Good afternoon, and welcome to another in a series of science Town meetings. I reach deep in your host for this science town meeting which is a joint production of the Science Museum of Minnesota and Minnesota Public Radio and which is being broadcast live from the Arts and Science Center Auditorium in downtown Saint Paul. The science Town meetings are presented in park with funds provided by the Medtronic Foundation. It is colorless and for many people odorless and tasteless it is present in everything from shelves in kitchen cupboards to foam insulation in walls from cigarette smoke to perfume and it can be a serious threat to one's physical and mental health. The it that I'm talking about is formaldehyde and over the past few years. It's been linked to a wide variety of health problems ranging from relatively minor watery eyes to mental retardation indeed in some cases. It has forced people to give up their home in order to get relief. Our Guest today Bruce mall has had personal experience with indoor chemical pollution if forced him and his family to build a specially-designed home just outside Toronto in order to escape such pollution. It has also prompted. Mr. Small who is an environmental engineer to write a book about chemical indoor pollution and ways to avoid it the title of that book is Sunny Hill Health story of the 80s Bruce small is also active in an organization called suffer which stands for save us from formaldehyde environmental repercussions what? You're welcome, please mr. Bruce Smalls. He addresses the topic indoor pollution home deadly home. So thank you Rick. If there's anything I've learned in the last couple of years. It's an indoor air pollution is a universal kind of problem and I got to speak to you today. And how does it not as a Canadian coming across the border but just as another fellow human being struggling with something that seems to be happening almost everywhere. That what I want to do and I'm going to touch on formaldehyde to but I think we have to step back and look at indoor air pollution in general and I'd like to get as brought an overview as we can and then go into the details and see how it applies to formaldehyde and and foam insulation and other specifics. If there's one message, I'm trying to get across today. It's a very simple one and that is a indoor air pollution is causing significant health problems. It is not something that we can avoid something that we can ignore something that is going to go away it is causing serious and significant health problems and up until now and I suspect for the next several years that the magnitude and importance of this problem will continue to be underestimated. We are we have an inkling a hint suggestion from all the data coming in that perhaps many millions of people may be at risk. Although we need a lot more research to find out exactly who and how much risk is involved. So far with with many chemicals and many health problems. The focus has been cancer and I think for many many years or medical establishment has focused on cancer as the as perhaps the one and only determinant as to whether certain chemicals can be a problem and we are only now just learning how for lacious this point of you can be We're not talking about just cancer. We're talking about all forms of illness. We're talking about everything from Fairly minor symptoms which may impair your ability to think during the day to full-blown illnesses, which may rob you of your career of your family. And in fact has robbed some people of their lives. I think we have to get away from the idea that it's only when you did that it's important. It's the traffic accident philosophy where I'm sure it happens everywhere that usually the the changes to intersections that are dangerous only happen after we lost some people this has has been happening in the formaldehyde situation, but I think it's time we started looking at house in the broader picture that they were looking not just for Staying Alive. We're looking for good health. We're looking for being able to think being able to have all our mental faculties working at 100% capacity. We're looking to try to have children who are able to use everything that they were born with and we're not just out just to barely stay alive. What is new in this field? We've all heard that some people may be getting killed. But one thing that has not come out yet. Is the fact that there is a a form of illness or a former, what would cause a syndrome a set of symptoms that are happening tomorrow and more people that have not been hitherto recognized by the medical profession in general. There are now some researchers that are learning about it. Some of that have reported in the literature many people have been affected by it. But really not enough information to know I'm going to use the words over the broadcast widespread chemical susceptibility. That's a bit of a mouthful what it really means. Is it as a consequence of being exposed to flu shyn some people's bodies begin to lose their tolerance to the kinds of pollution that we are normally exposed to and that means that for example, someone could become sensitive to one particular material something that they are exposed to at work something like formaldehyde that they're exposed to at home. And then gradually over time their body begins to react they begin to get it all when they're exposed to other chemicals. Some of them highly closely related some of them not as closely related. And as this spreading the spreading phenomenon increases we end up with people who are so highly sensitive to chemicals that they can barely go out. They can barely go to work. They can barely stand the kind of normal exposures that we always get the tobacco smoke and perfume Auto exhaustion have pretty well become a normal part of everyday City Life or the kinds of exposures you make it on the farm. The pesticides exposures the various other chemicals used on the farm people get into a state where they can no longer tolerate these levels. Now this is a is one specific example of a kind of disease that can be caused by exposure to chemicals and we're finding that it is possibly one of the most significant because it encompasses many other symptoms. Here were talking about an illness that may last a lifetime. The tolerance appears in this this again is speculation on the part of the Physicians for dealing with it. But tolerance appears to be limited that we're all born with a certain limit. Some of it. Some of us