The subject of our calling this new one is not a happy one, but it's an important one one which affects roughly one-in-five couple should become pregnant each year our topic this noon is pregnancy loss and here to discuss it with me is Cherokee Isles. She's the author of a new book entitled empty arms missiles also conducting workshops for professionals who work with couples who've experienced pregnancy loss Cherokee. Thanks for being here this afternoon. I guess. The first question that I have is what exactly is pregnancy lost. It seems to be a term that could include an awful lot of things thinks. It's a actually the death of a person a small person but but a real person it includes miscarriage, which is typically labeled from any time from conception to 20 weeks stillbirth, which is 20 weeks to birth and that is when a baby is born dead and neonatal death, which is up birth to 4 weeks.And it seems to me that it is just really been in the last year or so that I have been hearing about a growing awareness of the emotional problems that people who experienced miscarriages in particular I'll go through with that prior to that. It was really not talked about very much and rather swept under the rug the common response was when someone has a miscarriage for instance. Oh, that's okay. I know somebody that's had one before it's not a big deal or it hoping to help people get over quickly and not make it light subject. And in fact, that's not the case at all and it doesn't work to do that. Now, it doesn't and you speak from personal experience. Yes. I've had a miscarriage myself and a year ago tomorrow. In fact, I delivered a stillborn baby boy. So there are some very deep feelings that go along with an experience like this and they are feelings that don't go away.Like you might expect them to or at least it's not like having the flu or even going to the hospital for an appendectomy. It's something that people who know people who have had this experience ought to be more aware of perhaps. That's right. It is definitely not something that I should take lightly. It does not go away. It can get better a person can work through their grief and come to a healthy recovery. But in fact, they will never forget that they had a miscarriage if they lost a child and they need to work through that and have an acknowledgement of that don't encourage that forgetting and look forward and let's get on with things and all that sort of thing. Not the forgetting the looking forward and getting on with things. Yes, but it's like anything is such a pet dies if important member of your family dies people need to remember that person to talk about it. They need to work through the grief grief is a very lonely process it takeslong time but people can help its it may take years for some people to get over the loss of someone and especially so for an infant I think because in my case for and since neither of my children were seen by anyone but my husband and myself my my baby boy Brennan was seen by some of the hospital staff my family never signed my friends so they can't relate to him as a person but he was a person 5 minutes past twelve and my guess this afternoon is Cherokee Isles were talking about pregnancy loss and the emotional problems and feelings that come with that experience. If you have a question for our guests, you can call us if you're listening in the Twin Cities at 2276 Thousand Oaks 2276 thousand if you're listening to us outside the Metropolitan Twin Cities area, give us a call toll-free at 1 806-529-7009 toll free number again is one 806-529-7001 in the Twin Cities its 2276 thousand what are some of the things that friends and relatives ought to keep in mind at a time like this for poor person who has just had a miscarriage or who has just experienced a full-term birth, which has resulted in death whenever a couple experiences the loss of their infant. I think it's important for family and friends to understand. This person was important to the parents to acknowledge that and even though it may sound trivial to say things. Like I'm sorry, I feel so badly for you. I can't imagine what you're going through. Is there anything I can do to make suggestions of things that they can do. Can I bring over some dinner? Can I help you to treat it as a death as an important event in 2006 couple is experiencing a tremendous loss will not get over it very quickly. Are there some organizations in Minnesota or here in the Twin Cities that can help parents who've experienced to perinatal death? It's very limited only one can consult with mental health professionals. There are few support groups at a couple of hospitals children's in St. Paul Abaddon Minneapolis North Memorial, but beyond that there is not very much. I'm in the process of trying to find support looking for interested people institutions that might want to Aid in starting with out for now calling a perinatal bereavement Center that can actually Be a referral center for people and offer them some resources and some help some some phone counseling through other parents or refer them to appropriate counselors people on the phone. And if you'll put your headphones on we'll go to the first caller. Good afternoon. You're on the air comment on this problem. This happened to me three times in my married life. The first time was 20 years ago and every year when I birthday rolls around I have not forgotten what we went through our baby was born at 6 months and it was a boy it if people would just learn to say something the right thing rather than all. Well he would have been normal or oh, well, you're young that sort of thing. I am so thankful that there are groups starting up to help the parents through this time and hopefully their friends and relatives will be Where do not like ignore it? That was the worst part is people would say anything. I mean I suppose I didn't know what to say. But I am so thankful that this book is come out in that there will be good to help the younger women that will go through what I went through and that's all I want to say. Thank you for calling you and and the husband's