(00:00:00) 15 minutes after 12 o'clock in a couple of minutes. We'll be talking with Isabel wolf about nutrition literature. She'll be giving us some reviews. In fact in front of us right now. We have about four books on the table and it will be getting to those in just a moment and then Isabel will be taking some questions from listeners to a bit later in. Midday. We were looking for a noon temperature reading from the Twin Cities and did not find one. Although one should be on its way very shortly. But we do have a five-state weather story that gives us an idea of what is happening to our weather patterns around the region an east-to-west cold front is moving south across Wisconsin, southern Minnesota and South Dakota and that front will continue its movement this afternoon. There are some widely scattered thunderstorms expected to redevelop ahead of that front elsewhere. It will be clear to partly cloudy high temperature readings this afternoon will range from the upper 60s over Northeastern Minnesota to the 90s in parts of Iowa South Dakota Southwestern Minnesota tonight, the cold front will move. Of through the reward the rest of Wisconsin. It'll be through all of South Dakota, but will it will extend Northwest through the Western Dakotas? So they'll be getting some of the effects of that cold front and again scattered thunderstorms will occur near the frontal line. So low temperatures this evening will be in the 40s to the 50s tomorrow. We can expect some thunderstorms and rain shower activity, especially in The Dakotas and Minnesota. It should be generally partly cloudy in Iowa and Wisconsin and high temperature readings tomorrow once again will be in the 70s and 80s. We'll take a look at more weather information just before 1 o'clock following news headlines Isabel wolf has become a regular on midday mainly because listeners like to ask her questions about nutrition and also because she has many things to say about nutrition literature, but unfortunately Isabel we have never had a chance to devote a half an hour to a discussion of nutrition literature. We won't today either by the way, we won't devote an entire half hour. We'll devote about 15 minutes and I think I'll just let you two. Take off because in front of us we have four books that you have brought to our Saint Paul Studios, and I'll give the titles as you stack them up eating your way through life by Judith Workman and the Cambria new that's brand-new. That's good. Then we'll be we'll be getting a jump on everybody the complete Gourmet nutrition cookbook that is apparently a collection and then the new nuts among the berries is the third work and finally everything you always wanted to know about nutrition by dr. David Rubin one of your favorites all (00:02:33) better. I'd also like to add another one that we don't have a copy of right here, but one call feed your kids right by Lyndon Smith is a very popular television pediatrician Well, these will the four books the new nuts among the berries. I've brought primarily because in the back of the new nuts among the berries is a list of controversial and non-controversial nutrition books. I guess I brought it in anticipation that somebody might call about one of the many books that are on that particular a reference list, but the the four books I'd really like to talk about are the Reuben book which incidentally I understand is an alternative selection for one of the past months for the book-of-the-month club a one of the major book clubs in case you're wondering this is the same. Dr. Rubin who has listed to his credit all the sex books. I look there are three sex books and to Brand books. He sort of seized on to the high fiber diet as a way to and I quote him save your life and now he's off into nutrition. I think this book was particularly interesting in that. Every review that has been written about the book with the sole exception of one has been very negative. And even the group that are described as the nutrition establishment of which I guess I have to say I would be part as well as some of the most outspoken people from the consumer nutrition movements have been very very negative about this book. The inaccuracies in the book are absolutely unbelievable. You're talking about reuben reuben book. Yes (00:04:15) during the if I know that this came up in a conversation we had with you a couple of months ago on midday and there were a couple of callers who noted the Reuben book and it was then that we we first became aware of your feelings about dr. Reuben. So work in nutrition, what are some of the examples of the (00:04:31) inaccuracies? Well, for example, here's a quote direct quote. Actually. You cannot eat any natural food without getting a massive dose of vitamins. Well, there are lots of natural foods that that Contain very minimal vitamin value. For example cucumbers green beans which one of the most popular green, you know vegetables consumed in this country iceberg lettuce people call that packaged water, which that's that white color lettuce beats, for example, zucchini a lot of things that we view as which is certainly what good additions to the diet. They will be trace minerals in some of them and of course the fiber and roughage component, but in no way are these things to quote him a source of massive doses of vitamins and minerals. He also goes on a number of chapters about the the RDA values which he has greatly misinterpreted. He describes them as the amounts you have to have in order to (00:05:33) prevent. These are recommended daily (00:05:35) allowance