(00:00:05) Minnesota's new maximum-security prison opened within the past couple of weeks. The new prison has attracted a lot of attention obviously from news organizations in our area and also some national attention. There was an article this past week week before this actually in the New York Times people from Newsweek have been out taking pictures of the new prison at least. Those are the ones that we know about for sure the opening of the prison perhaps as good an excuse as we can think of as if we needed one to invite Minnesota Corrections commissioner Jack young to our studios in the Twin Cities, Jack young has spent more than 30 years in the corrections field in Minnesota. He worked in the probation area in st. Louis county in the 50s and early 60s. He spent five years as superintendent of the st. Cloud Reformatory and then took over as Warden of Stillwater prison in 1968, Jack young spent most of the 1970s at the Amherst Wilder Foundation. Developing among other things a variety of Community Corrections programs. And since 1979 Jack young has been correction ER or Corrections commissioner for the state of Minnesota. The telephone numbers will give out in just a moment. But Jack young. Let's talk a little bit about that new prison. First of all, it's been under under construction for what about three or four years? Yes Bob. It's been under construction for a long time. It was it was conceived back in the early 70s. A lot of planning was done construction was started and then of course was delayed for a while and they ran into some cost overrun problems, but it was opened here within the past two weeks. You know, it's a 400 bed maximum security institution in broken down into eight separate units. It is going to be I think an institution at state of, Minnesota. Be proud of it. Actually. I think there's some confusion among the among the citizenry some see it as a replacement facility for Stillwater. It actually was not planned to be a replacement facility. It was planned to be an additional Correctional Facility in Minnesota, but the game plan in terms of legislative intent was that still water which has a capacity of about Eleven Hundred inmates that the that after the new prison was up and going and 400 people in the new facility that the Stillwater prison could be reduced by about that that number so it could be a facility for about 700 and then there would be a better control easier to manage and I think the plan was it still water could become more of a medium security facility within the walls rather than a Maximum Security Prison at it now is well as we heard in Dan Olsen's report just before noon. Hennepin County is putting its drunk drivers in jail. Obviously Oak Park Heights is not designed for drunk drivers. It's a maximum security facility who will Who are the the inmates there? What kinds of things have they done? Actually it was designed to house the more difficult to manage high security risk type type cases, whether we have 400 of those in our system. I really don't know we have about 2,000 adults in our correctional facilities in Minnesota in our State Correctional Facilities. I think as we move into Park Heights and by the way, we just have one unit. That's up and going now. We have 40 40 some inmates in the in there at at this time. We don't have enough money to open the entire prison in the during this this biennium. We only would be able to open up one one unit. But with the with the Wisconsin dollars that are coming in we hope to have four. Open during this biennium and maybe even five but basically it's to put the more Troublesome inmates. The more high-risk six cases are so that the are other institutions that sing cloud and Stillwater can possibly relax a little bit and become more more more medium security variety. We also will have a segregation unit at Oak Park Heights will also have a health care unit. A unit of 42 weather will be 32 psychiatric beds and 1010 medical beds check young Corrections commissioner is with us today, and they Minneapolis st. Paul area. If you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand is the phone number to call to to 76 thousand for those of you listening in the Twin Cities area outside Minneapolis st. Paul. We have a toll-free telephone number. And that number is 1-800-695-1418 hundred six hundred 529700 the often say commissioner that people learn more in prison about crime than they do about getting along in the real world is is that true and is there anything that is being done in the design of that new prison to help cut down the odds of that? Well Bob certainly that claim is made about prisons many times and I think the problems in prisons vary from state to state. I think think over the years Minnesota has been fortunate we've had fewer problems and they have many other parts of the country because I think both the executive and legislative branches of government and Minnesota both sides of the aisle Democrats and Republicans have really put money in our collection system and tried to do some things. Corrections hasn't been as controversial in Minnesota as it has been in many other states, but we do know some things that those who come to prison for the most part to have long. Well established patterns of criminal behavior that may change a little bit with sentencing guidelines because as the as the guidelines are determining who should and should not go to prison and for how long they should stay we probably will be having more first offenders come into our system if this if the severity of their crime is is is great. But I think over the years we have learned one thing in Corrections that we can control people better that we can manage them better that we can help them help themselves better in smaller units where we know more what's going on. There can be better supervision and better control, I guess as I look at a prison system. I see some things that are that are One it has to be constitutional and the federal courts in recent years have come on very strong and sitting down