Thank you. Dan. Judge. Arthur is our midday guess today will be talking about current issues and legislation in juvenile justice for about the next half hour or so judge Arthur attended Princeton Harvard University of Minnesota served as a municipal court judge for 7 years and has been involved with Juvenile Justice and Hennepin County since 1961. He's now judge of the District Court juvenile division and is known nationally for his articles and speeches about Juvenile Justice. We're glad to have you with us this morning. Judge Arthur. Thank you, Mr. Minnesota. Legislature has passed some new laws during the last session that deals specifically with Juvenile Justice. But but before we discuss the effects of those laws, I'd like to talk a little bit about treatment and Rehabilitation and about juvenile crime at self much of what we hear in the area of Juvenile Justice Justice are instances of violent crime how much of juvenile crime is violent? And is it increasing percentage?Well take the last question first. There was a call him yesterday the Minneapolis Sunday Tribune editorial page which talked of soaring juvenile crime rates and such hyperbole. Is that the end of getting that they're the thing is really going to pot the contrary which the Tribune could have learned if they just taking the time to read it is a report that came out just last week from the Hennepin County criminal justice Council which points out the juvenile crime in Hennepin County including the city and the suburbs is down 23% of think. It was last year and last year was down 23% from the year before so you'll know Primus and soaring juvenile crime is declining part of that is because we have left juveniles it because the birth rate thing but the decline in juveniles is far less than the decline in the crime rate. So actually we're improving is that decline in the juvenile crime rate is that also apply to violent crime has their so-called I forget the phrase category 1 offenses, which are theMajors is the one that I was referring to down 23% each of the last two years earlier this month in New York Governor. Kerry said that are made a proposal that juvenile Killers be in prison for life rather than the maximum sentencing at that of 18 months that they now sore. Is there a national Nationwide get-tough policy on juvenile crime at this point? I don't think there's a national weather is a course in New York and Chicago and some of the very large industrial cities are having their own problems. We're not having that kind of a problem. This is this is God's Paradise kind of a thing in Hennepin County. We're ahead of the rest of the country in a lot of these areas, but we can sit and sew child right now. If he's 14 years of age to life in Minnesota under our present. We certify him to the adult system take him out front of the general quote protections certify him the adult system. He's tried like an adult can be sent to prison for life so that we have this now and we do in Hennepin County recertify. I suppose 15 to 20 every year to the adult system. I spent the morning on a case just like that so that we have the the facility for moving into the adult system here. There was a report from the Hennepin County Attorney's Office about a year ago saying that more juveniles should be certified to stand trial as adults. Are you getting a lot more cases? They are filing a lot more emotions and I think it sounds very good to ask for this kind of emotion and then put the heat on the court and the justice system as to whether to Grant the Motions, but the legislature in Minnesota is set down to very specific limits if they if those are met we must certify if they're not met. We cannot certify the Supreme Court of Minnesota is analyze those two requirements very finely they've got it down in case after case to precisely when you was mustard. If I am precisely when you cannot and our hands are we haven't I have no particular discretionary freedom. I listen to the facts and once the facts are found where the the the certification or not certification is just automatic under the law. I was wondering a little bit about that if if you feel comfortable with with the certification being that strict as far as you like my day of the guidelines by the legislature and by the Supreme Court, my objection would be the other side and Fashion show and I have been badly on this for years. He's close down all security facilities for juveniles in this in this state. We are the only state in the whole 50, but have no security facilities for juveniles. That means we hit any time a kid is any kind of a risk? We've got a certified him and send him st. Cloud to Stillwater where he's going to be mixed with all the adults and subject to all the problems including a major problem homosexual rape because there is nothing else in this state that secure except st. Cloud that you were used to have one but the commissioner close to town so my argument is not with the legislature standards my argument certainly not with the Supreme Courts interpretation of those my argument is the fact that I have to certify a lot of kids. I don't want a certified because there is no secure facility for juveniles what has happened. I understand that. I guess it was three years ago you commanded and then ordered that secure facility for juveniles be established in either build or remodel what happened to that proposal in that ordering Supreme Court, Said that I had no Authority under our present legislation that the commissioner of Corrections can run his own show in whatever way he wants to run it that I could not intervene to require him to change his program had a program where they were badly beating a child and we are I order them to provide a different program in the Supreme Court reversed me again and said no you can't do anything in there. The legislature is given the commissioner of Corrections total power. Is that how he will use his facilities in his programs and the court may not intervene to change those orders. What is what is the objection that the commissioner of Corrections has to providing a facility like this is it might be much better if you ask the commissioner. I don't like to be his Advocate but I gather what he is saying is that if a kid is so dangerous that he needs security certify him send him a Saint Cloud to Stillwater. Why should we build