recommended. Yes, they're only recommendations, but he views them as what you were supposed to quote unquote get daily and interestingly enough he mixed. Of the RDA values with the u.s. RDA which are the ones used for nutritional labeling and selected. Whichever was the highest (00:05:52) value. Let's distinguish between those two now RDA is well as compared to (00:05:57) the RDA values are values which are established by the food and nutrition Board of the National Academy of Science. And we have some new ones due out in you know, within the month the revised every few years in relation to the increased knowledge of nutrition and nutrition research. They were intended initially as guidelines for determining the proper and balanced diets for groups of people like the army of people in hospitals and they take into consideration the wide range in neutral nutrient needs between various people within the population. I think they cover the needs of 99.5 percent of the population and in most nutritionists recognize them is greatly exceeding people's needs. Okay? So, what are these? U.s. Rdas. Well when the nutritional labeling format was approved they had to have some kind of values against which to measure the nutritional value of the food. Well, they went through the u.s. Rdas and picked out the highest values in any age sex category and said that's the u.s. RDA value. So the really kind of values for a non-person you'll have the B vitamin requirements for males in the 18 to 21 age range who are the highest consumers of food in the population. The iron value will be that for Women Within the childbearing years, which again would be the highest value. (00:07:21) So what would be the danger of somebody like, dr. Rubin simply taking the highest number of those two categories and using them is that simply inaccurate and misleading or is there some greater danger to (00:07:32) that? Well, what what really is the problem is that he accuses the FDA of being in cahoots with the vitamin and mineral manufacturers to establish these things at the highest possible level. And I guess what really troubles academic nutritionists and public health nutritionist is that he come mixes up both of them and really miss uses these values because they are not intended to serve as guidelines for the nutritional value of a specific individuals (00:07:59) diet. Do you have a feeling that that is widely misunderstood by people ice as (00:08:04) well as some of the students in nutrition courses or people who show up as as potential students with these courses. (00:08:10) I think I know people who will look on a cereal box and see the RDA and we'll say boy. I need so many milligrams of iron today and this is how much I'm getting in this box and they will base their judgment on that sort of (00:08:21) thing. What I would hope that they would look at it and say well this can contribute to the eye and I should get during the day and this cereal that has 25 percent of the RDA is perhaps a better selection than one that has only two percent. All right, you know, (00:08:36) all right. Well, we're still talking about dr. David Rubin. So book another (00:08:40) kind of interesting thing. He has a chapter on the composition of food. And this is one quote some sausage makers dumped over 80% fat into hot dogs. You couldn't even make us a hot dog that had that much fat in a and again, I think he must have seen somewhere that the in terms of the caloric sources that fats account for 83 percent of the calories in the hot dog. But his comes out like a compositional statement. In fact, it would be like butter. Yeah. (00:09:10) Yeah. I see what you (00:09:11) mean. I don't think that he really did too much real research and coming up with this information. And unfortunately, he has people would not a lot of people would not look at the end of the chapter to see what the references are because it's really very much lacking in in reference material (00:09:31) and yet I have the impression is about that book is (00:09:32) popular unfortunately, so (00:09:35) we do know book for book sales figures. I do not I have not seen it. (00:09:39) Apparently it was doing quite well in the beginning of one of the people One of my friends in the Twin Cities is gets all these, you know Publishers. So I guess you know, what is the best the best sellers from the Publishers and book sells point of view and it was doing quite well, I particularly liked his analysis and I shouldn't say like it because it's certainly nothing that it is all valid that the sugar is like cocaine and he's got down this empirical chemical formula like, you know, see 12h 31 in a no and if he points out and he said it's just the same as sugar which is c12h22o11. No for sucrose and he said the only difference is that there is an an while now, that's crazy because no way was the with the structural formula be the same and they were even different number of atoms and he then goes on to say that we consume up to a hundred and seventy five pounds of sugar a year. Now. I'm not saying that we don't need to decrease our sugar consumption and that we should look very closely at the many sources of sugar in the diet, but his figures such as Absolutely was just (00:10:44) laughable. Yeah, that's a much higher figure than I have heard cited by a number of other sources about a hundred twenty pounds per year per person is one that I have heard. Well, you don't think too much of dr. David Rubens book any of the materials you have with you other. (00:10:59) Well, I've got I've got one