Other press accounts of the situation in southern Africa don't always give us a clear impression of what's happening. There. Most of us are aware that the conflicts in Rhodesia and the union of South Africa a rise out of the apartheid policies of the minority white governments there that is their official discrimination against blacks and other people of color those policies have resulted in increased friction and violence in recent years and in recent weeks the situation to become even more critical in South Africa, the government has recently reneged on a plan to have free United Nations supervisors elections in Namibia. Olivia is a territory that's been under the control of South Africa since World War one, but it which is now attempting to attain Independence and black majority rule as recent news reports indicate the situation in Rhodesia is closer to Civil War. The white government of Ian Smith is fighting the Nationalist Guerrilla forces of the patriotic front under Joshua. Nkomo, and Robert Mugabe. We've been hated it.Struggle by the Russians and internal settlement between Smith and moderate black leaders including Bishop Abel muzorewa does not work to this point are usually because it doesn't include the Guerrilla leaders reducing conflict was escalated about 2 weeks ago when during Ian smitts visit to the United States is Rhodesian Army attack camps in neighbouring Zambia run by Joshua and comb Zimbabwe Africa people's Union since then the fighting has increased Smith claims that the camps attack will gorilla military strongholds and Como claims. They were refugee camps late reports from the area. Confirm that indeed both types of camps were hit resulting in at least 300 dead and hundreds more injured.Dr. Paul, we is the General Secretary of Lutheran World Ministries, which is giving humanitarian Aid to both sides and their religion Conflict. At least one of the camps hit in the recent Rhodesian. Army attack was the recipient of Lutheran World Ministries Aid. We was in attendance at the American Lutheran Church National Convention held recently in Moorhead in an interview the day after the bombing took place. He told me about the church's role in that conflict and gave his reaction to the bombings of the camps. I was Disturbed to read in the paper this morning if we talked about Rhodesia first, that's a Ian Smith in some audacity. This is his last day in this country sends his Air Force against the camps in Zambia and Mozambique, of course, it's so couldn't concern to our Lutheran Church is because we in fact supports humanitarian needs in those camps. We Supply medicine irrespective of Ray.A screed color political conviction across the board that is always been our policy to supply all people who are suffering especially those in Refugee situations with medicine care blankets and so forth. I was very upset this morning because the camps that were attacked in Zambia. Arcam said that house Lutheran students. Now, of course, it shouldn't be my concern just because they're Lutheran but it's us a special concern to me because I've had met a great number of these do when last year 483 young people from the Manama Lutheran School left Rhodesia. Zimbabwe came across the Shona River the Shawshank a river that is in to Botswana. It was a chance to meet them in to sit with them out in the clearing. And to talk about what they were doing. At least our young people teenagers, I mean 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 16 years old and they come out of the pietist Christian tradition has the most of these blacks. They wanted to sing hymns. They wanted to pray they want to read from their Bibles. Now, they know full well that they're going to be taking a Russian gun and entering into the battle for the liberation of their country. They are not violent people they hate violence, but they see this is the only way of freeing themselves from it and oppressive in a violent situation from which they suffered far too long. That's interesting perspective that these people who are fighting for the liberation of Zimbabwe are indeed people who are in the pietistic Christian tradition. I think the information that we've gotten out of Africa at 2 are the worldwide press tends to give us the impression that although we may disagree with the the politics and the racial Prejudice of of the government's and power that somehow these Guerrilla forces are Lawless groups of people and it really is an interesting impression to hear you describe. These people is as young people who are serious and their religion and so forth and you see that They said that the information is coming out of Africa has been distorted and in the past few years was, you know our releases from Rhodesia Zimbabwe come out of Salisbury They are transferred the transmitted to the wire services. The other side those people in the majority who are black who are struggling against Great odds for some sense of dignity and freedom in and equality. They have really no press Oh, you can consider the media there on the 4th of May Ascension Day for those who are within the Christian tradition a day. You talked about the lordship of Christ in the world. Are there at the South African Army invades our supported refugee camps in southern Angola 20 thousand refugees mainly young people and some older people. It's not a military camp at all. It's 7:15 in the morning. First come the French Mirage troops plans and rain down these the shower bombs. And about 15 minutes later, the C-130 Hercules American made plans with 1500 paratroopers and they fall upon this place with automatic fire and with canisters of poison gas. Well, it's only because we have other contacts rather than the normal ones that we have extensive documentation on these piles and piles of bodies of young people and you can see the the children there and then the girls with their Calico dresses and their genes piles of bodies covered with blood and dirt. We have the documentation but not through the normal sources, but but through sources we can trust and we know. No. I won't say that the motivation is totally racial but there are racial implications and assumptions behind it. I don't know if we looked at these pictures and saw hundreds of white young people piled so high weather are we action