(00:00:00) The Metro Council was established in 1967 principally as a coordinating body to provide for the orderly development of the Twin City metropolitan area in 1975 a land use planning. Act was passed which required each of the old with local units of government to draw a plan that conforms to the Metropolitan systems the highways the airport sewers and so on and the council's role is to receive these plans and compare them to our overall plan for the metropolitan area. And so we end up with a metropolitan area that everybody knows what everybody else is doing and it's done according to a common plan to achieve that orderly development. (00:00:45) Let's begin by talking about what Neil Pierce started his talk on and that was the General topic of local initiative. He talked about neighborhood groups getting together and starting small shopping center areas or just enhancing their own existing neighborhood shopping areas rather than succumbing to the big mall idea. Are there groups like that going on in existence in the Twin Cities metropolitan area and what if anything does the Metropolitan council do to encourage that? Sort of thing. (00:01:20) Well, we there certainly are a lot of very strong neighborhood groups. And I the philosophy the console is that they really are essential. We're finding out more and more for example in her housing applications where we've indicated that much of these subsidized housing should go in the Suburban area. Everybody should have their share we're finding that the neighborhoods are very very concerned about that because they feel they want to stay in their neighborhoods because that's where their political base is. That's where they do want to shop and live and they have a great concern over some of our policies which we incidentally in the process of amending but there are very strong neighborhood groups. And I guess the problem as far as I'm concerned is providing the proper incentives incentives. Certainly. The financing is a real problem for developing the type of neighborhood shopping area that mr. Pierce's talking about you've got he's talking about a number of small. Is and locally run locally owned going back to many of the old type businesses that we remember in our hometowns. I think it's a great idea. But the people that do that do have to have the incentives and they don't have the marketing techniques of the shopping center. He's talking about they don't have the capital available and probably many of the management techniques that are necessary in that type of thing. (00:02:45) What about the the banks and their attitudes toward this kind of development in the Twin Cities area Pierce mentioned in his talk that maybe would local Bankers ought to do is think more about bailing out small businesses and pay less attention or at least not as as much attention as they once did to or as much attention as they did to large organizations and the bigger firms in our area. (00:03:12) I think banks are very sensitive to the problem. But on the other hand, they also have very strict regulations on how they land out their depositors money. I think there are other ways. I think for example the creation of the city Venture corporation, which is actively involved in attempting to revitalize certain areas. We have talked for a long time about the creation possible creation of the reinvestment fund and the Citizens League has recently come out with a proposal that we Levy a portion of a percent on the sales tax in the metropolitan area, which would fund all of the systems of met Council Transit sewers, but there would also be a balance left for the creation of a fund that could be used to help start the type of thing the mr. Bierce is talking about where would that money come from gumbo sales tax in the original sales tax in the metropolitan area? There are lots of arguments with their plan but nevertheless that is a type of thing that some people are thinking about (00:04:16) you mentioned a venture Corporation or some sort to talk a little bit about (00:04:20) that. Well, I am certainly not an expert on it. But City venture did have a representative at our state of the region meeting some months ago and my understanding is that it is an organization of businesses started by principally Control Data who are interested in revitalizing the central cities and neighborhoods and they are coordinating and attempting to see that that is accomplished in there in Minneapolis. And they're also working in Toledo. I understand now and it's just really getting off the ground, but they are they are going in the tempting to accomplish that through the use of private capital or and private expertise. (00:05:06) I was going to ask you to talk a little bit about what the council is doing to encourage the assessment of the strengths and weaknesses. In other point that pierce makes is strengths and weaknesses of different communities so that they could then go and and take off and do some development on their own but I think that may be assuming that the council thinks generally along the lines of Neo Pearson. So maybe we should talk a little bit about where some of the points of either concurrence or a difference at least as far as you're concerned with some of these things that Pierce's talked about particularly with regard to shopping in a major metropolitan area. Well, he comes (00:05:46) down fairly hard on the some of the major shopping centers I have Lee I don't buy that I think you go from where you are we have had and have had to have had considerable development in the mid vault in the Suburban area. Everybody can live downtown Minneapolis and st. Paul Particularly in our energy situation now, it's essential that those people do have some place to shop on the other hand. The council's policy is for population containment development continuously