book that I really have just just received last week and it's a very brand new book out written by a woman who is not a in nutritionist. She has a PHD in cell biology from MIT her husband. However is one of the research nutritionist at MIT and my first impressions of the book and the early Pages was not very favorable, but as I have got into the book, I think that this book really does have some Merit for the lay public. I was under the impression that the book was intended for use in university courses, and I really don't think that would except for the most Elementary course that it might be too good, but she does have some very good practical advice. On a shopping on sources of nutrients one rather interesting thing about this book is that it has in it the 1979 RDA values which to my knowledge have not yet been published. Apparently. She must have had some sort of pipeline to this. Oh, well, yes, some of us are wondering about how she got the sure but at any rate, I do think it's a book that that would be certainly a book that Library. I would like to see libraries in the Twin Cities stock. I think it's a paperback that markets for about $10 which unlike I guess might be something that would stop some people (00:12:21) eating your way through life site titled (00:12:24) A No, Nonsense guide to good nutrition for all ages and all eating Styles and she comes to grips with the that the problems of fast food eating and families on the run and people who would travel a great deal and how to supplement the kind of meals you might find on airlines. I had one very good. And she said of course Everett you should call and order a vegetarian meal from the a lines. If you know, you're on a you know, long travel schedule. She's not that the book promotes vegetarianism, but you'd have certain nutrients that would be supplied in those diets that you might not get with the some of the things served in the Air (00:13:01) Lines Judith. Workman is her name. Yeah. Alright next we have the complete Gourmet nutrition cookbooks. That sounds very serious. It looks (00:13:10) serious. Unfortunately, I guess this is a disaster from my point of view at any rate. This was written by a woman who is a registered dietitian and much to my astonishment is a nutrition consultant to a major National Organization. Not a nutrition organization exactly, but it's written by somebody who was very concerned about eating habits of the public and she very much embraced the dietary goals of the Senate select. Committee the now-defunct Senate select committee on nutrition and wrote the book to promote these goals. The book is kind of a collection of recipes and menu planning. However, the worst part is in the beginning of the book where there are an incredible numbers of Errors, which would show that she really is not up on contemporary nutrition knowledge to get a little technical. He has a quote a saturated or unsaturated fat is determined by the amount of carbon in chemical combination with hydrogen and oxygen in the product the more carbon the high of the the saturation on the other hand, unsaturated fats contain more hydrogen and oxygen now any high school student who's just completed a biology course where they had a little bit of biochemistry would realize that that's a very ronia statement and then she goes on to say for example that B vitamins prevent colds and you know statements that are really kind of far out. (00:14:42) Call Linus Pauling on that one. (00:14:44) You interested. Yes, I could take that up now, but at any rate does some of these technical errors the errors and nutrition information a very serious especially for somebody with the kind of credentials. This woman had (00:14:56) I'm surprised to hear you say that because in the past you have been critical of people outside the nutrition establishment to use the phrase and here we apparently have an example as far as you're concerned if somebody who has been erroneous in inaccurate and that would tell me I guess that we must be careful but this is a difficult Choice the consumers must (00:15:17) make this was very difficult because you know, it would appear that this this might have been a very good book and I did write a review of it for one of the technical journals and it was it was very difficult to have to write a very negative review for a book written by somebody who would essentially be a colleague (00:15:35) and you brought also the (00:15:38) I want to talk about the book. I don't I don't have with me because this is another one that has just been Published. All right A Man by the name of Linden Smith who is a very very popular television pediatrician has just put out a book called feed your kids right now that might sound like something that all the mothers will want to rush out and buy to help you with with meal planning with with developing foods that children find children who are eating problems who have eating problems would find acceptable. Well the book for my in my point of from my point of view is very much Miss titled because it doesn't really deal a great deal with information on what to feed the child but it is instead a type of let's see orthomolecular medicine Treatise where the book goes through all these various types of medical conditions and describes treatments based upon a massive doses of vitamin supplements. Hmm, you know, we kind of all the Linus Pauling approach to pee PD and pediatric problems (00:16:46) it doesn't deal with menu planning as such or selection in the (00:16:49) supermarket der. Hmm. And I think that it