This noon is either one of the most respected or most Miss trusted people in Scott County. The reason for this mixture of popularity and animosity is that in 1981. She began exposing something most of us most of us would much rather not admit exists. And that is the sexual abuse of children by their parents and their grandparents. My guest this afternoon is Scott County attorney Kathleen Morris after bringing to light the sexual abuse practices of the Cermak family Miss Morris last year began Prosecuting the James John Rudd family of Jordan on more than 100 counts of sexual abuse involving 20 children. She's had threats made on her life and she has also been praised as being a Relentless prosecutor and in effect a children's rights Advocate. Thanks for being here this afternoon Miss Morris. Thank you. I guess the first question that I have for you is out of all of the things that a county attorney in Minnesota might occupy his or her time with what has prompted you to focus on this.Problem of the sexual abuse of children. Well, I don't know if we can call it Focus. What happened is it was just happening. It came to our attention and you don't ignore it. So you prosecuted so we do but some some people in this whole discussion that's been going on now for at least two to three years in the media in special forms and seminars and all that have said that this is not and use yourself have been quoted as saying that this isn't a problem that just exists in Scott County that it exists around the country and if around the country then probably around Minnesota. There are 87 counties in Minnesota. You are the county attorney in just one why is it that we have heard so much about the prosecution of and the problems with sexual abuse of children in Scott County is it that it is being ignored by County attorneys and others. I don't know whether it's being ignored. I think what happened is it we realized it was happening and the community as a whole in Scott County decided.The children should be our priority. We keep saying that they're our most precious resource. So by gosh, let's protect them. They can't protect themselves. And so it's like the whole Community is decided that this is what we're going to do and it's not just the county attorney's office. It's not just the police. It's not just the County Commissioners or the Human Services. It's the public Jordan that they keep saying. Wow all this sexual abuse in Jordan It's Not Unusual. It's not in the water. It's not in the air. It happens everywhere, except they've made a commitment that they're going to protect children. So they help us they teach children about appropriate inappropriate touching and we learn about these things when you say they helped us. Are you talking about particular group social service agencies or have the citizens in these communities in Jordan in particular have they actually formed a group either an identifiable group or otherwise and come to you or others in the community and said we want to stop this. Oh, yeah. I think there are groups. I think the school systems there.Educating their kids specifically in Jordan. Now, there's a group that spends time making sure that kids are protected that it's a group of business Amendment and just ordinary citizens who want to make their Town their town at their proud of safe and it's not just Jordan are lots of areas across the state and across the United States. Now that are saying wait a minute. We got to get her head out of the sand and realize this is happening everywhere. The cermak's weren't unusual. They weren't bizarre yet. Everybody wanted to believe that this is happening everywhere. Would you argue with those who say that? You got the ball rolling? I don't think I got the ball rolling. I think that what happened is that with the police officers that I have that are incredibly sensitive and dedicated that they investigate they work hard Human Services the social workers that are in child protection. We all work together as a team and it's not me I didn't do it. It was all of us that made a decision and it wasn't a conscious decision. It was just that it wasThere we weren't going to allow it to continue to happen. I don't want to I don't want to put you on the spot and I'd in the sense that I don't want to encourage you or put you in the situation of having to criticize other County attorneys around the state, but but I'm wondering how I might know if I live in a county other than Scott County if if it is true that the sexual abuse of children is not an isolated thing surely. These cases must come to other County attorneys and other judges and other police officers attentions. How do I as a citizen without going in and demanding to know what cases have been brought or what two situations have been identified in the community? How do I assure myself that these cases will be taken care of so that my own kid might not be the subject of a reduce the chances that this might happen to him or her. Well, I think what happens to start with we've got to start training police officers and social workers and County attorneys and judges just like we have to educateThe community that it is every where to start looking for signs to if one child says Mary and Terry were there that by gosh the police should have permission to go talk to Mary Ann Terry and get strokes for that not be condemned if they find out that it's the school teacher or the judge or the businessman of the president of the rotary club or whatever that's doing it is that they've got to have the community support and I talked to lots and Law Enforcement Officers across the state spend a lot of time with that and I realized that they don't feel like they have the permission to spend the time in the energy that they need it gets real tiresome. When you tell a child and we educate children now that if you say something if you tell somebody somebody will believe you and they'll help you when the whole system when you get within the system doesn't really understand. It doesn't want to believe it. So they'd rather ignore it and believe that a child just isn't telling the truth or that it's not that big a deal and that's what the it is. It's going to take Community Support saying wait a minute. That's a priority.In our County to and we want it to be a priority with the police department with human services with the schools with the county attorney's offices and make that a priority. It is six and a half past 12:00 noon. And my guest is Scott County attorney Kathleen Morris. If you have a question for Miss Morris this afternoon, give us a call here in the Twin Cities. The number is two two seven six thousand that's 2276 thousand and because of membership week our watch line is tied up. So call us collect at area code six one two, two two seven six thousand if you're listening to us outside the Twin Cities metropolitan area again collected area code six, one two, two two seven six thousand also want to pass on this reminder or notice to rfm listeners. We will be going off to the Opera at one o'clock and we're going to take a break in this program at about 1250 at about 10 to 1 will be breaking away. So if you're listening in the Twin Cities and want to switch overTo hear the conclusion of the show. You cannot ksjn 1330. I have another quick question for you. It may not be an easy one to answer. But what does the average citizen do if he or she as a parent suspect or written as a non-parent somebody who is living next door down the street from a family or an individual whom he or she suspects is involved in the sexual abuse of children. What do you do? Well, whether it's sexual abuse or physical abuse or neglect one of the things that the Minnesota Legislature has done is made the protection of children like vulnerable adults who are mentally handicapped or physically handicapped. They've made some reporting laws and what they've done is they've asked ordinary citizens for example to call in and they're to call Human Services or their welfare department or their police departments. They can call in and they can be anonymous if they don't want to give their name they can if they give