in this country would be quite the same. Now this happened that these people killed on May 4th or 90% Lutheran. That should make no difference to anyone. Who's Lutheran. But the fact that they are people but they are as we say children of God people entitled to dignity. That should make a great deal of difference to us. Why in the face of this we still? Tolerate any measure of the apartheid system is beyond me that point should be Beyond discussion, but it's obvious that people who are of Goodwill and good mind. Sometimes do not get the news and I think you're right on target there. When you point to this difficulty in communication, we get one picture and it's a picture of a few white missionaries being killed and we immediately attribute that to the terror of of what we call gorillas. The other side of that picture is that is the fact that we will give no attention. To 1000 black young people who have been killed quite apart from their roots in the Christian faith. What I think is happening here is that we're pushing these people further and further by default in the direction that they really don't want to go that direction of Marxism and communism. We're really in their in their bones. There are people who fear of God by virtual most of their being African but who are part of the Christian tradition also by virtue of the missionary Enterprise that's being made to another question last night at this convention of the American Lutheran Church. There was a hearing an open hearing held on the investments in South Africa that the church has through companies which they invest in. And I wonder if indeed well in the church has denounced apartheid in South Africa calling it sinful State and yet the church continues to invest in companies that do business in South Africa last night. There were arguments on both sides of this issue. So I'm saying that the only moral thing for the church to do is to divest itself of its interest in these companies that do business in South Africa. Others said that I had to stay in those companies because they have leverage with those companies to do see that they do the right thing in South Africa. What do you think of this this whole discussion inside the church? Where do you think the church ought to come down? So I see certain Division and a good healthy division on this subject. It's not easy. It's difficult. But one thing I want to say and that is that we cannot assume that because we have Investments that we are willfully supporting apartheid that is to say the church is taking a position against apartheid in the only matter for us is just to decide how best we can do. Are we have no time for people who support apartheid? No, does the church Council of the American Lutheran Church that maintains certain limited very limited actually investment. And the question before them is precisely as you've outlined should we divested in one Fell Swoop make a a sign of our protest or should we maintain minimal investment so that we can have a voice at shareholders meetings and try to get these companies to change their policies. A particular office deals with the largest mining operation in the media, which is the Newmont Mining Company the tomb of mines. On May 2nd of this year. I brought the stockholders resolution on behalf of Gettysburg Seminary of the Lutheran Church and the United Church of Christ together only 10,000 shares of common stock but enough to give us some influence influence of the tsumeb mines where Obama bows from the north work on the contract labor system, which we oppose. But we have made some dent in those labor and hiring practices now is building a 1,500 units. I'll actually about 1,700 units. I've got 400 400 done about 25 units already constructed David Price from the American Lutheran church together with Robert Marshall at the Lutheran Church in America. It's president went to the zoo map talk to the people Help to get the black labor union course, there are no labor unions, but there is a a black Council now that can debate with management and has some authority to talk with them to see the new high school. If there had not been this pressure. We would have no high school. We have would have no units we would not have pressure the South African government controlling wives and children of workers to come and live in these homes. The question is is that worth it in this day and age It seems it might be counterproductive because we might just be doing Band-Aid type work on the other hand. We might be serving to pacify. The people are dull the sharp edge of their. Concern for a more radical change in the structures of their society. We are dependent on their word. We cannot make a decision and Investments on our own here in Moorhead Fargo area or Minneapolis in New York or anywhere in this country on our own. We are listening to the church leaders in in southern Africa and as you know, they're their word is divided many of them and I could name them right down say that we should maintain investment and maintain that leverage against the state others now are saying but in very cryptic way because they cannot say it out loud if they do they are subject under the terrorism act too expensive imprisonment. So the argument is it is difficult to discern as to what the church there is is actually saying but I would say this more and more their tendency is to say disinvest. They realize that they are going to be the first to suffer unemployment is rampant already. They say we have suffered so far. We're willing to suffer more and an even greater measure so that I more substantial change can be brought about now just before Secretary of Vance's secretary Vance's visit to South Africa a week ago. The bishop of the Obama Columbia Lutheran Church Bishop Leonard a wallet who is the voice of Namibia the voice of the people the security Council does not function without this man's voice the special session of the UN does not function without this man's presence. Send a telegram. To Secretary of ants in Waldheim indicating among other things that everything must now be done. To avoid all out War. South Africa has until the 23rd of this month October to respond to the 5 power proposal for the independence of Namibia. I read in this morning's paper that they have offered a rather