is a very unfortunate book from the point of view of there are two different things some of these vitamin supplement treatments that he prescribes would result in a child getting 10 to 20 in some cases 50 times the RDA of various vitamins every day for six weeks and some of these are vitamins which could be stored in the body like vitamin A which can cause toxic poisonous effects. I was really astonished when I when I saw this also, this is another book that really lacks references. And the references that are in there, do you include a lot of very questionable books? I understand that he was on a media tour of the country throughout most of May actively promoting this book. And in fact, I know that there's going to be a review of the book published in tomorrow's St.Paul morning newspaper. All (00:17:50) right, and this was Lyndon Smith London Smith feed your kids, (00:17:54) right? Oh wait for also, he's against a pasteurized milk. He said it destroys the nutrients in the milk. Well, it may destroy a little bit of vitamin C, which is only there an infinitesimal amount but it also destroys those pathogenic bacteria that could cause tuberculosis brucellosis undulant fever. He is also opposed to chicken or an eggs that are produced by chickens that have been, you know raised in these sort of artificial environments where much of the poultry production takes place which is one reason why chicken and egg prices haven't skyrocketed like other He feels the chickens have to have sun in order for the food to have any value that they produce which there is no scientific evidence to support that. All right, and I think he has a few good points. Oh, he also has a vitamin and mineral supplement dose which he recommends in the third chapter and the amounts are way in excess of the rdas and he too just like, dr. Rubin misinterprets the rdas he calls them quote amounts needed just for survival. (00:19:01) Hmm. Well, alright some question marks about that book in your (00:19:06) mind. Yes. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend this book to parents. I really don't the Final Chapter has some good suggestions about trying to get the child to eat whole grain foods for breakfast and fruit for breakfast and small servings for young children. This is one big problem. A lot of parents make expecting that the child can eat too much food at a seating but all the misinformation in the rest of the book. The vitamin supplement treatments do not negate do not would not would prevent me from making a blanket recommendation about this book. (00:19:38) All right. Now you have saved for last the new nuts among the (00:19:42) berries, but well now this is really this is a really a re-run of another book that was out early. This is actually 1977 and this is essentially the history of food fat ISM in the United States a subtitled how nutrition nonsense captured America I seen Richard Nixon is even one of the people listed as contributing to the information but I did bring this book along primarily because there is a very good bibliography of controversial as well as recommended books and nutrition and whenever people call us at the University wanting to know is such-and-such a book a good source of nutrition information. And if it's one, we've not heard of we flip on into the controversial section and frequently, this is where we'll find. Some of these books listed (00:20:30) it's a long bibliography (00:20:31) to it is it's about ten to twelve me see goodness. Yeah about a 10-page bibliography and only one and a half pages are the factual or what would be the recommended books (00:20:45) and this is a book by Ronald Deutsch. Yeah, (00:20:48) uh, he's somebody who is not he is not a nutritionist. He is a journalist, but you again you'd find a forward in the front of his book by very reputable nutritionist. (00:20:58) All right now just to recapitulate briefly. The one you like of the four or five that we have talked about eating your way through life by Judith Workman, right wur TMA n and you did not like the (00:21:10) others. No, I would not recommend the others. I would think people could do a little bit better. I would spend the money on the other sub with on fruits and vegetables or something. (00:21:21) All right, we're talking with Isabel wolf who is an extension nutrition specialist from the University of Minnesota. And now we are going to give the listeners a chance to Call you and ask a couple of questions. We have about or 10 to 15 minutes. I would say for questions if you are available surely find very good will give out the number in st. Paul. You can call us at 2 2 1 1 5 5 0 if you have a question for Isabelle wolf that's 2211550 listeners. In other areas of Minnesota outside. The Twin Cities can call toll free to ask a question and that toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 hundred six hundred 52970090 Isabel that you have been paying attention to the issue of nitrites in bacon. And I remember a news item from just perhaps a week or two ago that the USDA still studying this issue and we certainly have not heard the last of this and they're still trying to find out if there is a substitute for (00:22:23) nitrous. Yes. In fact your has been a major research project that has been going on over in our department and we Have a seminar recently conducted by the people who have been doing the work and they seem to have come up with some formulations which involve the use of potassium sorbate and much reduced amounts of nitrate. And I know that at that that was about three or