conditions of confinement in a sort of thing. So I think a prison system has to be constitutional. I think it has to be Humane. It has to be safe for both staff and inmates and I think good prison system has to provide opportunities for people to to improve themselves. Certainly. Everyone doesn't want to come out of an institution law-abiding but I'm convinced it many do and to try and provide them the opportunities and some hope I think a good prison system has to have some hope built into it for the persons that are being confined there. We have people on the line with questions for you commissioner. So let's go to our first caller. Go ahead, please you're on the air. (00:08:00) This is Peter. How are you? Jack? Yes, sir. How are you, sir? I'm just fine. You have credentials that sort of cover the ground from Liberal perspective and you know a lot about the kinds of people that wind up in prison. Would you use it out of bound bound to ask you to share your opinions on not ss1, but the successor bills before the Congress that have the effect in some ways of limiting the liberty of a person prior to conviction, especially for people who are repeaters and that sort of thing. (00:08:49) Why don't you just expand on that a little bit more so I know specifically the (00:08:54) well as I am not terribly conversant with the bills that are before the Congress right now, but there seems to be a concern Among a lot of people that persons who are charged with a violent crime who'd be incarcerated prior to trial that bail laws should be tightened up and also after trial that it shouldn't be so easy to get back out a role in that sort of thing for persons convicted of a violent crime. (00:09:34) Well, I certainly you know, I have some opinions in a lot of these areas. I see in the state of Wisconsin just just last week that I believe there was some legislation passed in that state that for certain number of days the would would make it impossible for certain kinds of offenders to be able to post bail in the whole issue of right to bail. I guess. I feel that we have to there are many UPS along the path along the line back at the law enforcement level at the at the apprehension level at the charging practices of county attorney's in and at both these State and the federal level where we can identify persons who are dangerous and I see my whole background is one of corrections, but what underlies good Corrections practice to me as public safety and I think there are points along the road that that you can identify people who are a danger to the public and I think the system somehow has to be able to take that into consideration and be able to restrain the liberty of those folks that that have been determined to be dangerous at the same time. You have to balance that with with, you know the right to trial and and you end the certainly you can't assume people are guilty before they're convicted. It's a very delicate Gary I know the president is command strongly in that area. It's a delicate balance and I don't have the answer for it. But I'm doing I am saying there are some very dangerous people that have to be identified in the public has to be protected at various stages in the process. We have another listener with the question. Go ahead and please you're on the air. (00:11:25) Yes tune in the flooring or just this afternoon and brother you'll nerve this is not via no question in my mind is just a reply and remark and and nothing of Cruces whatsoever. I have business prisons torso times and this filled find the boys liking to read the Bible and they come to know what the Bible is all about and the prey and you know, if there are United States with more families would start rehab I was home praying right to botos the tray down 1694 it all people you enjoying my the Georgian wires. Are they all Capone gang was on radio the other day, and I was just just with my with the way he spoke for us after he became a born-again Christian who died 10 years ago that he sees life, you know whole different perspective after Chris normal at home progress by the grace of God. (00:12:37) Thank you very much for calling with the observation, sir. All right, it's quarter past 12:00. Noon. Our Guest is Jack young Minnesota Corrections commissioner. And we have another listener 2276 thousand is the telephone number if you'd like to join our conversation in the Twin Cities area outside Minneapolis st. Paul one 865 29700. We have been talking so far commissioner about the prison system particularly the new prison at Oak Park Heights, but I know your department is responsible for a lot of other Corrections activities and programs as well. What are just a few of them so that we can expand the scope of this little bit maybe an interesting observation Bob because most people when they think of the Department of Corrections, I think of Stillwater they think of Oak Park Heights now and of course, we do operate 9 institutions both Juvenile and adult but that is only a piece of what we're doing. Right. Now we have responsibilities ordinarily for about 2,000 adults in our prison system and probably 300 juveniles in our juvenile institutions. But at any one time we have responsibility for more than twice that number in terms of various kinds of community programs those on probation those on parole those who are in various community centers. The Department of Corrections has has responsibility for victims programs throughout the state where we do administer dollars and work with with 15 battered women shelters. It's a tremendous tremendously important function that we that we serve in terms of victims of sexual assault. We have something like 24 programs or going on around the state that our department is has been given responsibility by the legislature. To administer those dollars and and work with those programs crime crime victim centers throughout State. We are were involved in administering those dollars in the vending fine work that they're they're doing the department also has his responsibility for