That 19th century dance music performed by the Smithsonian social Orchestra and quadrille band is reminiscent of Gala events of bygone days. Well, there is a string of Gala events going on this month in St. Paul some of whichGoing back to the days of the walls in the shottish. It's st. Paul's 125th anniversary this month and to market the city is sponsoring a number of lectures dedications parties and parades in the studio with me this morning are two people who are experts on st. Paul's history and who were involved in that birthday celebration, Virginia Coons is executive director of the Ramsey County Historical Society and she's with me along with Richard Pharisee a st. Paul architect who has been active in preserving some of the city's older structures. Good morning to both of you and thanks for being with me. The more you I guess I'd like to begin Virginia by asking you why is it that 18 what happened in 1854 that would have been an event big enough to cause it to be called the birthday or the birth of the city of st. Paul. Well in 1854 in January of 1854 actually the state legislature passed a bill authorizing the chartering of st. Paul as a city of st. Paul had been a town since 18-49.This was chartering st. Paul as a city. And so that is why this year is the 125th anniversary really of the creation of the city of st. Paul but it is a second anniversary. It is the hundred and thirtieth anniversary of the creation of Ramsey County and we really feel we ought to say that because we're from the Ramsey County Historical Society, but Ramsey County was one of a number of counties that were created in 18-49 when Minnesota became a territory Tell us the story about why we're not celebrating the 125th birthday of Pig's Eye Minnesota and say the same thing fortunately we were spared. This fascinating name is a city Pig site. Pierre Pig's Eye product was a was a very colorful fur Trader who wandered through here in the 18 late 1830s and 1840s and he established a saloon down where the Delta Queen Doc's will dock sometime next week and the area became known as pigs. I Landing because he was so well-known along the river for be no as a whiskey seller, but father Lucien got here came into the territory in 1814 established a chapel down also near pigs eyes beside a pig's eye Saloon and ask that they call the settlement st. Paul and honor his chapel and so they did and so we did and so we have not been known as Pig's Eye since the 1840s. Mr. Pharisee. Are there any buildings that are standing this morning in st. Paul that we're here 125 years ago. There are a few mostly houses dolls house a small residence, which you wouldn't recognize today as been changed quite a bit is still standing. There are a few houses and Irvine Park the governor Marshall house, which is currently being restored. I believe the Justice Ramsey house on 7th Street few other buildings shortly after that period the old German School the assumption school is from the 1860's. There's really very little left, but we should mention a building. It's very important to us and and is very appropriate in the sort of in the marking of the County's a hundred and thirtieth anniversary. And that is our Gibbs Farm Museum. Now that land was acquired by human Gibbs in 18-49 and the Gibbs Farmhouse, which is a National Historic Site dates from 1854 and that is still standing today and Matter of fact we are having a gigantic annual Harvest Festival out there today. And tomorrow is a sort of a kickoff for these birthday celebrations and so people will be able to see that structure and to tour it and to see something of what life was like in this area in 1854. If we were coming up the Delta Queen this morning pulling into st. Paul in 1854 or a few years after that. What would we have found? What would it have looked like back then? Well, you would have found a collection of rather nondescript a buildings. I think it has been said now dick correct me that the workmanship in those those very early years was not exactly spectacular or was architectural design. Very Kevin's most hated some frame buildings wooden frame buildings. Mostly spread out not all packed together as we see now one story a few two-story buildings Limestone from the Limestone foundations. The window we're looking at right now at Mears Park, which was Smith Park would not have been a lovely park but a 40-foot Hill which has been removed to build streets and other things in the city this this part of town. The Mears Park area was called Baptist Hill. I don't believe the Baptist the first frame Baptist Church had been constructed by that time. Well, there was a frame church that stood on the hill in 1851. We you know, we're putting we have published an anniversary edition of our magazine Ramsey County history and we have a picture of the intersection of 3rd and Roberts Street in 1851 and Baptist the Baptist Church standing on Baptist Hill, which is as Ditka said Myers Park as shows very clearly in that picture. It's not the structure that standing today, but it is the earlier one. You would have thought this was a stone yard if you had come here Cory in 1854 because they were cutting the streets through and cutting them through Limestone. It was a lot of rubber lying around and it was a very kind of a Barren area. This was a savannah with not without many many trees. It sets up a bit above the above. The river I would have thought I would have thought that that would have been a struggle for people to get Goods off of the boats up the hill and and might have thought that people might have settled the more down in the lower area across across the river did that take place so yes to some extent but because we didn't have Bridges at that time. So it was you had to go across by ferry. They 18 1854 was an enormous period of building. Boom people simply poured into the territory in 18-49. We have records in our magazine of thousands of people coming up on Steam boats, but it wasn't the first building building boom in the history of st. Paul by any means, we had a later one of the 1880s that was quite spectacular. Are some of those buildings still with us then we're fortunate that many many of the buildings built in the 1880s, which is really really as Virginia's had a spectacular boom. And st. Paul many of those buildings are still there the old 1887 James J Hill office building stands near lampert's Landing the pioneer building one of the great buildings of st. Paul of course is still standing the Endicott building by Cass Gilbert next door the Empire Building don't let me forget them a call building which was the Merchants Bank very very lovely smaller red stone building and of course the pride of st. Paul the old federal courts building Landmark Center was built started in about 1890 to and that has been restored and is now a cultural center for our city have a couple of questions about restoration. And the first one has to do with how do do people who get behind the projects for Duration of various buildings decide which ones to put their time and effort and money into and which ones they're going to say. Well that one we'll just have to go there are criteria. Do you use there's there's a number of different things you have to look at one is the architectural significance of the building or other kinds of significant social Civic significance economic significance something else that might be important historically the Building in South st. Paul the old Stockyard Exchange building is not necessarily architecturally significant, but it is very significant in the economic sense and that community and that is being restored. The other thing you have to look at is is it even feasible will the whole thing fall down the first time you lean up against it? Is it so big and so huge that you can't even begin to tackle it. So the whole business of feasibility is important. And then the final thing is what can this building be used for it doesn't have to be used for what it was in the first place. We know that from the Butler Building A Minneapolis from smaller things like the for Pau house in st. Paul is now restaurant. Wa Frost and company that was a drugstore and is now very fine little bar and restaurant. What can it be is also very important as Virginia mentioned. There was a building boom in the late 