(00:00:00) Organic farming and overview is the title of a summary prepared by the Minnesota Department of Agriculture will hear from the person who prepared that summary in just a moment. We'll also hear from Lester fro rip. An organic farmer who lives near Morgan in Southwestern Minnesota. Finally. We'll hear from Russell Adams who was an organic Farmer for nine years in Kansas. Russ is now a soil biochemist at the University of Minnesota on the st. Paul campus. Marjorie Peterson is the principal author of the Minnesota Department of Agriculture publication on organic farming before the summary was prepared anyone interested in the topic had to contact organic farming organizations such as the organic Growers and buyers Association to find information, Maryland Larson is a member of that group will hear from her I ask Marge Peterson why the department prepared the (00:00:45) report we decided that not much was known about organic farming and we'd like to find out what was happening. Also the information that was available was sketchy. So there was no place for anybody to go and kind of get a good General. Review of on things that were happening (00:01:02) and in here you have about 45 pages in the summary included our names of Minnesota Farmers who are organic farmers and you also have a bibliography authors and titles and places where people can go to find out more. I want to talk to you a bit about the problem you had in locating information about organic farming. Where did you (00:01:22) start? Where did I start? Actually remember a lot of the information I got was well for Maryland through the organization and then I went to the Eco library in Minneapolis was extremely helpful and through the International Federation of organic agriculture movements in Europe. I wrote to them and ask them for people that I could write to for information. And so some of the stuff I did get was correspondence from Europe and the problem with that of course was that it's all in European languages and it was very difficult for me to get a hold of something that I could, you know, really use (00:01:59) braille and Larson. A member of the North Country Eco Agriculture Center in the organic Growers and buyers Association, which I suppose locally Maryland is one of the organizations to contact if people are interested in organic farming and I'm interested how that organization came about. (00:02:15) Well, the organic Growers and buyers Association was formed in 1970 Minneapolis, and we still have a post office box here nine seven four seven Minneapolis 55440. So anybody wanting information or a copy of our newsletter Sprouts can write that address (00:02:39) Marge I'm curious about the kind of reaction. The summary has gotten so far especially from Farmers have there been any comments to you on on the report (00:02:49) surprisingly everything I've had is good. Although I'm sure I'm not hearing a lot of the negative comments. People are I think people like to believe It but there's still a little (00:03:01) concern. How many organic farmers did you find in Minnesota or that you are aware of at least? (00:03:08) I didn't really research this. I don't think anybody really knows I'd guess there's fifty hundred. Well there really there are I believe 45 certified organic farmers the belonged to O GBA and that's just one of several organizations and we cover a five state area region and there are many I guess you'd call them closet organic farmers who have not want it to be alienated from their Community because some organic farmers have had to deal with ostrich being ostracized because of their practices. So I've talked to several farmers who use organic techniques, but don't go around shouting it (00:03:53) margin among the farmers you talk to for purposes of this report. I have the impression that a lot of them are farmers that might be considered large scale Farmers. They weren't by any means performing organic farming. Backyard or anything like that (00:04:09) hardly most of them were in the general area of maybe three to seven hundred acres and I think all of them also had Livestock on their Farm which is usually the manure is very important. So it's very important to have the livestock. Although it can be done without it. There's big ones in California some of the rice Farmers. I think I talked about in California or something like 10,000 acres. Mmm. There were a few that were the the landed van the family for years and years and years when the chemicals first came out they'd use it for a year or two and they just couldn't see any benefits from it. And then there were others that had grown up with chemicals. You know, the younger Farmers may be and probably in the last 10-15 years. I found most of those had changed they had in other words they'd use the chemicals for 10 or 15 years and then decided that you know, they weren't doing the land any good and weren't doing the family health any good and decided to make a big change one of the farmers. Lester for what? Who is in towns in South West Morgan Minnesota? Okay. He's he was the first of his community to use anhydrous ammonia. He was educated at the University of Minnesota. And he was the first to quit (00:05:21) Marge Peterson the principal author of the Minnesota Department of Agriculture summary of organic farming with her was Maryland Larson of the organic Growers and buyers Association will be hearing from Lester fro up in just a moment. We should mention that the summary prepared by the state is available to anyone who is interested in it. You can write to the Minnesota Department of Agriculture 563 State Office Building in st. Paul. Once again, that's 563 State Office Building in st. Paul and the zip code is 551554 the summary entitled organic farming and overview Lester fro rip Farms about 600 acres near Morgan in Southwestern Minnesota, which as we have heard is in