licensing and inspecting various kinds of correctional facilities and standard setting for jails group homes. It's a wide wide variety of things that were doing and involves. I might say but 1600 employees are our biennial budget is about a hundred and thirty million dollars. We have were one of the larger State departments and there's there's lots of lots of activity outside of still water in Oak Park Heights. All right. Let's see if we have another listener with a question for commissioner Jack young. Go ahead, please you're on the (00:15:36) air. I have a question commissioner. What is the present status of research in Corrections and house that used in your process? (00:15:44) Well Correctional research is almost an untapped issue. We have fortunately state of Minnesota substantial number of dollars have been have been given to the department so that we can attempt to do some planning and also to evaluate our programs and what we're doing and by the way, we have a very sophisticated information system. We have lots of computers built into various aspects of the Department of Corrections and it's been a great help to us to try and evaluate what we're doing and I think now as Corrections moves to try new things and by the way, it's very difficult in the last several years to try any new things with with the dollar constraints. It's been a difficult time to do when we're in an era of trying to do more more with with less. But as we build new programs, we try and build evaluation components into that so we can try and determine if they make a difference or not and how effective they are. I think Minnesota along with two or three other states probably doing more in that direction than than any other states. Have you pretty much had to give up the notion of Rehabilitation that that seems to have been a real popular thing back in the in the 60s to be sure and in part of the 70s, but it doesn't seem to have worked too. Well, does it well, I don't happen to agree Bob with those who steadily claim that I think that we get into the the argument is the job of the prison and we're here again, we're back to prisons I guess to to to rehabilitate or is it to protect society and and I see them going hand in hand as I mentioned before I think we have to provide opportunities for people in our institutions to change because people in our institutions are going to be back out in the free community again, and I think anything that we can do in our in our system to try and help people change, it does protect Society because then people are less likely to to leave. Community and go out and victimized other people in the community again, you know, when we talk about return rates those coming back to our instance in institutions. We have done in our adult institutions for instance. A follow-up of figures came out just several months ago following people for 30 months after they leave our adult institutions. And actually at the track record is a lot better than some people might might think for in terms of that 30 months period they were actually only 14% of the person's released. It came back with new offenses. Now that was an additional 27 percent that came back for rules violations of parole kind of thing, but actually not new kinds of offenses being committed or at least being convicted of so, we really had that's about 40 percent total. So there's really 60% or in a 30 month period that He didn't come back into our system and that doesn't mean there weren't some to didn't get in left estate and got in trouble in Alabama or something like that. But for the most part the track record of those leaving the prison system in Minnesota and coming back into the prison system is pretty good. We have more listeners with questions for commissioner Jack Young from the Department of Corrections. Go ahead, please you're on the (00:19:31) air Shamone from Waukesha commissioner just touched on one of my question. The recidivism rate in Minnesota indicated. It was for 30 months. I believe. What is the recidivism rate or say 5 10 20 years. I'd like to know if we follow up that far and secondly, I'd like to know if commissioner young is familiar with the work of Professor kohlberg from Harvard and whether when what he thinks of that type of prison system (00:20:04) in terms of the of the recidivism rate, I'd have to say that we do not have actual recidivism figured nobody has recidivism figures in terms of how many people actually get into trouble again you can't you can't monitor people through the total total system there that way I do know that the first year the first 12 months of people are the system that's the period of time they're they're they're more likely to get back back into trouble for it for example in in our in our 30 month follow-up follow-up are two and a half year follow follow up 28% of those who failed failed in the first 12 months then it then it didn't in an additional ten percent in the next year and and another percentage in that next six six months so there just are not figures available in terms of Correctional research any place in the country and has some of the foundation's have funded Research projects in terms of trying to look at recidivism, but there really is not factual data available return rates. How many come back into the system that they leave that's about the closest thing. We did we come to he also was curious about the work of professor at Harvard by the name of kohlberg I believe right and I'm not not greatly familiar with you want to expand and I'm and I'm aware of some of the things that he's talked about when you talk about the kind of prison system he's talking about I guess I'm not familiar with just spell it out a little bit more. I think he probably hung up and went back to listening on the radio. I think basically some of the so called free enterprise approach to prisons making the prison's more like the outside community and in this sort of sort of thing that sort of thing is is there are many Advocates of that and in fact we were even trying