Good afternoon, and welcome to a science town meeting. I'm rich dietman your host and moderator for this first in a series of for science Town meetings planned for this year. He science Town meetings or a joint production of the Science Museum of Minnesota and Minnesota Public Radio, and they're presented in part with funds provided by the Medtronic Foundation. Today's topic ocean resources. And the law of the sea is particularly appropriate. That's because in March of this year the final session of the United Nations conference on the law of the sea convenes in New York City a conference in which our guest speaker has a very keen interest for 15 years now Elizabeth mon Borghese has been promoting the resources of the world's oceans and the equitable distribution of those resources. She's written two books and several papers on the subject. She chairs the international ocean Institute in Malta and currently she teaches in the training program for the management of Marine Resources and the department of politicalScience at Dalhousie University Halifax Nova Scotia, Dr. Jay Z was born in Munich the daughter of novelist Thomas mom. She received her formal training in music in Zurich after a family fled the Germany of out of Hitler in her late teens and early twenties. She rubbed elbows with the likes of writer Hermann Hesse and after coming to this country with Albert Einstein and Robert Hutchins along with her late husband, Dr. Borghese began work in 1945 with a committee to frame a world Constitution the philosophy that guided her in that endeavor is reflected in her belief that the resources of the world's oceans belong to all countries. That's an approach. He's not been able to sell to several Nations including the United States, don't you welcome please dr. Elizabeth mom Borghese as she addresses the topic ocean resources and the law of the sea.Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be with you here today and you have a chance to discuss with you these problems of the oceans of the new international order that is emerging for the oceans and of Cl potential of ocean resources in the woods development problems.The law of the sea conference is beginning again as you've just told early in March and I we are going to meet for 7 weeks of very very hard work that it is anticipated that this session will bring a an effort that has lasted for 13 years now to a successful conclusion.Over these 13 years from a chaos of proposals and draft articles with his emerge now is a draft Convention of some 310 articles and eight technical a Nexus the most complex prototype for the word Constitution that the International Community has ever seen and we envisioned that this would be signed this year and hopefully ratified in the not too remote future.Know this conference has been described by many people who are on the inside is the most important and certainly the biggest International Conference that has ever taken place in the in modern history. when we started in Caracas in 74 the best 3000 delegates involved in this conference 3000 Every member state of the United Nations was involved in some countries who are not members like Switzerland Vatican all the small countries, like lick liechtensteiner submarino and so on so they were over a hundred and fifty Nations plus all the agencies of the United Nations the World Bank Plus and number of non-governmental organizations. It was really a momentous Gathering. fight this interest in the law of the sea and what what brought all this is a change what brought it what brought it about when it is so complex as you can see already from the few words that I've indicated that I can hardly do justice to this subject with in the short span of 30 30 minutes or so, but I would like to give you just a brief rundown on how it all came about and and what it intended to do you remember that the first proposal for the conference on the law of the sea came from a small country motor the table. In 67 The Proposal How to deal with a peaceful uses of the seabed are beyond the limits of national jurisdiction. Now, what was the intention of motive I did it do that. I can see three major reasons one was that the uses of the oceans we're undergoing a very rapid and divide radical transformation. You see the old in the old days the oceans were there for fishing and the general opinion was there was enough you shouldn't have to worry about it was inexhaustible in the the Ocean Spray used for navigation and that to that use was didn't have to be limited in any in any way that was no a danger that any harm could come of it. No, we were passing through it. Which one might call a marine Revolution that is still penetration of the Industrial Revolution into the ocean. And I was just give you three major aspects of it. It has many more aspects one is that we are seeing that we are witnessing In Our Lifetime the transformation of an Economy based on hunting and Gathering the living resources of the Seas to an economy based on culture on cultivating and selecting aquatic plants and husbanding Aquatic animals. And that's no longer Science Fiction. It's no longer science future. It's with us and the transformation is going much faster than most of us are being aware of already today 15% of all the fish that you buy come from. Resources and not from hunted resources and by the end of the century of the percentage may have gone up but tenfold Innovation. Is that a mining? Which used to be the most terrestrial of all terrestrial occupations of mankind? May be transferred got really over the next 50 years or so from land-based resources to the oceans. You all have heard about the discovery of Manganese nodules on the Deep seabed of the Pacific and Indian oceans potato, like things, you know that contain nickel and copper and Cobalt and manganese that is a lot of strategic materials of which many of the industrialized countries are short and including the United States