(00:00:00) There are places in this world where one can still see the roads built by the Romans. They are truly a testament to the engineering Genius of the Roman road builders, and we could leave it at that except for a couple of points. The Roman road builders never had to cope with the combination of road salt and the freezing and thawing effects of water add to that the fact that all the Roman roads had to do was stand up under the weight of a few thousand foot soldiers every now and again and the wear and tear caused by a few chariots driven by Roman big shots from one war to another there may be no trace of Minnesota roads 2,000 years from now. Some would say great sections of our roads disappear with each passing winter and spring but the demands are indeed different from Roman times today on. Midday. We're going to discuss the wear and tear on Minnesota roads with Jerry frewen agricultural economics professor from the University of Minnesota. And st. Paul also with us is Bill Merit from the Minnesota Department of Transportation first, Jerry frewen. I was initially interested Jerry and talking to you about the problem of Road surfaces because of The Boxcar shortage and one would not think on the surface that the two topics are related, but I have the opinion that they are related and I'm wondering if you agree. (00:01:10) Well, let's see difficult to draw that immediate conclusion. There's very careful are a relationship that there is a relationship (00:01:18) between rail transport and Highway transport and the deterioration of Highways. However, I was interested in your talk about the Roman roads. (00:01:27) You got to remember that many of the branch line (00:01:30) railroad that we have in (00:01:31) Minnesota are over a hundred years old and are using the same rail. It was laid down in that period a long time (00:01:38) ago so that (00:01:39) when we look about rail service in general we have to recognize that first many of these railroads have an old physical plant why because they were laid down before we had a modern highway system. We actually are trying to (00:01:56) support to transportation systems. (00:02:00) Old system and the highway system technology has caught up with the rails highways provide a very reasonable fast type of service rails on the other hand are a very good way to move bulk Commodities like grain and what we're seeing now is the you might say the competition to see who will basically dominate The Grain transportation in Minnesota and these areas in years to come (00:02:28) is my recollection. Correct? Jerry that there has I have the recollection. I should say that there has been an unusual increase in the number of grain trucks traveling Minnesota's roads. And for that matter grain trucks probably traveling traveling Midwestern roads is that you're (00:02:40) finding well that that is true. Of course. The first reason is the amount of grain we're (00:02:44) producing today as opposed to 10 or 20 years ago. The another (00:02:48) aspect is the fact that trucks are bigger, of course bigger trucks also make it harder on (00:02:54) roads, but trucks are bigger and therefore more economical than they than they were in the past. We have had a (00:03:02) shift to (00:03:03) truck transportation in many parts of Minnesota part of it is due to the situation of such rail cars. Another (00:03:11) thing is due (00:03:11) to the idea of a (00:03:14) truck barge mode of (00:03:16) exporting corn and beans into International markets. It is like 35 cents a bushel (00:03:22) cheaper to (00:03:25) to send grain to New Orleans by barge and is by rail so that the (00:03:30) incentive to put the grain into a hopper car is not there. The incentive is to get to the best Market as you can so therefore one of the ways to do it is by truck to the River ports and Minneapolis st. (00:03:43) Paul Winona and go down down by barge and saves 35 40 cents a (00:03:49) bushel. And of course it is no accident that Minnesota is blessed with a an excellent Road Network system and Bill Murray from the Minnesota Department of Transportation. I'm just wondering build a few have Cheering nightmares of those big grain trucks bumping over your Minnesota roads. Well, there's no question. What do I did it has an impact on the road system, but I'm certainly going to be first to say that I don't think it's the sole cause of the damage that we have on our on our roadways system, but would you say it has been a factor in increasing the where it certainly has been an impact but it's only a contributor along with quite a few other things. I think that the spell out that deterioration what have been those other things we always cite the weather but is that always Fair? Well, I think it's fair. I think that the weather and in the issue potholes right now are the freeze-thaw cycles that create the salt brine or just plain water on the roadway surface and it's constantly seeking out some way to get into the ground and so it finds every crack along the road and as the temperature vacillates between the the warm weather and the cold weather. I think that just is what we really call. The deterioration now Bill you're not a member of the state patrol. So, of course, you are not in the enforcement division of this issue. But what is your opinion as to the overloading of large vehicles in the state? And the effect that that has on Minnesota's roads. Is it your impression that there are many overloaded vehicles on the roads that seriously contribute to Road deterioration. Well, I think we have to be realistic about it and I would have to say yes, that's true. The very difficult job is the enforcement that is the responsibility of the state patrol and our roads were originally designed to carry 9-ton