some of those things here in Minnesota in terms of of doing trying to work people provide up to try and provide opportunities for employment for them in the institutions to try and provide wages for the minions into institution and try and provide some similarities to the extent possible in terms of work experience in the institution as it would cook compared to outside of the institution to two seven six thousand is the telephone number in Minneapolis st. Paul if you have a question about corrections for Jack young in other parts of Minnesota the toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 you believe that one or two lines are open right now Another caller standing by go ahead, please you're on the air. (00:23:05) Yes. I was wondering what is actually being done to get convicts to actually pay for their crimes not just serving time. But in paying back the victim for example financially or in terms of just reimbursement of the damage that was done. Also trying to get them we talk about Rehabilitation, but how about in terms of just getting them to beerus to learn to be responsible for their own actions that they're responsible for their own actions and that was kind of a two-fold question a second thing. I'd like a kind of a description of the facilities to see if somehow I get the impression that in some ways. It's more comfortable than Still Water. It may not be true. But I just like you to describe that and in well, I'll just turn it over to you. (00:24:02) Well, I Just come in a couple of things as certainly restitution requiring people to pay back. The person's they victimized. I certainly strongly support that over the years the call came from from Duluth a few minutes ago and back in the years that I was up in Duluth. We used to collect lots of restitution both in the Juvenile and adult courts up there the courts up there always felt strongly. It was a standard condition of probation that anyone would be required to make restitution to the persons that they offended it and this that kind of faded out in some parts of the country over the years. I think in recent years restitution is back in Vogue again, and there are some very interesting projects that have gone on there's a very interesting one going on now in Dakota County, but I think the district court judges of the state I think are utilizing restitution is a condition of probation. Very very very, Strongly, it is not as easy to require restitution in terms of persons. Once they've been committed to the system and to the prison system. Although there is some of that some of that that's that's going going on. The second part of the question would he was curious about whether the new prison was more comfortable essentially I think and it's interesting we've had we did have before the prison was opened some Public tours. I talked with many folks that visited Oak Park Heights and number of letters have come in since that time very for the most part people do not see Oak Park Heights is a comfortable prison when you go into the two individual rooms, is there concrete rooms there there's windows in them. There's a small window in it, but they're at a concrete bed. It's not the it's not the Holiday Inn kind of thing that some people might I think it wouldn't be but here again, we're dealing with conditions of confinement. The courts have prescribed numbers of square feet to must be available things that must be provided provided. I think Oak Park Heights has done that and I don't it's a you know, it's the old story that people are are committed to prison as punishment for something they've done to hold them accountable as this gentleman as mentioned. They're not committed for punishment. In other words to get them there and punish them when they get to get there. I think the fact they've been restrained of their freedom and their Liberty Liberty. That's that's the issue. I think that that we try and provide a Humane environment for them, but certainly not a luxurious environment and I don't think you'll find a luxurious environment in in any of our correctional facilities. It's exactly 12:30 Jack young the corrections commissioner for the state of Minnesota is with us and we have another listener with a question. Go ahead please (00:27:03) yes curious to hear the program today. And so I thought I'd give it a call. I was interested in speaking with the commissioner you yes, sir. Personally. I have a few concerns one being is that I myself, you know did some time and he serves and time and still water. From eight years ago and I've been out since unfortunately I ever had the experiences of having run-ins with police who know me by my first name who seem to with Mother rather much, you know much rather have me portrayed as a criminal who consistently, you know arrest me on the street of take me down and like milk the probable cause and these kinds of things I think, you know contribute more to the receive the recidivism rate as much as behavior on the parts of ex-offenders on the other hand. I think and in this is something that should be considered because the criminal justice system's get hooked up in these things after the alleged crime has been committed whatever it was. It was Major, you know, felony or some misdemeanor, you know what I mean? And the criminal justice system does get involved and I remember Jack young fishing on did say that that the court and dude punished prison punish the person, you know what to get him in prison, but to in fact, you know, make some kinds of punishment because it crime he had committed yet in many instances, you know that crimes that are committed on two people then themselves become victims and I think that this is you know, this is a problem that should be addressed within the criminal justice system because I don't think could be done in the street with the police or in the courts who I've really in impartial and unconcerned really about anything but the law and In the law is being administered by. You know people over another segment of the population