(00:00:00) There's a good chance that you have viewed read or heard some news service, which has been advised on how to run its operation by Frank maggot for 27 years. Frank maggot has operated a Communications consulting firm based in Iowa City. He has sold his services to hundreds of commercial radio and television Enterprises and his company also advises newspapers and magazines. Frank maggot is the most prominent of a group of Consultants who helped shape what we are offered by the commercial news media Magid spoke recently in st. Paul at a meeting of the Society of professional journalists. One of maggots clients is the Hubbard Broadcasting Company and one of Frank magan's more enthusiastic supporters is Stanley Hubbard who heads the Twin Cities based company Stanley Hubbard introduced Frank maggot with a bit of History. (00:00:48) I'm going to first kind of blow my own horn because I'm very proud of it or my dear dad's horn KSTP TV was the first television station in the world to Broadcast News. Pat don't get upset. I'm not going to put down channel for this is this is ancient history KSTP TV was the first television station in the world to have a regularly scheduled Daily News broadcast and from 1948 until 1968. We were number one by such a wide margin that nobody else was even considered as a as a competitor in the marketplace. I can remember so well talking to Ralph Dolan is now the vice president manager case to PTV And discussing with him our number one position and why are we number one? We nobody really knew why we're number one. We just knew we were and we'll just keep doing what we do and hopefully we'll stay number one. I always a great believer however in research and we engage the professor at the University to do some research for us. Back about 1967 or 66 an indicated to us and he indicated to us that we might have a potential problem that there was some real weak areas in our news and we frankly didn't know what to do. We said well, this is great and then our friends our channel for we think very wisely hired McHugh Hoffman. They did some Market Research in a 1968 that came out of the new product which they packaged beautifully and that are wonderful job and they just blew us right out of the saddle. And it was not totally unexpected. It was very smart in their part and I frankly didn't know what to do because I was brought up on the theory that journalism is pure and we don't listen to anybody from outside and you know why there are certain things that are true and and the inalienable and anal inalienable rights of the journalists anyway. So anyway Frank the great the great Frank Magid came to visit us we were totally frustrated. We did not this is very important point to understand we did not want any outsider. Telling us what to do. Think about that as journalists. Who likes to be told what to do? Nobody does and those of us who have been involved in journalism, whether it's journalism management or whether we've been on the street covering stories are doing interviews don't like to have people tell us what to do. But I'll tell you something brother when you got a multimillion-dollar investment and you're getting your brains kicked out every night you all of a sudden start to begin to become willing to listen. And so that's when we that's when we came to know Frank Megan and Frank made came to work for us. Now. Frank's gonna come up to this microphone is going to tell you a little bit about what he does just to kind of set the record straight the research the Consulting and then he's an open it up to questions and answers now from the standpoint of management. I think Frank maggot is probably the most horrific person has ever come along as far as our company is concerned. I think all good things about him there have been good since they're dedicated people who we've worked for our company who have not thought that Frank Magid is so wonderful because a Frank Megan really does is he did he does something it's very uncomfortable to people he gives us a report card and nobody likes to get a report that I remember so well when he first joined a VC at the Abc meeting in Los Angeles running into Peter Jennings and I saw Frank and I said Peter have you ever met Frank Megan and he said that no-good son of a bitch. I don't want to meet him. I mean it was unbelievable. It was like someone had turned a switch on that man, and he started unloading on to me about The rotten things he can think of about Frank Vega because and I know why because Frank Megan worked for ABC and what Frank Mega did was very threatening to Peter Jennings because we'd all like to be able to sit on a throne and be the king or the queen of the world and not have anybody question what we do or perhaps threaten. Our position Frank's job is to threaten my position and your position in to raise questions about what you doing. So, I'm going to bring up the microphone my dear friend the great Frank Reagan and I will tell you say one thing about Frank Megan. I'll make a prediction to you. Frank Megan went to work. It's a very same thing about human nature when people when people Engage The Services of someone like Frank Megan and they are successful. They are all too often quick to forget that it wasn't just their own genius that made them successful, but perhaps they were researching the Consulting had something to do with it. ABC has been very conservative successful for many years using Frank. Maggot and he designed and built the Good Morning America show and to the extent that they listened not necessary to him, but it would to his research they did very well and now they're not doing quite as well as they were doing Frank Magid signed a multimillion-dollar contract with NBC. Three weeks ago and I'm going to make a prediction right now and I'm sorry to have to say this to you unless something very dramatic happens in our business. I would say within three years. NBC News will be number one and the Today Show if they continue to call it the Today Show will be number one. If they pay close attention to the good Services of they're buying from the Frank maggot organization. That's my prediction now. Well, you can all look back look ahead three years and we'll see what happens if I was right or wrong Frank Megan. One more thing. I hope that when he comes to question, the answer is Let It All Hang Out ask is difficult as hard as tough a question as you want to ask because that's the way he operates