1800s here in St. Paul. There's another one going on right now of the buildings that are going up in st. Paul and perhaps across the river. Up the river in Minneapolis 5075 a hundred years from now which one's might do we expect if we were around then to see if people getting behind and trying to support their restoration and and the keeping them from being torn down. I would suppose it would be some of the buildings that have energy conservation devices expressed on and perhaps the new Radisson Hotel and saying Paul that 50 years from now, we could be maybe a hundred when I guess I'll be around that we'd be looking at that and saying that real strange apparatus on the outside really ought to be saved. We might be fighting to save smaller structures that are very commonplace today that might be disappearing like the first McDonald's built in Bloomington or a gas station or the last 7-Eleven store in the Twin Cities might be some funny little building, you know, there was a movement afoot and I think back in the 1950s maybe their early 60s to begin to save some of Slums as a as an expression of the way certain way of life a certain amount of social history that our nation had been through but I also think that perhaps they did represent as well a very special architectural and historical Heritage because we tend to to let our older structures in some cases deteriorate, which is a very great loss. As far as are the physical reminders of our heritage has our heritage is concerned. It's never too late. We probably ought to form a committee to save the IDS Tower now. Well, I also hope that would still be preserving Landmark Center and and some of the other structures at that. We are trying to recycle today. We are having a special conference on this Thursday at the University Club for for historians and preservationists and the economic asset that restoring and preserving older buildings can be to a city and leave Adler who is an investment banker and past president of the historic Savannah the Restoration in Savannah. Georgia will be in town has a keynote speaker and it's a day-long conference. We're going to be this this subject is very much on our minds right now. We're all that conference be at the University cop on Thursday, October 11th. We talked about the Riverboat to how people would get to st. Paul a hundred or more years ago. How did they get around once they were here for their streetcars people travel by stage-by-stage not know streetcars in the 1850s, but by the 1870s and 80s, we had first horse-drawn omnibuses and then and then they were converted to tracks so we had streetcars and we had cable cars. Just like San Francisco and for the same reason the hill what the Excel be Shelby Hill in the Dayton. There was an attempt to build a people mover and the 1880s from st. Paul to South st. Paul and a portion of track. This is a just like the people mover people are talking about today a piece of elevated track monorail. I believe with a series of cars would ride from downtown st. Paul across the river to downtown South st. Paul. How would it have been how was it run electricity or horses? Yes, I think so. It was part of the development of the came out of the development of the street Railways. I think what they've been I think electrically operated it turned out to have the same success that the people mover is having in st. Paul that is it never got off the ground. I see when a person would get to st. Paul and they were looking for a hotel to stay and what kinds of things do they have to choose from a hundred or so years ago. There's some pretty snazzy places to say they were not snazzy not by any means in the 1850s. They were very they were small structures two-story buildings. There were such a spectacular how there was a Saint Paul house, which is one of the very first hotels operated by Jacob W bass became the merchants Hotel. There was the Lafayette house but by the 1880s the downtown of st. Paul is just littered with marvelous old residential hotels and some of those lasted a long time. Well, we all remember a lot of us at least the Ryan Hotel nificent beautiful hotel and it's too bad. It's gone. It's just been 10 years. Hmm. That's right. And then there was the old Colonnade that is still standing. It's wobbling a little but still standing. It's at 10th. And st. Peter. It's now known as the Third and it was just condemned by the city. Yes, but they happened some plans for a restoration and of that structure and we would hope they're going forward. There's the Angus the old Blair Hotel up and in the Summit Avenue area. There was a an old hotel in the state of Minnesota club that was about a five story structure. So this this whole part of the downtown residential hotel in the latter part of the 19th century is a very important part of our social history and one I think we should probably Explore More than we have to We're only about 15 minutes or so via the freeway from or less than 15 10 minutes from Downtown Minneapolis Back in the eighteen fifties or sixties did people do much traveling back and forth between Minneapolis and st. Paul. Yes thick Excursion to Minnehaha Falls was extremely popular. It was not the running over to Dayton's and do your shopping as people do today. It was an outing it was quite an Excursion in one that people planned for but they did have by the latter part of the 19th century. They had a magnificent Railway system that took people over and they would make stops you could live in Merriam Parker st. Anthony and compute by train to downtown Minneapolis or st. Paul and you could travel between the two cities in that way and along the the tracks ran through the Midway District today and it was really quite a quite a good link between the two cities. How long would it have taken to make that trip you suppose? Oh, I think they're really timetable say to 10 minutes from Marion Park Francis to downtown st. Paul or to Minneapolis. It was about halfway between the two cities. So not very very know it all that much longer than it takes to get over there. Now, that's right. Now streetcars. I was I remember dick took about an hour didn't they between the two Loops? Oh, I'm not old enough. Minneapolis has the reputation at least of having some having had some of the big flour Mills the big Lumber Mills at st. Anthony Falls, but I don't know of as many meals or any meals either Lumber or flower in st. Paul where there are some. Yes, we had some flour meow's very early and fail in Creek Phelan Creek and Trout Brook where they mail worthy streams that were used as a source of water power. But of course, they were small streams did not flow all that swiftly could not possibly compete with the mighty Mississippi and st. Anthony Falls. But yes, there was some Milling here and some numbering but not a great deal. The logs came down the Mississippi went over the falls floated on down past st. Paul site, and we're snatched out of the river. They came along saying Paul was more of a warehousing City a commercial City a transportation City the riverboats. Stopped at st. Paul the railroads started at st. Paul on their way west. So again right in the neighborhood were in here in the Mears Park area. There are many Warehouse building Still Standing this building the Mears park building was the Old Cutler noise building. It was a Drug Warehouse building and that's what started the big commercial boom in st. Paul. That's right. That's we have just a couple of minutes left to us this morning. And I guess what I would like you to do is just give me a brief rundown of some of the events that are still take place this this month as far as the 125th anniversary of st. Paul. We were hearing fireworks in the distance here in the studio earlier this morning from the depot a few blocks away and what was going on there and what can we expect to hear about in the coming weeks? That's quite a party at the Depot dick and I is were had looked in there earlier before coming over here to the studio that goes on tomorrow through tomorrow as I have said. Our Harvest Festival to give us Farm Museum goes on through tomorrow on Tuesday. We are opening an exhibit in the on the first floor of Landmark Center and the cortile and this is an exhibit of photographs of all the structures that are still standing in st. Paul