to it's a difficulty for both parents and you're right people need to acknowledge it and even if they say this I was mentioning earlier trivial kinds of things can be so helpful as long as they don't ignore it or don't give us the impression that we should forget about it at as you. So appropriately said you did not forget about your child or children and you will not even years later and to give people a chance to talk about that bring it up. Do you want to talk about your baby now? What did he look like? You people don't ask that about my baby very often unless I encourage them to but I want to talk about what he looked like. One of the things that you talked about in your book is people who have a miscarriage and never are hospitalized. In other words The Experience takes place in the emergency room and perhaps there may be a few hours of rest and recuperation that and then the mother goes home that it seems to me would be an even more difficult situation to try and deal with that. If a person spend a few days in the hospital and it seems to me that spending some time the hospital it might have time to sink in and there would be just a different sort of situation but to go right back home. What do you suggest for people who are in that situation everyone handles death in a miscarriage differently. I think it's for some people it may not seem to be that important. Of a big deal and yet I I encourage them to think about what did it really mean? That was really I was pregnant. Now, I'm not pregnant like you say it's a real instantaneous kind of a thing and what are the the fears they have what are the hopes that they lost one of the biggest things about a miscarriage or stillbirth or neonatal death is that we didn't just lose it wasn't the death of just a fetus. It was actually the loss of the future that I have could have had with this child. So they are if they can look towards thinking about what did this person mean to me? And what was how important was this potential baby in to my life? And what can I do to get over that? I need to talk about this baby. I encourage people who had a miscarriage to think about naming their baby, even if they didn't know the sex because when you talk about your baby or what that this baby would have been in first grade now you can think about them as a person easier. I think when they have a name, so to accept the reality that it Does a baby that's a baby did die and two to talk about how important it was and then to think about how can we move on from there but not to ignore totally or to put it out of one's mind talking about a name brings to brings up the question of formal ceremonies. It seems to me either involving a miscarriage or stillbirth of a full-term baby. What do you say to people who who wonder about things like baptism or wonder about things like a funeral to think about what's right for them? And so there are no correct answers about that baptism depends upon persons needs their religious background what they believe so that's a very personal decision. And I think it's a good idea to talk with clarity about that talk of the family and not take that lightly make a decision that will make sense to them in terms of memorial service. I believe in Memorial services for the family and when one goes through that process and actually makes it official. It's the death of this person. I think I can help the family except the fact that yes. This was a person that wasn't just a miscarriage or just a fetus wasn't just the end of a pregnancy. So I encourage people to look at a regular full funeral or just a small family friends kind of a ceremony. That's what my husband and I chose to do but to include the family and make this ritual and it's an ending and it's also a beginning of where we're going to go from here. It's all it's important. I think for people to think about doing that jerky Isles and we have a number of callers on the line now, so let's take another call good afternoon or listening for your question or comment Hello. Yes, we do. Go ahead. Mike and I had a strange reaction to the whole thing having given a gift ahead of time in anticipation and I extend out with the whole thing with them very closely with something that really puzzles me was that the parents never saw the child how important is it for? The parents actually see the child if I understand that the child came out looking very stressed and I think it was on that basis, but they chose not to not to abuse child, but I don't think it was a Parent's Choice. That's a good question also, most medical professionals. I think are changing their minds in the past. It was suggested strongly suggested. That one did not see the baby trying to protect the parents. And in fact, I think that can do much more harm. I believe it's very difficult to mourn to grieve to get through in a healthy manner the death of someone that you've never seen. So even if there are deformities or as you say the baby was look very stressed. I don't think most often it's in the best interest of the parents to avoid seeing. I know how important that was that I saw my baby and I'll I'll never forget some of what he look like some of that tends to fade my mind, but I can look in my back in my memory and and know what he did he was real. And I know of people that have not seen their children and are searching a street saying I don't believe that my baby died. Maybe he's out there somewhere she is out there. So I think it's very important that you the wishes of the couple need to be taken into consideration. But I strongly encourage medical professionals to keep trying to get them try to encourage them to see their child in even if there are deformities. I know that their there's usually something real special of the fingers something that parents will remember that special and it won't be a bad totally bad situation for them must be for many parents are very very hard thing to try and deal with it. It's not the kind of thing. I would imagine that they have a long long time to think about her decide. That's right and Wednesday. I didn't approach makes all