best. (00:06:16) Thank you Stan. That is what I would call a very challenging introduction. And it is going to be interesting and there is no doubt but what we have for all the years that we have been in this business had a very very interesting and enjoyable time of it as Stan said I'd like briefly to tell you about what we do for those of you who may not already know and to try to clarify exactly how it is that we go about our business. Our organization came into being 27 years ago. It's kind of difficult to remember that far back into remember exactly what television news was like at that time 27 years ago. The picture was considerably different than it is today. Not only in terms of the amount of television news, but also the role that television news played in the total picture of what was then television many of you in this room cannot remember what that was like we do we remember when television news and those early days was only 15 minutes of news and that news was red from what appeared to be wire service copy with no reporters and no features. No Fanfare no introduction it grew and as it did of course many things changed including the amount of time that was devoted to television news the number of people who became involved in Television news and yes, even the sophistication and the impact that television news has and continues to have and probably will have more of in the years to come. Basically, we are retained by television stations to determine what it is that exists in the minds of those individuals who are their viewers and we do this by conducting research our first and most important consideration is that we conduct research and give no comment Pro or con make no value judgments make no statements about what we feel the news is should be or can be we undertake no project for any client in any area and I must say that for those who love you who do not know. We not only serve in the area of communications television stations, but we also serve quite a number of radio stations throughout the United States a considerably And lengthening list of newspapers as well as magazine. So we deal with Communications in many many forms, but we will undertake no project for any client unless we first conduct research because we are very much aware of the fact that we have no crystal ball. We are not able to perceive what may exist and certainly with the complexities that exist today and all of the nuances that exist in the production and the presentation of television news. It would be impossible for any person to sit and watch a news and make any sort of a judgment that is not our field that is not our business. So the first and most important thing that we do is to conduct a research project to determine what it is that individuals do in a particular Market what? A perceived to exist in a given Market how they feel about what they see in that market in all forms the competition the station for whom we may be working and to be able to determine also what it is that individuals not only feel about the products that they see but the kinds of things that are of concern to them the kinds of things that they do Beyond just watching television or listening to the radio or reading a newspaper. We do this, of course by using a questionnaire. Our questionnaires are designed by individuals who we feel have an appropriate background for precisely the kind of work that we are doing we feel very strongly about this because from the very day. That our firm went into business. We made sure that no one who had any less than an advanced degree in their particular field would have anything to do with the design or analysis of any of the research that we undertook and for the past 27 years every day that we have been in business. This has been the case. No one in our organization has anything to do with the design or analysis of any of the research that we undertake that does not have an advanced degree in a particular field today. We're very pleased to say as an example that all of our researchers have phds in their particular fields. And as a matter of fact, probably we have a larger group of researchers that most any University or college anywhere in the United States. These people are drawn from the areas of Psychology from statistics from marketing from Economics from social psychology sociology and other fields as well. These are individuals who are concerned with only one thing not television. They are concerned with human behavior and they are concerned with why people do the things they do and it's to these people that the chore is left to design questionnaires, which will elicit meaningful responses from individuals when we're talking about meaningful responses. We feel that as Professionals in the field that we have an obligation both to ourselves and to our clients to be absolutely objective about what we do a lack of objectivity will not in any way shape or form profit anyone and certainly would not prophesy profit us as an organization. So it's imperative that we make sure that all of those questions are going to provide information that is going to be objective and certainly is going to Useful objectives that we feel are worthy of what we do. The design of a questionnaire of course is subject to review by a number of individuals. Those of you who are familiar with some of the areas that I've spoken about. I'm talking about the various disciplines understand that individuals who come from a particular discipline may have a particular point of view by virtue of their training and so we've always made it a practice to make sure that we have these questionnaires reviewed by individuals who come from different disciplines. And thereby, we think produce a more effective question are those questionnaires are of course then used as a basis for soliciting opinion from the general population that opinion of course is solicited in any number of ways that might fit the circumstance by that. I mean, there are various interviewing techniques. There are such things as personal interviews. There are such things as telephone interviews, there are group interviews and Are other kinds of techniques that are used to elicit opinion the important thing we feel is to ascertain whether or not the opinion solicited is going to be reflective of the population with which we happen to be interested. And of course more importantly, is it going to be something that is as I said accurate and can it really be used appropriately