axle loads. The legislature has increased that axial load carrying capacity up to ten ton. And it seems as though I read in the paper recently that some truck drivers liked to play games with Patrol officers and see what load they can carry without getting caught. I'm not a part of that game. I can't speak with any great knowledge about that. But I'm sure it occurs. Well, Jerry mentioned a few minutes ago the economic incentive that is it is simply cheaper to carry things over Minnesota's roads often times and it is to put them in a box car. What does the other side of the Ledger show Bill does what are the costs? If you have them available of maintaining Minnesota's roads due to all of the deteriorating factors. Well, I think this figure would it's down a lot of people but it does cost us about 70 million dollars just to maintain a roadway system which of course is a rather a large system, but we have twelve thousand two hundred miles mandated as part of our is our responsibility on the trunk highway system. We had some hundred and twenty eight thousand miles of other roads that also had to be maintained. However, the twelve thousand two hundred miles really is the 70 million dollar figure and that does not include County Roads is that right does not include County or Township or see Strict and I presume there's a big price tag associated with that. Yes, sir. And I don't have that that figure. Well, what do you think is the solution here? I was I was prepared to guess for a moment. There bill that you were going to suggest that building bigger and better roads is the answer that all we have to do is lay a thicker slab of concrete or pour a little more asphalt to prevent this road deterioration problem. Well, we have a figure of speech that we use are on to Department that's called a band aid. We give a band aid treatment which is an overlay on top of a already in place roadway. However, the band aid treatments really are something that may last from three to five years and really don't do the job that that we need to have to carry the kind of traffic we have I think one of our biggest problems here in Minnesota is that we really have an incomplete transportation system. And I can speak mainly of the highways. We have not been able to complete the interstate system and we have not really got a complete system of the regular trunk highway system. And I kind of look at it as being a part of the vascular system you have within your own body. If you haven't got a complete system something else is carrying the load and Jerry. I presume that you would argue that unless we get to work upgrading the railroad system that the system will continue to be in complete the transportation (00:08:19) system. Well, I guess I want one say yeah, I guess I would have to say that we need a complete transportation system and that (00:08:26) includes railroads margin water transportation and highways I think that one of the immediate problems I see gets back to this idea of (00:08:36) weight limitation enforcement on the highway because when we (00:08:40) went to the 10-ton standard for the 9-ton standard basically we're talking about (00:08:44) increasing the stress on a loaded on a legally loaded truck from 25 to 50 percent. It so that when we talk about the (00:08:53) question you asked about (00:08:55) thicker cement the cost is not just the idea of putting in (00:09:00) 10% more. I don't know what it would be but I suppose you're talking about something like like 50% more for Miles. (00:09:05) So any time we go to a heavier load be it highway or be it rail or be it even airplanes. We are talking about increasing something like to the fact of (00:09:17) the fourth power as far as the construction requirement. (00:09:20) So that in many respects we have to look at how do we get the best system for our dollar? We got two things. How do we protect what we have and how do we tie together what we have to have the best system. (00:09:34) So so it looks to me like we've got things like first enforcing the weight (00:09:39) limits and second getting a viable railroad Network and figuring out how we can get Hopper cars and moves the grain at way things. (00:09:49) That (00:09:49) that railroad Network and re-establishing it or improving. It is something that I understand. The university is working on Jerry because we saw a few weeks ago a news item over the Associated Press that the issue of boxcar shortage in Rural America was going to be studied by two universities in the United States including the University of Minnesota. And what is the nature of that study? (00:10:10) Actually the thrust our (00:10:11) participation at study (00:10:13) is more online of the rail line abandonment problem. (00:10:17) And basically what we are proposing to do is to look and say okay, let's take an area typical Corn Belt area with several Branch lines going through it and look at several Alternatives one is to abandon. All the railroads one is to upgrade all the railroads one is to look at a very reasonable (00:10:41) intermediate step and then say okay if we abandon everything how much more will that cost and Highway Maintenance? (00:10:49) Construction (00:10:51) who will pay that. Will it be the shippers passed through user charges? Will it be some way we get that back from the federal to state government and work through this idea of additional cost or additional savings to the different (00:11:04) scenarios and (00:11:05) also looking at who is (00:11:06) going to be the beneficiary of the people live in (00:11:09) the area the shippers (00:11:11) or isn't fact when a cost much more to the to the people in the local area because of a lack of roads and and no way to get the grain (00:11:18) out little Merit. What does