(00:00:08) I know like a sheep in storms was tossed yet afraid to put into love for seasoning more Port of the Souls Lost whose treasure is contraband or join. The say for sure is in my possession possession. My only possession Joan Morris, mezzo-soprano accompanied by pianist William balcombe. They are performing one of Polly peachum songs from the beggar's Opera bochum. And Morris are probably best known for their concerts and recordings of American music at the turn of the century, but during the past month. They've been Focusing their interest on John gaze 18th century musical comedy bochum and Maurice were persuaded to come to Minneapolis after the Guthrie staff found a rarely performed score of beggar's Opera written by the late French composer Darius me. Oh the music needed some revision and some additional songs to fit the Guthrie production when the theater began searching for a music director Balkans name came quickly to mind The Pianist composer studied with me. Oh in the 1960s and has recorded some of mios piano and orchestral music bochum agreed to participate and so did Morris who singing partner and his wife who found the aunjanue role of Polly peachum and acting and singing Plum just prior to a rehearsal a couple weeks ago Boca Morris and I sat in a small basement Studio at the Guthrie with a mosaic Lee painted slightly Out Of Tune Piano what better place quipped bochum to talk about their current project. So we began by discussing how Mio came to write the beggar's Opera (00:01:56) score Mio went to a production at least say Marseille around my say something friends. And the I think the local guy their teacher their had made a translation and had used Little Tunes and had done it with a group of his high school kids there and they had done a one thing which I rather liked was that there were there were two sets and they had them on two ends of this gymnasium and people they didn't have enough money to have a stage. So people sat on these folding chairs. They turn them around to the second act. Turn it back to the third which I think is terrific and meal was so taken by the whole thing that he wrote a score for the songs that were used in that production which about 32 Songs. Of the whole 69 that are in the original John gay people should know that. What John gay did was he stuck a bunch of well-known Tunes to new words that he himself had written and the tunes were from collections of the day or by handle or by personal are people like that. And so there were 69 Tunes originally used some of them for measures long some longer Zone. And so there were I'm sure this is what happened is that the production only used 32 of those songs and those were probably very likely the ones that the meal decided to pick to turn around and the next year. He probably using the same people decided to do a radio production of the same thing in Marseille with his orchestration (00:03:23) the score just kind of languished for a number of years (00:03:25) right very likely. I don't know it may have been used but there's no way for me knowing it could have been used. I know that when we got the the rental material it obviously had been used but not for a while the parts were old and the score was crumbling and so and so forth, but that was at French paper which falls apart anyway, and I don't know when it was engraved or exactly I think about 1945 well, which would of course meant that they had to do it on the cheap, so Anyway, they the thing Maya but might have been used in that translation with a kind of thing a few times ever since and there's really no way of telling it was obviously done about three or four times. I'm just guessing by the marks on the you know, just the marks on the parts and the conductor's notes which was about two or three different hands so far, which was (00:04:11) mios so far as you know, it hasn't been done in America (00:04:15) it probably if it has been done. There was one person who looked like he could have been American these were these came out of the rental agency of salad bar in New York, which is you know, there is a company that is both in Paris in New York. So it may have been done and most likely it was done as a sweet. You see what happens is so often happens is that you write Stage Music and you extract a sweet from it, which is what me. Oh did he extracted or Suite of might be about 25 26 numbers out of the 32 34. He had not using a few of them and there were orchestrations extent of those. And they were not in his hand. They would have copyist end and they had never had the vocal line put it on them. But I mean there have been pointing little arrow saying we're me. Oh, I mean we're whoever it was was supposed. This is a doubling line for Polly your Mackey for whoever, you (00:05:03) know, when you were studying with me. Oh, did he ever mention that he had written the (00:05:06) score? No, I mean he wrote so much stuff. He wrote about 440 works, you know and to constantly working in what I knew him. It was in the late 50s and early 60s and like that and all the way up till about 1971 when he died the next year and he was more obviously interested always in his newer work. He wasn't interested in anything that bat far back as 1937-38. That was that was actually you know, what I was before I was born for heaven sakes and he wouldn't be particularly interested know that he probably fell it was