four weeks ago. They were looking anticipating any day that USDA was going to publish some new regulations about how the nitrites were to be produced within the categories of food products that now contain night. Right. I really don't have the figures close at hand. I do believe that we can be looking for some information on this which should be out soon. I have one thing that I've come to realize over the years that it's sometimes these government reports are heralded for a like a 12 months before they finally arrived. (00:23:24) All right, we have callers on the line who are waiting to ask questions. We'll go to the first one good. And Isabella's listening. Well, I wonder whether I could find out number of titles of books that you can't pan. You can't say that this person has made terrible mistakes and interpreting RDA nutritional standards and things of that sort. What I would want is someone who has consistently correct in what they're talking about rather than my having to read a book. That's wrong. (00:24:02) Well, I guess right off the top here again. There are there are different books at various levels. And I think of the newest ones that have come out this book by Judith Wortman certainly looks as though it would certainly fall into that category of being technically correct. There is a forward to the book in which it's right. Well, it doesn't endorse but there's an indication that the person who is now the director of the Bureau of foods that FDA has read commented and made suggestions on the manuscript. So to me that's a pretty high level recommendation. Ronald Deutsch also has a very good book out that's in paperback called the realities of nutrition. That's a 1976 date we have is a very good book which is put out by one of our local publishing companies called West publishing Understanding Nutrition. It's called by a Whitney. I guess I would suggest that if you'd be interested in receiving a bibliography you Call my office and leave your name and we could send you out a list of recommended nutrition books. And I guess I've make that offer to add please don't Deluge them this afternoon. But if you do want to call and the number is 3 7-6 3401 that we could send you such a list. Now. You won't fly we put the workmen book on it because it would be a book that I would consider something. That would be good to read. (00:25:28) All right, we have other questioners waiting will get to the next one right now. Good afternoon, Isabella's listening. Hi. I have just recently read a book by Carlton Frederick's about the nutritional approach to breast cancer, but he really talks about more than breast cancer but fibrocystic disease and apparently he has treated hundreds and thousands of people with this nutritional approach and I wondered if he were familiar with the book and if you were what you thought of it and secondly, what do you feel do you feel any animosity or antipathy towards? the Prevention magazine (00:26:05) Well, Carlton Frederick's is one of the people whose name appears most frequently on the list that we have of controversial books in nutrition. I certainly don't want to spend time just panning somebody in attacking the lack of credentials. But Carlton Frederick's is not viewed by people whom I would view as legitimate nutritionist as being a nutritionist at all. In fact a doctor Victor Herbert who's one of the more eminent nutritionist in the United States has described him and at trials as a charlatan or a pretender. He has apparently gone off his hypoglycemia tack, which was his big thing for several years and is now onto this nutrition to prevent breast cancer. You know, it's very interesting some of these people who are more opportunistic in your nutrition teachings will seize upon some incomplete research and develop that into some kind of a book and we've seen the same thing with some of the Books and someone I know you bring up another another source that the doctor Herbert and others would consider to be a major source of nutrition misinformation in America. And that's Prevention magazine. I subscribe to it and I guess I want to tell you the reason I subscribe is not because of the information that's in the air but be so I know the feature articles that they have had within a specific month because sure as anything we're going to get calls from people out in the community who want to know if taking this B vitamin will cure the incurable. In fact, that's a typical type of title B vitamins have cured the incurable and you'll find ref. You'll find the interestingly enough in their references to technical research articles. In fact, one of the people in our department who has done some work with vitamin E and rabbits with muscular dystrophy and they were going to ride up they did right up his research and my comment to him was well they must have A lot of rabbits who read Prevention magazine because that would only applied to rabbits and I guess I would caution you about taking too seriously much of the writings of dr. Fredericks in point out again his lack of credentials. And of course when you listen to him on the radio, and he does he's pretty much on the lecture circuit. He sounds like a, you know, an md-phd nutritionist, you know of the impeccable credentials when in reality his degree is in Communications, and it's the response of female listeners to his radio (00:28:40) programs. Wow, almost an indictment. Well, we have other callers waiting. We'll go to the next caller. Good afternoon Isabella's listening. Yes. I have two comments. I'd like to make first