the department have to say about that the Department of Transportation? I imagine that you a few of you were able to look a few years ahead at the Department of Transportation and predict the increase truck traffic on the roads as you look ahead. Now. What do you see for the next few years? Well, I think it's going to be very difficult to make the same kind of projection. I think that's one of our problems is that as we designed our present highway system. We found it very difficult to keep up to the The increase of the trucks on the roadways and consequently the design factors. Perhaps are inadequate. Although I would even say today out of fairness to the design people that I don't think we have a better handle on the way the trucking industry May expand over time. So more money does not seem to be a clear answer to either making a better railroad system or a better highway system better enforcement more money would certainly be part. I presume better enforcement of overweight vehicles on Minnesota roads is part of it Bill. What are some legislative remedies? Are there any legislative remedies? Well, I think the legislature right now is being faced with a request for some additional revenues and there are several different approaches to getting those things from the dod. You mean from the d-o-t and and what I think we're going to have to do if we do get some kind of Revenue increases we have to really work our priorities over to make a determination how we on to spend the dollar. I certainly feel in in Minnesota. We should work in two ways. We very definitely have to maintain a system that's currently on the ground and I feel I look at that as being my own number one priority. The other thing is to complete the system if we complete the system, we can take some of this traffic and redistribute it and make it a more functional system and the system I really speak of is the interstate system at this time. What about administrative legislative or regulatory Solutions jury frewen for the railroad industry in this country. Are there any such as deregulation of Frank rate that you think would significantly improve the situation for railroad so that they could re-establish and strengthen their (00:13:39) service. Well the idea of deregulation of freight rate (00:13:44) over the long pole might (00:13:47) strengthen the railroads. System generally as would the abandonment of the branch lines. They don't need the railroads have financial difficulties in no question about it on the other hand. When we looked at Minnesota situation where the truck rates are already cheaper than the rail rates throughout the state of Minnesota allowing. The railroads more rate. Freedom will not help them very much unless they lower their rates and I have (00:14:16) not seen anyone at anticipates that under rate Freedom. We would see a lowering of (00:14:21) rates on claws like rain. (00:14:24) Hmm Bill do you think the state would charge truckers higher taxes for the right to drive over roads with heavy vehicles? I think the trucker's are pairing paying their fair share right now. I think that's one of the benefits of the the highway trust fund that we know. Have you paid it going charge and I guess we've always heard that the truckers aren't paying their Fair rates. On the other hand, I think the trucker's have responded by putting information in the back of their trucks kind of give an indication a what is the fair rate and and they are responding that way. Jerry you don't think that there are any short-term solutions to this. We have heard many of the problems that the railroad industry Executives have raised the fact that it is simply not profitable to fill up a boxcar and ship it in One Direction and return empty. This problem apparently has existed since the 1880s or at least that's what I've been told and is there nothing that is going to change it for the near future. (00:15:22) Well, we have to remember one thing the in many respects a boxcar shortage or I should say a transportation shortage in the (00:15:32) grain industry means that we're that in general the grain industry as well off last year. We had a continuous (00:15:39) rail car shortage and out the entire year and I (00:15:42) think we move something (00:15:44) like 50% more grain by rail in the previous year and all-time record on exports. So in one respect when we when we have a railcar shortage, we also are probably having our cultural Prosperity. Now, of course people are going to be All upset because it's (00:16:02) their grain. It can't move its their Grain on the ground, but the fact remains that the agricultural Community is probably better off (00:16:13) when we have a railcar shortage because they got we've got (00:16:17) grain and to sell and Market to sell it in then in the years (00:16:20) when when you get all the rail cars you (00:16:23) want is it your impression Jerry that the railroad industry is simply unwilling to give up the old ways and that perhaps the only possible solution is some form of nationalization of the railroad. (00:16:34) Well, that's there's two questions there (00:16:37) but we've had difficulty making the transition because we at one time railroads were very dominant matter of fact in 1900 in the Corn Belt every font the average final six miles from the (00:16:53) railroad station not from a railroad buff actually was placed the market grain (00:16:58) and we've had that we had no motor transport now we had a period when we went through this whole idea of the development of the of the highway system development of motor truck now we're facing Entirely different situation railroad management has responded with things like the unit train what's coal and grain from areas multiple car rates many of these