the difference in the world. If a nurse says so here is your baby and he's just so beautiful to look at these neat little fingers is needed security. It's very hard for Turn to turn that down holding. That baby is such a fulfillment and we've been looking forward to that people need to have that opportunity to do that. And we as parents love our children, even if there are something wrong with them. Obviously we still feel very close to them. And so we need to do a little bit of that bonding. We need to say hello before we can say, goodbye listening for your question or comment way this is being treated and the the way so many people are having abortions in a literally killing these babies and thinking not giving it a second. Oh my well, maybe you'll call back that we are having some problems with their phones as you may have noticed. There was some crackling and popping. Is she still there? No, okay. Well give us a call back that was certainly not intentional. Please call us back and then pick up where you left off. We are not big we're experiencing some problems with our phones. Let's take another call. Go ahead. We're listening for you to pregnancies wind up in in miscarriages. I remember reading a statistic few years ago. And I didn't part of the reason is that many miscarriages happen so early that people aren't aware that it's actually a miscarriage or they aren't all reported statistics are not gathered on that. They are guessing many of the guesses range from 15 to 25% as being conservative chances are it's higher than that. That's just miscarriage stillbirth the percentages on that or one out of a hundred. And neonatal death is approximately one out of a hundred and I compiled some of my own statistics Gathering from from the State Department of Health hear what that would mean to Minnesota and I estimated. It's anywhere from 12000 to 23000 pregnancy losses per year in Minnesota. That's a lot of people in it. Sure. Is that a lot of families that are affected? Okay. Let's take another call. Good afternoon your on the air. Comments, it just seems that some of the things that you feel that are not forthcoming from friends and relatives are things that one would expect basic car insurance, decency in chest Simplehuman sympathy to provide and I feel better. I think it's a true that makes this. This name and that's a specific question a venue for talking about more general questions about what what we seem to be losing a few minutes. Talking about people's reactions to death I think is there is a good subject and we could spend quite a bit of time on that. I don't mean to give the impression of people are not able to handle this to friends and relatives are purposely hurtful or don't say the right things many say the right things many do a good job, but they're all so many that in trying to keep the parents from hurting more or trying to protect us do some things that they don't even know are hurtful. And so those are the kinds of comments that I'm trying to encourage people to be aware of and you're right. It's death in general if any kind of a loss how people are uncomfortable that it's our own immortality that whole issue of how we feel about our own death and people that we care about. So for those of you who ever have to deal with a friend a person that's important to you and they are experiencing a loss or death just to let them know that you are sensitive that you care. And as you say Sir that you have some of those common sense Kinds of feelings that you share with them. If you hurt it's really nice. And so helpful to tell me the person is experiencing a loss that you feel badly rather than hoping that by not talking about it. I will get on with it and I won't be in so much pain Shirkey Isles is my guest this afternoon and we're talking about perinatal death about pregnancy loss. And there's one phone line open at the moment. Our number in the Twin Cities is 2 to 76,000 one. 800-652-9700 is the number outside the metro area. Let's take another clock afternoon. You're on the air. Hello. I'm calling from Saint Paul and I was wondering if Cherokee islesbrook might be helpful for people who live through miscarriage at several years ago and are not currently dealing with it anyway. Well, thank you. That's a good question. Also. My book is only been out for a week and it's been rather exciting. I've been sharing it around and just the other day. I was standing at a table and this woman came up and said, oh I'm so glad this is finally being talked about I lost her baby 18 years ago. I want to buy your book and I was really impressed with the fact that and I've been hearing that from a lot of people that it's not something that it's only for those of us who experienced it recently but it's something that dwells in a person's mind for a long time. I know of an 85 year old woman that lost a child many years ago and she still thinks about that child and what they would be doing today. So yes, I think that I can be helpful to help people think through the things that they went through to help them get through some of the things they didn't feel like they handled very well and just to give them an opportunity to talk about it with people because it's still important to them. My baby will be important to me forever for as long as I live. I will want to talk about him every now and then Okay, let's take another call. Good afternoon your on the air. Don't happen overnight doesn't that mean that there must be consideration of bad in the grief process is well through the baby blues and have a hard time adjusting. And now when we are experiencing the death along with just that physical response from a pregnancy and then giving birth it does make a big difference. And so it may be that the mothers are more emotional don't or maybe less emotional emotions are very mixed up in some people should take that into account and not think we'll just because she's not crying or not upset that she's insensitive or she's over it or just because a person spends a month being totally depressed and sad and crying all the time doesn't mean that they're going to need to be committed to a hospital or something. You should think about that. I didn't take into account the fact that the hormonal changes are tremendous. Mothers will need support at that time and will need people that care and can work through with them and give them time months later. They may the shock of it may be over and they may finally be saying what happened and I root my baby really did die and that's when they may need even more support. Okay, let's take another call. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question or comment situations at that. She's describing one thing. I'd I'd like to sit hizo from my point of view is is I beg to differ with her point of view on calling at the death. I think it's I think it's more disturbing in some ways and I in terms of giving it a funeral on that kind of thing. As far as I'm concerned. I would almost consider that almost more roughshod over the feelings of of what's going on the emotional turmoil, especially for example in my wife. I just organic course, it comes down to some of the in a religious point of views, which I don't want to get into but it seems that She's making some rather sweeping comments, which I think are good for individual has to go through that but for an art case, I think it was better to have for us. We we don't look at it as a baby as such we look at it more as it was a a fetus that was miscarried and trying to overcome the emotions. Of course, the expectations of the loss of the future that she mentioned is from that aspect that it is something that we want. We have to pick up the pieces of of the expectations and start over from that point, but I really think it might be dangerous to go through an for the many people anyway for some it might not be but in terms of go ahead and naming and all that kind of thing. I just I was there again, I just really think it for myself it would have caused much more suffering. I I don't mean to pry but I wonder if I can ask you a quick question and that has to do with why do you think it would be dangerous to to give a name the individual point of view of when one when it becomes a baby and for example, when Soul enters and then when our into a religious point of view, but you deserve many of us who feel it still doesn't answer until after birth and then it's just a biological entity until that point, but that's for my aspect. But I know many people feel otherwise, I wouldn't want to cut that off and I just in terms of the sweeping statements quit to end just in just could be dangerous in terms of for us it was we just we just went on and had to went from there and I have I love children. I certainly can't say in all the men aspect. They lost to the Future was something I had great expectation. Picking up from there is something that the fort for myself and for my wife weave, we certainly don't celebrate the birthday every every every month or every year I should say to me that would be again. I think it would be almost somewhat for us anyway somewhat barbaric. So it's a very very individual thing. Yes it is. And I know it is important that people think about it and decide what is right for them because I don't mean to say that every person should name their baby if they had a miscarriage for instance. I think miscarriage is a little different in my mind also in terms of the the length of pregnancy and how someone has become attached for a person that has been waiting for years and trying to get pregnant and so excited about this baby. I miscarriage at 2 weeks can be totally devastated for someone else. They may not have been ready at the time and so it is an individual kind of a thing and there are also as he say, Religious aspects and some people need to think about what's right for them. I'm just in couraging those who feel a definite loss who want to look at this child as given permission to this was a baby if they want to believe that I personally believe that and also it can tend to be a protection kind of a thing that in some cases will protect people from being too attached from feeling too down from becoming too too depressed for other people that can protect them in an adverse way when they need to deal with it and to get on with living but also to acknowledge the importance of this loss in their life, so it is very individual and people need to find what is appropriate for them. Yes, go ahead. Okay, I can't speak from experience for that one because I still have no living children. Although I'm working on that right now. I'm pregnant and due in February but my experience and talk with other people who have had children other children at home many times those children have been involved parents have got help to get them excited. They've been looking forward to this baby and it's very difficult for people to know how to handle their children when they come home from the hospital without a baby in to try to explain that to children in my book. I have a quite an extensive bibliography that gives people at least some ideas of books that they can read to get some information on how to tell children books about the death of pets and trying to help them know what death means there's going to be off in a fear. That's maybe they will die or that if they ever go to the hospital they may not come back there may also be a lot of guilt on their part. I didn't really want to share my Roman because I thought that maybe I caused the baby's death. So I believe it's very important to talk with the siblings about what this means what happened that it wasn't their fault to give them a chance to express their sadness or maybe they aren't going to even be said they may not understand it enough to be sad. But to let them see your sadness as a parent to not hide things from children in terms of protecting them because in fact that's what we don't I don't want people to do to me. I don't want them to hide their feelings to protect me and I feel a child as a person and they have very similar kinds of reactions. Let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air as it were a real life as he said in a