who you know that segment being the people who eventually end up in prisons or having to live the kinds of lifestyles of conditions. Well, that's for stardom in the street that would you know, eventually force them into the criminal system whether you know on a major crime of mine. I think these are concerns that should be addressed in any ideology. That's what ever is going to float around within the criminal justice system and future on the other hand for the present. I was thinking being an extra fan of myself and all those like me who do in fact learn learn something from that experience. Some positive and then grow from it and who become interested individuals like myself. I am interested in many things one being to be of Aid and some kind of assistance to people caught in that kind of dilemma, but you know because sure there are many cars is they get each individual there, you know, but prisons are like Pandora boxx's, you know vendors with the bitches and I think there's some kind of Distinction should be made some people should be weeded out those who you know who are in control of their senses and don't need mental restraints or who knows that they had a conditional cause that led them to say, maybe Rob something gets money, you know money not not really hurt somebody but get some money, you know something they can spend and negotiate with (00:31:10) no, sir. Thank you for calling. Let's see if the commissioner has any response to some of the some of the issues that you've raised there. Well, I think that the gentleman certainly makes him interesting points as this matter of trying to weed out people out of the system and only get people in prison that belong there at least that's one of the points. He covered quite a quite a few and I think basically Minnesota has his done a pretty good job of doing that. You might be interested to know that the 50 states Minnesota is the 48th state in terms of a commitment rate. We commit about 46 people per 100,000 to our state prisons we have in our state prison system at any one given time. That's and that's number 48. There's only 2 2 states that have a lower commitment rate in the state of Minnesota. One is North Dakota and one is when dozens of New Hampshire small states, but Minnesota for the most part and the courts throughout the state have really looked for alternatives to incarceration and we have a number of things going in the state now. And I think that that that's good. We we have we have taken some pride in trying to only put those people into the system that that need to be in Correctional institutions are whole sentencing guidelines approach now has some bearing on this golf course and I suppose a lot of folks really don't understand how that works. But our whole sentencing practice has changed since May of 1980 and it's pretty well-defined. Now who goes to prison and who doesn't go to prison in terms of state prison system and how long they stay by the guy that guidelines and there's basically only two things that the courts can look at it this time. They can look at the severity of the offense and all offenses are kind of put on a scale of 1 to 10. And so they look at the severity of the offense and if it's a very serious offense, they go to prison on a first offense and the other thing the courts look at is the criminal history. So they look at the severity of the offense. Vince and the criminal history of the person who's convicted of the offense and it's on a basis of that that it's determined the courts are pretty well limited. There's some discretion but but there must be a very substantial reasons to depart from the guy that guidelines and that's a system that we're in now and by the way that can be argued both ways. Some people feel it's good some feel it's it's not good. But at least that's where we are right now. We have other listeners with questions for Jack young. Let's take our next caller. Go ahead, (00:33:50) please good afternoon. (00:33:53) Good (00:33:53) afternoon during your program very much. Thank you George Klein of Deephaven and I'm involved in criminal justice planning around the state. One of the jobs that I know of. The State Department of Corrections is to inspect and evaluate the physical condition of local jails in the 87 Minnesota counties and point out the shortcomings of either program or a physical facilities many of them. If not most around the state need expansion or Renovation now the question is with the notable lack of a strong Lobby for jails. What is the best way for a community to raise money for its tail improvements? I'm going to hang up and listen. (00:34:29) Well, maybe I should hang up and listen to me because I'm really I'm really in this thing. As you know, the department does have responsibilities were involved in standard setting for jails. We did put a jail plan together a couple of years ago in identified 23 counties that really were in trouble with their with their jails many of the communities went back in terms of bonding bonding issues in terms of local communities and some some communities were much more successful and others with the cutbacks that we've had Statewide. Now, the taxpayers are seeing their taxes their property taxes going going up and cutbacks and educational programs these kinds of things sometimes. The Jail's haven't been the most popular kinds of issues, but I will say however that even over the last couple years tremendous strides have been made in terms of improvement of our jails are jail situation in state of Minnesota. We have probably about 2,000 people in Minnesota and in jail and one place or another and anyone given D that's in addition to the couple thousand we have in our adult institutions. So we have for folks preda spread out in the Jail's but there's a tremendous difference in terms of the quality of these jails. And so it's a matter I guess a public public education the the as I mentioned before the courts have been involved in in terms of sitting can conditions of confinement the commissioner Actions has