can blow it early in life by it by going through a lot of toxic exposures. Some of us may last a lifetime and and still be able to absorb what were exposed to but by and large we've all got a limit as some people have a lower limit than others and incidents like being exposed to large amounts of formaldehyde and homes are being exposed to large amounts of industrial chemicals at work can sap this tolerance. This this limit Write down to zero and from that point on the person may be quite l. I talked a bit about formaldehyde. I I am here partly because if just finished completing a study for the national research Council of Canada, the building research division, there has been extremely concerned about what formaldehyde situation as you may know Canada has banned the urea formaldehyde foam insulation. We're now in the process of trying to figure out what to do with the people who have been exposed to and whose homes are still filled with it. The national research Council decided to commission the study to find out what connection there was between the effects of urea formaldehyde foam and this problem of widespread chemical susceptibility. I'll go into the details. I was going more at the end of The Talk. But essentially what we have found is that there are many Physicians reporting that formaldehyde is a trigger agent. That this can precipitate a widespread chemical susceptibility that someone who it who has symptoms as a result of the exposure may not just be sick while they're in the phone who exposed to formaldehyde they may be sick afterwards when they're in other places and it is not just because formaldehyde exist in many other products, but because they have been sensitized they have become sensitive to many many other products and this I think is a serious consequence. We don't know yet how many people have been affected this way or how many people may be affected we do know however that some of the Physicians who have been dealing with his with his problem have reported that people who have no previous history of trouble no history of allergy or asthma or any other kind of respiratory sensitivity. No apparent family history of the same elements. They can also be hit and not just with a sensitivity to formaldehyde but a full-blown widespread chemical susceptibility. One of the reasons National research Council has been involved in this is because it does affect how people will adjust their homes. Once they decide if they do that they wish to reduce the formaldehyde levels. When someone has become sensitive the other chemicals, it is extremely crucial that they take great care in choosing the materials. They then want to replace their old materials with if they decide to remove foam insulation. It is extremely important that they get together with their physician and through a series of tests and and taking very careful histories determine whether there are other materials now that may constitute a problem weather. In fact, they could introduce a paint with a fungicide or other building materials that contain formaldehyde or or any other chemical it is okay Icing at a significant rain. My personal view of course after going through extensive literature on the subject and because of her experience with sing just what this widespread chemical susceptibility can do to people and can do the families. It can literally destroy lives. I am personally convinced uffi is not a product. That should be in any home. And then it would it really warms my heart to see more more agencies around the world looking seriously at a ban on this kind of thing. We'll come back to that in a little more detail after we go into a prospective cuz I think we really have to understand what we're dealing with. A lot of people I talked to have said this is all very new isn't it? I never really heard of this before. No one has no one has ever mentioned formaldehyde before no one has ever mention people being sensitive or or allergic to any other materials. What what's it all about? Why are we just discovering it now? In fact this problem may have been around for a long time. And I think that there are a lot of errors in our thinking or our assumptions that have led us to to ignore a truck for quite a while. Why on Earth didn't people know about it 20 years ago when in fact some people did there were a few researchers than if you go back in the literature that new and they in the 40s and 50s that many people were getting sick from exposures. For example, the gas fumes and in natural gas-fueled homes from fumes from gas ranges and other household. We find lately that things like pesticides and herbicides are involved. And one of the reasons that this has not come to the fore is it a lot of these chemicals have only been used in large quantities within the last 20 years 20 or 30 years since the war. and really the previous generation was not exposed to the same magnitude during their early years as the latest generation is the other thing is that we just haven't learned how the world Works know. I started really realizing I have a background in physics and it it was a little easier for me to take one when I learned some of the objects around me actually gave off gas. But this is it apparently is not part of our school system do to train children to understand that virtually every object object. I deal with is made up of atoms and molecules and all kinds of different substances and at the surfaces of these these materials these objects around in the chairs are sitting on or the drapes that are on the windows or the rug on the floor at the surface some of these molecules come loose. They come off or if there are gases embedded in the materials these gases migrate to get out of the materials and I get into the air and for some people this is over. This is a revelation but this is essentially what we talk about when we talk about smell. Everyone knows what smell is they? Could they know that it's something they have an odor or a fragrance or a perfume but we we understand are we sense of smell by the molecules of those objects of those substances getting into our noses? Getting into our system. So if we can smell things we can understand very clearly that gases come off of objects and I get into the air and then they get into us that way we don't have to take it much farther to do some testing and find out whether any of these smells or these orders are actually affecting people. One of the reasons why people haven't really gathered enough date on