(00:00:00) Today on midday Our Guest is Al Johnson, the director of the Minnesota Energy agency Johnson is a native of Minnesota from Albert Lea as a matter of fact before becoming director of the energy agency. He was vice president of Johnson Brothers Incorporated of Litchfield. That's a heavy construction firm that designs and builds coal terminal facilities. And since his appointment Johnson has become a principal in one of the most hotly debated issues of the day the energy future. He was named energy director by Governor Al quie in early February in the midst of the most severe winter in Minnesota History since then Al Johnson has been confronted with shortages of heating fuel inventories the controversy over the nuclear accident at Three Mile Island the debate over the future of nuclear power in our state as well as the concern over dwindling supplies of diesel fuel for agricultural use and the increasing demand for gasoline just a few problems to handle and in about 15 minutes. We'll open up our telephone lines at NPR for listeners around the state who have questions for Al Johnson, but first, we'd like to spend some time in our St. Paul Studios with you Al asking questions with me is mpr's Pat Kessler who covers energy issues for Minnesota Public Radio. I know that you have to leave our Saint Paul Studios about 12:45, preferably earlier l so that you can meet a group a special task force as I understand it that is looking into the diesel fuel supply situation in Minnesota. I'm curious to know what is the reason behind the special task force being in Minnesota and perhaps you could comment to as part of that L on the diesel fuel supply situation. Okay. The group is here primarily in response to the fact that these emergency rule number nine that President Carter initiated effective week ago. Friday does not appear to be working and we have continued shortfalls for the farmers. The task force is made up of members of USDA of the dot and the president's office. And I believe from Stuart eizenstat self is also they have been in Nebraska and are coming to us directly from Iowa and we will be the last state to just looked at these three states. We're going to be here for just about two hours and we'll meet with the with us and go over our statistics where we are and go up and talk to the governor. And then I guess we're going back to Washington to make a report. I heard yesterday in the news Al that get E oil and Amica oil to I believe is going to freeze deliveries of petroleum deliveries to Minnesota. I believe if I'm not mistaken so that they can reorganize their distribution and I'm wondering what that was all about. Do you have more information on that? Getty said that they are not going to for a week. They are not going to supply anybody except agriculture. This is an attempt on their part to comply with emergency rule number nine. Amico is to my knowledge still has not decided on how they will implement it. They are debating that in Chicago at their corporate headquarters. And that's the course compounds the problem because under a roll of emergency rule number nine. We've the state has effectively been taken out of it as far as diesel for agriculture. That's now the president said that the supply system will provide a hundred percent of need to egg and that evidently is not working earlier the earlier this week. The president said that he was going to ask refineries to boost gasoline production. And this was viewed by some I read as perhaps impairing the production of diesel fuel supplies. Is that your assessment of the situation as it is it I don't know the basis of that. I have not been able to find out through our own research this point what the basis of that particular statement was because it flies right in the face of what do you e has done within the past week two weeks. They called all the To refineries in this country together 42 of them and told them really by a week-by-week basis what fraction they would follow from now until the end of the year in order to build our dishes are distillates or middle distillates our reserves from the present 218 million barrels to the 240 million barrels that they feel is essential for us to survive the winter. So in order for to do that, they have actually told in a book in a sense each separate Refinery superintendent exactly what fraction he will follow so I don't know the basis of the president's comment and then face of that these are complicated times finally before we get to Pat's questions earlier. We saw a news item from a congressional committee that was holding hearings that Minnesota was said to be one of the five worst states in the country in terms of the availability of gasoline supplies in this was a d OE spokesman who made the comment. Do you know any more about that remark? No. I have no idea where that came from either. Because really our most severe problem at least in terms of inventory today is distillate gasoline seems to be in reasonably good Supply at the moment. Now that does not necessarily mean that we've got unlimited supplies. We can run around and do business as usual. We are very very emphatically stating to Minnesota. You must conserve. This is a finite resource that we have to in a sense start controlling our demand. We have to start