lukewarm response, but perhaps a ground for discussing further, but the interesting thing was that the article rightly said that this was a move to forestall the discussion on sanctions and there you could lump the question of Investments. It's my feeling that we should move towards disinvestment more than we have in order to force the issue. That's right. That's right to force this issue and we should move towards sanctions which are much more important we must now to avoid military conflict. We should take the next step in that direction. That is to say we should ask the United States government to go along with the security Council resolution that would put economic sanctions on South Africa very difficult to enforce but so they should be in insisting on enforcing it from the side of the United States the United States could turn this situation around of that. I am convinced. It's only it's only a matter of our will to do that. This involvement in Africa and particularly the support of some of the Liberation groups in in Africa by the term or Federation in the world Council of churches is created Venom of fervor in this country there been national news magazine stories about it and giving giving the opinion that that the church and be involved in this way. I wonder if You perceive any yet? Difficulty on the part of the church in dealing with its members as as the church has taken action. I guess his it is money for Relief Aid such as money given to the Liberation groups in Africa coming harder from church members. How do you see this affecting the church and its members? It will have I believe a major effect on the church and its members it already has in talking with the president of the American Lutheran Church David Price yesterday. I find that he has had the Great Wave of concern and people should be concerned on the other hand. I think the following are our earlier discussion. This this is the whole matter of Aid to Liberation group should be put on the proper Foundation. Now, this is a question that you should rightly address to the World Council of churches perhaps in a different way since their approach to the to the whole problem is slightly different than that of the Lutheran World Federation where the World Council decision is to as a decision to give money actually to The Liberation groups the Lutheran World Federation. I will not do that. We will supply medicine blankets clothing food books and we will carry out the programs. We will deliver the goods. We will bring them into the camps. We will run the camps. Most of the camps are run by the department of World Service of the Lutheran World Federation and and it will be done with the with equity. There's no discrimination against groups inside the country of those outside, but it is done on the basis of need at the same time. We have taken a very firm stand that we would side with those who we risk to say are the oppressed in the situation and here we come to political considerations that the church cannot back away from and even if we should try to say but we have nothing to do with the political situation. There are certainly political assumptions in our decisions and implications of our act if we Act of the church has political implications I suppose one could say that the bottom line here is that the church is concerned to bring about Justice and dignity for all people. The church claims to stand in solidarity with those who are oppressed and listen to the voice of the oppressed take it signals from the oppressed. And it's a struggle in Ministry to bring about. Deliverance salvation, wholeness of Life freedom Are we especially concerned and in southern Africa? For a number of reasons I suppose one is that the governments of those countries the minority white governments claim to be Christian nations. We have a special Duty and obligation to address ourselves to those people especially because they're holding some while in southern South Africa about 23 million blacks in Virtual servitude and maybe about 9 million are somewhat Less in Rhodesia. That's a special concern for the Lutheran Church might be the fact that in the media for example over half of the population of nearly a million belong to the Lutheran Church. So that's really laid before us in a very special way as to how we we respond to their particular dilemma, which is also I would say our dilemma and it only remains for us to get out better information on what these groups are doing. I would venture to say that people do not really realize that these groups are essentially non-violent people. They have a hard violence. They are rooted in the Christian tradition anglicans Roman Catholics lutherans that mentioned I talked to some of them on the border area. They have no taste for and and some of them we've we've even brought to this country who are unwilling to the fight at this time the invasion of the camp this morning. I was a non-military camp. There are two parts to that camp a representative from our office visit to this Camp just a couple months ago is a boys camp in a girl's camp there you can go and you can see Lutheran World relief clothing food other things that we've supplied. These are a non-military group people who are part of the struggle, but nevertheless are not fighting at this time. All this Camp was wiped out according to preliminary reports with Napalm. It was leveled to the ground. No. How it can be that Christians in this country are citizens of this country should support a man like Ian Smith who has been responsible for the unbelievable. Oppression of the vast majority of people is beyond me. Dr. Paul we General Secretary for Lutheran World Ministries. He was in attendance at the recent National Convention of the American Lutheran Church held in Morehead one reason, the African situation was important at the Morehead convention was the presence of Bishop Josiah kabira of Tanzania, who is the president of the Lutheran World Federation, which is giving humanitarian Aid to both sides in the African conflicts. Also since the African turmoil is in computer has own backyard. He's very aware and concerned about the situation. I spoke with bishop bira and dr. Keith Britton the secretary for the United States of the World Council of churches, which is also been