a separate place for kids? And my response quickly to to the argument, I think he would make is that I think we can do a lot more to protect the public in the future by treating kids as kids and treating them with other kids, even though they're very dangerous kids. We can do a far better job of getting him back on the streets safe if we work with him as kids in a kids program, then we can be moving him into an adult program and obviously they're all going to get back on the street someday a very few people serve a life sentence until death to pay despite what the paper Macy from time to time. Even a life sentence in Minnesota can be paroled eventually. So they are coming back on the streets. We can bring them back safer if we can put them in a juvenile program if we have to put him into an adult program. Do you know how many juveniles would be affected if if there was such a security institution that you would like to see there was a group in Hennepin County last year and it's what some people call a blue ribbon group study this thing rather carefully and we came up that if you had 24 beds of security for the state. Minnesota at least for the metro area that would probably take care of our needs around here. I was I understand. It's either the nearest to that of any state Massachusetts 5 days of security. We think we could get along fine with 24, but they won't give us any what we're talking about is maximum security Institution for violent and repetitive are absconding use. What about the other juvenile crime that you see the so-called status offenders could you or is it was a very violent crime then there's the non-violent crime and then there's the status offense and the bulk of what we see is in that middle ground of car theft larceny burglary. So I like that the nonviolent crime how you mentioned the status offense in this is conduct, which is it illegal for children, but it's not illegal for adults and the legislators change the rules on that rather drastically partly in response. To a federal program in order to get a few hundred thousand dollars a Federal grant. They had to go along with saying that but basically taking our final cut away from us and all the status offense programs. So to a great extent they have repealed the compulsory School attendance law and they have said that children can run away from home and there isn't really much that anybody can do about it and children can drink and they can smoke and there is really very much any more than anyone can do about it. We can we can try to persuade them. We can talk nicely to them. But we have an effect on cloud left and dealing with these kids and that the rationale is that they're what's the kitchen up something that's it illegal for is not illegal for adults should not be illegal for children. I disagree. I think there's a great difference between adults and children and children need some extra protections, but the legislature changed their I understand that one of the laws that they passed is going to be going into a fact a week from tomorrow on August 1st. You explain what that might involve. I've had don't know the one It has to do with the detention or will we put that into effect as soon as I passed it? And so we're at we're under those rules now that card policy in and then it will be by law, August one. So we no longer detain status offenders for more than 24 hours and we are preferably do not detain them even for 24 minutes because once we get them in the doors of the juvenile center, everybody says, it's our problem to find something for the 24 hours goes by and there is no place to put them and we just have to push them out in the streets. So when parents are bringing us their recalcitrant kids or when the schools are sending a summary of the police are bringing kids in off the street. We are rarely taking the children anymore. We just saying we're sorry, but the legislature is made this impossible. Are you able to refer them to additional group homes and Foster homes? We can refer them to the shelter run by Saint Joseph's which is an excellent shoulder but it's a shelter. It has no security and when the kids get in there, they must be told right away. You're free to leave anytime you want and this is this is kind of tricky when you get some of the girls running the streets at night and you can't demonstrate prostitution. You suspect it's there and you'd like to have some kind of a cooling-off period for a few days or a week or so until you can talk to the girl get her back to her family if you can and we've got some programs are pretty successful getting kids back to their families if we can talk to him for a while, but now there's nothing much we can really do about it my place I guess it's pretty well stopped arresting kids like that. What would you like to see as an alternative to that granted that the lies the law? But what would be your recommendation? I'd like to get back to where we can hold these kids for a cooling-off period some states have got 72 hours again * 24, but if we had 72 hours or 96 hours We had a week or so to begin to try to talk to the kids and cool off the crisis that got the girl to run away from home in the first place and a and a cool the thing down for a while until we can get some pretty some good people who to get back and talk to the girl talk to her parents and try to intercede there for a while. I think we could do and we would continue to do as we did in the past. I think we were doing a good job of resolving a lot of these disputes now, it's a hands-off policy and we'll just have to wait till they violate some law commit a crime before we can get into it. What sounds just from what we said then that there's on the one hand a loosening up of the laws affecting the people who are status offenders and perhaps a toughening up on the policy of trying to have more juveniles be tried as adults for the more serious crimes I think is generalization that agree with it. Is that happening across the country as far as you know, are there other states who have passed legislation similar to a Minnesota's as far as loosening up for the Status offense thing. I mentioned to get a Federal grant of a few hundred thousand you had to go along with this and several States California was the first I know Arkansas. It's got the same law how many states are doing this? It's part of