thinking in terms of what we need. Not what we want. All right in a moment. We'll be taking questions from listeners. We're talking with the Minnesota Energy agency director. Al Johnson versus years, mpr's Pat Kessler. Thanks Dan L the issue that seems to be of most concern right now to John Q public Memorial Day weekend coming up is the fact that reports coming out today say that about half of Minnesota's gas stations will be closed this weekend spot checks show that gasoline. Be going for up to a dollar a gallon and there have been many conflicting reports about the possibility of gasoline rationing. I'd like you to outline for us if you can will there or will there not be some kind of mandatory rationing program in the state? Okay. If I could comment first on that on the gas station is being closed you're probably aware of the fact that we have a volunteer program going that at the present time will involve well over 400 stations throughout the state on the major arterials highways weather will be a station opened on the weekend Memorial Day weekend at least every 50 miles. The purpose of knowledge is strictly voluntary and it requires the station operators and to close during the week so they can have sufficient fuel for the weekend. They are not getting any additional fuel as a result of this. They're just reallocating on their own voluntary basis their existing Supply. The purpose of this obvious is to maintain part of our lifestyle of the states, but it does require us then to conserve to make up that difference. It doesn't mean that we can do business as usual because we do have a shortfall of Supply. Now the president has always said in his message is that he would not initiate any emergency procedures such as rationing which to this point Congress has failed to act on Until we received until we were at a 20% shortfall situation. We have not approached that yet. The estimates are between 7 and 10 percent what will happen in Congress when and if 20% is reached if that's in fact with the direction we're going I don't know but at the present time Congress is adamant and that they are not going to accept her Ashley program. They've defeated at the only part of his four part program that's gone through so far is the mandatory thermostat setting which again requires the president to declare an energy emergency for it to be effective. Well, then we've been talking about voluntary conservation that really hasn't seemed to have worked in the past. Now what are their things being talked about at the Minnesota Energy agency to compensate for this what we have we have a number of programs that were working on particularly as it affects state agencies to start with because that's quite obvious. I believe in the we cannot affect or expect the citizens of this state to Something that we don't do ourselves. And we have the governor has said we will reduce gasoline consumption by 10% on the part of all agencies. He did not say we're going to take 10% of the travel dollars away. He said we're going to reduce gasoline consumption leaving it up to the individual agency heads department heads to do affect that and we've made a bunch of suggestions that on how to do that included in that of course is a Revival of the the matching rides through the computer the state computer so that people can organize new vanpools motor pools the encouragement of mass transit the encouragement of agencies traveling together of using telecommunications instead of having to make the trip these kinds of things plus training are all of our state employees on good driving habits, which can affect the three or four percent saving in itself. Okay, I'll give you a chance right here to set the record straight then over the past couple weeks. There have been several broadcast and It reports indicating that the mea is considering such rationing plans as a $5 minimum fill at hump one day a week driving restrictions with with license plate coupons or license plate stickers white coupon rationing set cetera. What about those? Well, what what that how that came about is it as a part of the energy bill are certain changes in the emergency rules that our emergency procedures that are already in place in the state that involve rulemaking on the part of the the energy agency where we would go through the public hearing process too deep to affect rules on basis of certain. What ifs what if we reach the 20% shortfall and this has to affect obviously more than just liquid fuels gasoline and Diesel what if natural gas what if electrical generation reach certain points and that's a very pertinent question at the present time. Of course, when we consider the impact of Three Mile Island on electrical generation. So in this process it will be going on for the six next six seven eight months. The public will have a chance to respond to what they think should happen in the event of and these proposals you spoke of are some of the things that have come out of the national Governors Association for instance. And in the midwest Governor's conference as plans that might be considered by agencies or the federal government and they are in fact not anything that we have determined. This is things that we're going to be asking the public to respond to so the we get an idea of what