnesty International type activities, you know, we we seem to kind of assume that we're concerned people in this country. And I wonder if anybody could give a little International perspective on that. You (00:55:31) know, the answer to that question is an amnesty is the amnesty section within Amnesty International the u.s. Section with an Amnesty International is the fifth largest. The largest is is the group engine the federal public of Germany one can speculate is the reasons for that. The other large groups are in France in Scandinavia. Holland is very large and by percentage of population incredible. The United Kingdom is very large but there are groups and in over 40, there are sections in over 40 countries and groups in the larger group larger number of countries. One of the reasons amnesty is smaller in the United States is because there are other groups that take up the concerns of Human Rights concerns of other that that one might find for example, the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee is working on its sector of concerns the lawyers committee for Soviet. Jewry also takes up a certain number of volunteers that do that kind of work and so as a result perhaps some of Members that wouldn't have no choice for haps in the Netherlands have lots of choices in the United States. (00:56:36) I believe that we have taken our last phone call and wrapped it up just about at the right time. It's two minutes before one o'clock Our Guest today on midday have been David weisbrot. He is a law professor at the University of Minnesota former National Vice chair of Amnesty International and running for another term. I understand and Sam Heinz is president of the Minnesota International Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee Hennepin County District Judge were brutally V is a member of the Minnesota Dakota's committee for Soviet jewelry all active in various aspects of Human Rights abuses around the world and one of only a number of non-governmental organizations that are active in this field. Thank you all for being here today. Thank you. (00:57:21) Thank you. (00:57:22) We will take a brief look at our weather situation around the state. We like to do that when we have weather is nice as we have today. We are expecting mostly sunny skies across the most of the region today with highs in the upper 60s to low 70s. Tonight it should be clear to partly cloudy except for the chance of a few isolated showers in the western portion of our region highs will range from the upper 30s to lower 50s.