there are certain techniques Frankly Speaking that are popular today in in this field that we frankly will not touch with a ten-foot pole because we do not feel that they are sound we do not feel that they are worthwhile. We feel that they are sales gimmicks when it comes to attracting station business and we will have nothing to do with them. We do feel of course that the development of a sample as an example should be done in an appropriate way. And to our knowledge we are the only firm in this field that employs a full-time staff of sampling experts statisticians who again have advanced degrees who do nothing but draw samples, they are not involved in terms of the design of questionnaires. They're not involved in the analysis of the data. They do nothing but develop an appropriate sample because we feel that sampling is a very key aspect in terms of whether or not the research is going to be as good as it can be that research again. As I said before is committed to the field in some manner either by telephone interview personal interview or whatever technique happens to be used. The data is gathered and then the data is analyzed and that analysis again is in the hands of those individuals who we feel are qualified to make that analysis. We feel that there are factors that we are interested in determining that are well. What some people refer to as an assessment of popularity we are more concerned not only with factors that exist in the market, but why those factors exist we feel that our clients are entitled to know the Genesis of that material and more importantly how that material might be applicable applied in the conditions that exist in that particular Market. Following that we present the data to our client and we review the analysis with the client along with that analysis comes a set of recommendations. In other words. What is to be done to increase the size of the news viewing audience and getting down to Basics that is actually the thrust and the meaning in order to increase the size of the audience and you can only increase the size of the Audience by making sure that you provide a product that is going to be meaningful and worthwhile a product of quality something that is consistent with the objectives of the client and is consistent with the policies of the client and I dare say that for all of the comments that have been made pro or con and all the years that we have been involved in this business. It's surprising to me to find out how many individuals Within. Business are seemingly taking into consideration or jabbing at what they feel are the motives or the concerns or the shall. We say legitimacy of aims of clients. The fact is that we have been serving this field as I said for 27 years and believe me. We don't know of any client that we serve in the broadcasting business whose aims and goals or any less lofty than those individuals who work for them as professional journalists or as others after the research has been completed and the set of recommendations has been submitted to the client what we do then is to try to work with the client in helping the client to implement those recommendations the implementation of course takes Number of forms we deal with Talent we deal with everything from help in terms of writing idea generation a whole series of factors that are subsumed beneath what we refer to as our Consulting service. So plain and simply these are the procedures that are followed to us. It is important in terms of making sure that there is not only a gain made in terms of of increased audience and quality of product but also that the concern is with serving the Public's needs and the Public's interests and these are the things that make up the amalgam if you will in terms of what is what is done. I'd like to perhaps add one footnote to this business of research, which we feel is extremely important often times. I think those who are looking from the outside see individuals coming in discussing perhaps a series of problem areas and then seeing nothing taking place between that time and the time that the research results are presented as a professional researcher one who came out of the academic and one who is concerned with what I consider to be my profession. I think that we more than one perhaps nose takes very seriously what we do in every phase of the research process and we try to point very clearly to the fact that merely the design of questions merely doing a good sample merely doing the kinds of things the steps that I took you through is not Enough in terms of making sure that the data is going to be meaningful and worthwhile the organization size that we have the number of people of professional stature the kinds of efforts that we put behind it are things that are important to us and frankly we're delighted with what we have been able to observe in the years that we have been shall we say practicing what we have been doing. I think now it probably would be wise for me to knowing the fact that many of you have questions open this up to questions and to try to answer any of them that might be of interest to you. Frank maggot the head of an Iowa City based consulting firm called Frank maggot and Associates before he started the company in 1957 Magid taught college level courses at Iowa State in a question answer session maggot was asked what survey techniques he will not use. Yes. I'll give you a couple of examples years ago and it's probably still very much or practiced. There was something that was referred to as galvanic skin response a technique that individuals touted as being capable of indicating what an individual really thought about a situation and skipping any sort of verbal transmission the kind of thing that I think many people would respond to because after all we're all looking for answers and any technique that would supposedly sidestep verbalization would certainly be Innovative and so one thought Powerful when this first came into being we were very interested because after all if there's any technique that is going to work and be of use we would be interested in adopting it so long as we felt that it would be productive and worthwhile and we investigated the situation and found that indeed by using a galvanic skin response technique. You can get a needle to move the problem was that you didn't know exactly what it meant. That is. Yes. You can have an individual respond in a particular way get a quite a quote-unquote sweaty