us their name, they can remain anonymous that's confidential and just report we're mandated toInvestigated what's even neater in Minnesota is because we know that the reporting of suspected abuse is so necessary if we're going to stop it and it's important to stop it because it's generational. It's passed on and children learn from their parents or their role models how to act so if they don't get some help and we don't stop it chances are they're going to abuse to so what we say is that if they report in good faith, that means they don't make it up. They aren't malicious about it that they're protected both civilly and criminally from any reprisal of any kind. So that's really neat. So what we're saying is gosh we need everybody's help. It's not enough to have mandated reporters which are like doctors and teachers and health care workers and people in the helping professions they have to report but what we're saying is we're going to also protect people who just report because they care what do you do if you're not sure but you suspect it. It's an awfully it's an awfully serious charge to even suggest it seems okay. I think that what Minnesota's saying is thatIf you suspect it, let's report it we can investigate it and if it's unfounded that's terrific, but it's better to find something unfounded that it is to let something go on and on and on a child can end up losing their childhood or they can die or and we forget that those kind of things happen with sexual abuse physical and neglect. So we're saying report if you just have a reasonable belief or you suspect that it's happening call in we can investigate it. Hopefully it'll be unfounded. Hopefully it's not happening. But at least we'll let people know that we care about kids. Okay, let's go to some calls right now. Let's take this first call. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question.Hello. Hello there. Yes. Good afternoon. Go ahead. We're listening for your question. Publicity we've had in the recent years about the Minnesota connection and prostitutes coming young prostitutes coming out of Minnesota. The you think it's more prevalent here than more prostitutes young prostitutes coming out of Minnesota than somewhere else. Number one and number two. The people have said that most of the young prostitutes come are abused children. And would you think there's a connection between the two of that but there's more of it in Minnesota than anywhere else. Okay, I think without a doubt there's a connection that lots of young children go to prostitution because the way they've learned to survive in this world is sexually whether it's a way to get attention whether it's the way to get money to get gifts whatever so I think they've been taught by adults that this is the way you survive but it's not more prevalent in Minnesota. I think what's really neat is Minnesota and also the state of Washington have been forerunners in the protection of children and in making sure that they're safe and taken care of so Minnesota doesn't have more they just plain ol or doing something about it. Alright, let's take another call. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question. Yes. I've got a couple friends that are police officers. And they have their under the opinion that and what may have started as a valid investigation has turned out to become a witch hunt. I will hang up and listen for the comment. Okay? I don't know what thing you're talking about. I hear that a lot that we're always on a Witch Hunt in Scott County. I think that if anybody knows what the laws are all about, you have to have probable cause before you can charge anybody a judge has to review it a police officer has to swear to it. You know, I can't even answer that. You know, what we've decided is that we're going to protect children that's unpopular for people who don't care about kids and who aren't real concerned about children's protection and it's always easier to blame it on somebody else and blame it on Morris or her police or whatever and that way they don't have to believe that it's going on and they're they're safer that way but you have even if you haven't done it on purpose you have set yourself apart at least from most other County attorneys. And how they operate with regard to sexual abuse in Minnesota. Either that or the media is skewing its reporting because and that may be too true to an extent but there just aren't these cases to the amount and extent again. I think that's because in Scott County the people who live there have made children a priority we're saying we don't want you to ignore it. I hear often that I go places in the police officer will say yeah, we got the County Attorney to charge on for kids. We know that they're 20 more out there, but we're busy or we know that that's just going to be a pain we can't do that in Scott County because we do know that the chances are if we don't get to kids that they're going to grow up and sexually abuse so many people we prosecute have been abused was talking to Paul Gerber the BCA the other day who's an expert in this area and he was asking and I agreed with him that we know that people who sexually abuse have I'd say a hundred percent of them have either been physically abused neglected or sexually abused themselves as children, so, Got to stop this when their children are this problem is going to just keep going to to 76 thousand is the number to call in the Twin Cities and let's go to another caller right now. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Hi first wrong car from neapolis. And I like to say that I very strongly support with his Morris is doing there are some things that I I've been hearing in conversations other people that I think might be good for her to address just to let people know what's happening. What I'm thinking in particular is the Sherman Act cases and what's the the sensationalism that is involved with the the trial aspect of these things and particular the fact that first day we had the husband's that after everything died down from their travels on the wives were charged. And then after we thought that was all then also in the grandparents of charge people were saying well gee whiz. She's a I understand some of the wall processes, but I mean a lot of people thinking wild real is the county attorney's using this case to just lose her home if you know what I mean, right and I just would like you to just take a Second to address the problem with dealing with the media. I know he got into a little bit there with the last question and some of the reasons May why the case was handled that way? Okay, I can tell you specifically it would be nice to charge everybody at the same time but children who've been sexually abused only tell you as much as they think you can handle and they get real scared and they're only going to tell you as you go what they feel safe telling you. So once we told for example in the Cermak case that we take care of them and we make sure that they weren't hurt again that they didn't do anything naughty they didn't do anything wrong when they saw that that was happening that we really were following through and we rely were taking care of Daddy's then all of a sudden they had the guts and one little boy told his foster mama. How come you kiss me on my cheek and my mama kisses me on my peepee. That's the way we got into that and then two months later they trusted us because we did something with Mama's and all of a sudden another child said well, how come grandpa and grandma are in jail, they're the leaders of the game. And that was just because it takes an incredible trust faster Factor when you've been abused by the people you love you trust and you don't understand why they heard them hurt you it you don't trust adults really easily. So it takes a long long time you learn in every case. Not just the cermak's that that's what happens. It takes kids trusting you to tell you sure it would have been much easier if we'd known everything. The first month kids are only going to tell you when they're ready to tell you because it seems as though in effect. These kids are shifting their whole