that date from the eighteen eighteen fifty for the ones that we were talking about a little bit earlier in this broadcast. We have historic exhibits in a number of places in town one is in First Bank the Delta Queen docks on Friday, and as I understand when she pulls in her Calliope will play happy birthday. Very good. Well, thank you very much for junior Coons executive director of the Ramsey County Historical Society and Richard Pharisee. Who is the Saint Paul architect and involved in preserving some of the final buildings of the city of st. Paul the time now is just a little bit less than two minutes after 12 noon and time enough to bring you the Twin Cities area weather forecast this afternoon. The forecast is for mostly cloudy and cool tonight and Sunday partly cloudy. The high today in the Twin Cities is expected to be about 50 degrees the low tonight in the mid to upper 30s. The high on Sunday in the Twin Cities is expected to only be in the upper 50s. It's going to be continued windy this afternoon with winds out of the Northwest at 15 to 25 miles per hour. They will switch to the Westerly Direction at about 10 miles per hour this evening. We also want to remind you that at six o'clock on these NPR stations the Prairie Home Companion Saturday show with host Garrett. Killer comes your way and Garrison's guests tonight will include Claudia Schmidt can bloom Judy Larson and Bill Hinckley that program the broadcast of that program begins at six. If you are interested in attending in person, you should be at the world theater downtown st. Paul another one of the older structures in the city and it's a good idea to be there about 4:30 or so to get your tickets to show their starts at 5:30. That's the Prairie Home Companion show at 6 o'clock tonight on these NPR stations. The time now is three minutes past 12:00 noon. This is Minnesota Public Radio a listener-supported service. Funds for part of today's broadcast are provided by a grant from the Fingerhut Corporation. The time now is three and a half minutes past 12:00 noon on Saturday morning, October 6th. I'm rich dieteman and st. Paul and we want to remind you that today's programming on these NPR stations is sponsored in part in memory of Reginald Ames. This was a cooperation a Kind of Wonderful learning process where business and the Arts were sitting in the same room deciding things together compromising sometimes being rather stubborn learning to get along business teaching the art the artist how business does things that produce spaces like this. That's Carol Ann McKay whose three-year-old idea to turn the old Minneapolis Masonic temple into an art center becomes reality October 15th for the rest of the hour. Today. We're going to visit some of the Arts and Cultural Affairs centers around our region and the people who make them possible we hear also from some artists who believe you don't have to live in the mountains or at the seashore in order to create good art. We Begin our tour of centers in the Twin Cities 10 days from now minneapolis's newest Arts Center will be open to the public the Hennepin Center for the Arts is the new name for the renovated Masonic temple in the Heart of the City when its doors finally opened the cost of refurbishing The Landmark structure will be nearly five million dollars and the center will open in the black with all of its renovation bills paid. Thanks to an unusual Cooperative funding effort between In the public and private sectors Nancy Fusion has been looking into the center's development and has prepared this report. The intersection of Hennepin Avenue and 6th Street in Downtown Minneapolis for years one corner has been dominated by an eight-story Richard sounion Romanesque structure back in 1890. It's heavy Sandstone perimeter and closed facilities for 11 Masonic groups. The Masonic temple constructed at a cost of over 350,000 dollars had five large halls and fifty Auntie committee and reception rooms. There were large ground floor office has outfitted with both gas and electric lighting but the intervening Decades of grime and sought had grade the pale beige Sandstone the large holes lay in Dusty disrepair and by 1947 the offices of that earlier Elegance had acquired the more common bearings of the merchandise building Corporation. Another 30 years passed and the Sandstone all but blackened only a smattering of the commercial concerns were left to mingle with the dust as Street and pedestrian traffic traveled by ignoring the old Temple to Studio artists managed at least a sidewards glance. Hennepin and sixth sculptor Carol Ann McKay remembers that Day in 1976. We got wind of the fact that there was some space available in this building and we got hold of the owners we contacted them and they brought us through the building for the first time and there were empty spaces the spaces at the Minnesota dance company for instance is now occupying were empty spaces. One of those big studios was a warehouse for watch parts and it was a two-story High Space full of little tiny cabinets full of tiny teeny part time. It was it was quite an interesting place in and of itself, but we looked at the spaces in the building and there were no there was no freight elevator. I'm a sculptor and my work is heavy outdoor steel and aluminum constructions. There was no way for me to actually occupy that space because I couldn't get my materials in or out of the building that ended it for us and The building kept haunting me. Today the building far from hauntzer. It's black outer walls have been chemically restored to their original Sandstone Hue and equal to the exterior facelift has been the temples complete interior renovation, Carol. Ann. McKay is about to formally introduce the Twin Cities to her three-year-old brainchild the Hennepin Center for the Arts. It will house ten Arts organizations, including two major groups the cricket theater and the Minnesota Dance Theater it looks the way I expected it to look the spaces have not changed radically at all. That was one of the reasons it was feasible to do this building was at the space has existed from the outside of the building as you know, you cannot tell that it's anything but a Labyrinth of small offices, but in fact the whole core of the building are every other floor two-story. Hi, gorgeous 5,000 square foot performing spaces. Given the spaces it was very obvious that it was going to look Exquisite clean simple orderly building lots of intricacy on the outside. Lots of drama in the arched windows were looking at it couldn't be bad. You could have painted it pink purple and polka dots and it wouldn't have been bad and because the spaces are there and are workable. And now of course it's full of people and that's all the more exciting. It's stupendous looking with all the dancers in it. carpeting What is this? That dreams two things too bad. We can't believe this is like a regular public building. Here are the showers. Do they work? I'm going to dirty right now Yes, and that's it. We are finally an organization that can be identified as a major State Arts resource and not just because of the Productions were doing and not just because of the size of the school, but because we have a staff that is living in a place that defines that in and of itself never lie, Seaman general manager for the Minnesota Dance Theater, her organization is the largest tenant with a total space allotment of over 30,000 square feet that makes it one of the nation's largest dance school and rehearsal facilities MDT spent much of the past year living side by side. The renovation dancers would rehearse with particle masks to fend off the dust semen herself watched her own office reduced to nothing more than pipes and molding. But now as she looks out her sixth floor window the general manager assesses what the renovated space really means for her dance company. We will have some of the most excellent office spaces That were designed with the Architects with every function for that space in mind in every instance and to our specifications to the extent that they could spread the Dollars around it says something quite special and quite unique. Quite unique Beyond physical space. All right and ability to be easy easily identified by our various Public's and that would include our audiences concert