Palm. But what did that mean? How do you interpret that sort of a thing and people were picking up business going around and saying you see you do this and and we'll provide some very interesting answers because once you ask a question about this person in the news all of a sudden, you'll see a swing in the needle and so on and so It not knowing very much about physiology. I asked my brother who happens to be a neurosurgeon if he wouldn't help in ascertaining whether or not that technique had any Merit and he investigated and came back and Drew the same conclusion as we did namely it didn't seem that you can I mean you could get the needle to move but what does it mean one of our clients ABC became so interested in wondered why we were not involved in that sort of thing that they demanded that we have further Evidence beyond what just a family member might say and because my brother was a fellow of the Mayo Clinic he enlisted a number of friends of his still at the clinic and also perhaps one of the people who was best known and considered the dean of this sort of response sort of thing at the University of Washington in the state of Washington and all came back with the same answer. Yes, you'll get a response, but nobody would know. What it would mean we never did. We never supported this sort of thing. We don't believe in that kind of thing. We are not interested in providing anything that we cannot be convinced is going to be not only of some Merit from a professional standpoint. But if some use as well for a client, so that's one example, another questioner asked Frank maggot about the Christine craft case. The newswoman is awaiting a new trial in her sex discrimination suit, the former television anchorwoman for a Kansas City station sued her employer claiming management made decisions affecting her career based on her gender rather than her ability a jury ruled in her favor, but on appeal a judge threw out the verdict and ordered a new trial. Well in terms of the Christine craft thing I can only say as an observer because ours was not the firm that was involved that I have some concerns about what I read and I I can only comment about what I have read took place. So if what actually took place is different from what I read that I think that has to be taken into consideration. I understand that the technique that was used when they spoke about research was what we refer to as a focus group technique. Our organization has Grave concerns over the use of what is referred to as focus groups, but beyond that we feel very strongly that if what was reported was said in front of a group is not to be condoned. And as far as I'm concerned represents, totally unprofessional behavior that there is a great deal that takes place in a focus group that is extremely difficult to manage under the best of conditions. And as I said, we have some very very grave concerns over that (00:26:17) technique Yeah, (00:26:26) yes. That's that is not that is not what we refer to as a focus group of focus group as used normally is when you bring in a group of individuals and you have a moderator and that there is a flea free flow of conversation between individuals in the group and supposedly it is controlled by a moderator Who quote is skilled in dealing with groups to develop from them information that might be useful in the project that's being conducted. What we do is not a focus group The the next point is is I said that if what was reported was said then it is to our way of thinking totally unprofessional and we are we were frankly a gas that that sort of thing would happen. Frankly, would that be the case in our organization? To be honest with you? Whoever would have been involved would have been dismissed on the spot that is totally unprofessional with respect to Christine craft. And whether the matter is is women in television. I think that the issue as far as we are concerned is is a clear one in the first place women are relatively new to television. And as far as their acceptance by the general public it is just as or it is as equal as acceptance of men with the same Proviso that goes with the acceptance of men and that is that ineffective individual is going to be accepted by the general audience no matter or whether they are a man or a woman and to us the issue is not sex, but really the issue is Effectiveness and that is all that it's about and we know nothing about what have what was generated in that particular Market the conclusion that we would have drawn given the very little that we have known from from the reports that we have read was that Miss craft was just not an effective communicator and I cannot believe on the basis of what we see across the country that people could be so naive as to feel that that isn't really the issue and that is the issue now people speak of whether or not a woman at a an in an older age would be accepted and our response here is the fact that again we don't believe that age is the issue but mainly And that the same sort of thing strangely enough had been brought up time and time again particularly with reference to firms like our own that all we would do is to recommend to our clients stations young pretty faces and I take exception to that because at least with our clients you can go across the country and I can point to any number of our client newscasters who are in their 60s now maybe if they're talking about newscasters in their 70s and 80s. I don't know because we don't have any information and that sort of a situation but I do know that we can point with pride too many of our stations who are exceptionally successful who have older men balding men people who would not necessarily be categorized as being young pretty faces. I think as I said before that women really Haven't had a chance to grow old in television yet. And I think that the time will come when that will be put to the test and I will be very very surprised if women who are older don't pass with flying colors what some people consider to be that public concern. So from my point of view, I think that the the concerns and the issues have been focused in properly another questioner wanted to know why the three major commercial television network evening news programs are faced with falling ratings. Well in the first place, I think with respect to network news the the very honest answer and the the real answer is the fact that individuals to a large extent feel that they can get almost the same