and their dependent on importing these resources. And now they may instead mind them from the deep seas. That is an enormous undertaking of a technological complexity of the first magnitude. If you think that these things are five thousand fifteen thousand feet down below the surface of the sea. Audios are actually the size of a potatoes. One Technologies described it. It's like mining a potato field from an airplane flying the height of the month, you know down at the Lake Geneva and doing that while it's foggy and but it's dark but it's that kind of technological challenge, but that challenge has been met successful pilot a test have been meet over the past few years 1979, especially and the technical feasibility of extracting these nodules and then of extracting metals from the Dodgers has been proven at the same time. Some of you may have read that some very interesting pools of hot water has been discovered in the middle of the Red Sea. And under those pools of hot water. They salty water that are precipitation again of the useful Metals including zinc silver molybdenum all kinds of useful metal billions of dollars worth and information has been formed between Saudi Arabia and the Sudan and with the cooperation of a German mining from these men are being extracted now, I was for 2 weeks on the research ship with the Germans with a fascinating adventure to see a house that is being done and to give you one more example of these resources mineral resources of the United States National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. At least he has discovered a large deposits of a poly metallic assaulted in the offshore of the Galapagos Islands under the Ecuadorian jurisdiction these to contain copper 20% copper and other metals billions of dollars worth and other Technologies to erase these Metals now exist. So I think that over the next hundred years or so, we may witness it shift from Land mining to OSHA mining. The sword pixel does innovation this regard to resources is the harnessing of Energy's from the oceans in the form of tides of waves of ocean currents of utilizing the difference in temperature between the Walmart surface waters in the bottom Waters. And you know, it was that you can generate a low pressure steam and then you can pass that through a turbine and you can make an electricity that way that's a process called ocean sound energy conversion and the United States again or Clyde leading in this in this field and also are we can anticipate that 20 years from now a large part of the world world's energy need maybe a field of from energy. from the ocean So this just to give you an idea of the big change that's going on in the ocean. And obviously the old legal order the Old Law Offices didn't apply to this totally new and different uses of the oceans. So the intensification of ocean uses the diversification of ocean uses make a new law of the sea inevitable. The second reason was that of the in the old the old laws received was made head be made by a few Maritime great powers like Britain Spain England United States until on industrialized rich countries. End of the new countries are who were born after the second world war the newly independent states that were born from the earth. It has no shit in the making of the law that did not consider that it was just to their own interests and they filled in for the making of a new order in which they would actively participate in the making of which they would actively participated. So the new actors in international Affairs the rise of these new actors was another reason that made a new law of the sea inevitable was inspired by a reason which is perhaps the most beautiful in the most humanistic of all the reasons that drivers in the direction of a new law and that is that most are considered that The sovereignty of States extended only a to a certain Define limit which may have been 12 miles of it might have portion of the oceans. Where is much of the wealth of the ocean sleep beyond that limit didn't belong to anybody and here we really had a great possibility to create something new to create a new type of international cooperation that would utilize these resources for the benefit of mankind is a hole with particular emphasis on the needs of the poorest of the Nations. Well after motor made his proposal committee was appointed by the UN to study the question for the detailed. I remember that it caused enough degree of the real man. Once we were passing through a corridor, you know in the United Nations and somebody pointed to a room and said hey what's going on in there? And the answer was there's a standing committee sitting on the seabed Stephen Walker from the seabed from the standing committee of the committee on the peaceful uses of the seatbelt versus tablet and that then prepared this very great conference The Surge United Nations conference on the law of the sea, which has been in a meeting every year for at least 10 week sometimes 12 weeks. And how about this enormous the document so it what are the issues are in this document? What does this treaty Define the treaty defines on the one hand the delimitation of ocean space that is it brings up to date the traditional body of the law of the sea, which has become of course very much more complicated than it was before under the traditional or you had a narrow belt of territorial seed extending from let's say 3 to Fred Meyers and then you hit the high seas. And that was all there was to it. Now, you have to tell it to you see which would be 12 miles everybody agrees to that the United States to Then you have a contiguous Zone but people can take care of their Customs need to know and he'll send the immigration and whatnot that extends another 12 miles. Then you have an economic zone and that of course is the big innovation of this conference. That is an area extending out to two hundred miles from the coastline of on Baseline. And in that area a