involved in the African conflict to Aid to the nationalists rebel groups We Begin by talking about the negative effects of the recent Rhodesian bombings on an already bad situation in my opinion. I think the situation in Rhodesia is very good this time. They think are those you can do something now to do it to prevent more bloodshed. By involving or or concerned or including the Freedom Fighters. And the three so-called internal settlement leaders in your opinion is the situation are more critical point now than it's ever been. Are we on the edge of a full-scale war in southern Africa in as much as People want to establish a so-called government without the front line. Presents a green door countries and excluding the freedom fighters on your phone, and Gabby and a settlement without them will cause the consequences which are may you read the two first grade. So you believe that the Freedom Fighters out to be included in a settlement. Dr. Benson, do you have an opinion on what's happening there and view of that situation where I think I would certainly agree with the Bishops observations. I think that in general has been through a council's position that an overall settlement including all parties is the only long-term solution and him basically the president of the cold internal settlement does not meet the criteria of black majority rule. And therefore it is it is temporary in the fact that Smith and his colleagues now are Forest incentives to accept the principle of an all-party negotiation. I think it's indicative of the central settlement did not work if it did work. I think they wouldn't tell you that. I don't think I could be in this country is a little American Poetry does understand the internal Dynamics in Africa. I think it's a kind of a hangover from the old Colonial. We're Africa was looked upon as kind of a sphere of influence in France and the Portugal and so for them in with our business and I'm surprised at the number of people who are well informed otherwise Reedy I've had to do a lot of for just to catch up on understanding the Dynamics of Africa. Clean myself. Why is that is it the fault of the press is it because the Press is in under white control in southern Africa both in Rhodesia? And in South Africa is that the reason for the misunderstanding is it simply racism on the part of whites in the United States that refusing to believe that the blacks and Africans can be masters of their own destiny. I must say that I am very deep-seated racism. Let me not in the kind of a Berber clay, but I kind of a kind of Suspicion or skepticism exist. I don't know but I Bishop Rivera, would you agree with this said that the people in America are generally uninformed and maybe as a result of racism in both breasts and in in the culture here, I don't disagree but I think it's different on the back of Americans. It may be that the year of everything. They have a good situation. And then maybe they don't know that there are people suffering going to be sad. Especially Africans. The African continent has suffered a lot since the Europeans came to our country and I think it's equation of educating the Americans about it different from them and we talked a pitbull but managing their own business and then helped to help them overcome any racism Order help. I mean racism in South Africa because the real racism is in South Africa have never seen racism here in South Africa white racism. And I don't think America is ever experienced such a such a thing as a birthday. So I think in my opinion even as opposed to question will be helping the Americans do know that there are other human beings. And since we live in the same world, we see Americans all over Africa to hundreds and so on it is time. They know that they need to contribute to this, and they have been getting you where you'll be living together and liberating other people who are being oppressed. Dr. Vinson you mention that the World Council of churches has been criticized for giving humanitarian Aid in the conflict in Rhodesia to the patriotic front, which is composed of the forces of Joshua. Nkomo and Robert Mugabe and the Lutheran World Federation has also been giving a humanitarian Aid in fact the educational center that was bombed the night before last. I understand it receives aid from the Lutheran World Federation. I wonder if I could have both of you gentlemen, on what do you feel is the Roar of the first of all, let me say that on the other hand. There's been criticism that the church hasn't been. Backing the revolutionaries enough. There has been criticism of church is holding a stock in businesses that do business in South African Rhodesia. I wonder if you could comment on what the rule of the churches and the Lutheran Church specifically not to be in this conflict. They may say something I think the church should not be identified self with the Freedom Fighters as such as baking them in terms of military actions, but do what you doing up to now give you married are you in Italian herb to them but very strongly because sometimes there's no other was going to do it and then and then you go dormant of the Financial help to support in South Africa national by multinational corporations and so on is actually against what you did the UN decided what the world can switch servers just asked me to Church's to do to convince the government send those corporations to withdraw money is from there. So I think the Judge would be full scale behind this but not in the form of the world but moral support and they're also material support in terms of Rehabilitation Center ization. What is happening in South Africa? Who are the people in the world like the u.s. Is very important because we might be talking to the wrong people all together in South Africa. Why is the problem is really outside? I mean those who supported stop supporting South Africa. I'm sure they would you saying that the sum of the corporations that prop up that economy. Maybe the people that we should be talking to you. I've said this again into me. We are talking to the wrong people in South Africa. They are dependent on my knees from outside. So they should be free skate even tried supporting and so on and so what should we do? If we don't support them, then we are not fulfilling our so I want you