information by watching any good luck. New show and that the networks are not providing those things that they feel are as unique and might draw them to that news. I think that anybody who has watched news or has been a student of news for a long period of time has to admit that Network news has not changed very much certainly not at all within the last 10 years or so. Oh, yes, there may have been a report from here or an attempt at a triangular situation or whatever the case is but substantially substantively. There has been no real change in terms of network news presentation and individuals do feel a that it's all the same be that they can get almost all of this from many many different areas. Certainly all of the local news that is represented in this room. The the local news operations do a very good job of covering virtually everything that happens in the United States and around the world. And it basically you did a Content analysis. I think that you would be amazed to find that by doing a Content analysis of all of the local news has represented here that you would find that you would not be missing missing much. If you didn't watch a day of the network news Frank Magid was next asked a series of questions about commercial television news beginning with a question about why the critically acclaimed NBC News overnight was canceled maggot was also asked if commercial television Executives were directing news people to report on so-called soft news at the expense of what some refer to as hard news. Well here again, I don't know who is the critic who is a claiming it and the in the first place. I'm not and I'm not saying that disparagingly either. I think there is a matter of commercial viability that does enter in and if either the audience at those hours is not sufficient to Gained support from advertisers. You cannot expect that a network is going to provide that service without being able to pay for that service. And I think that there was that certainly is a tremendous loss to be faced by any network. Well, let's put it this way. I think we in our own capacity as as researchers in this field and working for one of the networks have ourselves been frustrated in terms of what we have suggested be done to change the situation, but you know, people are not only creatures of habit. But in many cases find it very difficult to change what they believe to be the only way of doing things and there is a reluctance on behalf of many individuals. If you take a look at the networks across the way across the board and you talk about people as we were just a short time ago, people are always saying in the Network's. Well, we can't use that individual because he hasn't paid his dues yet. I don't know. What dues are you may know of it seems to be something about which professional journalists talked an awful lot about but the fact is the the dues-paying thing. Seems to not these people the fact that they are quote unquote Network stature. I still don't really know what network stature means and we've been at this business for 27 years, but those are some of the things that preclude these people from making change and that's something that I don't understand. So I'm in the same quandary as you are some time ago. I address Sigma Delta chi on the west coast and it was a tremendous tremendous evening for me, they filled an auditorium. And because I think there were more people there than just those individuals who are interested in journalism and stand brings up a very good point because as they began to talk about all of the soft news that has quote unquote crept into television. I said to those who were who were most vociferous. They're mainly from newspapers why they didn't become exercised about the fact that their newspapers contain the crossword puzzle comics. Why they weren't exercised about the fact that it contained notes from Heloise if that's the column and doctor will whoever he is and things of that sort. Why why did not why weren't they concerned with that sort of thing. And I think that we fail to recognize that that in many many cases. We don't understand that this the reason that we have in this country the kind of good news operations that we do vis-à-vis what you see anywhere else in the world. And I mean anywhere else in the world, we have more news, we have better news and we have people out on the street in every form whether they be reporters or cameramen or what have you more than anyone else in the world. Why because this is done commercially here. It's a free enterprise system. Look at the news and England, you know, you talk about the BC as anyone here watched the BBC News has anybody watched the the the number of anybody total has anybody total the number of minutes devoted to news and whether or not what we do here in this country is far better. There's a reason because we can afford it because the people who are in the commercial business provide the money to pay the salaries and buy the equipment and that's a very important thing. So we have to serve the public and that's a very important thing to do that is not saying and I don't want to be misquoted to saying in saying that quote unquote soft news is what the public wants. because I think that the public has a far broader appetite than what most anybody conceives of their appetite is really being and one does not have to be done at the exclusion of the other. That's the way I'm saying Magid was asked if the definition of news is that which people like to view hear or read? I don't think that as a group all of us fully comprehend what the public really does want? And I say that because the public wants information. The public really wants to know. But believe it or not. I don't think that we are really serving the public effectively in that regard. And as some indication for what I'm saying, let me point to the most recent issue of the Washington journalism review. In there, there is both an individual from the academic a professor of Journalism. And another individual also from the academic out of Journalism. They conducted a very interesting study. And what they did was to ask people about what they knew about various subjects in the news. And they were appalled to find out although we were not after reading that sort of thing because we see it every day that in spite of the fact that the networks and the local stations in markets that they had surveyed and they were very careful to because certainly they would be on