States coastal states have Sovereign rights over their resources pause living and non-living and a number of other rights and responsibilities while other states and the International Community also has certain rights in that zone. Then you have a new type of a zone that didn't exist before which is called a cheap Atlantic Waters that is all the waters in between and surrounding the archipelagic states like the Philippines to Indonesia that consists of very many dispersed islands. And you had to have some new kind of a concept to tie them to give them National cohesion and national identity and the waters that surround and in between these islands are called how to put logic Waters and the islands have a certain rights over these Waters that they didn't have before. Then of course you have space the economic zones around Islands, which is also quite extensive. But then when you go under the water, we used to have the continental shelf which legally extended only to a depth of 200 meters, but then it had this ability Clause that famous one, you know, it said of the jurisdiction of the coastal State extends to 200 as a bath or beyond that where technology makes the exploitation of resources in other words. It was a love like a seeing the speed limit on this highway is 50 miles an hour except for cars that can drive faster. So here to obviously awesome at work had to be done and we now have a new law defining the continental shelf and then beyond the continental shelf, which is actually know the Continental margin still not very well-defined, but that's a little better than before. We have see international area and it is there where the seabed authority which will be established by this convention exercises its jurisdiction in the management and regulation of the mining of the non-living resources the metals and minerals in that zone. Will the convention does if you were all the things the convention establishes a regime for environmental a policy that is it introduces really for the first time and environmental law into international law. Which is really quite an achievement. Again, this is quite a a revolutionary breakthrough. It is stopped just a regime for scientific research in the oceans boats in the international area and in areas and the national jurisdiction, and it makes a number of rules and recommendations for technology transfer for the establishment of international centers of Marine Science and Technology so we can bring the developing countries as fast as possible into this present phase of the Industrial Revolution into the Marine Revolution so we can prevent the Gap the development gap between the rich and the poor nations from growing as it has been growing over this last 20 years. Another thing that the convention does which is very very important. It is tablets has a dispute settlement system, which is very complex, but it is the most developed a dispute settlement system in international law and I'm glad to say that the United States particularly in the person of Professor Louis saint of Harvard has made a very very important contribution to the creation of that system. All right. Now here we are and we know what his hip into doing the last year. We having a little difficulty to the United States. The reasons what are the reasons I think that some groups in the mining industry. I'm not particularly attracted by the idea that they have to do the mining in cooperation and under the authority of an international body, but they are still going on the principal, you know, first come first serve all these not just don't belong to anybody so belong to everybody and we just want to go out and get them and forget about the rest of the world. It's this kind of nineteenth-century of Buccaneer mentality, you know that we thought had been a really overcome burnout and four United States presidents and administrations had been involved in the making of This law and had cooperated in the making of This law and had agreed to every detail really and the result of that. We had gotten beyond that the United Nations of the legation kind of this truth from the negotiations sometime in in 80 and 81. The latest news is not too bad latest news is that the United States will return to the negotiations are at this next session, which is beginning. In March, but of course, we don't know what kind of proposes they would bring with them. They say they will bring proposals for changes in the convention of which might make the convention more acceptable to the American Congress in the situation in which we are and after 13 years of intense work and with the draft conventional really being in place except for a few Minor Details. It would be very very difficult issues that already had been settled, you know, if every country that they said they would we get we would get Noah convention at all. The convention that we have certainly has defect. It's only tends to increase inequalities in Soma insofar as some Coastal States get a lot and a lot of other states get very little it certainly will give rise to a number of a boundary. Disputes of which we see already some indications in between Canada and the United States and their baby just dozens and dozens of these certainly the seabed authority the way it has been established is pop far from perfect to me it sort of looks like the like the first bicycle, you know, very cleaned indeed but I think that this is a bicycle once it was we had a prototype been developed over some generation. So I think that the seabed authority Over the next 20-30 years Sunday could be improved and look more like a functional and streamline streamlined racing bicycle than the first quaint one. So the Americans certainly have reason to criticize the convention to be all have reasons to criticize the convention but the choice is not between a better Convention of this convention. The choice is between this convention or no convention at all because politically