to call to wear today operation Wilcrest. Doctor Brixton. You have an opinion on this criticism. Well, I think it comes out of the church should be be a witness in active. What we like to party but as a presence in terms of certain ethical moral and spiritual issues that are at stake in and questions of people struggling against depression and for human rights, I think the truth can just stand outside and then be do nothing which seems to be the implication of some of the criticisms of the one instance one criticism came from a person from Norway in the Nazi occupation in fighting for our freedom. So why is it so quiet different in Africa very much involved in the struggle for freedom. And why that should be that principle should know not pertain to Africa is baffles me quite frankly. I wonder if you feel that the church should be doing more at this point. Well, I I I would agree with the Shakira ice or anything at all. It's strange to me. I think we are still in the United States in a kind of post-vietnam introversion. I think that experience made many people wary of involvements, especially those things. So I think that the American her standpoint the World Federation has been about time. We do get criticism for that. It was a pretty strange people get permissions for many years and then the product of the missionary Enterprises are educated autonomous groups seeking their own way and now it's almost as though we would say well now we regret what we were I wonder if you if you either of you have an opinion on what the American Lutheran Church at to do today. They will have a resolution coming before them to suggest that the American Lutheran Church divest itself of all its Holdings and companies that do business in South Africa. The National Church Council has recommended that they continue their support or continue their Holdings in those companies and their rationale is that by doing so they have leverage in those companies in there for a a voice and what happens in South Africa? Do you agree with that rationality. Dr. Benson Well, that's very difficult one and I suppose people of Goodwill and good conscience can disagree on it is a tactical question. I think I'd leave it and master Jung has been of the opinion that would actually hurt those until the black people are alright, you know what I know other friends of mine who are equally On the opposite side from you. I am more of the different opinion because the black people are suffering all the time even even when you you are supporting their they would be giving them this eight. So withdraw when you are not hurt them more than they otherwise they are suffering. So the suffering would not be increased by any grade measure with withdrawal of support for these support will be OneNote it hurt to them. W means jobs where they miss jobs day. They don't have good jobs in Saint even if the money still blowing but when you withdraw and join the others, then you a very common strategy against this evil. Skylar politics and in life in South Africa, then we shall see as we go along with the result of this but I think step against it and dr. Keith Bridgeton secretary for the United States of the World Council of churches both were in attendance at the National Convention of the American Lutheran Church held recently in Moorhead despite the presence of Bishop Cabrera and his beliefs that economic sanctions must be brought to bear on South Africa in order to effect changes in that Society the alc delegates stop short of approving the DLCs Holdings in companies that do business in South Africa. Brother the delegates follow the advice of their National Board of Trustees to retain their stocks and to use their voices as stockholders to affect change in the company policies with regard to South Africa. However, the trustees were charged by the convention to be aggressive in presenting their opinions to correspondence and attendance at stockholders meetings with the express purpose of speaking in support of the oppressed people of South Africa. There were however some delegates who felt that the action was not strong enough American Lutheran Church president David Price had this to say in response to their protest. I want simply to make a statement to clarify as clear as I can what I believe to be the attitude not only of myself but of those who are in positions of responsibility in the American Lutheran Church that we are looking for the strongest possible way to deal with this question. And that this motion that is before you is not an attempt to be to be mealy-mouthed or whistling with regard to them concerning South Africa. There is a difference of opinion not on the question of whether or not we want to oppose apartheid not on the question of whether we want to stand with our brothers and sisters in the Lutheran churches in those countries and respond to their request. The difference of opinions that arises in the area of how best to respond. And it is against that background that this kind of a judgment is made divestiture in my judgment would be the easiest thing in the world to do. And we have a one-time. Let's get rid of it and we might get a little publicity in the Minneapolis paper in the Des Moines paper and then maybe a 1-inch Ribbon The New York Times and then you're all done with it. This in my judgment commits Esther ongoing action in a way that puts us on the side of saying we're going to keep this thing hot. We're going to keep it on the agendas of the companies that are concern. And if we discover that they're not responding in a way that that that says something different is going to happen in South Africa. Then of course, we will divest and with all of the noise we can make but I just want to assure all of you as best I am able. To say that this kind of proposal this before you is not being made out of a desire to be to be timid or Toby week. It is precisely out of a desire to be strong and aggressive and the use what we were their best heads can conceive of is the best possible way to proceed at this time. Thank you. The Reverend David Price president of the American Lutheran Church speaking about the church's action on the situation in South Africa and important issue at the church's National Convention held recently in Moorhead. This is John. It's t