trust Focus because despite what's going on. They do trust or did trust to some degree the people who are abusing them. Oh absolutely kids believe that they there's something wrong with them that they did something naughty or people who loved him wouldn't hurt him. And so they feel like adults have the right to do that. I think that's the one thing lots of people criticize the media all the time. They were incredibly good to our kids in the Cermak case. They were real careful not to use their names. They were real careful not Their pictures they didn't make it even though I understand that they had to do their job. They were real careful when the kids came up the front door of the courthouse. The media was there they all talk to him. We kept telling him they were friends. They were always nice to him. And the one thing that people don't realize is the so many of the kids involved in the Cermak case were real glad what they knew. They were doing was doing something that if they told the truth somebody would help them and by telling the truth, they'd help other kids to know that somebody will listen to you somebody will care and somebody will stop it. So while sometimes you know, I've people spend a lot of time yelling about the media God they were good to us and I think that it was real important that and important for the Cermak kids that they understood that everybody was behind him. And that's what we kept telling them that the press the people that were there believe them and they wanted to tell other kids that they could tell Let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Hello. I'm from Minneapolis attorney general spin us forward to any general Spanish what it stated that the best way to fight crime was to fight child abuse and I'm wondering if children of sexual and physical abuse are found to commit more other crimes other than practice tution and I have one other question are the premises of these people who are guilty of child sexual abuse have they found to have been found to have pornographic materials on the premises and where these nonviolent or violent or only child pornography or what and I'll hang up and listen. Let's see. The first one was whether the way to fight crime I think was to fight child abuse. I think that's absolutely true. I think we see with lots of people who burglarize who write worthless checks who steal that what they've learned from adults is that you don't have to follow the rules and that you aren't accountable and you aren't responsible for your actions and they see that because we tell kids that nobody's supposed to hurt anybody else knows about he supposed to steal from anybody else then if you see that adults who've taken care of you and your love all your life hurt, you do the same kind of things. Then you grow up not to have much fear self-esteem. You don't think much of yourself. You don't have much control over what you do because you're really impulsive and you commit crimes. I think we've seen that and I think that people working within the corrections field will tell you about 80% of all the people have been physically who commit other crimes have been sexually or physically abused as children, you know, I think that it's hard to generalize on pornographic material. Sometimes you'll get involved with people who sexually use kids who take pictures who have pictures of child porn who have other kinds and it also depends we have different kinds of people who sexually abuse children that used to be believed that most of them weren't Mean about it, you know, if you can say that sexually abusing kids isn't mean but they'd sometimes threatened but it gets they usually weren't painful in any more than cutting them or burning them or this kind of thing. We're finding that those kind of things are happening more and more find more and more people who terrorized children not just by saying they used to abuse children a whole lot and they still do by saying they're wonderful and they're beautiful and this is a special relationship and we don't want to tell anybody because it's a secret you see lots of people who also say there isn't a rock big enough for you to crawl under if I go to jail, or I'll kill your mama and daddy in the night. You get a lot of those two. It's both kinds it's whatever works with the child you're dealing with. Okay. It's 20 minutes now past 12:00 noon. And our guest this afternoon is Kathleen Morris, who is the Scott County attorney. We have listeners on the line waiting to ask questions. Let's go to the next caller. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Yes. Good afternoon. I'd like to ask Miss Morris. What? The youngest age of a child that she has worked with who has been declared competent to testify. Well the youngest child that's been declared competent that I've worked with to testify and just turned 4, we work with younger kids and I remember during the Cermak trial one of the judges was real enlightened. He knew a lot about sexual abuse in one of our children was three years old. He said if that would have been the only child and that was the only one that could tell about what happened in that child had a right to tell and had a right to say because if we don't start doing that then we're saying that children who are two and a half or two and aren't real verbal won't be able to talk. So that's the youngest I've had that has gone to trial of had younger kids than that, but they haven't gone to trial if I can say one thing Rich before we keep going. We keep talking about sexual abuse and sexual molestation. I'd like to say one thing one of the things I hear all the time is you can't even hug or kiss a kid in Scott County or Morris is going to get you we're not talking about hugging and kissing. And kids, you know, we've got to start being real honest about what sexual abuse is and what we're talking about. We're talking about mamas and daddies and men and women and teachers and judges and everybody who decide that they want to control kids and it's real fine to give your daughter your four-year-old daughter a bath but when you're doing it don't stick your finger in her vagina, it's fine to kiss your daughter or your daughter's best friend. Goodbye. Don't stick your tongue in her mouth while you're doing it and mothers can change two-year-old ipers all the time, but don't suck on the baby's penis while you did it that's sexual abuse, you know, we're talking about people who use their hands their tongues. Their mouths Ice Cube's bowling pins candles you name it and they stick things in and around children. So we're talking about sexual abuse. We weren't talking about hugging and kissing I think people lose sight of that and I think they do that because it makes them feel better if they can think that it's not really something that psychologically damages and physically damages kids. Do you really find that the people that you have prosecuted deeply believe that or do you sense? After a while at least there is some admission on their part that yes, what they were doing was wrong. No, I think it really depends on which kind there are different types of sexual abusers, whether they're male or whether they're female whether they abused their own children with a abuse children outside the home whether they abused children before they hit puberty or whether they abused children after they hit puberty Dixie Lee at the sexual aggressors program and st. Peter's been in a lot of time trying to figure out so it's hard to do a norm but I think that what's happens with kids who are sexually abused and they grow up to sexually abuse is the people have done it to them and they don't all right. It's like physical abuse. We had a man who took his three-year-old son who had had a bowel movement in his pants and he wiped it all over his face to showing why in the feces dried on his face and then he took a fiberglass fishing rod and whip the kid until he bled and we went out and the police officer George Lil who was the one that investigated all my stuff went out and talked to this guy and the guy said well, I didn't do anything wrong. I have a right to do that. My dad did