restart reopening major issues. Now the whole thing the whole package deal as it has been called it's going to fall apart and we get nothing. That is we get what is bad in this convention. We can also result convention the tension of claims of national claims in the ocean goes on the economic zone. The extension to 200 miles is already customer law, but where is when we have a convention that would be certain limitations to be certain legal regulations. If we don't have a convention everybody will exercise his sovereignty without any Bridal in the oven. Zone which may complicate shipping which may complicate The Passage through International straight and so on so I think we have much much much better off if we hit this invention then if we don't have it, so I hope that the American proposals will be relatively and not a fundamental issues that have been settled. It is our suspicions from the rumor said when he is on the country that the proposals maybe rather radical in which case stability negotiated. The majority of countries will not go along and we will sign the convention without the United States. I don't think that that is going to be of any benefit to the United States because if you're not Estates signs, well, then the United States would be a party to the Preparatory commission that is going to be established to really put things into place to really an act and interpret the provisions and to establish the organs like the seabed authority and the international tribunal on the law of the sea United States. It is out. This organs will be set up without u n a participation is the United States signs. It still has not ratified and is in the. Between signing and ratification things really turn out in such a way that the United States feeds. It doesn't want to ratify. It still is free not to ride is ratified. so I would save fervently hope that the United States does indeed sign you see the main issue that the American objections focus on the seabed authority and its jurisdiction over mining activities in the international area the United States objected to How much time have you got do I have a little more time the United States object to a certain paragraphs which imposed a production limitation on the earth of a production of a metal from the seat and that of course was meant to protect a land-based produces. The discount rate is like diarrhea Zambia who produce the same metals that are going to be produced in the oceans that produced them land and therefore the prices might be affected by ocean Mining and so the export earning of these countries would be affected and also they want to be protected against them. The United States objected to the kind of Taxation that will be imposed on Ocean - that is some royalties will have to be paid to the seabed authority and this royalties. I meant to be a substantial so that there is some benefit to mankind as a whole the United States objected to certain provisions on the transfer of Technologies, which says it cannot and it does not wish to transfer in as far as they are mostly the property of a private industry in this country. And so they they cannot do anything about that. I think the internet has another objection the United States filled. It does not have a big enough voice in the decision-making bodies are of the authority that it might be at voted on issues that are accrued interest to the United States. Now all this is based on the assumption that the seabed authority is really going to function along the lines that had been foreseen in the seventies. Now, this is not going to be the case and a lot of people are not really a well said yet and US implication that that's going to have mining is not going to take place primarily or probably not at all for this Century in the international area because recent scientific discoveries have given evidence that the Minerals like those contained in the manganese nodules now in areas under national jurisdiction. The Mexicans have manganese nodules in the areas under their jurisdiction a chili has nodules Ecuador has a metallic solid OS which can be mine and its industry goes into ocean mining. It will go in bilateral arrangements with these Coastal States and it doesn't have to go to the authorities. If it doesn't want to show them what we all know that we are passing through a rather deep recession the prices of all the medals to be mined unstable aloe and it just in the time for a new industry to get a on the way to to get started so that the issues that the United States is concerned about at the moment are very serious. And I think when we have established the seabed authority, we always have to put our heads together and think of ways to make it useful to the International Community which are quite different from the ways 4C now by the treaty, so I would think if the United States signed the treaty participates in the Preparatory work in the stop these organizations and so on and wait 10 years from now the situation may be entirely different and you can postpone gratification as long as you want to know. So that would be that would be a my hope my mind via signing and even the ratification of the convention is only the first step in a very long process of very radical transformation of the order in the ocean of the international political and economic order in general. What will come next is a lot of work on a regional basis. We see that already going on in the framework of fear Regional C's program of the United Nations environment programme unep we have a special conventions for the Mediterranean. We have special conventions in the making for the Caribbean. We have special conventions for the person calls for 4:10 ocean for the red seat for a number of ocean areas where this Regional agreements of I meant to articulate the global law which is not really a big Broad and special differences in the environmental sector. It's soft law in the environmental sector, but regionally