a nice thing to do was a minor work was at stage music kind of thing and I don't suspect it. He considered it one of his most epic making things. It certainly is it's very good music. It's excellent. It's not what you would say. He probably would consider as historically important to his own career, but Was a nice piece and it's certainly very much (00:05:50) Mio. Did you do much rewriting of the 32 (00:05:53) already did no. No, I didn't touch them there were places where they were two in which they had not been designed for any vocal use that he just taken the tunes and use them as instrumental interlude. So I had to do a little bit of cut and paste into fix up the tune. Maybe add a few measures here and there but in the style straight that well for example is very simple. I mean here is one that's by me. Oh and I had to add to it but it's very simple little thing. It's just ridiculous. Here's the part. That's me. Oh all the first couple measure here's and then a third and fourth are mine and the rest of it from fired on to the end it goes like so but I mean, it's all I did really is just a little bit of, you know Carpenter. Really that's always necessary in a couple of cases like that. Otherwise, everything is me. It was all meal. And I mean whatever I had to do was just too so there was this one had to be transformed from an instrumental interlude into a song. That's all it had to be done and it was a very minor kind of operation. But the rest of it is all meal. (00:07:18) What is it that attracts you about to the score? What is it? That's essentially we ought to do (00:07:23) it. I was asked to do it and I like me. Oh and I was didn't affect I've gotten to appreciate his work a great deal more recently than I even did when he was alive when Mio was alive he was always respected and people always played his work and so on and All of that, but but the point was that at the time he was little bit out of style and it was one of those things that as a student. It was a little hard to square my feelings about me. Oh and the general consensus among the other students that he was, you know, a relative another time and place but now when I'm older, I don't care about that so much and I've suddenly, you know become aware of the freedom and the expansiveness and General Health of the Man's music and I'm very thankful for that. And I really also I feel so close to the family that you know, it's hard for me to say anything but good things about his work. So I really know I loved him dearly is it was like a father to me many ways. (00:08:25) Are there unique things about this score compared to other things that Mio (00:08:29) did well in the thirties particularly meal why think could be said to have got into a very popular kind of vain. His music is more say accessible than perhaps of later years when he got little bit more crusty and Not difficult, but go into into things where he got more involved with this pollen tonality my that there's a very little Paula tonality in this particular score. This is where you have one thing comes into one key and another one comes. Oh, so, you know my right hand is in E Major in my left engine in G major and that sort of became the famous trademark of of Mio, although everybody else sort of used it to Stravinsky and hindemith and whoever else that particular time, but me also was known as a sort of Crown Prince of politan healthy with us. There's relatively little of that in this what is interesting in this particular one is that he uses Rumba rhythms and Samba rhythms and Jazz rhythms and things like that, which of course people also identifying with because of works like the creation of the world. And of course that was the fun part was to suddenly find instead of you know other arrangements, I'd seen or heard of the beggar's opportunity to be a little bit on the what I call a smarmy Victorian side particularly. The one that was used for for the Laurence Olivier movie which was a fine movie otherwise in that but there was this great big sloppy strings, you know, every time you turned around at sound like Pete, you know, very very lovely English heavily varnished, you know, very nice. But but he uses maybe one of the tunes that would have been otherwise very sentimental eyes and he puts it into becomes a Rumba, you know, which is terrific and to put that in there is a wonderfully kind of fresh idea. So what I would say, is that all right, even though I actually did physically more of the tunes, I don't think I wrote any more music because many of the tunes I did were very short and also the basic Style We're his I mean having taken that whole point of view. It was like sort of a posthumous collaboration and that point of view. It was lots of fun for me. I enjoy doing it was it was like my memories of the man of the house. So I mean it was more of a kind of a it was one of the most fun things I've ever done for the stage. Certainly. I've had more fun doing this than most of the Stage Music I've ever done because it was a more creative thing. It was going to be handled more as music rather than something that you cut and paste and play with as you do often with Stage Music so that the point is that is that they just become say is as important as lighting which is important of course, but this is more substantive and more involved with itself (00:11:12) is the music difficult to perform from a singer