the citizens of Minnesota think we should do in the acacias up they are in the event out. They are in other words contingency plans that are that will be put in the form of rules so that when or if an emergency does arise we have a plan in place now, we're going to give you a chance in just a moment to comment on the Public's perception of what is being called the energy shortage. But before we get to that will give out some telephone numbers because Al has agreed to take calls from listeners and he has a deadline he has to get back. To his office as early as he can before one o'clock and we want to make sure listeners have a chance to ask him questions in the Twin Cities. You can call us at 2 2 1 1 5 5 0 to ask a question of Al Johnson the director of the Minnesota Energy agency. That's two two one one five five zero the telephone number for listeners outside the Twin Cities but living with in Minnesota is one eight hundred six five two 97006529700 small brown out in st. Paul now is our panel starts lighting up with the telephone call questions for Al Johnson. And we ask you to of course keep your questions as short as you can because naturally there will be a lot of people wanting to ask questions before we take the first one L. What about the Public's perception? The media is Fond. We are found in the media of calling this an energy shortage and yet I guess I know that demand for gasoline is up from last year. And so I'm wondering whether this is so much an energy shortage as simply an increased. And for gasoline, for example, It's a combination of both. There are figures that show that we are essentially at this as far as crude oil imports essentially at the same place. We were a year ago. So where's the shortage that it has to be on the demand side? Our own figures show that we are expect Minnesota demand to be at a 2.8 percent increase for this year just on the basis of demographics that many more drivers that many more miles the cars. We still have people buying additional cars and that's where part of that demand is coming from. All right. Well, I'm sure we'll have many more questions for you on that topic as we take the first of our callers this afternoon. Good afternoon. Al Johnson of the mea is listening. (00:12:51) How do you do? How do you do? Mr. Johnson? Hi, I'd like to ask you I certainly agree with you on your observations on the need to conserve and I think we all have to be doing that but there's one thing that I'm particularly concerned about and in that is the way that energy is being wasted in there are production of electricity. Today the many of us. It seems to become an increasingly apparent that the way we produce electricity. He is probably the most wasteful way that we could generate it. And that's that's what the large centralized plant whether nuclear or coal well to begin with the 65 percent of the energy either up the Smoke Stack or into the river in the form of waste heat and I guess my question is is the energy agency continuing a policy to encourage this type of electric power generation. Probably a second question to that. I would like to ask here's the energy agency begin to look yet at the higher efficiencies that are available through generating electricity in small localized (00:13:56) facilities. Yes answer to both of your questions is as far as the energy agency, encouraging the use of any particular size. We respond to the industry itself, and of course part of our requirements in the street, In a certificate of need process is to consider alternatives. I know that the power plant citing people at State planning that ourselves and DNR PCA. All of us are looking at these Alternatives such as those advocated by people like Amory Lovins and soft technology. The problem we have is achieving some form of bridge if you will or transition from where we are today to that place in the future that we all want to be at what we have renewable energy source of some type whether it be from biomass or any of the other procedures that have been talked about solar and cetera what we have to do in the meantime is to find the most effective way. And that debate is going to continue. I can conceive that we're still going to be talking about this in the next 20 to 30 years because that's the period of time we are we're looking at for the transition. I think that Your point though about the smaller energy sources is very well taken and obviously we're concerned with using that waste heat that that even will be generated for instance from the smaller units in cogeneration or in District Heating and I think that on the part of daily in Washington, Minnesota is way ahead of everybody else in our studies in our plans for district heating. You'll see something coming forth. That's next year very positive about District Heating in Minnesota. All right, we have other callers waiting to ask questions of Al Johnson the director of the Minnesota Energy agency 22 minutes after 12 o'clock. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. We'll go to the next caller. Good afternoon, Alice (00:15:49) listening. Yes. Good afternoon. Thank you. Mr. Johnson for allowing me this forum. The last couple of years. The government has lost a lot of credibility. They claim something. We find out two or three years later that they were wrong busing has been proved to be ineffectual as far as reaching the goal that was set out to do and to stop this nonsense would give a lot more. Although I think to what the government is saying I realized that in so doing somebody's going to have to admit that. Hey we did goof and there's bureaucrats being what they are. They don't want to lose any part of their empire. But I do think that if they were to stop this busing nonsense, they can save a tremendous amount of fuel because your response on that (00:16:28) are you talking about busing to achieve racial balance? Are you talking about mass (00:16:32) transit? Nothing for racial (00:16:34) balance? I don't know if I have any statistics. I don't think I know I don't have any statistics as to how much fuels involved in that particular setup. I think that we have to consider the fact that we're going to be probably using buses in the future school buses Etc is a part of a mass transit system. I think we're going to be looking at a lot of different methods for mass transit that involved for instance school buses. And this type of thing where we will probably not have facilities exclusively designed to do what sheave a certain thing. All right other callers waiting, excuse me. L Johnson is standing by for more questions. We'll get to as many as we can in the next. Oh, I'd say 20 minutes or so. We'll take the next caller. Good afternoon. You're on the (00:17:15) air. I've never heard of (00:17:37) That's a good question. Of course coming from rice. I'm you're right in the middle of places where folks like to use their motor boats, but I think that we get into the even beyond the Aesthetics of we think in terms of what I called a previously our lifestyle. There's a certain percentage of our population that love to do this the very things you're talking about they groom their lawns and they love to go motorboating. I think that the most significant saving that all of us can have effect in terms of gasoline is in our discretionary travel in the automobile itself. The automobile has become an extension of Our Lives it is it's our office an extension of our offices of our of our bedrooms with our campers of our living rooms. We become almost. Well. I think we've become addicted if you look at what's happening in California. It's a classic withdrawal symptom of someone who's having its fix remove when Grown men use guns to maintain their place in line and beat up women that isn't withdrawal syndromes. I don't know what it is. And I think we have to recognize that we are addicted in a very true sense and if we can control our addiction or if we can get our addiction removed and start recognizing that this is something that we are it's a finite resource. We are going to have to control L. Any percentage on the amount of gasoline used by such things as the caller mentioned chain saws power more. So on and so forth. It's very small. It's a very small percentage. I we do have it in our in our database but it's a very insignificant amount compared to for instance. What would be saved by eliminating to discretionary trips a week to the grocery store for instance 20 miles a week on the part of every registered vehicle in the state of Minnesota. And that's something we can all do. All right other callers are waiting we go to the next one. Good afternoon l Johnson is listening. (00:19:31) Good afternoon, sir. I'm calling from Wayzata the first place I would. To extend my sympathies to you. You have one of the toughest jobs in the world and you're in a no-win situation. I'm sure you're aware that I'm kind of concerned about a true evaluation is so much information being bandied about that. We really don't get down to the nitty-gritty for example in the dome stadium and the people mover which are now two issues that are under consideration has your agency made any investigation of how much energy is really involved in both the building of those things the operating of them and in the case of the People Mover if there's any saving now, you know Shanks mare where people used to walk a little bit doesn't use very much energy, but if we build a people mover and have to operate that forevermore, it's going to use a lot of energy is it really good economics and has your agency Anything about investigating that from an energy point of view? (00:20:39) No, that's a good question. Both of those. We have not had we've not for one been requested by either the legislature or anybody else for that matter to do that. And I'm not sure that we would have the staff at this point to respond because we're right up to our eyeballs with trying to handle the emergency request that are coming in and also maintain the mandated functions that the legislature has given us to do. I think those kinds of questions should be a part of everything that we consider obviously in in the way we handle our this very finite resource in the future, but it's even more critical when we think in terms of the two and a half for instance to 3% of our housing we replace every year if we don't have an impact in that over the next decade we have assuming we do nothing. We have created another 25 to 30 percent of inefficient houses in this state wasting energy on a magnitude that would Comparison to those two