with the cooperation of coastal states of one concrete region with a concrete common interest, then you can put teeth in these provisions and that's exactly what's happening now in the Mediterranean and in all the areas We have another development that's going on has already started his been set into motion by this big enormous and deposit is the law of the sea conference. And that is that the agencies of the United Nations that are involved in Ocean Affairs in one way or another like Sao for food from the oceans like the inter-governmental oceanographic commission for Marine Sciences, like includes the intergovernmental Maritime consultative Organization for shipping. All of them have to restructure have to be strengthened to cope with your new demands that are being made on them by state especially by developing states in the week and as a consequence of the new law of the sea And lastly National legislation all over the world has to catch up with this new development has to be brought into line with no international law. If you take for instance. Country that has had maybe a few regulations of words Fisheries, but nothing even for oil drilling because that's just knew of its Choice. It has to put together a test to look at all. It's old laws on the use of the sea has to bring them up-to-date as to create a institutional infrastructure to 22 really a handle of the sink and his to bring all of that in line with new international law and his to integrate the policies of its institutions Missy institutional infrastructure on an international Regional and Global basis. So you see this job is enormous, I think. It will love it will keep us busy for the next 25 years or so. But then if you look at the oceans in this way, I think we really can consider them as the great laboratory in which we are beginning to hammer out new forms of international cooperation and new forms of international organization, which may become a model for international organization incorporation in general in the next 10 trolley. Thank you very much. Doctor Borghese. I want to invite to people here in the science museum Auditorium. If they have a question for dr. Borg AC to use one or two microphones that are placed in the aisles for that purpose and the while those of you who would like to ask questions or approaching those microphones. I would like to ask doctor for Jay-Z question myself, assuming that the seabed authority can be circumvented as you say it can be at least to some degree by countries like the United States which could go directly to a country like Ecuador chili for the mining that they might want to do. Doesn't that take an awful lot of of the teeth out of Ava seabed Authority off a lot of authority away from it. What good is it if if a country can circumvent the authority The seabed Authority was really a great idea here for the first time we had an organization that could equip this Resource Management on a global basis on an international basis here for the first time. We have a principal of international taxation you for the first time we have structured relationship between the most national private companies and a public International Organization for the first time. We have a u n body that is not only a coordinating that is not only bureaucracy, but it is operational. It produces something it said so it was a great idea based on the idea that the abyss Authority had a monopoly over the over the resource that it owns the resource. Now this turns out not to be the case must be there for abandon this great really Innovative really constructive. I did know I don't think we have to I think we can make the authority useful to the world Community post to the industrialized end to the developing countries. Just the same. What do you prepare how to make commission must do is to organize this Authority in such a way that it on the one hand complies with the convention with the terms of the convention, which we cannot change but the juice what does not applicable and uses and develops on the other hand. What is applicable for instance? I think that the authority could do a great job and international research and development which would be beneficial post to industrialized into developing countries. It could explore resources in the economic zones of develop. Countries which need badly assistant which have to be assisted in this area. It could perform a couple of other functions that don't want to take too much time could establish International Marine parks in the areas where new forms of life have been discovered recently and which must be protected against the devastation from premature mining exploration of activities. So it could be made very very useful boost to developed and developing countries. And then later on when mining in the international Zone that becomes actual Next Century it could then perform the service for which it was originally meant Alright, thank you. Once again, encourage any of you have questions, please. Come on up. We have a question your hero. Tell us what your question is place like to ask about something which is it may be easier to understand than all these economic matters something more spectacular having to do with the Wailing situation than the wonder. If you could inform us about where the different countries are about that what the Hope might be that something might be enforced about that before the whales are gone. Oh that is a very good Christmas Christy of confidence itself or did not occupy concern itself directly with the issue. Although it did make some broad and general regulations about the conservation of marine mammals, but then of course you see this is a abroad covering convention which then must be articulated by other organizations area by area. Now, as you know, the organization that is in charge of taking care of the ways is the international whaling commission the work of the international whaling commission has been frustratingly