time of so many abortions and and the general idea that it's it's not a life until it comes comes out of the body. I want to thank you for that and haven't come through a birth about 8 months ago, which was alive and well, which I'm thankful for I can speak from experience on having a stillbirth, but I but I realize that it was such a traumatic situation whether it comes out alive or dead still at I'm going through the birth of such a traumatic situation. I can't imagine what it was like to have a stillborn baby. But I was just having a word of encouragement for fathers to really be soft at this time when you're coming through to really be soft and encouraging to your wife and and if you have never chosen to go into the delivery room with your wife to do that now and and really be a part of this experience because it really isn't a life and a future ahead of you as you said and I really an important part of your life. I believe that each part of our Lives each aspect of Our Lives. Is ordained for a certain learning experience for us and I believe that if we have a stillborn child or or miscarriage that made it to learning experience for us. We had something to learn about our life and to go on and to keep it in our memories Bill unless you said and to learn from it and see what's what's next for us. Thanks very much for your thoughts. If you try to get through a while ago to make a comment or ask a question of Shirkey Isles. There are a couple of phone lines open now in the Twin Cities are number is 227-6007 6000 if you're listening to us around the state of Minnesota, but outside the metro area call us toll-free at one 800-652-9700. That's one 800-652-9700. And if you're listening to us in one of the surrounding states why give us a call. At area code 612-227-6990 err. Right. Okay. I'm sorry about that. And I just wonder if some of these mothers who have abortions don't go through some of these same feelings and have some many conflicts in their mind and guilt feelings about it and I'll just hang up and listen. Okay, I have not spoken with too many women that have gone through that. Although recently. I was chatting with someone who said I'm very anxious to read your book. It was very difficult thing for me to do and to go through and I named my baby and let you know even if it was just in my own mind and it was not is not easy and also not easy to talk about other people and she had you know had reasons that she felt were very worthwhile. And I mean, I would like to know not will not comment on that but she also Expressing was expressing some of the same things that other people I've talked with whose babies have died. That is very similar. I think for many people but as I say, I don't have a lot of experience with them so far. We've talked mostly about dealing with the initial experience and dealing with the initial experience some weeks or months or perhaps years afterward. What are some of the things that you suggest to parents in the moving on category after at least the initial grieving is over with what are some of the things that you suggest to them as far as looking forward to good question in my book. It's a guide for parents to help them cope and I talked about those initial decisions and spend a lot of time with that because they are very important seeing the baby and naming the baby and what do we do about memorial service and burial and things like that? But it also moves into the first two days and weeks and after some time has passed and recovering cuz I think It's very important that people before we're looking and have some hope and know that they will survive this they can survive this if they can work through it and there are many things that people can do that at the time don't seem possible like just treating yourself and some nice way or take I took a vacation went to Hawaii last January and it was important for me to have a chance to get away and to do some other positive things to think about. What do I have to look forward to many times when you're in the midst of something heavy like this kind of a grief any kind of agree. It's hard to imagine anything else matters, except how I'm feeling right now in this person that just died but as what we work through that to look forward to a wet. What are other children into and what do I have work wise to look forward to and how about my relationship? How can we enhance our relationship to do some real specific things like Going out to dinner I had to force myself to go out to dinner afterwards. So I really didn't want to be around people. I wanted to be at home and it's it's easy to stay depressed. If we don't have things to look forward to to plan some fun activities and then to take some time. I would always it didn't I didn't have to make time but some people might because they want to hook ten-to-one avoid this but to make time to talk with your spouse for instance or family member about yet today. I feel real sad and and I'm going to cancel that engagement. I'm thinking about my baby run thinking about this but at the same time for encouraging people to to look towards tomorrow and maybe taking it a day at a time maybe a minute at a time in the beginning is all person can do but then looking for it forward to tomorrow. What will I do tomorrow? That will make me feel good do some things to help yourself feel good. Okay, let's take another call. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question or comment kids there was my mother made her aware to me up 10 years ago or so that there been a miscarriage before me in a couple between me and my sister. and a couple more between her and my younger brother and I guess the point I'd like to make as that I guess as I look back on it that ass kids weren't we're not really aware of it that much and that I guess her view was that she should carry on with the Things I have to be done when you're raising children. I have two young ones. I know that that could be a full-time job in and of itself maybe that's helpful in circumstances where there's already a child present that can take up your time after a miscarriage or something like that. I was kind of wondering what your thoughts are on that because I see it almost as being appreciative on my part that she didn't pull away from my kids because of the miscarriage in that time. She just went on with the rearing of the children so they speak well, I'm glad that she was able to do that many people are able to let it have to move on if you say and can keep up with the daily activities because things can't stop because I'm this person has experience to a death or a loss but in terms of Well how to how to handle that people will do that differently and children, you know, maybe weren't that involved in the pregnancy. I know a lot of my friends who are people that I've talked with that have experienced. This really had set the children up and they showed you know, looking forward to their baby brother or sister. And in that case, it's very difficult. I think to pretend that nothing happened or that all of a sudden now, we're not having a baby so that you need to deal with it. However, it has been said in the family and out what that role isn't things were a little different I think years ago two people really didn't share that maybe as much or it wasn't as easy to talk about but in terms of having another child to deal with at home and how that can help I think that's your ride. The probably that for me there was I was home alone empty. I did get a cat that I could at least mother something but friends that I talk with you have children are at least glad that yes indeed. They have something to do to keep them busy and it is important that we go on with our lives, but at the same Time I hope people will choose not to be so busy that they just push this out of their mind because it will pop up eventually and they'll have to deal with it at some time. I was interested in the comment that you just had about coming back to it after a while because this is sort of what I went to my parents had a baby brother for me when I was about three or four I can't even remember quick because I I wasn't very involved with the time, but I know that when we were old enough to understand they took us to the cemetery and And found the graves for us and we were able to understand that this is what part of our family was and so years later when I had a boy of my own I named him after the brother that I couldn't have and it is very important to keep this going and I have not gone through any miscarriages myself. I have five quite healthy children of my own really aren't interested in having children right now in the same area. We went to the cemetery again to visit the place where my brother was, but then we couldn't find And so we came away rather disappointed but the family that was there and I could understand it that we were looking for something that was a part of us. and I don't know if I have anything more to say that the that is very apropos to the situation without going way off on a tangent. Well, thank you for calling it sounds like for you at that the whole ritual of a funeral or at least of having a gravesite worked as Shirkey says it it works very well for some people. Yes, and thank you for the special comments that you shared about that your parents passing that on to you and how important that's been. I think that is we can be very helpful for many families. I know in my case. I am wrote a diary to my baby Brennan when I was pregnant with him and we'll talk about my feelings and what the pregnancy was like and I was going to keep this up and give it to him when he grew up and I had to write the last of course by painful chapter after he died. But what I've decided is that I will keep that and share that with my other children. When they get older so that they can at least know a little bit about what Brennan was was like what he meant to me my feelings when I was pregnant with him and to help make him an important part of their life. He will he will be you know who have been there brother to another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Call Dan about. Who have abortions? It's not that easy decision for us. And second off. I felt throughout the whole process of saying I'll have one after I found out I was pregnant that I was the one that was constantly saying it's a baby and I just I don't want to carry to term and the people that I was dealing with her constantly saying enter product of conception and all that kind of thing and I'm hoping that things are changed in the way the Health Professions professional take care of abortions, but I have the feeling you're not it's a lot. It's a baby that you decide not to bring today and you're hoping that professionals would deal with it in those terms rather than refer to it as a product of conception. She is possibly I don't know if I could have stayed going to some type of small ceremony. I essentially many years later went through ceremony in my own mind with a baby and apologize to it for not having it. But I feel that there is no support for those kind of feelings. It's almost as bad taste to grieve after you've had an abortion. I was not very pregnant 9 weeks. So it wasn't even carry obvious to me. That's why the fact that mr. But there is no support for grieving after you've had an abortion, especially in earlier. Thanks for calling. Thank you for those coming another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. A simple surprise. I'm from Wisconsin and our son David was born and then he died. Just three weeks ago a really good friend call to tell me about your show and I want to tell you thank you for talking. You're welcome. Past few weeks have been the number of people, you know what they weren't able to know David and we wanted to tell him about him because he was so real for so long in a long enough, but he was with us for the time. He was so many people that it's hard for them. But I also know it's horribly cruel for us to not have the chance to talk about his wife as well as his dad's. I'm I'm so sorry about your son David and I thank you for taking this risk to call because that's not easier. Willing to share the grief