audiences as well as our student audiences and in also includes the business Community whom we go to for support and who we hope to bring munnies as a result of our activities here in the metropolitan area. So when they can identify the fact that we are in that building they will understand better who we are buildings do bear some kind of instant validation of an organization like mdt's Beverly Seaman a program director of a smaller organization the Minnesota public programming Corporation agrees that increased visibility via the Hennepin Center will lead to increased funding but Lowell picket adds that the benefits accrue not only on an individual basis, but from the Public's perception of a new Art's Consortium the combination of organizations in one unit will make their existence apparent to more people. And in that sense more people will appreciate the services that they provide and somewhere there's going to be a watershed effect where that develops more funds for the Arts in general beyond the funding Factor pickets. He's the Hennepin Center tenants participating in an ongoing creative interaction, which could benefit every organization including his own independent television production company. Well, there's a cross fertilization that takes place whenever there is an exchange of ideas one rarely learns in a vacuum. Hi everything that we do we produce primarily documentary films some we are interested interested in some originally scripted scripted work, but primarily documentary films those films by definition are about something if we're not exposed to ideas and to the activities of other people that we find interesting we have nothing for the film's to be about there are I'm sure going to be a lot of stories within that building that would be worth making films about and it would be worth making good television programs about for viewers in this area and perhaps nationally mobile pickets point is avidly supported by fellow Hennepin Center tenant Carl Brookins an admissions counselor for the newly relocated Minneapolis branch of Metro State University Brookins views, the potential interaction dovetailing with Metro States commitment to community involvement. We see a two-way street in a sense we have access to people who can provide information and Meaning and expertise for Arts organizations that are involved in the center and we also see a closer involvement for our students and our faculty and staff in those organizations both in the center. Of course outside the center in addition to the Future pooling of artistic talent there already are indications that some economic sharing has occurred Hennepin Center tenants are splitting the costs of security and maintenance in the building and the Minnesota dance theater is working on sharing some of its Apple Studio space with the Cricut theater for rehearsal purposes and speaking of the cricket their rehearsals for the new season are already underway, according to the theater staff Advance ticket sales are breaking records. Some people had wondered whether the move downtown would cost the cricket some of its patrons who are partial to the funky charm of the older location at Northeast Minneapolis, but those concerns have apparently vanished amid the new 388 seat theater on Hennepin centers top floor and that includes actor Peter Moore who came to know the old Cricket both on and off stage and Recently discovered his new surroundings. He's bigger than the entire world cricket. Oh, this is incredible. I don't know how they're going to stand these plush. Surroundings. Ha ha ha. Look at that stage 01234567889 rows of the furthest seat back is nine rows from the stage. That's perfect. That was all would use. That was the nice thing about the old Cricket man. That was a wonderful old theater was that the intimacy with the audience was the you were talking right to them. They were right with you. And now this is still a gorgeous new theater and they're still right lie with no seat is further than 9 was back. That's incredible a comfortable seat in the cricket. Well, there's a switch that has wonderful is that old theater was for actors because the audience was so close. I sometimes worried about the audience a little bit your knees would Head of the Patriots in front of you, but the seats these are real live chairs. The floor isn't sticky. Well that just could be because there haven't been any people in here yet, but then carpet doesn't get sticky. This is this is fine. Wonderful. Oh acoustically this is this is perfect. You can you can talk you don't have to shout and you can be heard mommy mom or tralala. Tralala. She offered her honor. He honored her offer and all the night long. He was honor and author. This is after heaviness the road to that heaven has been an expensive one back in 1976 when Carol Ann McKay first mentioned the Hennepin Center project at a figure of two million dollars her businessman husband Harvey Mackay told her she was crazy. But the artist just became more determined to refine her idea toward a workable proposal to provide a nucleus place for Arts organizations throughout the city a place. Hopefully where artists of all working in any area performing our Visual Arts any need of information. They could find it here. There will be resources very All resources here also, it's a central place for to perform. So that neighborhood groups downtown will be able to Neighborhood groups in this in all parts of the city will be able to come downtown have their place on our little Broadway do shows in the small theater that is designed to be a community-oriented theater. There is that it's on the bus line. Everyone can get here. The elderly can get here people on low incomes can get here. It's intended to provide that kind of access to to high quality Innovative Arts. It now appears her concept emerged in the right place at the right time by 1977. McKay had managed to pull together diverse Arts organizations business representatives and city planners like John Burke to form Hennepin Center for the Arts. I think it in a way epitomizes what we have been trying to do for a long time there and that is to have a diverse group of individuals. Taemin activities it has you know, in addition to the Cricut theater a number of other facilities in the building which will bring a really a wide wide variety of activities and people coming to these activities to the to the Hennepin Avenue and and and above all focus on entertainment. The center has been mentioned with increasing frequency as a keystone in the plan to upgrade Hennepin Avenue its significance in the total package is reflected in Hennepin Setters. $480,000 Community Development block grant awarded last year along with $300,000 from the US Commerce Department Public Funding for renovation also has come from the Minnesota historical society and the National Endowment for the Arts just as the public sector has found appeal in the Hennepin Avenue Rejuvenation angle, so to the private contributors and no doubt both sectors have taken comfort in the Hennepin Center administrative organization the board members alone could Sighs a list of the who's who of Minneapolis Financial circles board president Bauer Hawthorne of former officer of the Minneapolis Star and Tribune company has marshaled his downtown Council and the Chamber of Commerce for continued support during Hennepin centers development. He assembled a fundraising team headed by Dayton Hudson Corporation President. Steve poizner that high-powered group has managed to obtain almost the entire amount of the money necessary for the renovation about four point seven million dollars in just under a year Hawthorne maintains that by securing the funding up front in a clear break with most nonprofit capital projects Hennepin Center as a landlord organization and along with its tenants stands to gain in the long run. The number of people start. I believe with the attitude that all Arts organizations are deadbeats and that they never pay their bills and that they're always out every year for Grants to keep them going. I have been involved with a number of Arts organizations that operate That way but I would like to have an example of where Arts organizations can be can pay their own way with the contributions. Of course that they get through General