slow and ineffective, but I think that some Headway know his been made and that one nation after the other is in fact abandoning a commercial of wailing as soon as the last ones or to hold out the Soviet Union and the Japan Of the Soviet Union has not already also agreed to a very drastic architect and icing a Japan will also agree that thing is, you know. You know how history moves it does it is not moved by idealists alone and it is not moved by so-called realest alone. History moves progress is made when I did interest in economic interests coincide, you know slavery went away not because we were a Christian but because it didn't pay any more it didn't fit into an industrialized Society Bulls score. We not because we are pacifists but because the atomic Arsenal is becoming so insane that word was are no longer no longer can no longer be considered as a solution to anything in the Wailing Keys the same thing happens. We going to stop whaling because we are human Humane and we wanted to conserve a species that is it is wonderful that by that alone. We will not stop it. But when whaling loses its economic significance rapidly, Rapidly, it's no longer economically 200 and that case when economic and ideal interest go together, then we get the results that we want. When Americans are hearing that Mining and private mining interests are influencing our signing of the of the convention. First Wok. Is there anything at Americans can do about this situation if they don't feel the private mining interests are in the interest of America as a whole and second of all time. Does the sun mining does this under play the emphasis on the couch Ring Of The Seas and is not not in the long run much more important to America that we have new horse sources of food. Could you speak to that please? Yes, indeed. Yes. I think it is if I may say so very short-sighted to let it policy be influenced by one sector of Interest alone. Certainly. It is the meaning of it and it's only part of the money that has put the spikes in in the in the weeds right now. You know, where is obviously there are a great many more interests involved you see in no other sector of a phone policy if you consider the law of the sea as a c Turn off a phone policy, which it is is the interaction between local internal interest and phone policy. So it's so closely knit as in the in the case of the lawsuit UFC interest of of the fisheries. And even there you have it, you know differences between the east coast of Fisheries or who are need a lot of Fisheries conservation Zone to keep a phone a Fisheries out and to be able to manage their history and you have the rest Coast Fisheries which artist and water and Fisheries the tuna fish and able. To be in favor of a narrow belt of Truth station so they can fish off the coast of of the country. So you didn't conflict within the Fisheries. Then you have the interest of the Navy and of the Pentagon of clothes and they are again a different way different from those of of Industries. Well, you know if I may be a controversial yet My feeling is that the internal conflict between these various groups within the United States that this conflict is very unresolved and that the position of the United States are externally therefore it's perhaps not as adamant as one might think it is in other words the United States at the present juncture could take either one of two positions either the resistance against the treaty and let's say a wave of new isolationism. Cleaned it said would be but I mean supposed to tell me a really strong and United States hundred percent every citizen of the United States didn't want this convention United States would have a lot of ways outside of the conference bilaterally to put pressures on other countries on its clients into on to say look you are not going to sign this because if you sign this treaty such and such as going to help me or not going to get assistance, you're not going to get this you're not going to get that and in that case believe me the convention would not be signed because they're too many countries that are too dependent on the United States to go out and and and do something that was out right against the vital interests of the United States, but there's another position in the dispenser United States Tazewell, we we won't sign now we won't sign up because our mining love is raising hell and the situation is too uncertain everything. To write this conflicts about this issue be will abstain reborn side, but we won't stop anybody else you go ahead and sign that convention and we wait and see and if things turn out right later on WE rejoin in this case, the convention will be signed this year and I hope I hope it will certainly the interest that do not have state has in the Lost Sea a match much wider than the interest of one mining Lobby and with information on can one can help a lot because a lot of things go by before, you know, there's a small group of congressmen who are under the influence of of a part of the mining industry. The other people don't care about love to see they don't know about the law of the Sea and the singles by default. That's the way it is the movie. I'm interested in the current environmental impact of industrial pollution on the world's oceans. And also how the convention will address the problem and address control of of the problem since much of this takes place within territorial limits of a country but yet its effect extends throughout the whole world. Well, that is a very difficult question. Of course the state of health of the oceans is not very good at this moment. It is not desperate that is wide areas of the high seas Not Yet Market the affected by what countries Coastal states are doing a coastal areas are barely affected in some in some parts of the world very badly affected and some and close to these like the Mediterranean a very severely affected new Mediterranean which I happen to know quite a bit. I