Brown County just about a hundred miles south west of the Twin Cities in the Sort of River Valley less started as a conventional farmer with a good measure of success and he saw no reason to change because he was using chemicals in 1959 Les said he had a beautiful Field of Corn where he had done everything right as he put it but in about mid season the corn plants started shrinking at the result was a yield of about 25 bushels per acre Les said at the time he was probably using heavier applications of fertilizers than his Neighbours that growing season caused him to begin investigating the organic farming movement when I talked with less recently. I asked what sets him apart from farmers who use commercially prepared chemicals on their land. (00:06:46) Well, it's a different way of farming. I'll say that we have to pay attention to different things than they do. Probably they they have to pay attention to how to calibrate the sprayer and how to get on the exact amount of chemical and those things along with proper tillage know we ourselves. We don't have to look into these details of how to apply chemicals but we have to attend more to the idea of how can we till the soil to control the weeds? And how can we tell the soil to make more nutrients available to the plant without all the extra fertilizer? So you see it's a paying attention to different things and I don't say that we're doing any more or any less than they are. You know, it's just attention to different details do most organic farmers Lester have livestock (00:07:42) operations to because of the necessity for manure fertilizer. (00:07:47) Well, it seems that's the way it is then I don't know that it's necessary to have livestock. I think as we learn more this new technology of how to farm naturally we're going to be able to do it without livestock. (00:08:01) What will you do for your fertilizer or nutrient needs in the soil then without the use of animal manure (00:08:08) we have many acres of this farm that have never received any manure. (00:08:13) Give me a fairly simple description last year of rotation of crop rotation, which I imagine you use that you would use to help build up or preserve nutrients in a particular field. For example. (00:08:26) Well, we're in a tough situation as far as crop rotations. We live along the Minnesota River. So we never know necessarily what we're going to plant until we're ready to plant but if the situation Presents itself that we can plan ahead to a certain amount of time when we try to you know, follow corn with soybeans or small grain and then and then plant oats maybe the next year olds are wheat and then seed some Alfalfa and somewhere along the line. So we'd have something like a corn and soybeans an old sand and hey rotation say over a four or five year period (00:09:08) and with that sort of rotation you've been able to maintain pretty good yields, especially on Main crack cash crops such as corn and soybeans, for example without the use of fertilizers. (00:09:20) Well, yes, we've been able to maintain pretty good yields, but I wouldn't say without the use of fertilizers. We do use some natural fertilizers and some of these new products that are coming out too. To fix nitrogen in the soil and to an especially the foliar sprays now a trace minerals (00:09:39) what are some of these natural fertilizers? I've heard of some products. For example, I don't know if they're fertilizers necessarily. I've heard some organic farmers talk about the use of diatomaceous soil and various other (00:09:51) products. Well, there's quite a number of natural fertilizers like you mentioned the diatomaceous earth is is part of a humate material that can be found in Colorado or North Dakota or Texas or New Mexico. There's a lot of that used to meant used in Minnesota, and we've used some and probably still will weave. And there's also natural rock phosphate and gypsum sand. green sand and hybrid tight and there's many different materials that probably contain only one fertilizer element like green sand is potash carrier. (00:10:33) What is the major difference between some of those natural fertilizers as far as you're concerned and in some of the commercially prepared fertilizers? (00:10:41) Well, the main difference between the natural and the commercially prepared ones are That the natural ones are just dug out of the ground and ground up and they could be mixed together with something else that's handling the same fashion to make a blend of materials. And most of the commercial fertilizers are are materials that are dug out of the ground and ground up and then treated with some acid or chemical material to remove part of the the original product and then shipped on to the farmer. And there are many times the part that is removed is something that we can really use in the soil for instance in rock phosphate. That's it's flooded with sulfuric acid in the manufacturing process and that and the sulfur is taken out. And that's something that we can really use in the soil. What kind of (00:11:44) cooperation did you get Lester from the various groups of people that you may have contacted. I'm thinking specifically of the Agricultural Extension Service, perhaps the county agent or those two sources of any use to you when you became interested in organic (00:11:59) farming. Well, I in my particular case, I know the county agent in my county is is really, you know, helpful and sympathetic to anybody that comes in and wants information. And as far as his personal out knowledge is concerned. He's really helps but they're so far is very little information on the state level to the extension service as far as research or data comparing natural against chemical or even showing the natural farmer how to do things so that he doesn't have to experiment himself and that's what we're doing basically is doing When experimenting and I'm