support Hawthorne's optimistic projection is based on Hennepin centers policy to stay out of Arts programming his organization will remain strictly a landlord agency which owns and operates the building. Nothing more. There are a great many Arts organizations in town. We didn't feel that we needed to do attempt to superimpose another one. We have no desire to be competitive with Orchestra Hall or Society of Fine Arts or Walker Guthrie any of the other institutions and yet you say that there is going to be a theater in this building that will be available to groups is that not on its face programming? No, we don't think so because we will stick to be renting it to people who come to us. There is a new development occurring. I'm not sure that it's going to matter. Realize but the City Art Center is working on a program in which they would take over management of four or five or half a dozen spaces in town that were available for Arts performances. We've been talking with them the last few weeks and it's possible that they may take over the management of this theater in this building. There's an air of anticipation down at Sixth and Hennepin in recent days. It seems as if the planners dreams of renovating the Avenue are about to finally take shape not just with the Hennepin Center for the Arts opening but with a new funding package to widen the street and put in many plazas many of the small business people along Hennepin seem to be enthusiastic not only about the art center, but about the increased interest on the part of major corporations in the Redevelopment of downtown Minneapolis. However, one business owner has some reservations, he's Joel schinder. The president of Schindler's read more book store Incorporated a long time retail operation just across the street from Hennepin Center schinder claims business is good right now and it stands to get even better with the changes. So on the surface, it appears his comments aren't merely sour grapes. But Joel schinder is concerned about what he views as the political and economic Winds of Change on the Avenue. I think the people who are on the Avenue will not be here in five years, and I think that The businesses that are on the Avenue will find it. So expensive to continue doing business that they will be transformed or replaced by other businesses. And finally, I think the use of the Avenue will be different in that there will be perhaps more theaters would be perhaps more restaurants fewer retail outlets. That's what I think will occur with a narrowing of the street a widening of The Pedestrian Mall construction of new buildings and renovation of existing buildings schinder paints a scenario, which leaves Hennepin Avenue a combination of ownership by large corporate investors mixed with an occasional nonprofit Enterprise. He argues that Hennepin centers nonprofit status coupled with its prime location amounts to an economic loss for the city and the taxpayer but Dayton Hudson Corporation President, Steve poizner refutes hinders conclusions as they apply specifically to the history of Hennepin Center for the Arts. I would argue that the only alternative For that building would be that it would be torn down and I would think that that's a faulty argument if the building disappears ultimately something else would appear in its place, but we would have lost a real Monument a beautiful building and I think that balance is off against the question of whether it's profit or nonprofit. There's plenty of space and plenty of opportunity to build many profit-making organizations and and buildings on Hennepin Avenue. So I think there's plenty of room for both to exist side-by-side Stephen Posner president of the Dayton Hudson Corporation and key fundraiser for the Hennepin Center for the Arts Joel schinder. Meanwhile stands by his Viewpoint saying that while the planners in corporation Executives believe a street can be all things to all people. He will keep watching to see whether the renovation of Hennepin Avenue becomes in fact a transformation toward a regional shopping mall concept plugged into the Central City judging by the comments of Hennepin Center officials. It seems They too will be watching although Carol Ann McKay admits. Her original idea was somewhat prompted by a fear that the Masonic temple might be converted into an adult entertainment center. She also claims emphatically but it's not her intention through an art center to sanitize Hennepin Avenue. I don't want to see the Hennepin Avenue people disappear though. It would be a disaster if the king of me and mr. And mrs. White and all the kind of wonderful Hennepin Avenue folks who have personalities and Arc the characters of the street vanished. I really am quite serious about that. I'm an artist too and I would hate to whitewash the street. I think that would that would destroy it. I'd like to see a mix a real healthy II believe in the Minnesota State Fair. I think that kind of mix of people in all endeavors. Is a healthy situation and what about those who will be watching Hennepin Center for the Arts as a signpost of this Renaissance of the Avenue. Is there a crucial test in the offing again? Carol Ann McKay? I think we've already passed the test. I don't think Dave McKay would have purchased the lumber exchange a block away and would be renovating that if he didn't really believe that this street is already being recycled and on the way up. I don't think Oxford properties would have gone ahead with the city center over here. Unless they were quite sure that this neighborhood was going to be palatable to out-of-town guests coming to a very high quality luxury hotel kitty corner from here. I don't think Jim Binger would have bought Butler square and all the rest of the property on this block except for our little sliver of land if he didn't believe You've that this was the time had come for this area of the city to be productive McKay Ponder's those last few words. And as an artist with good reason during the past decade she and others have seen artists renovate decaying commercial properties only to be priced out a few years later by the spiral of land speculation. McKay believes the Hennepin Center for the Arts provided valuable lessons for Art's alliances with the business Community, but now she says artists need more now art has to take another look at business and say okay you guys we learned a lot but now we've got to learn how to have a piece of the action how to avoid being jacked out of this downtown area by high rents. We've got to learn how to invest our money sensibly how to co-op buildings ourselves how to afford a piece of the action. I do. Wonder if if you'll get the same kind of cooperation from a business community that also Wants a piece of the action suddenly you are almost competitors. Oh, no, I don't think so. I'm not talking about fundraising again. I'm talking about figuring out a way that coops of artists can afford to purchase and renovate spaces for themselves. It's not all bad. And I don't think it's compromising. I think it's smart period Carol Ann McKay a founder of the Hennepin Center for the Arts. There is a sense of self-confidence about this new art center perhaps because once polished it may prove to be a diamond in the rough of an evolving Hennepin Avenue, but just as importantly there's a self-consciousness about it because Hennepin Center for the Arts is going to be judged by Twin City ins by minnesotans in general by those in other cities who are going to be looking at whether such a joint economic and artistic commitment is worth attempting elsewhere. I'm Nancy Fusion in Duluth. The st. Louis County Heritage in art center is located at the Westerly gateway to the city's downtown business district housed in what was once a train station and commonly called The Depot the turreted building is a powerful visual symbol of the place of the Arts in the life and livelihood of that community in comparison with other Arts centers in the state. The depot has been around quite a while but in real time, it's just since 1975 that operations began their and not until just two years ago with the completion of the Performing Arts Wing that all its member agencies began to call the depot Home still the depot provides a model of an Arts facility Well beyond the Shakedown