this is it the effects on people are are very much confused. If you're in a room that has about 75 different things 75 different smells all mingled together a little bit of tobacco smoke a little bit of perfume a little bit of odor of plastic and a little bit of outdoor pollution just a little bit of everything is very very hard to tell what one particular chemical is doing someone out there have been some very Innovative physicians in the United States who have done work on what we call environmental clinics and this is just the simplest Concept in the world and I thought it was a little bit Daft when I first heard it, but someone said just put someone in clean are there Health Mate and prove so with environmental Clinic concept a physician will take a person whose health is suspected to be affected by chemicals. El Porton in clean air for. Maybe up to two weeks 3 weeks and monitor everything find out whether the blood levels change of various substances weather there symptoms decrease where they still have headaches that they watch them like Hawks and what they've been finding they follow this by the way by a. Where they actually exposed person one by one to the chemicals that they suspect may be involved and out of the date is coming bit by bit slowly, but surely the fact that a lot of these little chemical chemical exposures that we have everyday low as they maybe they're affecting some people with some people are making them really quite ill Let's go on a wider perspective of the other reason it's becoming more to the four is it was in The Last 5 Years, everyone has been concerned with energy and the reaction to energy has been let's tighten up the house. Let's talk every seam in the house. Let's make sure we don't get any air leaking through where we don't want it let stuff it full of insulation and let's make sure we just don't lose any of that energy that we have to pay so much for now. No, I want to make it absolutely clear that there is no way in the world that I'm against energy conservation, but the data is starting to show that a lot of these problems with health and indoor pollution have Arisen after we've tried to seal up the houses and it's again, it's a very simple concept when you were when you look at it and you kind of wonder whether all these scientists working on it have been a little bit blind for a while. But if you have a house that has a few things in it that cause pollution And I don't particularly bother you when there's a fair amount of air flowing through the house. What's going to happen to you when you seal it out? And in fact predictable as it may seem when you see you left the house the pollution does accumulate and again predictable as it may seem when you sealed up it accumulates and it starts to affect people. So the concepts are very simple. I have found we we make it time in the question. Afterwards to 2 to go further into this but there are many ways where we can make energy conservation perfectly compatible with clean air, but it's going to take some very careful design and we've seen situations where even in it in a modern solar home where someone may be made Sick by the kind of pollutants that are gathered as air flows over a painted panel so we can see that there's a lot of precautions are going to have to take but I'm sure that in North America and around the world is enough Ingenuity abounding that we can solve some of these problems quite easily. Four houses in particular, I think we really gone we may be finding that we were backwards in designing them and as an engineer, I can admit stupidity on this and we thought to see the key to the solution was to tighten up a hose just don't get rid of any of the energy that you've got. Don't even get rid of the air. But in fact we may find as time goes on at houses would be better designed when I when I have a lot of air flowing through them. But here we have to be a little bit more clever and and see whether we can capture back some of the energy if you're going to get rid of some of the air that you that that's being used in the house will use what they call a heat exchanger and bring back some of the energy that we said we would have otherwise I'd lost. So I think this is possible again. I don't think that many people are taking it. Seriously that just how much you can increase the pollution that house if you close it up and how much can it can affect people. I don't see much interest yet Among The Architects and in Canada and end from the from the look in the smell of many of the buildings that I've been in the United States. It really hasn't caught on here either and I think it's about time that we got our design professionals all the Architects and Engineers who are controlling up buildings to understand and same time the government officials in the politicians if they really understood the magnitude of the problem what it means and what it cost. I think you'd see some action. It's very curious that and perhaps this is a reflection on both our economies and counted in the United States that actions started to come about when people started to sue. And we're finding the end of this individual companies who have for example of being involved in certain types of insulation government departments. For example in Canada. There are people who are trying to sue the Canadian government for having recommended certain types of insulation as part of the energy conservation program. And we're finding that the more people are willing to do to put themselves in the line and say look you people were involved in the damage know you better pay for it that this has started people looking and under the officials are starting to take notice. We haven't yet reached the medical profession. I don't think I'll lo I supposed lawsuits are involved there. We may yet get them to notice. As soon as we start hitting the business Community as soon as they begin to understand what they're losing and productivity. I think all of a sudden will see some massive changes in the design of buildings. It was one estimate in Auto all the Canadian government. Unfortunately has been innocent saddled with a building built by a private developer and rent it to the government that Appears to have caused illness and about 2,000 out of 6,000 employees. And in in this particular situation, one of the officials had estimated that they may have lost already in productivity the entire cost of the building. So we're talking about something that is in the hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of productivity. And one of the reasons I think we have to step back and just say what are we talking about in terms of symptoms? I say it affects productivity, but but went when you really look at that that what that means is it some people that are affected by low levels may fall asleep after lunch. Or they make it so weird about that. They can no longer deal with their co-workers or they may lose time off work. They may not they may be sick several days a week or several days a month. So we're talking a whole range of symptoms that it did affect people both their productivity and and just their physical well-being. It might be a good idea just to go over some of the symptoms because the other thing I found is that most people say what really doesn't affect me. But tell you you said you're highly sensitive to chemicals and our family happens to be but it just doesn't affect me at all. Then. I start going through the symptoms and we see whether or not people have enough experience to recognize that they may be affected. And again, I have to caution. I'm reading I will read a number of symptoms. It does not mean that all of these symptoms are caused by chemical pollution. It only means that the Physicians dealing with it have reported that they do that at least these symptoms have been caused in some people by chemical contaminants. They range everywhere from joint pains of all kinds swelling and redness skin irritations to head pains fatigue General heaviness and sleepiness yawning falling asleep in in meeting rooms. It can it can affect people's balance. It can affect their their temperature regulation many people recognize that they may feel either very very chilly are very hot after a meal or in a different place. It can affect people's all of their people. I think I recognize that is too has affect people's nose and eyes and ears and throat that they recognize stinging of the eyes and so on when they get heavy pollution, they don't as often recognized that it could affect muscles or speech coordination or comprehension or they could have checked mood said that we found us some exposures will cause people to become extremely depressed. I on the other hand we make we find that it goes in the other direction as well as some of you may have heard of Physicians talking about type A and type B Behavior. This is something they started doing that when I talked about people having heart attacks and you get this image of someone who is prone to heart attacks being a very high-strung tried time driven anxious irritable kind of person. All this is they have identified to the syndrome of the symptoms, but they have not identified is that in many cases those same symptoms in those same people can be precipitated by a chemical exposure. How with particularly with children that can affect their learning ability and I think it can affect them very seriously to the point where we have seen cases where children have been diagnosed as having permanent learning disabilities permanent brain damage when in fact what they're suffering from is it is in a sense a chronic low-level poisoning. It turns out in many of these cases to be highly reverse and these children who are having trouble with learning disabilities can in fact in the right atmosphere with the right food with the right exposures with the with some good clean air. They can again become normal yet. We are branding them and as as permanently disabled we are labeling the most stupid in a sense. We are pouring all kinds of special education upon them, but we may be looking at a very simple physical problem. There is some excellent research relating the chemical exposures to heart disease some various some double-blinded study switch have shown that some incidents. And again, we only have enough evidence to show that happens in some cases that exposure to formaldehyde to pesticides to chlorine to other very common household things can trigger heart arrhythmias. That's a situation where the the the rhythm of the heart changes drastically and Ed put someone in Jeopardy of going into into a complete stoppage so we can see that the symptoms are wide and and really the Physicians are are placed in a very difficult position because no know when we understand the many many of these symptoms can be caused by so many different things the same symptoms. Come can be shown as a cause of food allergy. For example, they can't some of these can come out as a cause of as a as a result of malnutrition what we're really saying to the Physicians is a decision before we're going to have to look to all kinds of different. Causes and we can no longer look at people and say I don't understand why you got a headache there for you must have made it up. We can no longer say that two people confidently because there are so many possible causes that we really have to look at them in detail. Let's look at the consequences again. I said that it affected productivity. Now. This is on the minds of everybody in Canada and United States that were in a very very tight economic situation and we're trying to get everything we can out of people get here. We do it we stuff them into buildings that have very little air flow. We fill the buildings with a lot of pollution sources and we expect them to think and what disturbs me. I don't know how many other people have thought of it. But I worry about the high places, they the Senate chambers and so on of the world the back rooms were all of the decisions are being made the boardrooms where the smoke is laying thick over the table and if this is affecting people's thinking ability, what kind of decisions are running a country's I think we really have to be careful and and understand fully What are you doing two people's minds? Now what's going on Environmental Policy the what I told you today takes us into a new era now. I can't claim to have done that single-handedly. This information has been around for a long time. What I'm trying to do is bring it to people's attention that chemical susceptibility is a condition that makes people sensitive to environmental pollution at levels which are which are generally far below those that have been accepted as safe. And that means that we may have to rethink all the environmental policies in both countries. We may have to look again at acid rain and say what kind of levels of pollution are we talking about? When we say that a large call the pollution moves from one city over another area. We have