that you probably still have at times so that those of us who are going through it. Or will maybe need to even go through it again know that we aren't alone and know that there are other people that have have somehow managed to make it into begin to be hopeful again. Always find it here, but I'm glad I can find it was able to find you today. Well, thank you. I do want to encourage you that it's it's it's terrible. You must feel in the depths of Despair right now, but do have hope you will recover and I'd like you to stand in line and maybe they can get your address because I'd like to send you a copy of my book and I would like to encourage you to pass that on to your friends and family, especially those who are feeling real uncomfortable with how to deal with you because I think I can give them some sense of the words that maybe you can't say right now, but that I was able to put down on paper of what you're going through. Okay, let's take another call. Good afternoon your on the air. I had a stillbirth after a full-term pregnancy. 17 years ago. I was 32 at the time and had been waiting for a family and the friends that came through and said yes, we had her first one was stillborn and they had going on to have a family after that. He was very comforting but one problem at the hospital to hospital Personnel was not very helpful and say I know he was all we ought to I have three children out 15 14 and 12 and we had told them that the first one was stillborn and they quite off with him about it in it. It doesn't surprise me that they are. So interested to know and talk about it. Can you say Cherokee that you think that that's changing the attitude of of the healthcare profession? I've been in contact with many hospitals. And that's one of the things that I hope to do in the next few months and years is on to do some in services and some some work with them to help them set up a system and be in touch with their feelings so that they can better deal with people. I think that there's a very definite interest a lot of those doctors nurses midwives some there in contact with me with people that are doing some similar work or at least wanting to know how to handle it better. They have a need to know how to handle it better and I don't think they've done this those of you who've had bad experiences or if they didn't let you see your baby or didn't call it a baby or whatever. I don't think they did that is a purposeful kind of hurtful thing, but rather hoping to help parents and now the more we talked about in the more we let people know that that it is important that you won't help me. Avoid it by help to help me avoid that you don't help me. So I think that they are very open to this and and I do believe that there's a lot many hospitals right now or have been in touch with me and saying what can we do and let's set up some in-services and let's do some things and I'm open to doing some consultation with hospitals about how to do that. Very thing when you're on the air. To want to add my thanks that this book has gotten written. I've got a manuscript in process myself covering some of the same ground. I'd like to tell your listeners that this coming Saturday at St. John's Lutheran Church 49th and Nicollet The Birth Community a local alternative childbirth group is going to be having her annual birthday gathering and if some of the parents there want to gather into a group to talk about their losses, why will be very willing to consider that as one of the special topics to work on. I want to see to it that when I was studying a grieving parents during my own clinical training days. I was impressed with the sensitiveness of the nurses and the young residents and the family practice Physicians. They really seem to have their their hearts in the right place and be willing to help people grieve rather than sticking with the older tradition. I won't pretend that nothing ever happened. Okay, hang on the line just a second you said again? It is that this affair is going on this coming Sunday. in the afternoon very loud church WIll you hang on the line a second because Cherokee would like to get your phone number and maybe Dorothea can get that from you. Well as we move along to the next caller, let's let's go ahead and resources to people. I just want a mansion because people have asked me how can I get ahold of my book and I would like to mention that order guards and hungry mind and some of the B Dalton stores. I'm working on getting it and I'll be gone the stores will be carrying this and I'm sure that if you just ask a store and mentioned the name that they'll make contact or I'll make contact with them empty arms. And the author is Cherokee. I let's take another call. Good afternoon. You're on the air. I had a miscarriage about a year-and-a-half ago and it took it was a traumatic experience and it took me a while before I could get it I even want I can see it again. And when I finally did the whole nine months, I was so afraid that I was going to go have to go through this again. And I thought that was really it was really hard going to the pregnancy again with all these fears that it could happen again. I'm glad you brought that up because that is a fear and a concern the people have rightly. So I know this is my third pregnancy now and I'm have gotten through the stage where it's likely that I would have had a miscarriage and that was a a sigh of relief for sure, but I have to go all the way now because my baby died at full term day after due date and it is a tense time and it is very difficult and it's hard to find support and it's hard to know what I need and and there aren't a lot of people care in the Ask me how are you doing? How are you really doing and it is this tough, but there's not much that anyone can really do in terms of offering comfort and help Beyond some of those words because it's a very personal thing that my husband and I have to work through how we handle it how we feel about it and and I'm tense but I try to make that less conscious kind of a thing in and think about what I'm doing at the time and I I know that I