period Claudia hampsten of station WS CD at Duluth has a report on how it's working out has it been difficult for the original organizations which made a commitment to this building. To see the Depot in its many facets as it has grown and as the public concept of it has grown. I think it will always be some kind of concern for all the various members to make sure that they don't get lost in this multi-purpose Direction and understand their part of this. I don't think anybody at the front end of this project understood how multi-faceted it really would end up being but I don't see any problem with that because you are dealing with vital exciting people who have creative ideas and any time it turns into every but everything works just right together and everybody smile that one another you lose a lot of that Vitality. So I think the excitement of wondering exactly where you are and how you're going to fit into this. Adds to its Vitality. It doesn't hurt it at all. That was Depot director. Surely Swain prior to the depot the Duluth Arts Community appeared to be made up of established organizations representing each of the more traditional art forms, and it was these groups which nurture the idea of the center through years of planning the Duluth art institute the Chisholm Museum the Duluth Playhouse and half a dozen others. It was these groups which celebrated the center's opening at a Founders luncheon on May 5th 1977 Master of Ceremonies James Glassman. We have a number of toast if you will, I I see eyeglasses have been filled and I'd like to start them off if you will with a toast to a lot of good good friends a toast to our very very good friends that County commissioners of st. Louis. I toast to the County Commissioners that had the foresight years ago to help us get involved in this right Anderson Joe Crowley and dark Hall to the foundation's Target Blandon Burlington Northern Christian bush. And a hundred and twenty three other businesses who have contributed to the depot drive and among major supporters. I'd like to named Carolyn Marshall the Joseph's family Elisabeth Congdon, John Adams Dottie Congdon and Julia Marshall to all you good folks a toast. May you be back with more. Early on there was a fear that these established organizations having access to money and power and the advantages of physical presence in the building and membership on its board would somehow close out artists and organizations without those ties. In fact emerging artists and groups have become visible in Duluth for the first time and consequently have been able to identify each other and their potential audiences Susan McLeod is in charge of Depot programming. I get a lot of reactions like that from performers and artists people who before the Advent of the depot really didn't have a place we've had people who are unknown to each other who have for instance written original plays and then the other person writes the original music and then it's all produced. Now that is something that you needed to do it someplace and you need a place that will help you help you get it going you might be able to do all the production work yourself, but to build an audience for it and help you reach your Can help establish your credibility that is a little bit more difficult and it's useful to have some place to take your ideas to meet other other creative people and then to evolve something larger out of it for Jeanette Meyers a theater director and writer of non-traditional theater pieces access to the depot was a Lifeline. She developed materials audition actors and scheduled appearances for several small performing companies all the while using the depot as her link to the larger Community. My work is always pragmatic it comes about because there is a specific place. It's addressed to a specific problem in a specific setting and what I've done in the depot because the performance space outside the playhouse is quite small as I've worked for an intimate kind of audience relationship knowing what I was going to find when I get there and I don't work and develop something and then go try to find some We would fit it always comes about because there's some sort of avoid waiting to be filled or a sense that there's something waiting to receive the kind of work that I do. It's quite a romantic notion a train station with its purpose the dispersal of people ideas goods and services being transformed into an art center in which memorabilia of those early days is available for viewing and in which people with artistic ideas are now dispensing goods and services. But the train station Ambience leaves something to be desired Jeanette Myers Fields yet. It still has some of that quality of the train station about it in which it facilitates people arriving and leaving again and doesn't seem to facilitate hanging around to finish these kinds of things. It's sort of needs an extended waiting room for people who have one stay around till they get finished. I guess that's the nature train stations. They Are designed to get you in and out very fast. There's a little bit of that still left in the building. Maybe it wants places where people lingering finish what they have to do a small problem others like the facilities often Rocky Financial relationship with the County Commissioners have been enormous beyond the simple definition of what this place is as stated in its name st. Louis County Heritage and arts center. What it has become is a complex thing Depot directors Shirley's Wayne. There aren't very many of us around and so you can't say well the depot is just like ABC over here. There isn't an ABC over here. So therefore you have to try to explain it in all of its component parts and because it is such a complicated animal of people usually just kind of get a sliver of it and so it becomes a very difficult thing to explain the entire Center as a whole unit and how it impacts and what Entire direction is because it is multiple agencies. It is individual artist. It is volunteers. What else so it is a lot more it like say to the city of Duluth and the County Commissioners wall st. Louis County. It's a tourist attraction it draws people who are doing nothing, but pulling their campers come in and want to have some fun. It's entertainment. It is a tourist attraction to the man who is running the lumber store. It's an economic boom. The Arts in Duluth. The Fine Arts are a seven point eight million dollar industry is so that's that's a different audience then to the person that's employed. It's a major employer before the depot. They were like 12 full-time people in the Arts. Now, there's over 60 in this building alone. So to the senior citizen, it's a whole new life, you know, they we have assumed a senior citizen home right across the street here that this one lady in particular used to look at her window, and she said one day I didn't have any to do enough looking out and eyes, I'm going to go over there and do something and she has And she says this is her life now and this happens over and over to the schools were the home of a lot of their art programs to Parks and Rec. We Supply most of their programming to the library were a giant arm of you know, it depends on who you ask. Well we are so we're a lot more than just a home for organizations. And then there's the matter of what the depot could be Jeanette Meyers. I would hope that in the future that more people in the community would come to Taste its riches as you go to a gourmet restaurant moron, especially those plays, you know, where you go and you know, the food will be Exquisite but you're not allowed to select what you're going to have and you go there taking it on faith that it will be Exquisite and you have to trust that. Well, I would like the community to be educated to expect that and trust it that on any day. You could go there and find something would be absolutely in delightful, but you wouldn't demand to know what it was in advance. And so the depot is not a perfect place, but which artists or audience members would agree on the constituent components of perfection. Anyway, I'm Claudia hampsten in Duluth people in Southwestern Minnesota do not have an abundance of art centers and art shows but that does not mean the area is without dedicated artists Bob Myers of station K RS W in Worthington