things were put in over the objection of the ICC (00:17:24) so that you know, it's a big industry a lot of fixed Capital. It is difficult to make rapid adjustments. (00:17:33) So that's that's one problem far as the idea of nationalization of the rail industry. That would not be an immediate solution. There are (00:17:45) affected when salt we just move from one set of problems under Private Industry to a similar set of problems that the government has (00:17:54) I think the idea long-term possibly of more as we get into more Federal money go in state money going into roadbeds. We might see more things develop like the highway system where we have these met (00:18:10) In order he's of Commerce (00:18:13) railroads that basically are looked after and protected by the gods make sure that they are and in good shape, but not the idea just nationalizing the railroads just go from one. (00:18:27) To twice some short-term fix (00:18:28) know I think I've heard a number of Highway proponents say that as long as the nation's interstate system is not complete there will continue to be problems some bottleneck somewhere Jerry is that your position that the part of The Boxcar shortage could be alleviated by completing the various Highway links that have been uncompleted in this country. (00:18:49) I don't think so. I think as long as we have transportation even with the interstate system completed will have bottlenecks that that's one of the things as we continue to expand our transportation system. We are going to have bottlenecks here and there we got to keep working on so I don't think that something like fix the interstate system would really have much effect at all upon the rail capacity (00:19:12) the few minutes we have left. I want to talk to Bill Merit about some issues not exactly related to the link of Railcar shortage in the deterioration of Minnesota's roads, but more specifically on the deterioration problem caused by salt and weather. The sort of Bill not long ago the Department of Transportation announced that they were conducting some studies to find out whether or not the use of salt could be reduced on Minnesota's roads and what has been the status of that studies or anything to report on that. Yes. We had four experimental areas set up throughout the state we have now completed that study of these four areas one was located over and Robbinsdale another one on trunk Highway 61 one on Highway 14 down around casts. And then another one up by Detroit Lakes on Highway 10. I'm not certain at this point in time that it would just what the evaluation of that experiment would be. However prior to that experiment. We had reduced our salt usage some $0.47 and we are what we're really trying to find through this experimental effort is what level of salting can we get by with and so our experiment was set up with the with that in mind I might point out. That we did have to abort one of the experiments because of the slippery conditions that prevailed on Highway a hundred in Golden n Robbinsdale. And I think that's kind of an indication that we're just about at the point of a proper application until we are able to come up with some alternative method. The only alternative to that has been an approach using urea which is really has an expenditure about seven times that of salt so be until we can really say and feel Justified and we can go into the application of urea and preference to Salt we're going to have to stay with the salt but we are going to have to continue trying to minimize its application has this year been an especially bad year for the formation of potholes and Road surfaces as far as you can tell well, it's a never ending thing. Yes. I think this year has our winter started early in October and it's not over yet as you can see by looking outside. However, we're having we're having problems with things kind of catching up with us over the past few years because of the restraints put on our on our budgets and on our compliments of people and the additional Snows of this year. I don't think that we've been able to get out and take care of the potholes as fast as they seem to materialize but as long as you've got a lot of snow and you have the Friesen thaws that take place in the Northern Tier States in particular and the application of salt potholes are going to be with us forever. I would like to point out that Minnesota is not listed among the top 20 and having potholes that even outside of the Northern Tier of states such as Texas and even out in California. They have a tremendous problem with potholes this year. What could possibly be the problem in a Southern state with potholes? What are the There well, I think it has to do with traffic. You know, you have to have the constant pounding to break up the roadway. Otherwise, the roadway could could dry out and would probably remain in place a cracks it always be there. But the pounding has to be there to really pound the material out. Do I understand correctly build it pothole repair can only be successful when the temperature warms up a bit primarily it a proper patch has to be placed under dry conditions. And so we try and take care of the surface conditions as best we can and hope that by the 1st of May or certainly by the 15th will be able to get on do good job potholes in the boxcar shortage to Perennial Topics in Minnesota. And I have a feeling that we'll be talking about them more in the future and I want to thank both of you for joining us today as part of midday to talk about them Jerry crew and talked with us about the boxcar issue. He's an agricultural Economist from the University of Minnesota. And st. Paul Bill Merit is with the Minnesota Department of Transportation also. St. Paul thanks to both of you.