to start seeing other people that are under that cloud who may be affected. Not at the standard levels is toxicologist have told told us about but at lower levels because they've already been sensitized by some other means they've already been in a home that has been so polluted that they've lost their tolerance now, I think this I can't claim that that we in Canada or any farther ahead. I think it's weed. We have just gone through a. Of relying on assumptions that were not correct and we just have to get enough for search to know what assumptions we should go on and we have to start changing our policies. Tell let's get positive. This all sounds terrible. And then after you think of the symptoms, you can think of instances yourself or in the family or down the street where someone could easily have been affected you start to wonder whether the fastest I'd you're using on the farm or the insulation in your home is causing you a problem or whether they the difficulties your child is having a school somehow coincide with something that's happened in the home. What can we do about it? Well, fortunately this is one of the most paradoxical situations I've ever come across because we have a situation. We're in both countries. We have growing levels of pollution. We have a tendency to more than and greater pelicula proliferation of products in the home that they give off various products various perfumes and fungicides and an installations that may give off gases. So things things appear to be getting worse than you think. I know those situations that then what I'm really crying is doom and it will never get out of all of this. But in fact the positive side of the evidence is that when you take people and put them in air that is cleaner not totally clean, but at least better that often times that their symptoms and prove that their health doesn't prove that they begin to feel better than in some cases than I've ever felt before in their lives. So in fact, there's a lot that can be done in a lot of Hope and it's just a matter of getting up and doing it that people have to understand that all our health problems are not psychosomatic that they needn't accept that kind of it of a decision when the doctor tells them that they can't find anything wrong. Therefore they made it up. What we need is about 200 million people doing experiments and if we can't spare the other professionals to work on it, then let's work on it ourselves because it's not difficult for someone to go go back to their mind and correlate for example in the case of the formaldehyde and I'll come to that whether or not their health problems and those of their family did coincide to the time when they had the insulation put into their homes or whether it did coincide with Renovations where they've introduced new materials and it is not difficult for them to set up their own test so that they can expose themselves to the same levels. They would have been exposed to say if they bring in a new building material but observe themselves more carefully and when people start to look at this and then say look I have to I can't just ignore these symptoms anymore. I got to figure out what caused them. I think we'll find many many people from all walks of life going to the legislators going to the doctor's going to The Architects in the engineer and saying look I've seen it happen. I'm not going to put up with it. Let's do something about it. What can we do to prevent all this in general? We're talking about a fairly small level of the population who have been really hard hit and by hard-hit. I mean really hit because they the kind of horror stories that we have seen from the the not just the cases of urea formaldehyde phone, but many many other situations where people have been exposed are just beyond imagine. Peace. Some people have gone through absolute hell some have lost their their their careers. They may be totally disabled some have lost their families. It has been really difficult. So surely it must be important to the rest of the people who have not yet been hard-hit to learn how to prevent it and it turns out not to be difficult. Because in general if we know that there's a danger of being over polluted taking in too much of our surroundings then all we have to do is make some precautions. It's not very difficult to when you're shopping for furniture to begin to to ask yourself. Well, here's two pieces of furniture that I like which one pollutes the least which one will affect my health the least Which Wich home which mobile home which which way of building which which product which route to drive to work which will give me the least pollution if I have a choice, can I take the low pollution root and preserve my tolerance if I if I think of my tolerance is a non-renewable resource, how can how can I save that? Because I know as I get older and 10 years and twenty years down the pike. I'm not going to be want to be confined to a room because I can't stand the exposures anywhere else or that they had become highly sensitive. Tobacco smoking perfume and so on. So there's a lot of people can do and I think we just generally have to start saying look we don't want to take in too much of the stuff that may be affecting our health. We would rather err on the side of caution until we really have done enough for search to know what's going on. How much let's look back? I'm going to take a couple of minutes and go just specifically into the urea formaldehyde situation because that's the one that I've done most work on recently. We've established this morning that there are some people who are chemically susceptible in this means that they've they've reached the point where low levels of chemicals in their environment may make them sick the doctors that I've contacted and the literature that we've gone through indicates that these people who are already sensitive. Are probably the easiest in the first hit if they're exposed to some massive pollutant such as you may get in a urea-formaldehyde phone home. So these people are already primed in a sense. They're the first ones to go. They become the canaries in The Mineshaft and they're coping pretty well on their own as it is, but if you give them one big dose of anything, they may go over the edge. So the doctors that we contacted advice and it's important to know who is already sensitive and that their Physicians advise them to keep their exposure way down and these are the people who may be at most risk right now if they're