it. Me and I turned out. All right, and I think that's what happens. You get low self-esteem when you're abused you you're having real trouble in your lives in lots of areas. And the way you feel power the Fate way you feel control is to control somebody and it's easier to control a four-year-old than it is to control your boss at work or the society that comes down on you. Okay, let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Go ahead first. I'd like to say I'm from Scott County and I voted for Kathleen on this last election, and I would definitely vote for her again. Thank you. I really think she has done a wonderful job. Like I said wasn't only her was everybody but I was just kind of curious know a lot of these people have been out on bail. Yes. They these people are going to go and do it again while they're on on bail why can't talk about specific cases, but one of the things that I'm real concerned about and one of the things that we've got to educate judges and the rest of the Immunity is that people don't stop just because somebody says that it's wrong. They don't stop doing it and what they don't realize is that kids have been sexually abused when they don't understand the bail system. It's hard to explain to somebody 10 years old how you can get out of jail. When if you tell the truth, you know, somebody's going to help you and that it's real hard when they have to walk out into their neighborhood and see people driving up and down the street that they've told about and that's scary for kids. I understand Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and I understand the presumption of innocence, but I also understand that we have to protect kids and I don't think that we're doing that within our system with the Bales that are set in lots of cases when you talk about educating judges, how do you do that? I assume that what you're saying is that the judges from your point of view at least knees need to learn something about the fear that a kid can feel and the assurance that that kid needs to have that that person won't be home in 10 days or in well, whatever time how do you At that across. Well, I think that what you do is you do it the same way you do the community and judges are human beings just like everybody else. They aren't any different just because they put robes on and they come to the bench with their same Prejudice. It's like the judge in Dakota County that was just recently appointed judge to e that specifically told the Minneapolis Tribune that you just basically can't believe kids. You know, we've got to teach people that kids don't make up things about sexual abuse that when you listen to a kid a trained investigator trained social worker can talk to that kid and realize that lots of times they'll tell you things that they couldn't know unless it happened to them. They only learn from their own experience. And so they tell you, you know, people are always saying well gosh Kathleen the more we educate people though in the more we educate kids in the public then maybe kids can learn to make this up and that's going to happen. There's no doubt about it. You know that sometime down the line, but right now it's still not okay to be sexually abused. It's still not okay to talk about it and we're still making victims children out there feel like They did something wrong eventually and I think people don't give investigators both social workers and cops enough credit. They know when a burglar is telling the truth or not telling the truth, you know, when a kid is telling the truth or not telling the truth. I don't know why we believe that we can believe a kid when they steal and they say they didn't and we know that they lying to us and we know it it's the same thing with sexual abuse or physical abuse, it takes trained investigators, but with judges one of the ways is just plain old telling them that they've got to get their heads out of the sand just like the rest of the community does that they've got to accept that it's happening and what's really important is they're responsible in the system for making sure that it doesn't happen again whether that's treatment whether that's punishment whether it's both now or a combination, let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Good afternoon, Miss Morris. Yes. It makes me thankful. First off for good parents people in the situation. I'm a bachelor myself right now. I'm not married. I read your article in the Twin Cities. Went on you Twin Cities Ritter and I was came to the conclusion that we take the system for granted and specifically the people like you who make it work awful. No calmly and yesterday I heard about the California case. Yes and BC I couldn't believe it. So this thing is widespread Countrywide. Yes. It is happening everywhere. We had the whole Spectrum. We had the two or three grandmothers and a couple of 30 year olds and a couple of in-law husband's involved. And when I heard that in order to keep the children in line, they killed animals in front of these right that happens all the time in the thing that we forget. They also kill kids to keep him in line. Did you just hear about the Utah man who sexually molested five boys. He was just convicted this week and what he knew is that kids talked and the more we educate kids the more they're going to not keep the secret and he murdered five of them was just convicted for the murder of five young boys range. Age from 6 to 11. I think it was because he decided that gosh kids are going to talk. They aren't going to keep the secret because we're telling kids that nobody has a right to touch them and they should yell and say no 29 minutes now past 12:00 noon and my guest this afternoon is Scott County attorney Kathleen Morris. We have a couple of phone lines open if you tried earlier and got a busy signal the number in the Twin Cities to call to ask a question is two two seven six thousand that's two two seven six thousand and if you're listening around the state outside of Minnesota are rather outside of the Twin Cities call us collect at area code six, one two, two two seven six thousand you can call us outside of Minnesota to for that matter at area code six. One two, two two seven six thousand call us collect. Our wats line is tied up with other business today. Let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Yes. I just wanted to commend Miss Morris for what she's doing. Thanks. And I think education is really good. If as a victim of child molestation, I I think if they did had this when I was a child, it might not have gone on into the third generation right maybe that if somebody had given you permission to tell you that you didn't do anything wrong. You didn't do anything bad in adults are responsible maybe and that's what we're trying to do with kids. Now is Say by gosh, let him tell somebody and what's important is if we educate him to tell somebody the system has to be ready to listen, we have to have prosecutors who believe and judges who believe and law enforcement people who believe in social workers who just don't say well it's not as bad as the last one. So let's forget it. All right. Let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Hi. Okay, I think it's wonderful what you're doing. But I feel like I have to protect parents here too. It seems like you know all this publicity and everything and now it seems like when you walk down the street and your child is like really really really having a temper tantrum and you know, you trying to say Johnny stop it, you know, and then it's really hard. You know when people look at like look at you, like what's your reaction going to be? Are you going to beat this child or what and I don't know a lot of people feel like you can't spank children anymore and it's wrong to do that. But my theory on that is like you shouldn't spank if you don't know how to and as far as I don't know. I don't know. I just really hurt because it's really sad to see that a lot of children are going through this but I must say that all children are going through this and all children aren't and I think what's really neat is there lots of parents who do