kind of curious about the sorts of misconceptions you (00:12:44) encounter when you tell people that you're an organic farmer. (00:12:50) Well, I guess as I think of that down I feel the basic misconception is that they feel this is going back a hundred years, you know this natural farming thing. And it really isn't that I feel it's a new technology. It's something that's coming in the future and and we have so much scientific knowledge today and more being learned all the time and with the benefit of the computers and the modern laboratory equipment that that we can really Analyze our soil and tell exactly what it needs and be able to apply these things with a natural product and it's a completely new technology and I believe this is the basic misconception that most people have (00:13:37) and it does not necessarily mean farming with horses either. (00:13:42) No, I don't think we'll ever go back to horses unless there's some major catastrophe in the country. And I know the statement has been made to that. You know. Well, what do we do if we go back to Natural farming which 50 million people. Are we going to let starve? Well, I would say to just turn that around if we keep on farming the way we are. Tore the whole world will starve. I know some people in southern Minnesota and (00:14:16) especially Southeastern Minnesota just across the state from you are extremely concerned about soil erosion problems. And I imagine the problem is pretty severe in parts of your farming area to and I'm wondering if there is any way for you to judge. How this problem of soil erosion has been controlled on your farm as compared with some of the other Farmland you see around you (00:14:41) or we've seen a real positive thing along that area in our own farm and one of my neighbors Farms who happens to be my brother-in-law we both use more or less the same tillage methods. We use chisel plow and and glowing disk and we've seen this time after time on our Farms after heavy rain will we will have very little water sitting on our Fields. Well on the neighbors there will be puddles all over we've seen it time after time, but that's not to say that we never have water standing. There's a limit. You know, how serious is the problem of soil erosion? Well as we talked to the soil conservation service and others that have monitored these things and have measured them as to the amount of soil being eroded. We get the general idea that I don't average condition. They will say we're losing two bushels of dirt down the streams for every bushel of corn produced. And it just can't go on that way, you know, there's a point of no return and we see that you know, if you drive through the country and and where there's some little Hills in the fields in the spring when there's no cop on them. You can see they're bald the black soil is all gone. You see it just clay sticking out and that's that's what's happening. You see the black soil is all gone and those clay Hills don't produce anything (00:16:09) really Lester fro rip an organic farmer who lives near Morgan in Southwestern Minnesota many people in the organic farming movement are considerably less kind towards the Agricultural Extension Service and University scientists. Then Pro rip, in fact some proponents view the experiment stations and agricultural scientists in this country as the enemy that attitude irks Russell Adams junior. He is a soil biochemist at the University of Minnesota in st. Paul. And before that Russ was a farmer for nine years in Kansas. He is no enemy of organic farmers. He will assure you he is a scientist and as a He is a bit skeptical of any answer. That sounds too simple. When I talked with Adams recently. I asked him about the criticism that people interested in organic farming must rely on information from other countries is the information available in this (00:16:57) country. I would say yes it is there definitely but if you look through the technical literature, you're likely not to find it under the title of organic farming. It's going to be under hummus organic matter soil fertility related to that and there's scads of information available. It's true that a lot of us Works been done in Russia and Germany, but much of this has been published in English. So the information in the technical sense is readily available (00:17:28) even here in Minnesota. For example, only. Yes, just out of curiosity rust. So that would be at the mount st. Paul Campus Library presumably or in the in the departmental libraries (00:17:38) as far as I know. So all of these symposia that I'm aware of are available in the st. Paul Campus Library the The difficulties I encounter is to find it in the indexes and that is a problem. (00:17:50) I suppose that leads us to the difficulty of defining the phrase organic farming because as I have become more familiar with this, I realized that there is not a single type of organic Farmer. They seem to range across a wide spectrum of spectrum of farming techniques. Is that your experience? (00:18:08) Yes, it's there's a whole spectrum of of definition of organic farming and acceptance of the very practice various things. I think we have to recognize it as a system or a way of life in addition to the way of farming and so you can have all sets of extremes as far as my own definition. I look at it on a person who substituted a lot of labor for Capital inputs a person whom is Not using synthetic or I don't like the term even synthetic but synthetic chemicals and it's a person who is is really organic farming is livestock depended even though you individually may not be growing and raising livestock (00:18:56) and yet there are organic farmers Russ. I'm told that use commercially prepared fertilizers and still call themselves organic farmers. I'm wondering what you know of that and how you suppose they consider themselves organic farmers. (00:19:09) Well, actually