exposed to tie levels of formaldehyde. We haven't got a clue how many people are involved. This is one thing that there is not enough for search in this area. And we desperately need more work. We have some estimates on the basis of some Physicians that we're talking maybe at least 10 or 20% of the population. But again, the work hasn't been done to prove that. We know that it is possible to identify who is already chemically sensitive. And this I think is the Saving Grace that we can do experiments on people we can put them through test. We can find out if there if they're one of these people who may be at more risk and then we can help them avoid what may what may then deteriorate their health? So it is it is it is a very easy route to follow. We just start looking and see what we can find. We did find people some people who are exposed to formaldehyde in the urea formaldehyde foam insulation houses have since the exposure develop to sensitivity. The pattern seems to be that if they are to develop it at all. They develop it first to formaldehyde which means it upon exposure to formaldehyde anywhere. They may exhibit symptoms. They may feel sick. But gradually the spreading phenomenon seems to take over and for those people who are 10 to get sensitive than this spreads rapidly and after a while they'll be sensitive not just a formaldehyde but the low levels of automobile exhaust perfume. Tobacco smoke outgassing from very simple foam padding and furniture from synthetic materials. From all of the soft Plastics and vinyls from the odors from gas and oil heating furnaces the odors from gas stoves and the list just goes on and on and on and some of these people were talking reactions in the parts per trillion range, really really low levels of exposure. I think it's it's important for these people to realize that. They may not be at risk no matter what they use and I have to take great care. The one thing that really surprised me as I went through the research and talked to the doctors is that we have also a small group of people who have had no health problems previously For Whom the formaldehyde was strong enough to precipitate this full-blown sensitivity as this as if they had been severe asthmatics are allergic people all our lives so weak. We have no idea who's at risk because we can't look at someone in the end in any of these homes and say well look you've already got a few problems there for a year at risk and you who don't have symptoms and I've never had any symptoms you're not at risk. This just doesn't seem to be the case. We just there are some people who will develop a sensitivity and we don't know how many or who So that the degree of risk will depend on you and you and you alone depends how many sensitivities you have if you have any and and what kind of exposures you have in your life whether you if you have very few exposures, you may tolerate more than someone who has to go to work in and taking a lot of chemical contamination everyday. It looks like reducing the formaldehyde levels as much as possible is inadvisable route to go for almost anyone. And in fact, what we really have to do is get people's Physicians together with people who may be affected and have them decide. Just what the risks are. It's not something that anyone in National research Council or anyone in any of your Commissions in a year in the United States can say that everyone should follow the same route the sensitivities become very individual and we need the medical profession involved to determine the extent of the problem. Now if people have acquired the sensitivity once they're in this boat where they become sensitive to everything and then we're talking almost a new lifestyle where she were saying the only thing the Physicians dealing with this has come up with for sure is that they'll be better if they get clean air? So we're thinking as well as a preventative. Maybe we should be looking at clean air for everybody because we just have no idea what kind of benefits that might bring until we start experimenting and getting some clean buildings and clean houses and just seeing how well people could Thrive and clean are we really don't know all the answers. So I think I wasn't what I really leave you with today is a lot of questions and we are hoping and this is one of the purposes of the national research Council commissioning the study. They did is we're hoping that people will come forward with their experience that we we admit that the data is Slim we do not know what is going on. We do not know how many people are affected this way. All we know is that it is happening. And in fact, we we have to hear back from everyone else to see how much it is happening and what we can do about it. I think at this point, we got a pass back at to our hosts for questions and we can get into the other issues. Thank you very much. Mr. Small. I want to invite to all of you here in the audience at the science center Auditorium the two who have questions to come up to the microphone. But before we take our first question, we have a couple of guests in the audience in the before I introduce them. I should explain the I suppose in part why they're here. Most of you are familiar with the ABC television program news magazine that called a 20/20 and some of you may know too that a week ago last night to The 20/20 are to report on urea formaldehyde foam insulation and formaldehyde pollution in general indoors and a during that program. They came to Minnesota. They came to some apartments in Suburban Minneapolis at where there had been a problem with particle board shelves and visited with some people who had to have problems and they also during that report they spoke of ways that Individuals who think they might have some symptoms might be suffering from formaldehyde the pollution in their homes how they might be able to find out to what the levels that you if any of this formaldehyde were in their homes and there are a couple of different ways in Minnesota that you can do that and I want is to engage a private firm since they State Health Department. No longer has money for that kind of testing another way is to purchase a little love device that is probably about the size of a silver dollar that's manufactured by the 3M Company. And the reason that we mention that to is because the 3M and ABC have received an excessive 40,000 telephone calls in the last week since the program on formaldehyde was was aired inquiring about these devices and we have