is I've encountered an excellent book on diet and nutrition and its title is simply diet and nutrition by dr. Rudolph Valentine and it has it's written in language that Not ridiculously scientific yet. It does manage to communicate a lot of good knowledge. I think and second. I'd like to ask Isabelle what she thinks about the potential for contamination of various foodstuffs raised for humans with various agricultural chemicals, which are in Great Wide use today in agriculture both in the meat industry in Minnesota and in the vegetable industry in Florida, Texas and, California. (00:29:33) Well, first of all to your comment about dr. Ballantine's book, I have not had the opportunity to see his book. I was on a program with dr. Valentine back in November of last year. This Governor's conference on nutrition. When I at the last minute had to substitute for one of the people in my department. One of the things that I thought was rather interesting about, dr. Valantine presentation and He was discussing his research was that he goes back apparently to ancient India for his some of the scientific the information that he presents a scientific information in his book. I guess I would have to go back and look at notes that I took at the time but I felt that there were some things being said as positive fact which were based upon as I said the ancient Sanskrit and we in contemporary nutrition science. This is not the way that that information is generated by going back to these Anyway historical sources. I can remember him describing some incidents where heating honey causes people to become sick who consume the honey also talking about some trace minerals as being essential and I guess I really would have to go back and look at my notes. I would be very interested in looking through his book, but I have not received a copy or have not actually seen it. I believe it's available from a Institute here in the Twin Cities now to get around to the agricultural chemicals. First of all, it is not an area of expertise. However, I would like to point out two of mine. However, I would like to point out to people who are listening to the program that there are relatively strict and stringent government regulations, which relate to the use of many of these agricultural chemicals. There are things like the Journal of agricultural chemicals. This is only one title. Food and agricultural chemicals Journal this types of things and most people would not realize the degree of testing and regulation which relate to these things that cannot be applied willy-nilly to any food crops. And I also receive a publication weekly call Food chemical news, which duly notes the seizures of things which have you know, excessive amounts of various products still on them. I think it's a there's a long way to go in some of this regulation. I think we have to look at the benefit risk situation, especially if we are going to have the level of productivity of foods in this country that we have to have. (00:32:14) All right, and we have other callers waiting. We'll take the next question right now. Good afternoon. Isabelle wolf is listening. Hi. First of all, my understanding about Carlton Frederick's I think he was specifically asked the question what his degree was in and he answered it was a common misconception. His degree was in Communications it was In public health, but that's just an aside. (00:32:37) Well, I guess my information is from an article that was published by a doctor or a nurse and who's a professor emeritus at the Mayo Clinic (00:32:46) right while I don't necessarily know whether his in, you know, I kind of information goes back and forth and how we both we both are a different things and okay, I seem to detect a an attitude about mdrs and rdas and and what you're saying that I've seen before and as being that anyone who recommends amount of vitamin intake greater than rdas are at at best foolish and at worst Reckless and I'm wondering how you would or how traditional or this nutritional establishment that you put it would answer the research which seems to show that needs for particular vitamins can vary from 5 to X or amino acids or minerals and how you would reconcile that with your with your position about the rdas. (00:33:40) Well, first of all, you mentioned the MDR as the minimum daily requirements those values have not been used by the government for I would say perhaps almost 10 years. However, it's still interesting to find these minimum daily requirement still showing up primarily on bottles of vitamins supplements. They are indeed the minimum daily requirements and the amounts that you have to have to prevent any kind of a deficiency symptom. Now, if you get a hold of a copy of the RDA book when it comes out or even the current one, you will find that in determining values for the rdas for nutrients that the individual variations are taken into account. So that when you do and as I said, they're based upon the needs they will cover the needs of 99.5 percent of the population and they are generally considerably in excess of the needs of individual people (00:34:37) and how would the reader know this though Isabel (00:34:39) that you'd really have to read the rationale and the philosophy behind the development of the rdas. And again, it's an academic kind of piece of information that the public generally doesn't have and I guess my overall advice to people would be to eat a widely balanced diet from as many foods as possible in moderation and you know, watch the calories sugar fats eat a lot of