really neat things with their kids and they're concerned about them. I think with anything when we first start to educate the public whether it was drug abuse 15 years ago, we believe that everybody that took a drink then must be an alcoholic when you looked at them. I think the pendulum goes one way and everybody gets scared to hug and kiss and whatever and like you do when you have a child who's having a temper tantrum, you don't know whether you can control it without people thinking Something's going on. I think that what happens is we've got to teach parents teach the community that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to discipline to and it's time one of the things that we find all the time is that we haven't been listening to kids for a number of years because we want to control them and we're afraid to give them any control but I don't think anybody's saying all parents are bad and I think for a while everybody's going to feel real unusual about disciplining or whatever afraid that somebody's going to report them, you know seems like that's more important. Like I said before to have some unsubstantiated claims, you know found than to allow a child to continue to be hurt because nobody wants to get involved and nobody wants to say anything. Let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air first. Let me say I have the highest degree of integration for Miss Morrison work. She's doing in Scott County and the people that are working with her second of all, I'm very concerned is a earlier question near asked what's happening outside Scott County. I'm very concerned that I hear are here. I live in st. Paul. With hundreds of thousands more people in this County than Scott County has and I know our reporters here in st. Paul and Minneapolis are probably just as diligent as they are down in Scott County. We're not hearing about anything like that up here and we know it exists. What are the county attorney's doing different here and how come we're not hearing anything here and also one final thing. Are you writing a book or can you write a book or doing anything to educate attorneys nationally about the situation county attorney's prosecuted. So I keep telling people that if you had to ask one group of people who were there who was their least liked person if you ask county attorney's I think the name would be Kathleen Moore us before they can do anything else. No, I'm not writing and I have trouble just surviving day-to-day, you know in the work we're doing or trying to do I think that what happens is that it's been real scary for county attorney's across the state and across the United States to prosecute child abuse. They have historically been cases that you lose. You never know. What a child's going. Duke you can't in the Cermak case they kept telling me I brainwashed and turn the children into zombies if you know kids you can't do that with kids kids are going to tell you that what the way it is and if they want to talk they'll talk and if they don't want to talk they don't talk and it's been real hard for county attorney's and police and social workers to spend the time that it takes to prepare a child for trial to make him comfortable to let them talk one of the things that I've been real lucky about and I tell people it's the community that makes a lot of difference when we first started we got nothing but Flack about Prosecuting the cermak's and we'd gone too far when we prosecuted grandma and grandpa that changed as we begin to educate people and we in Scott County work as a team. My police officers are incredible. They're hard-working they'll do anything. They work all the time. So are the social workers who deal with us in the protection of children. And as a team, we work real. Well, I think what happens is that with police and with County attorneys. They often think that my gosh the County Attorney feels that the only way I'm going to get reelected as if I win cases these are losing Hey, sis, what are the police going to say? If I lose it, you know, we don't have that problem. We know that our chances of losing our great but we also know the protection of children so important that it's worth it and it's a team effort all the way to the end when the verdict comes in whatever it is. And when we're placing kids or whatever we're doing with kids. It's all of us together. It's not once the police investigate I charge it's my problem, you know, and it's not my their problem when they're investigating. It's all of us and I think that has to change in Minnesota. I think County attorneys have to be told that so hot if you lose cases you're trying and that's because we still got to educate juries. We've got to educate people who sit on juries. We've got to educate judges but by gosh, you don't get anywhere without trying does how you prepare a kid to testify determined to some degree whether or not that child will want it comes down to the actually taking of the stand whether that kid is going to say what they told you in private. Oh, absolutely because when you get in front, Out of daddy or grandpa or the man down the street who hurt you those that child has to believe that the police officer who's going to be sitting there isn't going to let anything happen to him that I'm not going to let anything happen to him and regardless of what happens I believe in and I'm going to protect him they have to trust they've been hurt by adults. They've trusted all their lives to build up a trust relationship with a child a have enough guts to stand up there and say daddy you hurt me and you can't hurt me anymore. If I tell the truth that takes a real trust level and it takes a lot of time in a lot of energy County a county attorney who doesn't choose to take the time perhaps to invest in that kind of trust relationship may lose cases. Absolutely. It's going to happen and even even me who takes the time and people like me who take the time to build a trust relationship that day the child just may not want to talk. It's that simple. I don't want to talk about it today, you know, but that's why it takes a lot of time and a lot of energy and we got to have the community tell County. He's offices and police departments that it's worth the time and the energy. Let's take another call. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question. I wonder if like the domestic violence problem part of the problem was incest might not be that the members of the legal community in the police Community are also part of an incest written Community there has in my rural County there has been a lack of interest in bringing child abuse cases to prosecution and I wish that Miss Morris would address that. I wish also that you would call to attention of listeners the existence of pro incest and pro pedophile lobbyist groups such as the Renee guy on society and the national man-boy love Association there lots of societies like that that are real scary that believe for example that any child over the age of four should be able to consent with sex with an adult because that deduct can teach them about the beauty of Sex and the beauty of love. It's real scary when in our society, we don't have people on the other side and there don't seem to be a lot of uh saying wait a minute, you know adults are making decisions for kids. So don't tell me a four-year-old can tell you that he wants that kind of thing because we don't let him drive till they're 16. We don't let them vote till they're 18, you know, we make some decisions for kids that way but there are lots of those societies around the other thing. I forgot the question Rich. Do you remember what that was? Is she still on the line? Oh my because I didn't write it down it had to do with it had to do with police and other groups and that's whether or not there were Pro incest groups either formal or informal. Well when this I think that what she was getting at was that sometimes police don't investigate because they're involved. Well, I think that happens but I don't believe that they're involved any more than any others. I know that a police officer has been arrested in one County and one of the