a couple of gentlemen in the audience from 3M who were involved in the development of the monitoring device and also who have been paying considerable attention to formaldehyde The past couple of years dr. Leon Anders and the mister John Pendergrass and I wonder if gentlemen of one or both of you have some things to might like to add specifically about the formaldehyde and what Mr. Small has said about your own research and the experience with the of the chemical. Dr. Anders formaldehyde monitor that has been developed is merely a one of a series of products that 3ml developed over the number of years two major chemical contaminants in the are primarily for the industrial worker to be worn during his work shift. So they can assess the chemical tablets that he's exposed to at that time because of the recent interest in formaldehyde and living quarters. We have been made aware that there's a need to measure chemical contaminants in the home primarily formaldehyde and we have made this sampling device available to do the consumer so that he can by measuring the Formaldehyde levels in his home by taking an air sample and sending it to the laboratory for analysis, which then he has a report that he can then consult his position with or the State Health Department to determine if he has high levels in his home in excess of what normally should be there and might be hazardous than through his help. I understand it to the state has set Minnesota's is one of the few states that set up a level above which there should be cause for concern. I wonder if if either or both of you might speak to that briefly. We were talking to the State Health Department the last couple of days I forget just the terminology that they would prefer us to use. I don't think it has been set yet. It is a proposed level that they're looking at 0.4 parts per million. Okay, and I understand that some there's a range in the in the number of parts per million that the different the individuals or States including a Building Trades industry think is a is a just one the set. I only got a very controversial issue right now is being discussed at various levels of government and consumer. Groups to determine just what is the acceptable level? It's as it's been pointed out previous history has been Limited in there for what are the health effects of various levels is yet to be determined in regard to that. That's my understanding that the consumer product safety Commission in Washington last week began the deliberation on whether or not to ban uffi or urea from formaldehyde foam insulation. And the that the decision that is expected on now or about February 22nd part of me later this month and so we may find out whether America Falls Canada on Banning it or whether it will continue to be sold. So small you have something to say as controversial one and and I think we're caught in a situation where a lot of people have or they're being forced to make decisions on levels before they anywhere near enough scientific information is coming in. Some of the committee's reviewing it in Canada have just come down saying that they do not have enough information to determine a safe level and that no safe level can yet be determined we found it at least several cases where levels of .0 7.08 parts per million seem to be contributing to this widespread chemical sensitivity and and actually act that formaldehyde at that level on some people could act as a trigger agency. The variability there is tremendous and I think we really have to to avoid looking for Simple Solutions just that the just pegging a level is going to solve anything. I don't really think it will. Anybody have questions you're most welcome to come up to the microphone, I guess so you a question. Go ahead, please. I'm delighted to be here at turns out that I'm one of those people about eight years ago. I woke up one morning feeling like I had a hangover. Although I had nothing to consume the previous evening. I had a headache I was light-headed I couldn't concentrate and I was depressed and that those symptoms have stayed with me along with things like ringing in ears, which I acquired about a year later and after visits to six or seven positions and upwards of $1,000 of various neurological tests. And so on. I got the same kind of answers that's in your head and it wasn't until this Summer that I found a chiropractor who practiced applied Kinesiology and he looked at me and he said you're toxic. And these three start exploring and discover the number of plastics that I have toxic reactions to according to his tests one, which is styrene monomer. Have you mention anything about that come across that in your research? I haven't come across anything specific in the research fellow as we went through. We did find the number of references. We're very specific individual chemicals in an industrial situation were shown to have a sensitizing effects of those phenomena of sensitizing to it to a single chemical seems to be accepted and well-known ones that we should be looking at all. So that are widespread. I know styrene monomer is extremely widespread and styrofoam insulation and drinking cups and in the plastic containers that we get cottage cheese in and many many many things one one specific example, and maybe I should speak to there's a Review Committee in Canada looking at the use of the best of the fungicide Capitan. And I didn't until I read through some of the literature on this realize that this is fungicide was he being used in and dozens and dozens and dozens of products that are all around the home and in fact, it had been used in some kinds of paints and it was there were certain accepted levels of residues and all of the food that was allowed in the supermarket. So there's there's there's probably thousands of these chemicals that they have That are widespread that you're likely to be coming in contact with every day. And the one thing that said perhaps I should have mentioned earlier. It's from my knowledge of the situation. Absolutely. None of these chemicals have been looked at it from the point of view of sensitization. And and so we we we really are there in the biggest guinea pig experiment that you've ever could possibly conceive in your life. And in the case of the captain, we know we have cases in Canada where where it's has been linked very specifically to two single cases of the widespread sensitivity, then some of the Physicians dealing with pesticides and herbicides and fungicides for some