the authority to go to the district courts and attempt to cook condemned jails. It's been done seven different times and state but really our effort in the Department of Corrections is tried to work with local officials and local communities not in a threatening kind of way, but try to lay out with them plans that can be developed to improve the jails and I'm really pleased to see that the last three years since we identified these 23 counties by the large majority of them are moving ahead to make improvements in their local jails. Do you see the change in the DWI law is putting a lot of additional pressure on some of these County jails. Absolutely. I think in fact some of the bills that were introduced in the last session and we testified and some of those bills. We really don't have the capability in jails to handle the DWI cases. It's some folks at should be in jail. We we just don't Have the capability to do that in the last five years in the state of Minnesota are jail populations have increased about 62 percent and that's a tremendous increase. We have crowded conditions rights right here in the Twin City area in terms of Hennepin and Ramsey County Anoka County. It's on a Statewide basis. Our jail population is going up very very much and and we just we don't have the capability to take all the drunken drivers off and dump in jail. And I think that came came out during the last legislative session. We have more listeners with questions for commissioner young. Go ahead, please you're next (00:38:03) I have to Know if they have a program for people who've been arrested or put in jail for deep DWI. If they have a program for them to excuse me attend afterwards some type of class instruction explaining to them what the laws are pertaining to DWI after they've been convicted what can happen to them the next time and also what kind of program they have for rehabilitating people who have an alcoholic problem in the next thing was an article that I read this morning and the dispatch about women's shelters. I understand that there are 16 shelters in Minnesota, and I also understand that the same Paul Ramsay police chief does not feel that domestic assaults are serious crimes and being a victim of domestic assault this, you know upsets me, and I want to know what can be done about that. I'll hang up and listen. Thank you. (00:39:06) Terms of your of your first point about the DWI is that the Department of Corrections is such as really not that involved in that kind of an issue that's more local issue in terms of local courts, but I think you'll find that you go Statewide that that the courts are utilizing in many different ways treatment programs. They're doing Assessments in terms of trying to make it in an initial assessment in terms of the extent of someone having a chemical dependency problem. They're trying to encourage treatment where that's where that's appropriate. They're trying to work toward toward educational programs covering the kinds of things you're talking about. But those are issues. All those are local issues that are handled a little bit differently and all of the local courts throughout the state and in there is not at this. It is a uniform way of way of way of addressing that in terms of the of the battered women's shelter. I'm not familiar with the article that that you mention it was in this morning's paper, but I do, you know, if you know, there was an incident you're a couple of weeks ago in terms of someone breaking into a battered women's shelter and and and salting persons in that shelter. One of the very very tremendously important things is we've done work with this with the shelters around the state is they try and and and put themselves in a situation where everybody doesn't know where they are. They were they they certainly don't want publicity. There is the problem and occasionally there is a problem of people breaking into the shelters with each kinds of severed relationships that are going on between men and women, too. Eyes is the women and the children by the way the lots of children that end up in the in the battered women shelters. I guess. I'm not familiar with the quote that you're talking about. Somebody who is was it was against something. I I think that we've certainly found that the local law enforcement people are not only in the metro area, but out State have been extremely supportive of the concept of shelters and have worked with the shelters. And in terms of trying to protect the women that are that are housed in the Bob. Did I miss a point that she made there with the shelters. I think her her concern was that some public official was not concerned about the seriousness of domestic violence, and I don't know whether that's something you may respond to I guess, you know domestic violence is a from our standpoint is it course? It's been with us for many years, but I so much of it is being being identified now. It's it's a very frequent kind of a problem. It's a serious kind of a problem and and and I certainly am of the opinion that it's one that has to be constantly addressed by our Criminal Justice System. It's 15 minutes exactly before one o'clock Central Time Jack young with us Corrections Corrections commissioner for Minnesota. And we have another caller with a question. Go ahead (00:42:31) please I thank you. I'm calling from Minneapolis and I have two questions for commissioner. Number one. I'd like to know if since you've participated in the Minnesota sentencing guidelines commission for adults felons. I'd like to you to comment on the concept of dispositional guidelines for juveniles. And my second question is do you feel that privately run institutions for juveniles in the state such as the st. Croix camp or successful in treating juvenile offenders, and if so, why (00:42:57) Well your last question first I happen to feel I worked in the private sector of Corrections for a few years with a Wilder found foundation and and was involved in the establishment of the camp that you mentioned the st. Croix camp. And