purposely keep busy so I don't have to think about it but it isn't an easy thing to go through another subsequent pregnancy and I am people who are working through that right now. I ain't or it will be in the future. I encourage you to find someone that you can talk with and that you can be real honest and open with and say for this is awful. And when how are you feeling about this? There's a Siri know about do I even set up the baby's room because maybe if I do something's going to happen and then I'm going to have to be go through all that dismantling again. So it's it is not an easy. To go through we have time for a few more calls. Let's take another one right now. Good afternoon. You're on the air. I don't deal with this. And I had real feelings for the gentleman who was talking about the baby that didn't really exist in every soul until the moment of birth. I had some real difficulties dealing with the loss of my 2 week old son for prematurity 3 years. And I meant I'm a nurse and I deal with grieving families everyday and identify the right things. I understood that they've things happened that it wasn't anyone's fault that he lived. He probably would have been grossly handicapped and I felt like I accepted that I went on with my life. We adopted a little girl and I think the Reel Shot came for me just about six months ago when I realized that I wasn't over it. It was harder now than I have been 3 years ago and that although I had felt as though I had dealt with it. I haven't dealt with it on an emotional level and all the comforting things that I could say to myself watch helping me feel any better and it's a terrifying thing to realize that this is a pain that will in some way always be with you within another child will not take the place and we're now dealing with the theories of attempting another pregnancy and I can really identify with What it must be like to try to hear another pregnancy wondering if you're going to lose that baby too. I guess it's just been important for me to say because this is been so traumatic for myself that I was standing what happened to being able to say that you don't believe that person was really a baby is still a great deal of great feel for the child that could have become if it has been given the chance and I just want to emphasize to those people that are trying to go on with their lives, but they don't do that at the expense of feeling a tremendous pain that they've got to be feeling Thank you. If I could give some words of advice or or someone said what is the one thing that you would like to share with everyone? I think you've hit it on the nose. And that is that people need I just want I just hope the people will Express their emotions and allow them and I mean both men and women because we haven't talked much about men and they hurt and they feel the pain and their child has died just as much as moms has but to express those emotions and let them out into know that six months later five years later 19 years later. Those feelings might come out again that pain may still be there and to allow oneself to just to feel and and to let those emotions go. I think it's real helpful and real important and can help one at least to have many many good days. Even if you are going to have and I admit to myself I will have some very bad days, too. I want that to happen if it needs to happen and I'll allow it. One or two more calls. Let's take another one right now. Good afternoon. You're on the air. Yes. Hello. I'm coming from the range and just a few. I had a young mother on but had a brother. Long ago and she was quite concerned that apparently nobody understood or nobody sends her feelings. I want to reassure her that to her groups around the state of Minnesota that are very helpful and most of them are banned by people who are very sympathetic and very understanding very helpful. And I would hope that people who have those problems with feel free to go to their ministers are priests. Their Birthright groups are various other groups they are available. Thanks very much. We have one more call on the line. Let's try and get that a person on the floor. We finish go ahead. We're listening for your question. Everything that has been said I lost a sister in 1936. She was 21 years old at the time. I was 7 or 8 years old and other than Fact that I knew she had died. We were very close-knit family and not one word was spoken of this my my mother completely buried it. My father was able to express it in poems, which I found much much later and it wasn't until I was in college that I realized there wasn't even a gravestone on her grave and that we had never mentioned this this sister is such a daughter whatever and that at that point I forced the issue by forcing making people talk about it. And please don't be put up with such obviously such a relief to my mother who had harbored. This was in herself for all those many many years that all of a sudden pictures of my sister began to come back up on the dresser and a brother named his daughter after her and that it was just a whole bad things are sometimes I think Someone in the family, even if it's painful hip needs too much sooner than I did it needs to force the issue. So that way I feel cheated because I never really know she was as my sister but I never shared any of her life and that's my only comment. I think this is a wonderful thing to be talking about and I think somebody needs to take that responsibility for the for the bereaved parents. If they can't hack it themselves. This afternoon has been Cherokee Isles. Her book is a new one and it's entitled empty arms and it's available at some book stores in the Twin Cities over the guards and the hungry mind and some be Dalton's and I expect it'll be popping up at other places before too long. If you want to get in touch with Cherokee, we would like to suggest that you do it through MPR if you're in the Twin Cities and don't if you don't get through right now try later in the afternoon to 211. 507-221-1507 is a phone number that you can call and that we can put you in touch with the Cherokee aisle.