standpoint. (00:11:16) Well, you'd have to ask Joan about that. She's a (00:11:18) singer. None of the Toons. I really difficult. Some of the ranges are a bit hard. I mean the folk tunes they oh, I don't know what the widest one would be maybe an octave and a fourth or something like that if that but in that way, they're difficult because you have to have both a good high in a good low, but acting wise they're they're really very satisfying with the words that you know, and as character pieces there, you know, we work out the vocal things because it's worth it to get the you know, the character understanding clear but vocally know that they're not really they're all tonal, you know, there's nothing super difficult. There's a few that are you know minor that a little bit (00:12:01) tricky just the range is that the mean that you got to be able for example in the same song of the Keith has got to go down another just G sharp, which is a long range for the average Theater singer. And now if you get an average singer singer type person then they're going to make it all sound. Like these you know that big sort of soundness of as Luciano berio puts it so wonderfully British Italian and kind of diction that doesn't really understandable on stage. So the problem and finding a mckeith of course, and that's really why they also decided for Polly to do, you know to ask Joan to do it was to find somebody who was really an actor or an actress who had that kind of vocal range in was that that ability and they were very lucky to find David Canary who can do this, but that kind of person is not all that easy to find (00:12:46) you mentioned the words did me? Oh right for the words. I mean, how did he put that together? Is there a (00:12:54) separate well now here's what happens. There were two moons. The tunes were pre-existent. John gay took those tunes and set them to new words. And those were his own words they had to do right to do with the text. They were fell right into whatever the scene was about. They grow right out of one of the scene is about so the directly involved with whatever is going on. Now those same words were translated by whoever translated those things into French when Mio set them. They were set to the French which meant there were a few little tiny changes here and there for notes but there was nothing really musically different. It's just that sometimes maybe there would have to be two syllables for the French word. And so you'd use two quarter notes instead of a half note, which the English word would have called for and that's basically all it had to be done when I was restoring this to an English production type of score. I just took out a lot of the extra little notes here and there the meal at added simply to make the new translation fit. So basically he had said it to the French. The other thing of course is that the French temples are faster French goes bike much more quickly than English does on stage particularly American English. We tend to talk slower and French is really a faster language. It simply is I mean having lived that many years in France as I did, it's true. They do speak quicker. And so naturally the temples that were marked in. Bye Miyo are quicker tempos than the temple is that we're going to be able to use in this production because of the addiction problems (00:14:15) Joe. Would you be able to do one of poly songs sure understands of rain for his life think of poor polish Tears like a sailor. He holds up his hands distressed on The Dashing way to die a dry death. It's Polly a pristine character in this production. Well, she's that's very strong in her character. She still her parents have kept her fairly innocent. I mean, she's not like like Lucy who's been, you know whose father runs the jail and she's been around all the prisoners in this and Polly's parents are really there the aspiring middle class. They want her to marry someone of property. That's why they're just bitterly disappointed when she says mckeith because he's a Highwayman he has no hopes for climbing the social ladder. Whereas they want to be, you know, their Merchants they want to be respectable people and you know, she's an asset in the business a pretty pretty face and they're going to in effect. They would probably sell her to some, you know, maybe minor Lord or someone like this and then she disappoints them by wearing a piece but there's Applications to her she's very capable in the business. She runs it when her parents aren't there. So it's not just you know, sweet little little Polly. It's this but she can also connive to to help me Keith escape from them. I asked that question partly because in Threepenny Opera, which is violin Breck's version of this in the original brecht vile version Polly is not a pristine sort and and is indeed given control of the business. Yeah, when he goes off and sing some of the most interesting songs. It's interesting that that pirate Jenny was originally Polly song which is seems kind of strange, you know on their on their wedding night, you know, he asked her to do something it's you know, it's is a dull day nothing's ever going to happen. And so she says well if nobody else will sing I Will and then in the original the first version she did the, you know the ship that black freighter, which is really, you know doesn't seem in accordance with all the other character things for her