lived there for many years one bathing establishment after the other one beach after the other had to be closed shellfish can no longer be eating fish are getting too much and it's been really very bad. Know what does the present convention do about that the present convention at least that's General standards. It says states must do certain so States cannot do such and such and that includes a ship on pollution pollution coming through the atmosphere pollution coming from the seabed and pollution coming up from a coastal of runoff. Send out song. Know what is the validity of this kind of law of international law. I have a Define it as soft law. It is not more than soft law because at present it's like an institution of infrastructure ring to carry it out to carry it through certainly a country now can take another country to court. If It suffers from pollution originating in that other country that has been some progress in this direction, but it is perfect not enough, but what this law has been done has been doing already even before the signed is to set in motion the train to which I referred of regional cooperation on this on this issues the conclusion of regional conventions and of protocols in the wake of these conventions that really put teeth into this kind of love. Now. I am quite familiar with this program this original C's program. Of unit and the people who run that tell me why we couldn't have done that except on the basis of the law of the sea convention which introduces these standards and these principles into international law, even if it is still broad to Broad and hidden got teeth but on that basis, we originally can I can do something about it. So I'm not at all pissy Mystic. I think that the effect in the short-run effect of this development will be quite drastic. Advocates of a common Heritage fund have argued that the wealth of the Seas beyond the limits of national jurisdiction should be texting me for the common benefit of mankind and particularly. So for the less-developed countries and as the law of the sea convention now stands that packs if any would derive only from the area beyond the 200-mile exclusive economic zone, but there are some people who still think that there's a fighting chance that the area subject to taxation would be that Beyond The Twelve Mile territorial limit. Do you think there is even any chance that that the exclusive that the common Heritage fun can be made to extend to The Wider area? Conference because the group of 77 it says it's divided on it. And you know when there is an issue on which the group of 77 is divided. It doesn't have very much chance as it now stands in his 1/12 supporters. Most of them are landlocked countries my own delegation, of course isn't supportive it Austria Singapore ulcers in favor of it in the others are landlocked countries in Asia and Africa in Latin America. I would welcome at 100% if that provision still could be included in the convention itself. I would rule it out. I think it is totally impossible just as it is impossible to accommodate major proportions for me to change is coming from the United States at this point. If it's this point we make any major things in this Sunday would be a major change the whole thing falls apart. Everybody comes up with something else. We have to consider this phase of the negotiations is closed. We can do some small minor changes but not anything of this magnitude, but I have been proposing. Also in a study that I made a recently of for the World Bank is that as soon as we have two convention signed, let's follow the path that the Europeans that they are Mediterraneans have followed in the adoption of a Convention of Barcelona, which was brought it with soft cloth over the series of particles, which put teeth into it including Financial teeth. That is as soon as we have the convention. Let's have a protocol and acting The Nepalese proposal for a common Heritage fund and the taxation on oiled and economic zone. I think that International taxation has to be developed in conjunction with determined uses of the tax money and in conjunction with the maturation of an of an Institutional infrastructure, so suppose that we are using the seabed authority to explore for oil in the economic zones of developing countries with a direct and concrete benefit for some developing countries and the proposal to have a tax on oil production within the economic soon becomes very much more plausible. This is the way I would go. We have time for just one more question in a relatively brief response. Would you care to name the mining interests that are lobbying against the United States approval of the convention? Well, you know, I'm not the not in the inner Inner Circle of the u.s. Mining business. I think however, it is an Open Secret that it is United States that is close to the greatest difficulties. Thank you very much. Doctor Elizabeth mom for Jay Z. And I also want to thank our technical directors for today's broadcast, which was heard over the Stations of Minnesota Public Radio. Technical directors are tagged gorenflo and John tomor here at the science museum Auditorium and back in the studio Fred washer. Thanks to Dave Chittenden who took care of arrangements for today speaker. And the also a two I mentioned that to science Town meetings are presented in part by the Medtronic Foundation participation of today's guest speaker was made possible by the mobile foundation like to remind all of you here today and also listening to us on the Stations of NPR the two weeks from today on Friday February 12th would present Another Science town meeting that one will be entitled indoor pollution home deadly home. Our guest speaker will be Bruce small. He's an environmental engineer and author of the book Sunny Hill the hell story of the 1980s. We hope that you will be able to join us for that program. Thank you for coming. 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