from the core City out and we have said that We have drawn a urban service area line within the seven County area. And one of the basis of our whole plan is that we will not provide services like sewer or perhaps roads in some cases or other services outside that line and we're saying look between on the year 1990 all of the population growth that we're going to have can be handled essentially within that line. If you can go beyond that, you're going to have to use a larger lot and less dense development and you are not going to get those Urban services and that's our our general plan for the containment of the increased population. However, the people who are in the suburbs do have to have a place to shot. So there's nothing inherently bad about a large Shopping Center in the suburbs, but certainly where it's located as to how its serving the population and the problems he talked about the social problems that sometimes Rise additional service cost all those are very important. So you have to look at the at the type of development. It is very carefully, but certainly we've got to have them just to serve those people that are out there and as matter of fact, so everybody doesn't have to go to the same place to get those (00:07:41) services. So the council's message. It sounds like to me is to potential developers that unless you build within the confines of limits we've set up we're not going to provide the services that you'll need to operate. (00:07:57) Yeah, we're saying to just as he indicated in this cornfield example, if somebody wants to go out in a cornfield and the Very Fringe of the seven County area that they can do it within certain restrictions, but they are not going to get the urban services that are provided within that (00:08:16) line. Another one of the things that pierce talks about is the mandatory participation idea of having all merchants in a particular area take part in certain kinds of marketing of that of that shopping area and there are a number of areas that the come to my mind that are in the Twin Cities. There's the Grand Avenue section in St. Paul. There's the st. Anthony on Main area which might fall into his General category of an in city shopping area. I'm wondering if you can tell me whether or not those areas have this kind of mandatory participation and and whether or not you think that that's the best route to go for this kind of a kind of an operation and development. (00:08:59) Well, I would be very surprised if they had mandatory requirements in for example in Grand Avenue. I think that hopefully if you can get something going like that, there's enough enthusiasm so they'll individually do it. It's a little different in a shopping center because in fact they are Generally started with a major tenant and they do kind of control what's going to happen. And you go in there certainly under certain conditions in your lease, but the small operator in a large shopping center has the tremendous advantage of the traffic being generated by one major tenant and the controls that they yield to I think it's felt or a small price to pay for the fact that they're in a center that they know was going to generate a great deal of business for them and think it's a little different in the neighborhood and I think too. To put on the mandatory controls for conformance to the plan for the neighborhood in all respects at least as mr. Pierce talked about it. It seems to me it would be extremely difficult. (00:10:02) Perhaps I hesitate to say this because Twin City and sometimes are accused of sort of wide-eyed optimism, but I'm sitting here thinking that perhaps things are a good bit better shopping wise for merchants and consumers in the Twin Cities area as far as neighborhood shopping centers in areas then say they are Audi store on the west coast. What's your perception of that (00:10:28) know? I am one of those Optimus I absolutely believe it's true. I also believe that we have the An outstanding metropolitan area really from all facets. I think we're very economically sound. I think it's an extremely attractive area. And I think the development has been controlled by the local units of government through their zoning ordinances and they've all been awake in really eager to develop in a way that is going to continue to be a attractive metropolitan area. (00:10:58) How will it stay that way? How can people keep it that way? (00:11:02) I think by continuing to be aware of what is happening. One thing that's very very important. I feel is are working with for example business and industry so that we know what their plans are and they know what we're doing. And so when we see for example that somebody's talking about a large Plant in X location if they will talk to us and we can talk to each other then they can find out maybe that there isn't going to be any sewer service for the development area around them or perhaps the plan for the highway is not going to go into effect for another 20 years that type of information then we're also working very Strongly now on establishing economic data for the metropolitan area. So that everybody is going to know what The Debt Service indicators are where we're starting maybe to get in trouble in our public expenditures for Metropolitan systems. How much bonded in debt there is in the metropolitan area individual school districts in town so that everybody has a good idea where we are in accommodating the public services and the private services that are required but I think it's just maintaining that constant awareness of what's happening with everybody (00:12:20) and the Metropolitan Council can serve as a sort of focal point for individuals and neighborhood groups that are continuing to want to continue to maintain their their neighborhood shopping (00:12:30) area. I think that's our principal real. I think it's vital