violent. Ted written Threepenny Opera went Mio redid the so yes, is there any parallel any kind of connection to be made? Well, (00:17:16) not particularly accepted. The only thing that is common to all of those three versions is this tuna stew and of course when when the setting in Threepenny Opera is pretty straightforward very simple. And of course, this was a tune also in the original Beggars operas, the only tune from Beggar's Opera that is also to be found in the Threepenny Opera. All the other ones are new tunes by violent and actually a few tunes of game from Rex ideas. This is the more it time and (00:17:52) Any ideas as to why that has carried through? Why what why that particular tune has (00:17:58) probably just like a little bow to their production, you (00:18:01) know, maybe so it's very Sly it's a perfect character thing for peacham through all the Employments of Life. Each neighbor abuses his brother whore and Rogue they call husband and wife all professions be (00:18:12) Rogue one another (00:18:14) the print the priest calls the lawyer cheek to the lawyer the names the Divine while the Statesman because he still great things his trade as honest as mine. You know, it's very bitter very very sneaky. (00:18:27) It's in fact, it's already sounds like brecht. It does. Yeah about two hundred and some years before the fact. It's also curious. The beggar's Opera had had a very Lively Revival in England and in the 20s, which breakfast secretary happened to hear about and they began immediately to work on translations and then brickton vile as a little kind of vacation from their Opera. Mahogany, which had been working on. So the right three Penny Opera about 200 years after the event. This is a Revival of the production about 250 years after the event. In fact about 21 years and two days or something like that from the original opening. All we've done is to is to restore meals version to the English a little bit which took only a little tiny bit of finagling and add in the rest of the songs. And as far as what I've done stylistically is is there's no question about it. I have tried to kind of have a little conversation with meal mostly in the OES but also in some of my own because I was influenced by the guy but I'm different from him and that of course is by two friends can get along. (00:19:54) Dear father come home with me know the clock in the steeple strikes one. You said you were coming right on from the shop as soon as your day's work was done. I'll fire has gone out houses all dark and has been watching since T is with poor brother Benny. So sick in her arms and no one to help. That's Bilbo command Joan Morris getting along on a record of civil war songs a collection by Henry Clay work. They've also done a variety of vocal music from Gay 90's to Gershwin. They met in New York while bochum was working with Joshua Rifkin on Scott Joplin. Material Morris. Meanwhile had dropped out of Gonzaga University to try Broadway and found herself singing in Central Park accompanied by a harpist the two got together and for the past five years have been winning critical Acclaim for their concerts and recordings. We invoke them and Joan Morris are known have been called curators and custodians of the popular American song. Do you do you like that that description (00:21:31) better than a poke in the eye with a short (00:21:33) stick, but (00:21:36) I don't know. I mean, (00:21:37) you know that they always have to label you something. I mean that has I don't know. It's we do that too. But but that's not that's not all we do. I mean, we you know performing is is a you know different part of that but that's just as important as bringing them to the notice of people as songs, you know, and trying to remember the style while re finding them for your own how difficult is it to take a song that was written 50 or 60 years ago and fit it to your own musical style. Well, it's not difficult when you think of it as a piece of music as a you know piece of music on its own the same way. If I put a bronze song up there, I'll look at it is you know, okay. Okay. This is the composer had one intention The Lyricist had another and you know, if I try to elicit that rather than well. How does how did how did Lotte Lehmann do this song or how did You know, how does Renata Scotto do it? How does oh, I don't know Barbra Streisand do it instead of looking at that which is what deadens of thing. I think if you if you copy a style but if you go to the music itself and find that for yourself, then I think you can you know, Revitalize (00:22:59) it find your own style and then a piece that was written last week or one that is 250 years old as is really no problem because it's you (00:23:07) finding it. In fact something that was written last week and be a lot harder because it's so much in your ear like what the Bee Gees do or what Linda Ronstadt does, you know, I admire that so much I want to just copy it instead of that's always hard. Although I've listened to a lot of recordings from the 20s and 30s and even there's a few from just after the turn of the century Blanche ring and Lillian Russell and it stays in my ear, but I still try to if I just copy that the song won't come alive for me. I have to have my own reason for doing it and some songs. I've had to just Give up on because they wouldn't you know, they wouldn't work for me that that happens to. The