I happen to think that the private sector can do many things in the criminal justice system. And I was pleased to see the Wilder Foundation take a lead in that in this in in this community. I think there's much the public that the private sector can can can do that happens to be a short-term basically kind of a 90-day program for for youngsters for boys and girls there's two camps. They operate up around Sandstone for those from the greater Metropolitan Metropolitan st. Paul area. I think it's a I think it's a tremendous program and I would like to come across ways and develop ways with the It's sector that the private sector can do more things in criminal justice system and I would take my head off to the Wilder foundation for what they've done to date in terms of juvenile dispositional guidelines. I was and have been an am a member of the sentencing guidelines commissioned by the way, the sentencing guidelines commission was not given the responsibility by the legislature to determine if there should be guidelines the legislature with only one dissenting vote said there should be guidelines and develop them and the commission has worked hard to come up with guidelines that what they what would appear to be fair and Equitable or not and they're not perfect. Perfect. I keep saying there's no such thing as perfect Justice and I think the guidelines will prove that but the past practice and the what went on before wasn't all that perfect perfect either. So I have problems with parts of the guidelines the inflexibility of it the difficulty that the courts have in departing from the guy guidelines and but But the guidelines commission is working on that. They just met yesterday. In fact trying to address some of the concerns that some of the folks have in terms of juvenile dispositional guidelines. I'm totally opposed to them. What does that mean base? Basically as I indicated before the sentencing guidelines concept is that when someone comes before the court the court can look at two things the severity of the offense and the second thing criminal history and I think when you're dealing with youngsters in the juvenile system that the that you need to have a more individualized approach the the it's a much to computerized mechanical approach to look at a chart and here's a youngster and this is what he's before the court for and this is what he's done before. In fact, there's some language in our in our Minnesota law that says the court is to take into consideration the language to escapes me now, but something about the an Lives to Pro Chand the end and then and to take into consideration the unique needs of children. And I don't think that a juvenile court judge can look to a grid sheet and it and from that determine what's best for an individual child and what's best for the community. I certainly think that that dispositional guidelines for Jules. I know there's efforts made in that direction one of the Committees of the legislature the house criminal justice committee is expressed some interest in that I think at the next session the legislature they're going to be looking at that that issue and I for one feel that it's it's moving in a direction. It's contrary to the best best interests of children that in this state and I think it's not in the best interest of the public there are complaints from some legislators that the guidelines themselves. Not strict enough that for example a person does not get sent to jail does not serve jail time for home burglary. For example for the first two or three year so convictions. What is your feeling generally about the guidelines and their severity are they strict enough? Well, it's interesting Bob because we see actually I see some folks going to prison now under the guidelines that I think under the old system would not have gone to prison and maybe could have been dealt with more effectively in the community. Then they could have going to prison on the other hand. I see Folks at that are not going to prison that under the old system would have gone to prison it in these This falls in the basket that you're talking about. So, I think it's when you're when you're trying to Up with the grid and I have before me and Bob sees it he regretted who goes in the lion and if it's a very difficult thing the the there are those who feel the guidelines don't send enough people to prison. There are those who feel they did that they send to 222 many to prison I would and I would say that right now we're right now in terms of totals. There's just about the same number that are going to prison under the guidelines then went to prison before the guidelines, but you're seeing you're seeing different kinds of people go to prison. We're seeing more person offenders go to prison and more more property offenders staying out outside of prison the ratio and prison used to be about 60 percent property offenders were in prison and 40% were there for crimes against person now, there's been a pretty much of a flip-flop in there. We've got about 60% of those who are convicted. Of crimes against the person are in prison and proper more property offenders are outside the prison and that basically was the intent of the guidelines one of the problems that were the concerns you here is that the persistent property offender the persistent property friend who goes out and does This Thing time and again that he he more likely would be expected to be handled in the community. But at the same time the courts do have it that doesn't mean that he walks off scot-free the courts can can require that he spend time in jail or in the workhouse or things of that nature, but there are the the persistent property offenders that that I think are gnawing at people that are still out in the community. By the way, the sentencing guidelines commission at the present time is addressing the burglary issue at their meeting yesterday afternoon, they spend time on that and they are going to be taking public testimony in the next. Several weeks in terms of this issue of