when I was farming I was an organic farmer by the standards of the day and a certain amount of organic fertilizer on the inorganic fertilizer was acceptable and as a Saul chemist, we would dispute the the notion that there's much difference between an inorganic and organic form because the plant does take up a specified form of the Of the nutrient and it's going to be that form when the plan takes it up regardless of the form you added to the soil (00:19:43) about the comment that the inorganic fertilizers are commercially prepared fertilizers are treated by a chemical process that can take out some of the potentially useful aspects of the nutrient content. (00:19:57) Well, if there's some some Trace substances available and original material and might be possible at this is true. Generally the companies try to add these back in the area where the product is sold and they know they will get some benefit from that. But yeah II when I was farming I like the old 20% phosphate and I used a phosphate recommended by the the organic people as a source one of the concerns that I have in this area though. So for example, it's one of the dichotomies of the philosophy. Nitrate, which is literally what you're buying when you buy some of this Peru Peruvian nitrogen has some problems when you use it in soil and this sodium nitrate from the organic sources. No different than if you bought the chemical sodium nitrate, but they accept it because of its organic Source, but they do not accept for example Murrieta potash which is literally processed physically without any chemical processing in some cases are in the majority of cases depends upon the mind and this is unacceptable yet. You're at a potash how it has some of the same problems as the sodium nitrate is would not be nearly as soon as much of a problem. Mary would encounters many problems. So there's a there's a dichotomy of philosophy here that's difficult to evaluate something. (00:21:35) I know to rush that a question that occurs to me is why is it necessary at all to commercially treat or commercially prepare fertilizers? We've heard that a lot of the nutrients can simply be mined and bagged perhaps blended with some others. What is the advantage of commercial preparation (00:21:56) and makes it more available to plant for one thing. The other big Advantage is that it gives you a smaller quantity to transport which is it at Great expense in the manufacture and sale of the chemicals. (00:22:14) Well, I'm thinking for example that commercially prepared fertilizers require energy to be prepared. And if they're available naturally that is if they can simply be put in a bag why couldn't we use them that way instead of using the energy to (00:22:28) process them. That's a good point. And as you mentioned it it brought something to mind. This is (00:22:35) On (00:22:35) the area's, I guess that I have some concern with the organic farming idea Rock phosphate. For example, if it's used on assets files may be fairly available in calculus oils. It's not available unless you do some manipulation to in the soil and actually the manipulations you are getting farmer you does is to encourage the microflora to produce the very acids that are used in the manufacturing process to dissolve The Rock phosphate. So it is quite similar in that regard, but the problem that I would see your concern of have you have to use so much more than material and this actually is a resource that is limited. I don't know is that we can afford to use that much material and maintain soil fertility. (00:23:29) We have heard that organic farmers can compete with farmers who use commercially prepared fertilizers and Chemicals and so on. Do you have the feeling rust that in the long run organic farming may be a better way of treating the soil. (00:23:44) Well if we were Able to limit our population certainly the some of the ingredients that they speak about such as rotations. Would certainly sustain the soil and maintain production over a long run if we can keep our fertilizer source of fertilizer. So this can be true. Also, one of our problems in maintaining soil fertility is that we're in exporting nation and we have exported those nutrients. They must be replaced homework. (00:24:22) What about crop rotation? I have had the impression that there has been a general decline in interest in the practice of crop rotation, especially with so much continuous cropping that we see in some growing regions Red River Valley. For example, where continuous wheat is not uncommon or in the southern part of Minnesota where continuous corn is not uncommon. Has it been a decline or has it just changed? (00:24:46) Well, I think it's just changed. I would say that rotations are probably less common today is as they have ever been a you mentioned the point of Wheat and this one of the difficulties you get into when you talk about rotations because much of our wheat growing country. What do you rotate would simply be another small grain, which is not really a legitimate to rotation because that is really all that is adapted to those areas unless we get into irrigation. Otherwise, we have potentially a corn soybean rotation, which would Supply some of the nitrogen of corns needs not as desirable or rotation is where you can include livestock feed such as your Alfalfa and this is why I say that it's dependent upon the organic farming is depend upon livestock because it's the only way you can effectively use the Alfalfa Jude grill or the other legume that you grow to sustain the nitrogen in the soil. (00:25:48) When you mention wheat farmers and you wondered what the possible rotations are I was thought that Alfalfa is always a possibility in most of the growing regions of the country and yet we just don't see much Alfalfa raised in the Red River Valley anymore. (00:26:03) Well the Red River Valley wouldn't be a good