fruits and vegetables whole grains, but we do believe that the certainly the RDA values are all that that most people need to have (00:35:16) we have a time for about two more callers and we'll take those questions right now. Good afternoon Isabella's listening. Yes. I'm calling from st. Cloud. And I'd like to ask two things. First of all, I'd like to know what Isabella thinks of the nutritional writings of Michael Jacobson and and some of the other people from Center for Science in the public interest and is specifically as regards to Sugar fat and salt content of the American diet. And also what about his and their opinion about the links between the food industry and the Food and Drug Administration and the various regulatory food Regulatory Agencies. (00:35:53) Yes. I know. I know Michael. In fact, I've been on programs with Michael. I certainly would agree with Michaels concern about improving the nutritional value of the American diet. And there is no question that there are many people in the population who consume excessive amounts of sugar and particularly as the sugar will displace more nutritious foods from the diet, for example, drinking pop when maybe skim milk would be a better choice again. We have a lot of obese people in this country and one of the major contributors To it would be fat because it's the most concentrated source of calories again, there seems to be General agreement that people among, you know with a among the nutrition establishment with Michael that we do have to be somewhat concerned about the consumption of salt in this diet, especially where people are consuming a lot of like salty snack foods, which are really not a wise nutritional choice now to get to the question that you have about the FDA and and academics and Michael. I think that that the here now we get away from areas where we actually have factual information and I think that some of the blanket indictments that are made about people who are authorities within narrow areas within in food science and nutrition are sometimes somewhat questionable. As I said though, I would certainly support the overall goals that Michael has had related to improve I think that people like Michael do serve a rather necessary function in society in that maybe some of the food products that are marketed would even be worse. If we did not have watch dogs like Michael around (00:37:37) very good we have time for one more question as about before we run out of time today on midday and we'll take that question right now. Good afternoon Isabella's listening. Thank you. I have a question and a brief comment. The question is where does Adelle Davis fall in deutsche's bibliography and make the comment first is on the use of nitrates. It was said in the hearings last this last year that if those were withdrawn from use it would destroy the, you know prepared meat industry. Well, it happens if if you look at foods that are prepared within States and sold within State they often do not have these materials in them. The effect would I think not be to destroy the prepared meat industry but to decentralize it which in the long run might be a very good and economical thing now I wait for the (00:38:37) answer. Okay quickly because I know we are running out of time Adelle Davis as unfortunately. I have I say unfortunately as I hope you haven't read a lot of her books and have followed a lot of the information in there, but she is not generally recommended as a source of valid nutrition information. In fact some of the in advice she's given out in some of her books that would relate to two children have actually caused the deaths of children (00:39:02) and she listed in the bibliography. (00:39:03) Yes. She is she is listed in controversial books in nutrition, Adelle Davis gave a lot of you know vitamin supplement treatments for diseases some of which were very dangerous. But the one incidence I know what they were deaths related to the use of potassium iodide for babies with colic now the nitrite issue. I know it is possible to prepare things like bacon. Without the use of nitrite we can go back to all salt cures. The problem really is and a lot of people don't realize that it's the midnight ride incidentally nitrate is not used anymore. But nitrite does prevent the germination and toxin production by clostridium botulinum, which is you know, one of the deadliest toxins known to man and and the real thrust of the research is to try to cut down the night try to the smallest amount possible and use in conjunction with some other compounds which will have the similar effect a gun on preventing the outgrowth of these spores and toxin (00:40:03) production and if meat products could be used within a period of three or four days if you (00:40:07) could freeze them, but then you get into this and these Major Distribution problems and problems which would greatly increase the cost of these these products. So it's a much more complex issue than simply having these products prepared locally within (00:40:22) State. All right. We've been listening to Isabel. Wolf and extension nutrition specialist from the University of Minnesota who every now and again works up the energy and the courage to visit us on midday and take calls and questions from listeners. Thanks again for joining us Isabel. And thanks also to all of the callers who had questions as usual. They were very good. (00:40:42) All right onto the target target to which is good. (00:40:44) Right and I hope you we can encourage you to come back and perhaps a couple of months or so.