visited with To such artists Lauren and James and Jerry r.a.dickey who believe they have a special challenge to meet in the sparsely populated, Southwestern, Minnesota farm land. Lorna James and Jerry r.a.dickey share many feelings about living and doing their work in a rural area that area being Worthington, Minnesota located in Worthington Library. The Nobles County Art Center is one of the few places in southwest Minnesota that nourishes the Arts director of the center. Lorna. James is a fiber artist the Arts Center not only displays art. She says but the center also serves as a learning facility for persons wanting to expand their artistic talent or for persons who simply want to learn how we bring in a new artist each month and we try to bring in a variety of of art types. Like we might have ceramics or fibers paintings oil paintings watercolor what have you but we'd like to offer the community. Many kinds of art so they can know that there's more than one one type of art to serve different people's interests. Right? Right because some people will be turned on by one thing and other people another down I think in Worthington. We're a little far from having easy access to Art and so I think it's really important that we bring it in we've brought in and held several workshops and we have had really good response people want to do things and we've had watercolor calligraphy batik fibers. And I thought one other but I can't think of it now and people were really excited doing it. And I think that's the more important part of an art center as opposed to paintings hanging on the wall. I think people like to get involved and know that they too can create director at the Nobles County Art Center Lorna James artist considered a new experience in the Worthington rural area as compared to the awareness of Art in a metro area, Jerry r.a.dickey paints wildlife and the Prairie is his home. His oil paintings are nationally recognized some artists might find that there isn't maybe a great deal of support for some kinds of things or maybe there aren't as many people interested in what they're interested in but the it's a challenge in other ways because there has not been in these these areas much of a history of Art. You know over the years there haven't been many painters here there haven't been many artists. This is a new country a hundred years ago when there wasn't much here at all, except Prairie the people who were homesteading and trying to establish Farms didn't have time, you know, they're almost their whole lives were consumed with just staying alive and and making a home here. So painting music sculpture fairly recent, I would guess this not too many years ago that maybe there were children here that had never seen an original oil painting. We have to remember that in Worthington. For example that there were in this general area. There was some population here before, you know around the 1860s, but with the Indian Uprising and the dangers of the frontier Worthington really wasn't populated to any Tenth this area until you know, the 1880s and there are a lot of people that this is almost within their their memory. So we're looking here at something that was Wilderness two generations ago Jerry r.a.dickey who paints Wildlife particularly ducks and geese with oils ready key and James both wonder about the awareness of Art in southwest Minnesota and awareness of what they call good art. I think a lot of people are in awe of the Arts and you know, they kind of go down there maybe em look at a painting and are afraid to express an opinion about it. They kind of back off like, I don't know anything about it. I can notice in this area the The amount of interest that there is an art is on the increase. This is illustrated by the popularity of things that have been happening for some time Art in the Park the different exhibits that have come come to town. We're fortunate that we have a very aggressive local art center and these people for some years have made a sustained effort to help people to grow an appreciation of a broad variety of art media and experiences. So there's there's a lot of it and the kids in school to are receiving many more opportunities to experiment and be exposed to Broad kinds of Art and then not too many years ago even since we've been here. I've noticed a lot of people who have had become collectors, you know that want in their home original art or limited edition prints and who are not satisfied any longer with you know stuff from the furniture store. And that's knew I would I would guess that maybe even twenty years ago. The number of homes in this area that had original art would have been very minimal James and r.a.dickey say an artist in a rural area need not worry about stimulation or trying to find interest in what may seem so boring. Both artists agree art on the southwestern Minnesota Prairie is special the environment influences what you do I think being on near the lake, you know, kind of inspires you there are so many things in nature that you can take from and Put in your work. It it's neat. It's different than other areas. Like I was just in the Alps and that gave me lots of different Inspirations than I get here. When I was in the Alps. I did a lot of time looking at down at the ground and there are so many beautiful miniature little things as well as the grand Majestic things to inspire you so and around here. I was walking from us some Land We Own the other day and here was this role of gorgeous Queen. Anne's Lace just walked away from it over in Switzerland. So it's here too. I think that you have to take time out. to sit down and study the things around you if you're going to be an artist and it's a constant state of Discovery people wonder is the Prairie or out in an area like this stimulating place to paint and perhaps a person would say Jackson Hole Wyoming would be much more stimulating because everybody appreciates a snow-capped mountain or a cascading stream. Those are obvious forms of beauty, but for the artist, maybe one of the things that our artists can do is help people be aware of beauty and a variety of places and not just the obvious. The Prairie has many many fascinating things have tremendous and awesome Beauty but more subtle and this is a good task for an artist is to help people perceive reality in new ways and to help people see around them the daily Kaleidoscope of changing experiences that are that are magnificent. And the Prairie has all of this being an artist in southwest Minnesota may be a challenge and exposure may be difficult. But the point is according to James and rated key and artists success in a rural area depends on the artist will and dedication not on art centers. This is Barb Myers in Worthington for the last stop on our tour of art centers around the region today. We travel to the cities of Fargo and Moorhead those cities recently decided not to build an art center that included a bridge the center was designed by internationally recognized architect Michael Graves and some were disappointed when the project was shelved. One of the moving forces behind that project was Vince Lindstrom recently appointed to oversee activities in the US Office of Education and the National Endowment for the Arts Lindstrom spoke with Casey CM reporter Bridget Che about whether or not the community still need the center and the bridge. Well, did we need it if you if you walk down the street in downtown? Right now and you look at the brown paper on the walls with the going-out-of-business sale signs. I think the answer is yes, we needed it why I think we needed it as part of a vision. Okay. What can we be? I mean, where are we at? And where are we going to put our sort of our money and our heart and our future and I think that's why we needed. I caught that very early. Maybe it helped that I came from the outside in and I'm not saying that I was I was right, you know, because I think you have to be a part of the structure and I made so many mistakes in terms of strategy Etc. But yes, we needed it because the symphony and the Opera still needs a home. The plains art museum is in pretty good shape in downtown Moorhead. They have a you know, in fact for a small Museum in a plane's town. It's super but where does it want to go 20 years from now, where's