police officers was feeling so bad and what he said was well we getting from the same human race we get everybody else and that's right. They're police officers who are abused. That's the one thing that we've got to really educate people to you want to believe that it's low income low intelligence people who abuse. It's never the banker or the daycare worker or the school teacher or the judge or the county attorney or whoever it is. Well, that's just not a fact, you know people from all walks of life. All socio-economic income levels sexually abused kids because they choose to do it. It doesn't make any difference and we've got to get out of the our mind and this is why child abuse cases are lost so often is because people who sit on the jury the community wants to believe you can pick an incest or a person who abuses kids a child abuser out of a crowd you can't they aren't the people with the deep-set eyes and the bushy eyebrows and this pasty complexion that sort of blob Lon, you know, they look just like you and I look and that's scary for people to say my gosh somebody who abuses kids could be my next door neighbor told somebody the other day that somebody sexually abuses kids could be their wife who they're sleeping with and that's how You know, what do we know about sexual abuse? You can't pick it out. Okay, let's go to another caller. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question afternoon. I'm calling from st. Paul. I appreciate your work both and prosecution and education. I commend you for have a question about a different group in our society who is vulnerable to this kind of thing. I'm actually a physician and take care of primarily adults and have witnessed a number of or been told about by patients a number of episodes episodes of physical abuse of an elderly people. I was wondering if you knew anything about sexual abuse of elderly people by younger people. Yeah. I think it happens a whole lot in any with the elderly people and with the physically and mentally handicapped. That's an area that by gosh. We can't ignore we have a vulnerable adult act in Minnesota that's mandated reporting just like in the child protection that you have to report that. I know that when we look at how scary it is for children to talk about physical and sexual abuse because it's done by somebody they love One of the things we know a whole lot to is the elderly people as they get older and they become dependent on daughters and sons and other people in society those people abuse elderly just like they abused children and the elderly people don't want to talk either. How do you walk in and say this is what my son's been doing to me for the last five years, you know, I think it becomes even harder for them to do it. That's why it's real important that we spend a lot of time at senior citizens home. We spend lots of time educating the elderly the same way. We do kids. Please tell somebody if you tell somebody would do something and you aren't doing anything wrong, you know, you aren't responsible when younger people hurt you let's take another call. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question. She needs to be commended for what she is doing when I was in training I talk to my mother about sex and that we should have sex education and she was As far as I'd so this has been a long time coming and may God continue to help her. Thank you. Again that in this work. There's no questions that I have but I just want to tell you thank you very much. Thanks for calling. It is 18 minutes now before one o'clock and I think we have to phone lines open if you tried a bit ago and got a busy signal two two seven six thousand is the number to call in the Twin Cities. If you're listening outside, the Twin Cities metropolitan area call us toll-free collect rather area codes 6122276 thousand call us collect. If you're listening outside the Twin Cities, let's go to another caller. Good afternoon. You're on the air good afternoon. First of all as a paralegal. I want to commend Miss Moore's and to her entire staff as well as the community of Scott County for what they have done. My question is There are some of these people do they do they allow them to plea bargain down which I am totally opposed to and do they get lighter sentences. I know that she'd prosecuted to the fullest extent she can but how many of these people have been able to prosecute down? My son was a victim and from outside the family and my anger just is incredible. So my praise to her and I'll hang up and listen for you her comment. Okay, I should tell you lots of cases are plea bargained for lots of reasons. For example, Beverly Angeline Cermak went to st. Peter the sexual aggressors program was his long-term inpatient program instead of to prison like the other sir Max did one of the reasons was they were able to admit what they did that. They wanted to change it and on top of that it became the point where back in 1981 and 82 People were saying that it was a Witch Hunt. I was bizarre. It wasn't true. Nobody wanted to believe it and we made a decision which was probably one of the hardest that we've ever made the police and I and Prosecuting this to offer a deal to Beverly and you Lane so they testify and help the kids. It didn't work. We thought that well, you know, we thought that maybe Stanley and Alice would then plead, you know, once an adult they didn't but without a doubt we needed Beverly Angeline's testimony saying, you know that this isn't the kids aren't making this up. This isn't bizarre plea bargaining happens. One of the things that we also have problems with a Minnesota the sentencing guidelines saying sentencing guidelines say, for example, if you have vaginal sex with a six-year-old under the sentencing guidelines, it's 43 months with a third off for good time under the law. It says 20 years. That's not what's happening in often. You're going to find out that and in Scott County. We if you want to call it a plea bargain make lots of deals that we'd rather have you on 10 or 15 years probation. Chicken so we've got some control over you that your first condition of probation is some punishment and that's what it is responsibility and accountability. You do one year and the Scott County Jail as a condition of your probation besides treatment for you. You have to pay for treatment for the victim you have to pay for your room and board because by gosh, you know, the society shouldn't have to pay you know for what you've done and we've decided that that's better than letting you do 22 months in a prison system only being on parole for 13 months after that and then after 43 months your scot-free wandering through the community to possibly abuse again, do you have much faith in treatment? Okay. No II don't have a lot of faith in treatment. I have a lot of faith in therapist and treatment Personnel who now say they used to say well, of course we can treat it we can cure it that's just crap and I think most reputable therapist will tell you they can't cure people just like you can't cure alcoholism. What you can do is you can teach people to control it. Teach people that you don't get around kids that you don't have anything to do with kids and that there are specific consequences for your acts if you do and I think that's what lots of places like Alpha House for example here in the Twin Cities, which is an inpatient program. They also and just like Dixie Lee at the sexual aggressors program with their programs say first is accountability and responsibility by gosh. You heard a kid and you're responsible. So you do a year in jail, then we'll start intensive therapy about how we teach you not to do it again. Not that we cure you and I really and I think most reputable therapists don't buy claims from people that they cure, you know people who sexually abuse kids. Okay, let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Hello. I'm I'm a lawyer in Duluth. I formerly worked as a criminal prosecutor and as a public defender. And the question I have released two charges of sexual abuse. Which arise during a pending divorce suit where the parties are battling for custody? I