burglary of residences as well as other kinds of rigor burglary. I think it's an issue that hits close to the heart of people when their home is burglarized and that's what they what they're interested in taking another look at. Well, we have more people with questions for the commissioner. So let's move along to our next caller. Go ahead please you're on the air. (00:50:26) Yeah, two questions. I you talked about increased burden from the mandatory DWI incarcerations, and I was wondering if you could suggest alternatives to incarceration that would shift more of the burden from the taxpayer to the offender. And also I was wondering if there's any correlation between the return rate and the severity of the economic Times. (00:50:49) Well, I think that for the most part in terms of your last Quest question and I see it as the first part the Department of Corrections is not that closely involved in the whole DWI issue. That's it court level that we are not that closely working with but I'm certainly concerned about in terms of the The last appointing me to ask about the well whether bad economic difficulty anomic times sure I missed a greater right I should have been writing that down. I wasn't you know over the years. I think it's very clear. There's a close tie in with with hard times and crime and the more economic hard times that we have. The crime rates go up and that is that is gone on in our country for years. It's been true. Nationally. It's been true local locally and I have said before I have great concerned about what's going to happen and in our local scene in our state seen with the cutbacks in certain kinds of dollars and social programming and I talked to Mike my counterpart several months ago in the state of Michigan who was talking about the tremendous number of blacks young blacks that were employed in the Ceta program and they'll see the dollars were going and how many of these would be. Unemployed they become frustrated. They become they become death desperate in in you have all kinds of problems problems. So I certainly think that it's just common sense that there is a close tie a tie in with economic hard times and crime crime rates. And I think we will see that in this country in the next couple of years until things get turned around. Maybe they get turned around sooner than that. I hope so too the people who consider parole think about that as they as they talk about releasing people and think maybe well we have difficult times not might be better to keep these folks incarcerated for a while longer. No, I don't think so Bob. I think they think Proline authorities for the most part feel when someone is the opportunity to go out and seems ready to go out, you know over the years. In fact in recent years the are our Minnesota Corrections board, which goes out of business on the first of July, but it has made a judgment when someone came in looking at their criminal history and Problems they were involved in how long they should stay and I don't think that's a factor that that paroling authorities have ever looked at and I really don't think it really would be fair to look at that. I think that when the time has come that they've earned their way out they should probably be able to go out. I think one of the very important functions of parole agents over the years has been to try and assist persons leaving prison to try and help them get employment. We don't have a great deal of time left, but we have a couple collars would see if we can fit them in before we're done. Go ahead please you're (00:53:42) next. Yes, just a real briefly pie. And I think there would be real helpful. Even for commissioner younger, which I sure ask God to bless him and even yourself and if our country would do away with our breweries, it was certainly help a lot of fellows that get to their first offense is off the alcohol because I know the stuff myself. All right. Thank you very much. If more people will get to know that this demonic oppression will seen on the world that much of this is demonic oppression and also demonic possession. The devil demons are out the Flyers, right? Thank you very much for calling. We (00:54:28) appreciate hearing from you. This know we have another caller quickly. Can we we do not. All right. Well Jack, I guess we don't have time to take any more calls. I'd be curious in the minute or two that we have remaining if you could Tell me one of your favorite anecdotes, I guess as a man who had spent a lot of time in the field as a warden at Stillwater and Superintendent at st. Cloud. Were there any particular one or two things that really stood out in your mind. Well, Bob, I guess we've been a lot of things is just it out of my mind. I you know, I think the thing that did always leaves an impression on me is a folks that you see out in the community that kind of get back in touch with you you might see them on the street. It's sometimes over the holidays will get Doug a telephone call from somebody that had been in the system at one time I think to to see people and I'm not claiming that everybody gets out and is law-abiding and his sister so successful, but I think to see people who have been in the system who have gone out and been able to turn their lives around. I think that's the most thing in terms of some anecdote that went on the I have gone through a number of situations that the institutions that are where I've been Warden where we've had where we've had hostages or we've had gun smuggled in where we've had difficult things are going on. We've had demonstrations, you know back in the 60s. It was those were tough times. They were lots of problems in the college's they were problems in the institutions. So I think putting all those things together I can see that the criminal justice system has been a very active place to be and I have and I very much enjoyed at the years. I've been in it. Well, thank you very much commissioner Jack Young from the Minnesota Corrections Department. Appreciate your spending your Saturday noon with us today.