Henry Clay work collection could have lapsed into Camp could have lapsed into melodrama that almost more than what what how do you prevent that from happening? (00:23:58) I mean what's really in there? That's all people. I think really one of the problems we had the very first thing again, you have to remember that Joanie's training was not toward doing Gay 90's particularly or 20s and 30s particularly. She was trained as an actress, but an actress who sang she was very lucky and having excellent lesson so that she sounds like herself and not like an imitation of someone else a lot of this business of style has been a problem was when the teachers have been trying to train people to sound like some vocal ideal where there really a good teacher will try to find out what you sound like and try to make the best best possible version of that which should which should Joanie was very lucky in finding a teacher who did that. I found a way to develop her own voice to sound like her and is that we think the same kind of way and she would take her teacher mrs. Schmidt. Would take Joanie's material no matter what it would be good be a song by Blood Sweat and Tears or an aria from La clemenza Di Tito and take it would equal seriousness and equal application. And that was the tradition that Joy comes from and out of that you can you can handle anything. Well we were asked to do after the ball by Tracy Stern it done such because she wanted to look at these songs rather. Seriously. Well your trouble at that time was that you had certain associations from (00:25:16) it. I done a show called The drunkard Off-Broadway that this particular version Barry Manilow had put together the songs that we used in it the fountain in the park won't you come home Bill Bailey and we were encouraged to Camp it up as much as we wanted the more the better so I had that idea and I thought oh dear we had we had been doing only 20s and 30s saws when Bill and I first did our first chose together and those I just love but the earlier stuff. I just thought it was hopeless. I got all there's so much of an overlay of you know, Shakey's Pizza Parlor stuff on Top of it and I had to I had to you know, take myself in hand and say okay, let's let's be respectful to these two and once I did that I saw how much more difficult they were and you know that but it's much more reward rewarding to so but we didn't start out to do that kind of material never (00:26:08) would necessarily Camp up anything. It's you you have to find the truth in it. And that's really why you also have to be very selective. There are people who look for certain kinds of material that they can have their own fun cocky a wink at it and showing how much smarter they are. Well that's easy and that's also pretty dumb. It also shows that you don't have any generosity. I (00:26:29) mean campus campus lacking (00:26:31) in love when you have to love what you're doing and that love is what respect to someone else to show you that there that know the to get you in the audience feeling superior to the material is is in the end very very ungenerous and very unkind and Factory in the rather on unhuman And I think it's much better to find what is wonderful (00:26:49) in there. When you finish this project what new things will you be doing? Oh gosh. We well we have two new records coming out one is all Irving Berlin songs. And the other one is all Gershwin George group George and Ira Gershwin songs. And those are two we did last year and we kind of decided last year. We were going to hold off on making records for what we've made eight records in the last four years, which is a lot (00:27:15) and a lot of writing to do and my sabbatical is coming up and I have a lot of music Goods ahead of (00:27:19) me. I'll be doing another musical here next season also in the same position as this is it'll be Captain Jenks and would it be an imposition to ask you to do a Gershwin tune? 10:30 in the morning. What would be a good? (00:27:37) I don't know early in the morning is hard to think of (00:27:39) anything. Well, well, let me think (00:27:41) something that's up so we can keep awake. (00:27:43) Well, he's are fascinated with the more (00:27:46) about the they all laughter you ready for that (00:27:48) dear if I can remember all the words. I think I can that's right. The odds were a hundred to one against me the world for the heights were too high to climb but people from misery never incensed me. Oh, I wasn't a bit concerned for from history. I had learned how many many times the worm had to they all laughed at Christopher Columbus when he said the world was wrong they all laughed when every Sunday Hold it son. They all laughed at Wilbur and his brother when they said that man could fly they told Marconi Wireless was a for me. It's the same old cry, they'll have to be wanting you said I was reaching for the moon but now the have to change that to they all said we never could be happy. They laughed at us and how they all laughed at Rockefeller Center now, they're fighting to get it. They all laughed at Whitney and his cottage (00:29:14) cheese. (00:29:17) They all laughed at Hershey and his chocolate bar. You came through very deep Humble Pie. They all said we'd never get together darling Let's Take a Bow. Oh, ho ho ho who's got the last laugh. We embarked. Mmm. Joan Morris technical director was Paul Kelly. I'm Nancy Fusion.