currently have a case involving such a charge the child being three years old and I would like to know how Miss Morris however office handle eat handle these charges and what tools they use to determine the veracity or falsity of the charges. I like to hang up and I think that that happens often. I think that it wither its physical abuse or sexual abuse or they say in a disillusion that one part he's running around with somebody else anything, you know, and I think that that probably happens it's real clear. If you've got trained investigators trained social workers and trained county attorney's to talk with a child and whether it's something mother has rehearsed her Daddy has rehearsed over and over and over again and say tell them this tell them this tell them this when you spend with a child, the one thing you learn is children can't over and over again give you the same thing and in a criminal process, they've got to I mean they talked Investigators then they talked to another investigator then they talk to me and then they talk to a social worker and then they're back with me again. They can't consistently give you the same scenario. Now. That doesn't mean that the centenario isn't going to be enlarged it is as you talk to them and they trust you more and more and more but you've got it's just goes back to what you got to do is you got to have investigators who know what they're doing. We have the 12 minutes before one o'clock and time for one quick question more before we bid farewell to our FM listeners. So let's take that call right now. Go ahead. You're on the air. I don't have a question. I would like to thank but that very much and I would like to ask her to it the tool it consists of parents believe their child because as you say, they can't make it up in our case. It was a ten year old boy and we were assured it was happening because we questioned him. He didn't confront him. But all the other facts were true. Therefore this was we went to the clergyman's boss. Nothing was done. The tower was commercially distributed begin with and this man was picking an emotionally disturbed children. I think parents have to believe because as you see they can't make up. These are Usual Suspects. That's right. And I think that not just parents but one of the things that we find real difficult is the community will back somebody who looks like they may be a child abuse and they'll back the police and the prosecutor for that but then all of a sudden when you arrest the priest or you arrest the judge, you know, people all out of the woodwork come and say oh no, he's a reputable person and by gosh, he's always done a good job. That doesn't mean because he on the outside has or she and I got to keep saying that people like to believe that only men sexually abused because they have penises. It doesn't take a penis to sexually abuse a kid I deal with women after women and in now in fact in our charging it's about 50% women are charged as much as men are in the sexual abuse of kids. They can use fingers and ice cubes and bowling pins and anything else you want to use. They don't have to have a penis. I think that what happens is that the community still a lot of communities don't want to believe that somebody they respect or they work with will do it. They want to believe that somebody who doesn't have a steady job would do that and we've got to educate the public that judges and lawyers do it just like people who work in Blue Collar jobs. It is 10 minutes now before one o'clock and we're going to part company with rfm listeners, but those of you in the Twin Cities who want to continue listening to this program can do so if you're not already tuned ksjn am 1330 you can do so right now. Okay, let's take another call right now. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Hi. Hi what I know I'm hearing a lot about sexual abuse. But I want to know about emotional of yours. I see a lot of people in and out of mental health units that have had a lot of emotional abuse to be prosecuted Mets. And how do we detect it? And I also would like to ask and cases like the Cermak case where the kids obviously were taken away for a while. Do these kids that are spread up to deliver try to keep them together and do they ever see each other again? I'm going to hang up so I can listen in any kind of case when you've got children that are emotionally abused. It's real hard to prove you. Have you often see lots of other things though if they're emotionally abused there's probably some physical abuse involved or they aren't fed. Well or their neglected, you know, they're just plain old not kept well and this is where education within the school system is incredibly important because teachers can pick up on this they can see a child who is delayed just because there's No, love there's no attention. There's no caring at home. And this is where we use teachers incredibly to report and to help us, you know, make this kind of case so we can protect kids that way as far as kids who are sexually abused over long periods of time or just on cases where a termination of parental rights is decided to be in the best interest of that child. That's where they get new parents where they're adopted and they're placed it often depends on and we rely a whole lot on therapist. There are some people in this city Susan to freeze Susan Phillips Jonas Michael Che and Associates Leslie, Pharisee, lots of them that deal with just children who have been sexually and physically abused to help us tell us what's best for those kids whether it's best for them to testify whether it's best for them to stay together, whether it's best for them to be placed separately, but make sure that if they ever were if the therapist then decide they should get together that we know where they are. So then they can start, you know, all those kind of things. I really rely on professionals who get to know the kids real well by seeing them one or two times a week. Bless all of us in putting again. Whether it's a social worker the police officer the therapist I can't I can't say enough. It's not one person. It's all of us who care who work together. We had heard some time ago that the Scott County Social Services was running out of places to put kids or to even a short-term stay kind of things. Is that still the case. It's still the case. We just remove some more kids this week in a matter and it gets really hard because sexually abused kids why you want to hold them you want to care for and by gosh, all they've been done is held by adults who've heard them and they have a lot of emotional problems the psychological damages in most cases more severe than the physical damage and to find foster parents who can deal with that one day where the child is very very happy the next day, they're destroying everything and you know writing in blood all over the walls after they pick their nose to hurt themselves that much because they're also often self-destructive. I feel like they're bad. They did something wrong. It takes special people when you when you all of a sudden come up with 35 or 40 kids to try to place in homes. It's hard to find those kind of homes. We found homes all over you know, you have to go outside of Scott County, but that's one thing if I could tell listeners if they're interested in caring about kids not just sexually abused kids, but physically abused emotionally kids. This parents need some time out to need to learn how to parent the damage lie, maybe they will learn how to parent but they need to have safe places for kids. They should call their Human Services or their welfare department wherever they are and apply there's a licensing procedure and boy, they need people who care you're not going to make Rich get rich. I always laugh at people who say most foster parents take kids because they're going to get rich you don't make a lot of money, you know, that's not what it's all about. But if you've got room in your home and get room in your heart to care about a kid, then you need to apply. All right, let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Yes. I've been listening to your program