the other side of the street. You might expect that in spite of the fact that there was very heavy emphasis on these topics whether it be Beirut or whether it be what's going on in Latin America or whether they be domestic affairs, whatever the case is that the understanding comprehension the knowledge of those things among the general public was so small as to be absolutely frightening where people thought that Lee Iacocca as an example was a Sheikh from some Middle East country where a number of other things now whose responsibility is it because the people don't want to know and our burned with frivolous news or things of that sort or soft news or is it because those who write the news and those who give the news are not effective communicators and getting across what they are charged with the responsibility of doing is it because we are so concerned with our own selves in the eyes of our peers that we neglect to pay the necessary attention. To effective communication that we talked about in the Christine craft situation or what have you and that's really what bothers me as an individual in my particular field about you and your feelings about those in my particular field because I think that there needs to be some self-examination in terms of whether or not you are using the vocabulary in a way of serving the public and giving them what they really want and need because what they want and need is precisely what you're supposed to be doing. But according to people in your own profession are not providing. And this is not a business of Cosmetics or things of that sort hard news soft news. As a matter of fact, it's interesting because the focus always seems to be on the tangential issues of this particular business instead of where I think the focus really belongs, but the light is hot and the light is very very severe because in terms of examination it shows some flaws that I think we all should be very cognizant of you know, I had a very interesting experience once with a news director who allowed me to conduct a study that I will never forget happens to be in a very large and sophisticated Newsroom and all I asked him to do at this time was to allow me to give the simple Time Life current events test that used to be published. I don't know if it still is on every quarter so that for the average individual who just skimmed Time Magazine. Once a week or paid attention to radio news or television news or a child should be able to if that child was in the grades at all be able to determine or Heaven knowledge of current events and with his permission. I gave that test to all of the individuals in The Newsroom those whose profession was news. Out of the entire Newsroom and it was large. One and only one person past the simple current events test. (00:42:52) That tells me (00:42:53) a great deal and I says to me that there is a lot of self-examination do in terms of what quote-unquote we all are doing and not the focus on whether or not we are dressing properly or whether or not we are dealing with soft news or weather Management's policies are one thing or another or what have you. You probably see the same thing as I do. We look for people who can communicate by in terms of not only have much they have some verbal skills, but more importantly because the only things that our clients he's in most cases are written documents provided by us. And I must tell you that I am appalled to see what the writing skills of those individuals who apply for positions even with Advanced degrees happened to be I will also tell you that I am very much concerned with what we see are the writing skills of the individuals who are there in jobs that require communication. So to me, I think that there is a need for some introspection and some need for concern. Well beyond what I now am going to refer to you as being the Cosmetic issues of your profession. A questioner wanted to know how the communications consulting company which Frank Magid leads maintains its objectivity. Well in the first place one can't be totally objective. No one can as a matter of fact. It's interesting to hear that that people in the journalism field our objective or try to be I think we can all try to be objective but none of us can be objective. And the reason that we can't is because we are all a product of some environment and that environment is going to believe it or not. Have a great effect on how we see things there have been countless Studies by the way done showing that that you can have you can take children from underprivileged environments and their actual perception what other people would refer to as differences in in visual perception is considerably different than what is seen by individuals who may come from Different background all of us are products of some background and as a consequence, none of us, there is no such thing as total objectivity. So what we try to do in terms of our analysis and in terms of the recommendations that we make is to make sure that we keep a constant eye on the data that has been submitted now, there is no doubt that if we lose our creativity we are also in trouble as Peter Drucker the Management Consultant very bright and I think capable and and wise individual has said look, you know, it took someone with an idea to come up with an IBM machine and a xerox machine the people didn't ask for it the people had needs but they couldn't create a xerox machine or an IBM machine. And as far as we are concerned one of our responsibilities is to be able to look at this data. And to be able to come up with what this data leads us to believe Will Be an Effective means of achieving a specific cold. Finally Magid was reminded that one of his clients a Texas television station followed his company's advice to win a greater audience and thus more money the advice was to do more of what is called blood and guts reporting chasing fire ambulance and police vehicles. The result. The questioner said is that the station indeed gained more viewers, but the questioner said that does not make the advice right journalistically and I would agree with you. The fact is I will also go so far as to say that generally speaking in the terms that you're speaking of people don't know what they want Frank. Maggot. He is the head of Frank maggot and Associates and Iowa City Communications consulting firm. He spoke recently in the Twin Cities at a meeting of the Society of professional journalists. This is Dan Olson reporting