example of this but if you went further west in the more arid country Alfalfa would exhaust the moisture eventually and have to stop growing it until you got a better moisture balance, of course the other thing in this regard we still produce more hey than we can utilize and it's a commodity that is very in a bad. Hey year. It may be very profitable in other years. It may be very very unprofitable in terms of a cash crop. I think this would be y Alfalfa has is less popular, but actually Alfalfa in the country is increased in Anchorage considerably (00:26:45) that's interesting that point that we have more hey there. Can use I suppose a part of that equation is the fact that many small-scale livestock operations. It would use hey have simply gone out of business because of consolidation Farmers tend to be either livestock or grain Farmers these days is that part of the problem there? (00:27:04) Oh, I would say possibly not the efficiency of livestock production has gone up quite a bit. So in some cases particularly with dairy, you have fewer animals producing the same amount of milk and dairy products. So requires somewhat less. Hey because of this and it's bite me that the feedlots have Reduce somewhat the consumption of hay in the beef cattle, but I had imagined efficiency production is more of a factor than and somewhat reduction is reduced numbers of livestock (00:27:38) in talking about the corn soybean rotation that you mentioned Is that real hard on the land when you raise row crop year after year, I have the impression that soil erosion is enhanced by that and it in the long term that can be quite a high cost on the land that is difficult to quantify. (00:27:59) Well, let's start from the last part of your question is difficult to quantify the actual cost here. But as far as as the erosion is concerned, I'm not so sure that it's a necessarily product of the type of crop is grown as much as the farming practices. The larger tractors and equipment is not to compatible with the old-style terrorists and as a result many of Was Terraces were abandoned without appropriate new terracing systems taking their place? And so erosion has again become a big problem in this country. There's no question about that. (00:28:41) And is it simple enough to say that erosion soil erosion, especially the sort of serious soil erosion that Southeastern Minnesota residents face could be drastically reduced by organic farming (00:28:54) techniques. Certainly, as you incorporate more residues me leave more residues on the surface. You would reduce the amount of erosion that takes place you brought to mind on the fervent previous question something that I think probably a majority of people don't realize and most people might not even believe but in fact in terms of increasing hummus content continuous corn under a high fertility status probably does a better job than any farming practice that we can follow rotations tend to maintain but it's very difficult unless you manipulate or add excess organic materials to actually increase the (00:29:37) organic matter almost any American University that yields an agricultural research is open to the criticism that it simply isn't paying much attention to small scale farming. We've heard some criticism that there isn't much information available from American universities on organic farming and here's a An opportunity for you to respond to some of those (00:29:59) criticisms as far as the availability of information in the response of the University will we will give information to inquire in the order of what that he requests other words of an organic farmer requests information to help their system farming we would certainly give it in the context of what they has. So we respond to what we're asked to respond (00:30:24) to their much research in the area though as much for example is in Germany or Russia (00:30:30) in terms of the system. I would have to say no and I'm not sure that there's any research in Germany or Russia in terms of the system, but in terms of the specifics, yes, I think there's research major activity in our department is that this is the research with the application of sewage sludge to soils. The research with manure and perhaps has declined some and I think are probably would be some benefit in resurrecting some of that research and looking at it in perspective to some of today's problems, but certainly the research with manure in the early part of this century was extensive and this material is still valid as far as application today and then the case do (00:31:18) you find a renewed interest or a greater interest? I should say among Farmers you talk to until called organic farming (00:31:25) techniques. I would say in Minnesota. We are an ideal situation for this kind of philosophy to grow and what we finding in Minnesota is a tendency towards polarization, which I don't see why I should be (00:31:46) explained that for a minute. I'm curious about that (00:31:48) remark. Some of the conventional Farmers actually are If we want to use the confirm word convention somewhat antagonistic towards some of the organic farmers. I guess I would agree. Although I don't really feel there's any such thing as a closet organic farmer. I think that's supposed to their General philosophy (00:32:07) Russell Adams soil biochemist at the University of Minnesota in st. Paul. We also heard today from Marjorie Peterson, the principal author of the Minnesota Department of Agriculture roads summary organic farming and overview from Maryland Larson of the organic growers in vires association. And from Lester fro rip, an organic farmer who lives near Morgan in Southwestern Minnesota. Once again, the mailing address for the publication from the Minnesota Department of Agriculture on organic farming is 563 State Office Building in st. Paul, Minnesota ZIP code 55155. This is Dan Olsen.