and it's interesting. The one thing you haven't touched on is The ultimate child abuse and that's abortion and every child that's abused in this way dies. Okay. Thanks for calling in with your opinion. Let's take another call could afternoon you're on the air? Go ahead. Oh, yep, you're on the air. I was wondering if how if a child was caught in that situation being abused how the child could get out of it or tell someone. Okay. What anybody should do is tell someone else they trust for example a teacher at school or if they know a neighbor that they trust very much. You should go and tell that person if there's a counselor at school you can go do that or at any time you can make a phone call at four four five. One for 11 which is the Scott County Sheriff's department and they'll get you in touch with me or with somebody else and somebody in your county that can help you if you don't know anywhere else to go sure that number was for 451411. Okay, very good. Okay, thanks. Let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Thank you. I actually called earlier and I hope I apologize if I missed your the the point of your answer, but we talked about the abuse of elderly people and I didn't hear you say whether you would come across sexual abuse as opposed to other kinds of abuse of elderly people. Yeah, and I said I have and I think that that's harder to report just like it is for children because it's hard to admit that their people younger than you people you also care about often. It's a family member or it's often in a nursing home situation. For example where people who are caretakers hurt who are younger? Yeah, it happens and it's an area that we have to start really educating the public on to Let's take another call. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question. Thank you. Good afternoon. Miss Morris first, I guess I'd like to say that I don't have an AM radio. And so therefore can I possibly stay on the line to hear her answer to shrieking shrieking? Thank you Miss Morris. I I'm a Hennepin County attorney and I've got two questions. The first is a response to the section of this program where we were you're discussing the veracity of children's testimony and you made a statement that I think what you said was perhaps we have to allow some unsubstantiated charges and I was sort of disturbed by that and I wasn't exactly sure what you meant, but I was I hope no one took that to mean and I hope you didn't mean that maybe some innocent people. Should have to go to jail. Why do we let her respond to that first? You stay on the line. We've got just two minutes left here. So we'd like to get to I think you misunderstood. We said that it's more important and why we have the mandated reporting laws is that people call in if they call in because they have reason to believe it's better that when we go out and we find out it's unsubstantiated that people call in even though we find after we investigate that there isn't anything needed then if they don't call in at all and don't help so that's what we were talking about unsubstantiated obviously lots of times people call in and the situation is such that there isn't anything that was really happening that appear to be happening but we're saying by gosh call, you know report. Okay, go ahead with the rest of your question who want me to handle the case against the county that wants them to go to go to therapy with their children who have been Um molested or have reported either more station or sexual abuse and I can't you know, I don't have any trouble defending people charged driving while intoxicated and I've been in four years, but I have no way of dealing with these people other than telling them I think it shot to do it and no I won't help you. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to interrupt here. We've got just 30 seconds left and I want them is Morris to be able to respond briefly to that. I think that probably lots of people have to make in as a Hennepin County of you know it up an attorney or any lawyer anywhere that you defend cases. You have to make some ethical considerations on what you can do and it seems like if somebody asks you and your you believe that that's what's happening get them into treatment and that's what we need to do. All right, Kathleen Morris got County attorney. Thanks very much for being here this afternoon. It was a good program. I'm glad we could have you on also thanks to Conrad Lindbergh who was Board operator engineer this afternoon and also Dorothy Hanford for taking the phone calls want to mention to listeners that on ksjn am in the Twin Cities starting on April 1st, we will be broadcasting a series of programs entitled your children our children and one of the topics of one of those programs will deal with the sexual abuse of children, but they will look at a number of problems that children experience in our society that program beginning at on April 1st at 6 p.m. That's a Sunday evening and titled your children our children. Look at the Twin Cities forecast a nice spring day outside 41 degrees right now in the Twin Cities. The forecast is for a high today from 42 to 47. The winds will be southeasterly this afternoon at 5 to 10 miles an hour for tonight. Our lows will be from 25 to 30 winds out of the southeast and tomorrow another nice day a high in the low to mid 40s weekend is made possible by economics Laboratories Incorporated. Services for worldwide cleaning. It's one o'clock. Its membership week on ksjn. Good afternoon. This is Rick Lewis with Kathy to mall. It is membership week but the last day of membership. Most obscure record you can chances are appalled move when he has it. Mohini has the honor of reputedly the largest collection of 45's in the world. So when you're dealing with a man with the most, it's pretty obvious what your first question will be. How many 45s do I have I have approximately one and a half million 45s a collection. It's obviously worth a lot of money. Well, if you were to take each one and put it on the open market and have a find a buyer for it. I'm sure that it would be in the area of 30 million dollars. How much did you spend for these records and certainly not 30 million. Well, it's hard to gauge exactly what I spent because it's been a twenty twenty five year process and I've devoted practically my entire life to accumulating The Collection how far back does your collection go in terms of years to the beginning of 45's but actually for much farther than that because I have also a quarter of a million albums and the album's go back to the 20s and 30s. Do you know who put out the first 45 and what it was it's an Eddy Arnold record RCA 47 - 001 what that we really was released probably in December of nineteen. Forty-seven. I'm sending you a big bouquet of roses one for every time you broke my heart and there's the door of love between us closes why the switch from seventy-eights two 45s better quality of signed. I'm sure they were cheaper to produce easier to distribute. They weren't breakable like the 78s are extremely breakable. Do you have every 45 that's been put out? No, I have every record that's ever been a hit and I probably have between 50 and 75 percent of the mrs. I have a substantial number of the ones that have been issued but there's a lot of stuff, you know, Geographic records, you know, every town had its own local be and and they recorded in the garage and went to the studio and press the thighs and copies those kind of records of the probably the rarest. I'm dating myself Paul. I can remember when the 45s first came out replacing the 78s and I guess one of the earliest that I can remember Was Won by less Baxter called poor people of Paris. Yes, I have that right here. What is your favorite among your collection Paul my favorite. Well, I like the love songs and in particular. I've I like the five keys. I think that Rudy West has the sweetest voice in pop music and one of my favorites by him is out of sight out of mind 1956 out of sight out of my so the star you forgot and also The Five Satins is another favorite group In the Still of the Night obviously is a classic by them.