instances that you talked about would be insignificant as to your first comment. I've adopted a Will Rogers philosophy. I think it's been attributed to him to take the job very seriously, but don't take yourself for exactly. Alright, and we'll have a follow-up question on that Al from their pattern myself in just a moment about that issue that you mentioned insulation of homes in Minnesota and the heating oil picture, but we'll take a few more questions from callers who are standing by with questions and we'll take the next one. Good afternoon. Al Johnson is listening on the air. Yes. You are. (00:22:09) I have not been listening to the radio for the last five minutes. So please stop me immediately if this questions already been asked mr. Chaps, and can you comment on the article that appeared in last night's Minneapolis Star regarding a congressional committees findings that crude oil supplies in the United States are up not down and that the FTC and the justice department are fighting between each other for who is going to take. Fiction of the investigation of this allegations. Did you see the article? (00:22:39) Yes I did and this has been alleged before one of the congressman from people was Congressman Gore presented some testimony on this and some evidence on this is regard to the around shortfall instead of the 500,000 barrels a day. He said it was something like 80,000 barrels and that was based. I believe on a CIA report. Now. This is part of the problem when you talk about credibility just who is got the facts as far as what we deal with we try to make a value judgment on all of the statistics everything from the American petroleum Institute the USGS the daily reports and our own contacts within the industry. We feel that we have a great deal of credibility with those folks we deal with that Supply or manufacture product in the state were privy to a lot of proprietary information that we that we deal with as proprietary. So that in a sense they're looking to us for the same kind of information because they don't communicate with each other. You've got every element involved in the for instance is speaking exclusively. Now, the liquid fuels you got every element from the reform cooperatives to refineries to the Branded companies to the independence. You've got jobbers you got dealers and you know, that's not one giant. They don't all sit down in a smoke-filled room. Once we can figure out what they're going to do because they don't communicate with each other. They represent different elements of it and the agency and its sense is their communication. We take all this information publish it once a week and they take a put a great deal reliability in that the news report that the caller just asked about Al indicates that there is a great amount of confusion and this Congressional study. He referred to is one that apparently will be taken up by either a house or a senate committee next month. I think and what is your personal reaction to this news item and others like it when you see them the fact that one governmental agency says One thing perhaps the department of energy. We hear almost a completely different story from some other agency. It's all by way of asking are we being served? Well by our federal agencies looking at the energy Supply situation, but what we try to do is to look on the long term and I think we have to recognize that we could debate for instance reserves of then say we've got 50 years 500 years all the rest of these numbers games, but I think we've have to start recognizing we're dealing with a very finite resource that it does have limits and the limits probably are on the production side more so than they are on the Reserve side. The demand worldwide is Excavating. We are dealing with emerging third world Nations who have never tried it. We've got China who says it's going to be in the 20th century by the 20th century. If we take a look for instance at Nigeria is an example that has in the last four years has gone from an agriculturally self-sufficient country to a country that is importing its food as a result of the energy situation. They are exporters of energy. It's created an increased living standard for them and folks are leaving these subsistence Farms to grow the city's to get in on the on the air conditioning and the four-wheeler four-barrel Carburetors in the rest of it. We I've used this example. It's a crude one, but you can't really say to these people look we've tried four-barrel carburetors and freeways and central air and they're not so great. Why don't you take the benefit of our wisdom and skipped that part of your development they're going to do it and there are they represent a part of the demand that we're competing for at the same time. You have those producers looking at what happened to her and saying hey look we don't want that to happen to us. So they are controlling the demand so that the people's expectations are not raised to the point where you have a revolution. So do you think oil companies in the United States for example are finding it much more profitable? To sell their products overseas as a result rather than in the United States. No, I think we have a pretty good profit situation in the United States. I think that the crude that when you have those same