reason feel that they are among the most potent and again lately evidence, but we need a solid evidence has not been accumulated and we need tremendous amount of study to try to start. It's a huge problem. We got to start it up somehow. My my next question would be and I guess it's much more personal one. How do I plug into the network? It's really delightful to finally know that it isn't all in my head and I've been doing research on my own about these things, but it's really exciting to hear about your environment environmental clinics and that you're speaking of number of Physicians who are doing work in this area and I've had very little contact with that so far. So I would love to have some of those contacts that I can begin making myself knowledgeable and educating my physicians in the same time, but I understand that the radio station will be kind enough to accept calls and give out some of the addresses where people can get further information formaldehyde and on a non-chemical susceptibility. Maybe we could do that right now the the local or Regional chapter of suffer, which is again save us from formaldehyde the goodness. I forgotten what that all stands for from environmental repercussion. The local chapter can be contacted by writing to a real Route 1 a box 148c Waconia Minnesota. And the zip code is 55387 gannet suffer rural route 1A box 148 C in Waconia, and the zip is 55387. We should also mention to and I think I did a minute ago that the health department here in Minnesota. Does it have a considerable amount of information about formaldehyde the pollution and for more information you can contact Laura Oatman who is at the health department. I'll give you a couple of phone numbers at 2965 555 and 2/9 65219. 65555 and 290 65219 or just calling you general information number at the State Health Department for more information. Yes, ma'am. Co-director of suffer, and I would like to ask if you think it would work. If they tried to set a safe level for uffi. Personally don't think so. I wouldn't what I'm afraid of is that we until we understand a particularly this sensitivity aspect. We're dealing with a with a population that is becoming increasingly more sensitive and we have to rethink the whole thing because if if if someone has become sensitive as a result of one massive exposure than all of a sudden the levels which are appropriate to them, maybe an order of magnitude less than what would what would it would be for the general population and I like I don't have a way out of this problem, but I think we have to start at the high end at the ones which have been shown to be potent and just eliminate them as much as we can. But I I think that are chemical Industries are are clever enough that got enough researchers with with very good minds and it's not going to be too difficult for them to figure out Alternatives which will not be as powerful in the NFC as damaging as something like a lot of household formaldehyde exposure has proved to be I've heard a lot of horror stories about writing materials with chemicals such as magic marker. People using them in enclosed spaces such as artist who sketching their cars and have lost the use of their extremities is a result. I can find wheelchairs or brain-damaged you have anything to comment on in that I'm very glad you brought that up because I just shudder to see small children using using fistfuls of magic markers. This is one of the one of the most powerful exposures you can get is to is to to fill the air around a small child with solvents and then we just do not know what kind of risk there is with that and I I think in general were not paying enough attention to to what we're doing to our kids. It's bad enough as adults, but some of us are fragrant far gone enough perhaps you don't care anymore, but with the kids with the children, I think we really have to be careful and it will pay in the long run to err on the side of caution with children. Could you lock characterize the response of Manufacturers who are producing from aldehyde Laden products? Well again, I'm not that has not form part of of my particular research. I gather that it has varied everywhere from from concern and cooperation to hoping the whole problem will go away and trying to accuse other people of having made it up. So as with any situation is very tall across the map. Are they responding more that now that lawsuits are beginning to to make again. I don't know what the response is. I would hope that now that they see that people are quite serious about this. They start to put some effort into finding the Alternatives because that's the only way out at this point. We we really just the way it is not going to go away we have to find out the alternatives. Is there a source of information where we can find find out about products that are available locally such as air to air heat exchangers some possibly some kind of I don't know why imagine an activated charcoal filter, which would possibly remove formaldehyde or other chemicals. Is there a compendium of such information so that people can buy those? I'm not sure what is a compendium. I think they the two addresses which will as the other gentleman I said plug you into the network I want is to suffer address in Waconia Minnesota. The other address we should give is for people who who want to follow through information on on chemical susceptibility the human ecology foundation in Goodwood, Ontario, Canada. Can supply information and as you say plug you into the network show you what books are available on the subject and so on. Any more questions for mr. Small? Well in that case thank you for being here today. And also thanks to our technical directors who were a tad gorenflo and John tomor, and also to Fred wash your back in her Studios and thanks to the Dave Chittenden of the science Museum's continuing education department for making arrangements for mr. Small's be here today sign of town meetings are presented in part by the Medtronic Foundation participation of today's guest speaker was made possible by the mobile foundation would like to remind you that two weeks from today Friday February 26th represent another in this series of science town meeting the subject of that meeting will be a robot in your life. It'll be a look into the future with. Dr. Arthur Harkins who is with the future studies Department in the College of Education at the University of Minnesota. We hope you can join us either in person or on the air. Thank you very much.