that old thing the federal government tells you you can do as you please but if you want my money you got to do it our way. So they have told us on this you don't have to do this. But if you want my money you've got to do it our way. So for the state of Minnesota to get some hundreds of thousands of federal funds we had to do it their way every other states going to have to face the same decision either give up federal money or take Federal money on and control from the central government. As far as the violent juveniles who are sent to St. Cloud their tried as adults and sent to st. Cloud Reformatory de saint-cloud treat those juveniles in any different way than than any other people at the institution know by their policy. They specifically do not there manual says that anyone who comes here will be treated like regardless of age race Creed color and so on so on so on so they are all treated the same are they are they are treated two different programs and may appear there's a program for chemical abuse has a program for this and that and the other thing but that's open to all not just the kids are not started out. Anyway, it's a little unclear as are they juveniles, who are They're as adult serving adult sentences or the Gentiles who are serving their as adult serving juvenile sentences know they are adults serving adults sentences. They are certified and they become the same as though they were 25. Once we certify them. They become a total adult at that point that you get an adult trial and adults sentence and they may be sentenced to life imprisonment or 25 years in prison or whatever. As a judge do you feel that you have enough options in terms of where to place and went where to send a lot of the juveniles who comes through your courts? And Hennepin County. I certainly do we have a county that's been very good to his children. I think and has provided quite a few resources. Obviously, there's never quite enough obviously when you want to send a kid and more and more Racine kids who are under the influence of chemicals and to this end up being not just a drinker but an alcoholic type of a thing and sometimes we have to wait for an 8 weeks before we can get that child into a facility. But usually we have something available. We're better off than almost any county in the state Toyota it certainly any county in the state may be any County in the country on this within the system as far as efficiency and Speedy trials in and whatnot. Are you fairly satisfied with how that is currently am satisfied but come August 1st. I will not be because the the bottleneck in a system of justice is the trials that up until now the referees have been able to try cases as of August first they can no longer try cases in juvenile court. They can try cases in family. Bergdorf Goodman municipal court or any other court, but they can't try cases in juvenile court anymore. And this means it in effect. I've lost one judicial person one judge if you will out of the juvenile court, and I've got to get that person replace somewhere or I try I was going to buy a begin to a bottleneck. We were on the basis of about a 3 to 4 week delay between the denial and the trial now, they told me this morning was scheduling cases and October which means we're already three months back logging just because come August 1st. I'm the only one that can try cases and one person can't do two people's work, even though we start at 8:30 and go to five. Are you expecting some other major changes as a result of the different laws that have gone into one of the major changes at the legislature said that in Hennepin and Ramsey the judge must rotate and the other cozy. It's okay to have a juvenile court judge stay in the job fair for life, but in our counties you can only stay for up to three years and it's hard to get somebody to go for 3 years because that's that's not enough to really get into it make a career out of it so that they're not willing to get into this very complex court and take all the training and backgrounding that's necessary. So we're having difficulty finding a judge to replace been yet. I must be enforced out of the court in the near future and then somebody else is going to come in presumably to people because of this trial law and they will come in on a rotating basis, which I think is going to make a really major change in the cart. We will and Ramsey are supposed to be Jacks of all trades and master of none. What time does one of the things that is that is mentioned a lot or at least in the past there has been a great Reliance on training programs for juveniles. Can you explain what a training program is in and what what it really consists of? Well, when we talkin about kids we are usually trying the whole Juvenile justice system is different than the adult system in the icatch where it is individualized Justice. We're trying to look at not with the child did so much is why he did it and who he is and where he's coming from and what do we have to do to change that particular child which means we have to analyze that kid has an individual and find out what makes him tick find out what we have to do to help him rather than punish the offense and punish every person who steals a car exactly the same we try to find out what why did this kids steal the car? Why did that kid steal the car now? What do we have to do not to punish him for something in the past. What do we have to do? So they won't come and steal another car in the future. So we're always kind of looking to tomorrow and seeing what we have to do with a child to do that you have Do a lot of analyzing of the particular child and then you have to do almost treatment programs training try programs. If the kids problem is that he's having a difficulty with reading let's get him to a reading person. And if this is why he's running the streets and won't go to school. Let's get him into a special kind of a program for that or if the kid can't cope with the community doesn't know how to know how to get along with people. Let's get him to somebody that will help him get along with people and that's oversimplifying but he's having problem with the chemicals. Let's get him into a chemical program St. Marys or something like that and teach him to cope with chemicals. Those are training programs. Okay. Thanks very much for talking with us this morning.