Majors trying to compete for crude on the World Market in order to satisfy the demand on this side plus their domestic supplies, when you have for instance are coops desperately competing. In fact, probably in the spot Market more far more than they like to be and when you see the spot Market peaking at 30 to 50 a barrel, you know, that that's that shaky we have other callers waiting will get to the next question right now. Good afternoon. Al Johnson is (00:27:03) listening. I'm calling from Moorhead. I have two questions relating to the cost of space heating the first being that in much of the new construction for houses or apartments. They're going to Electric because it's cheaper to install there's some question as to whether this is the most Under whether there should be some efforts to encourage space heating from other sources and electric second question relates to other classes of space heating for elderly people. It's my understanding that there's been money available for insulation for elderly. But in some counties DC deliver isn't providing enough labor to install it and so people are waiting. The second question would be are there some alternatives for those counties were there waiting long waiting list. (00:27:57) Okay. Those are both great very good questions. The first one ties in with a matter of great concern with us. We have a Statewide energy code that was approved two years ago and tacked on to the Statewide building code. Now this legislature in his wisdom has thrown out the Statewide building code. We don't really know what's happened to our energy code in the process were afraid is probably going to have to go through the courts to find out we're assuming that we will be allowed the opportunity to go back on a county-by-county basis. But this does jeopardize most of our daily funds that come into the state because of as a prerequisite for any retrofits or weatherization or a the rest of the stuff. It's tied in with the fact that you have codes at that demand or set standards for Energy Efficiency homes. And at the present time that whole question is up in the air primarily on the basis of home rule and presumably that all of these counties now we'll go out and initiate good good codes and we hope to impact on all of them. But that's another question. The second part is a weatherization and you're right in Minnesota because of are relatively low unemployment rate that we have not had sufficient see the labor as a result of this we asked for and if our Energy bill passes today, we will receive from the legislature State funds to help supplement that Sita money the the program you talking about is that weatherization program that is a to agency program Department of energy provides the materials the Department of Labor provides the funds through Sita now we feel that there are agencies that can help besides that there are the cap agencies that pretty well blanket the state but there are other social service agencies that can be used if we run into some communities that fall through the cracks. So we think that this program which by the way will impact about 14 or 15 million dollars in the state. This next biennium. Well is an excellent program. It's one that I know the Department of Economic Security in the state is extremely interested in I've had correspondence and talk to Ralph and he's interested in pursuing this as hard as he possibly can because this has a this not only is is impacts on folks who have no flexibility left on fixed incomes. So they need to be addressed. But also it is a savings every barrel of oil it saved as a result of insulation and taking up a home and improving the furnace efficiency is a barrel saved forever Ribeiro. We don't have to import along those same lines L. What are the possibilities of a heating fuel oil shortage in Minnesota next winter resulting from gasoline and Diesel shortages now. Well, it's a situation that we are watching very very close. As of course is the federal government. That's what triggered this Refinery study that I told. About it early in the program fortunately for us in Minnesota. We do have a good strong statistical Bank. We're Minnesota in its wisdom decided that it's energy policies and so on would be would be in an agency other states have them as a part of Commerce department or as an adjunct to the governor's office and they frankly don't have the statistical base that we do. So we're able in a coupled with the credibility we've had with the industry were able to match the demand in this and the supply side up pretty well and we know for instance what our demands are have been for instance in the past to tough Winters. Now the percentages of having for tough winners was since we've had three in a row, I guess our infant Isabel, but we they were infant assemble for having three. So we're watching it very very closely. The the possibility. Is there no question about it of a shortage. All right. We're going to impose on Al Johnson for a few more minutes of his time, even though he has officials waiting for him in his Officer a couple of blocks from our Studios we have callers waiting to ask questions. We'll take the next one. Good afternoon. Al Johnson is listening. (00:31:54) Good afternoon. I'm Leigh former Minnesota resident. I'm living