the planes going to be at and I think The they were in a potential area over the bridge to become one of the 20 major museums granted a small Museum, but one of the 20 major museums certainly in the United States, maybe in the world simply because they had a an architect. That was just getting hot and in terms of Michael Graves and a lot of things could have happened it obviously didn't do we still need it. Yes, we do. I mean we're in Desperate shape. In fact, we're you talk about the 11th hour. I think it's beyond the 11th Hour. There's still time before we get into what the future holds for this this Center. I'd like to take a step back and look at some of the problems that that caused the canning of the plans for now. You said there were problems with strategy. Well, I think the number one problem was that we were never able to get everyone to see the vision of what could be people were asking the hard questions and And the hard questions are always important for the hard questions about how are we going to do it lay it on the table? Well, it couldn't be done because we had to catch the vision ourselves and I think we got a sold it to the outside world. And what happened is there were two strategies there was a national strategy because we couldn't afford to do this ourselves. We needed not only the federal government to help us do it, but we needed foundations Etc. So we had an outside of Fargo-Moorhead strategy and then an inside of Fargo-Moorhead strategy. Unfortunately, the bridge issue the vehicular Bridge issue became intertwined with this so that people say well you're pushing it down our throat and all kinds of of things that that concern neighborhoods and I happen to agree with that. I live in a neighborhood and I understand it's just that You had two streams that needed to come together at some point, but they weren't ready to come together when when it was sort of forced and I don't know the answer as to how it could happen. But I that was really the problem about the politics within the Arts Community. I found it varying times that that artists themselves felt that they'd been neglected in the planning process. It seemed like Arts administrators were in favor of it. Do you think that that within the Arts Community there are some people in collected or sure not only neglected. The problem is you need artists involved in designing we weren't ready to design yet. We needed the business Community the finances money shouldn't be that important but it was because you don't build a 10 million dollar complex in Fargo-Moorhead without the money without the kind of excitement most of the people with the money are not artists and they and I think in the back of my own mind at least I hope Those patrons you go back to Michelangelo's time the metal she's didn't know that much about art, but they recognized and exciting great artists in see Michelangelo. And that's where artists in the business Community sort of run in in in in a stream when artists A but we want to make sure that we have ours then they have to trust I think Arts administrators to say, okay, we can bridge the gap and you know, it was so funny. And in this position that I have because people kept saying well, we got a bridge to organizations and I just sort of been become known as a bridge builder. Well, I was never able to sort of build that bridge between the Arts Community which when you talk about the big four actually the big three because the theater has its home, but we needed the theater involve to so when you talk about the Opera this Symphony and dance going into a single facility everybody's worried about Turf and then they're worried about how they relate to. Say the business community that might Forge ahead and make a Convention Center got pretty complex. Uh-huh. It was a big project. We've been sort of talking about in the past though. What is the future tense? Well, I don't know. I think there are a number of people that are rethinking with what's happened in downtown. They knew for example that Penny's was moving and and I don't think that we anticipated that the number of satellite stores. We're going to close that quickly, but they have and I think downtown Fargo. It's pretty obvious that something must happen or Fargo is going to move to a different location than we have traditionally thought of as downtown Fargo and I'm not sure that that's all bad. But I happen to believe in a course City because we have we have the sewers in we have the telephone lines and we have everything there and if you can put that together with the needs for the Arts community and use the This is a catalyst both from a convention towards them. I draw you need people if you're going to have a core and and that's why I thought it was so important and I think everyone is all of a sudden panicking in a sense and saying we can't let it go down the tubes and can't let this Heritage. Yeah. Well Center. Well, right. I think they're then looking back to say. Okay. What are what are what are our potentials? What have been our strong suits? Well the vision the probably the greatest Vision Visionary project. That's hit Fargo Moorhead and a long time would have been the cultural heritage Bridge. There's no doubt about it. I mean I'm doing what I'm doing sort of because of the the Heritage and cultural Bridge. It's a it's an idea. It's a concept that caught the imagination of the whole United States. Unfortunately, the people that were the closest to it could see the complexities of it and it didn't happen in due time if we could have if we could be cutting ground right now for the Edge I think in terms of targets of price we could still do the whole complex or ten million dollars. Well, obviously, we're not breaking ground and we're years down the road probably so our people softening though. Oh Shooters, I I don't know I get there I get the idea that people are saying well, we've got a they're grabbing for straws now, that's not a good way to decide in the Bridge Project because I think the Bridge Project in my estimation could have stood on its own terms at any point. I think it was a good investment purely from a business point of view. It was a good investment from an art standpoint. It was the greatest and I mean if I when a person dies you can say well I got so much money in the bank or whatever but I think you want to be known for something. I mean, I made a major contribution. I it made a difference and the bridge concept could have made a difference and I say could have because I'm not sure that that those of us that that And sort of the leadership in it didn't make we didn't do the job and the bottom line is did you do the job even everyone can make excuses from the president on down and say well we didn't make it for this reason for that. I'm willing to accept like Harry Truman said the buck stops here. And I you know, I didn't do the job. I've been speaking with Vince Lindstrom the former cultural coordinator for the Fargo Public Schools. And now the brand new National special Council for the Arts and education. This is Bridget Shea in Moorhead. That's all for spectrum today Saturday October 6. Thanks for being with us a reminder that next Saturday. These NPR stations will carry a live to our phone in program live from the Oval Office at the White House that program will run from 11 a.m. To 1 p.m. National Public Radio. Susan stamberg will moderate the program during which calls will be placed to listeners around the country who will then have an opportunity to question President Jimmy Carter the names of the people who will be called will be drawn at random and if you wish a chance to Dissipate in the program send a postcard with your name address and telephone number on it to National Public Radio 2025 M Street Northwest. That's 20 25 M Street Northwest Washington DC to 0036. Don't send your questions. Just send your name address and telephone number to National Public Radio 20 25 M Street Northwest Washington DC to 00362 take part in that live to our phone in program, which will broadcast next Saturday from 11 to one technical director for spectrum. Today was Linda Murray on location recording for Nancy fusions report on the Hennepin Center for the Arts by Linda Murray post-production work on that piece by Steve Tibbets. I'm rich demon.