for us to do that and it's vital for us to do it in a way that these people in the neighborhoods know that we're there and we're not there to come down on them where their to work with them. It's not only a neighborhoods. We're not just talking about Minneapolis st. Paul you go to an area like Coon Rapids. There's no downtown Grand Rapids. And this is true of many areas the metropolitan area. There's no downtown. You have a shopping center that maybe was built in 1950 and as a cluster of growth around it you have another area where another shopping center was built may be several miles away and there are neighborhood groups neighborhood problems in many other places other than just the core cities. (00:13:21) And so that those groups can use you as a focal point to what kinds of things can a group like that get from the Metropolitan Council. (00:13:31) Well, we certainly have a tremendous amount of information available. We act as the Metro HRA which coordinates the Section 8 housing in the metropolitan area where involved in the possibility of some large family housing in the Suburban area, which would be subsidized. Plus there's just a vast amount of information that's available to them as statistical data and that type of thing plus we also administer the grants the aging and to the Arts and that type of thing which is involved in the neighborhood (00:14:09) to but you have some staff who were in a position to serve groups or individuals absolutely cities. Yes, let's go back and talk for a little bit about the energy situation and how that's going to affect the Twin Cities area as far as planning things like shopping centers people in the metropolitan st. Paul Minneapolis area can use the bus service and get around pretty well to do their shopping if they have to and they may have to very soon. But what about people who live in Burnsville or Eden Prairie or Coon Rapids where the bus system either is sporadic at best or non-existent. How are those people going to get around and is the Met Council doing anything or thinking about doing anything with regard to those those communities? (00:14:55) Well, we I've had a number of demonstration projects and I shouldn't say we the operating arm of the transit of in the metropolitan area is the Metropolitan Transit Commission. John Envy is currently the chairman and we approve their budget in their plans that they have for the region must conform to our transportation policies, but they are the operating arm and they have a number of demonstration projects aimed at determining or solving exactly that problem. Some of the demonstrations have not worked out too. Well, but that's the type of thing. We're trying to get a handle on now is how we are going to serve those people course that again is why? It is essential for them to have shopping centers or places somewhere in these various localities in the suburbs where they can in fact do some of their shopping. (00:15:49) What were some of those are are some of those demonstration units as you (00:15:53) call. Well, we had one to the zoo and we had one to the ballpark. We had a cultural route in Minneapolis st. Paul which I guess I felt was a very good idea and I guess I was one of the few because that did not work out at all. We have a couple of demonstration projects and white bear that I've been going on for the last couple of years. (00:16:17) So these would be bus routes which would be laid out with specific stops in mind right for probably particular it not a group of people necessarily but a group will General group with a common interest need to go to one or more of those places. Yeah, that's (00:16:33) right. And then we have obviously we're involved in attempting to demonstrate. Demand responsive systems that's the way barrier system where you can call and get a van or or a small bus this type of thing. We're just attempting to determine where the transit commissioner is attempting to determine what the best way is to serve the needs of the transportation needs and obviously all of us have got Energy number one in our thinking though with necessarily that way very long ago. (00:17:08) So these projects are still just really if not in the planning stage still only in the demonstration stage and the you're keeping tabs on how they're working out. Yes. That's right. Okay. I'm trying to think of other points that we might cover that pierce covered and you were taking some (00:17:25) notes next week (00:17:27) as we listen to him or there's some things that he said that occurred to you that were either good ideas or not. So good ideas for the Twin Cities area. (00:17:37) Well, I guess I felt that he was. A little naive as far as the financing. I there's very little in his speech about financing he was talking about what should be done but still the economic incentives are terribly important and I really didn't see any solution for the neighborhood Shop with a neighborhood center in how they're going to overcome. Let's face it the expertise of that big shopping center in their power to draw on their power to Market and the I think he's absolutely right. I've seen it in a number of places where the small businessman is in real trouble when the huge shopping center goes just outside of town. Because they obviously can tough to compete with and the economies of scale are very difficult to overcome. but I think that there are ways that can be done in this mentioned a couple. I can imagine his response when he talked about the shopping center in the cornfield being a threat to National Security, but I guess we're all almost to that point. I think that. the idea of retaining the strength of the core city is absolutely vital to the retaining the strength of seven County area. Absolutely. We can't we just cannot let the center City's die and I guess that's pretty much what you think too.