in Claire Wisconsin. Now, my question has to do with general aviation fuel as you may be aware general aviation is that usually referred to as the small planes or light aircraft there unscheduled business type and private as a sales representative. I find that using a small aircraft is a lot more efficient sometimes and using a car. Also I have information here that says about only eight tenths of a percent that's 1/10 of 1% of all fuel that's manufactured in this country is used by general aviation. And I my question mr. Johnson he is Yes, the department going to encourage for instance business use of aircraft. Is there any are there any plans right now for for instance curtailing production of general aviation fuel whether it's Aviation gasoline or jet fuel or if there are plans to enhance for instance use of general aviation is a means of alleviating some of the problems in the fuel (00:33:03) shortages. Okay. That's good question. Maybe you should gas is not controlled. We do not have any state set aside at the present time that impacts on aviation fuel and we have a situation in the Northwestern part of the state where aviation fuel is being used in agricultural purposes. They are seeding wheat from the airplane because they can't get on the land after the floods. So right away you run into a situation where a guy supposed to get a hundred percent of use or need rather and it falls through the cracks. We know that we have a considerable amount of aviation fuel that's backed up at Lock and Dam number 26 right now in barges. That's where a lot of aviation fuel comes from that service. Is this area Lock and Dam 26 is have its Advocates on both sides. But as long as we are looking at the river as a transportation arm, which we do in the state we pick up a lot of petroleum products everything from residual oils that fire power plants and so on to as I mentioned aviation fuel comes up the river in the summer a via barge and Lock and Dam number 26 is an a is so old and there's so much badly need of repair that we have to make a decision as a nation if we are going to continue to use the river as an arterial for Among other things they are fuels as to whether or not aviation fuel will be used as an alternative to driving a car. For instance. I don't know I've seen nothing on that in terms of statistics, but it's a point well taken and we have at least one other caller waiting will get to the next one right now. Good afternoon. Al Johnson is listening. (00:34:43) Hi. I'm calling from Minneapolis in the Atlantic magazine for January 1979 on page 65 begins an article by a credited reporter named Craig carpal who writes about the ways that he knows to break OPEC and the basis of his article is actually that he is talking with a spoken with the oil geologist and OPEC and other countries around the world and the consensus from them is the that there are proven reserves of 251 years of oil in the ground at the present rate at there's really not a shortage at all, but there's an oil price dollar gouge, but the people who control Loyal about what do you have to say about (00:35:25) that? Well that's gets back to the question. I'm for the statement. I made before that we can debate how many years of oil we do have it gets back to those producing Nations and what they choose to do. Now. Let's take Saudi Arabia. They increase their production to 10 million when I ran went down their back they were at nine and a half million barrels a day prior to that and they're back at eight and a half million barrels today today at the present time and they want to go to six and a half million barrels. I think we have to recognize that for instance Iran has stated publicly over and over again that when that last barrel of oil comes out of the ground they want to be in a position where they and their people are providing some needed service or some technological benefit to the to the world so that they can exist without oil in other words. They absolutely refuse to go back to camel hell camels hair tents and goats. They're not going to become better ones as soon as the last Barrel comes out and in order for them to achieve this they have to control Their production and the amount of dollars they bring into the country and how fast they can put this whole infrastructure in place. They're trying to build highways schools hospitals the whole system and it and at the same time decide what kind of industrial base or technological base will their country evolved into to provide a service that people will pay for All right, that's Al Johnson energy agency director for Minnesota. And Al were going to allow you to exit our studio so you can get to your meeting. Thanks very much for taking time today to tell thank you. I'd like to do it again sometime good. Let's do that and a good luck on your task force meeting on the diesel fuel supply in Minnesota. Let's hope there's good news from it. Thanks to NPR's Pat Kessler for arranging with the mea to talk with Al Johnson and also for arranging some of the questions finally thanks to all of our listeners who got their questions to us. And we also appreciate the patience of those who did not have a chance to ask a question of Al Johnson is he says he'd like to do it again. So you'll perhaps have another chance.