well once when I was in Rome, I went to church and it was called San Clemente. I don't know. play small church and all the street level with some wonderful 14th century Marcelino, wonderful 14th century Fresco to the teacher. Masaccio Mausoleum and 1514 Century Decor someone and Then you go. There you go down like in the catacombs and there's early Christian art. Remember, I mean 1st century art and where the early Christians met underground and they were like goes like a conversation pit. And I had their rights there. Of course Fresco's, you know Christ and fishes and someone and it is beautiful you are done by then, you know, we all love untrained artists days. Is that one quality. I need to criticize drawing all that, but I didn't but the quality of CNN News and then I started thinking that just imagine these things were done and up on the street where these real was official Lord, you know, big colossal statues of Caesars Little Caesars in Saint Augustus. And he was this sign painted this sign painting art down below and but you couldn't help you in Norma's. culture above to extol the power of the state and so on Roman Empire and here's this underground fervor. Well, that's not answering that. The future for the art world to spell it out is go deep deep underground in the fervent belief and series is the otherwise. The only alternative is be part of the system. That's the whole story. Why you so there I gave him I think a good answer to what you think is a stupid. Okay. Alright Rosenberg. Do you have something? I thought the answer this question now, I'll go along with it. Rich Homie conclusions about it. So I'll read it to you and do the best I can with it when you were introduced last night mention was made about your ideas concerning on an morality also about how in this culture spirituality is pre-eminently the demesne of the artist. I would like you to comment along these lines particularly addressing the distance and isolation of art activity from the general culture. To whip can I not be socially catalytic or cogent can the ideals and visions of Jefferson Dewey and lasecki be fulfilled in this culture. How do I statical and ethical judgement in there? Are they complimentary or indeed the same? Let me see. I said course of course mind of the question. I rather than on the paper, which is produced. He's wondering about whether change the side in some way or make it better. I want to know how is static and ethical judgments interact? I suppose a few. If you have a society in which ethics has a used as they used to let's say in Victorian society that used to look at the moral message about working at that time is that I can and moral judgments or is he said that's what is the rock age of that in modern art? Some people talk about the authenticity of a work of art the authenticity of a work of art news to impart an ethical judgement human that the artist has really experience the ride Deep Way what has gone into the picture and that's sense. You're making Hepaco judgment to go work tomorrow to get on say this is a good work of art because it says it has another topic our relations forms or anything like that if you say they're working. So I think that that's very important. I don't think you can separate judgments of works a lot from ethical and more specifically introduce morality or ethical judgments into evaluating the problem before anything happened to After being called an old-fashioned that's something like that. So. But then when you were put your shell together Bad Penny, you don't think a bad people. You're just a bad Penny Lisa. Monologue. How do you feel about don't you feel that? I have a moral element. You are mean to me. I just assumed. Not even questioning assumption in like tacitly that I'm part of the human race. That's not anything. I knew you know, if nobody understands that it doesn't bother me too much. Feel anything a human being feels. Is fine is it send it just on the basis that human being killed in other words? I don't want to sound like call Mystikal if I feel it. The millions who feel you know, if they haven't felt it yet. They will call you when you use the word moral. Ron Howard to feel it all over blonde to the human race. They don't want their work to be contaminated by this fact. I mean, I don't believe art is Art in life is letting the real mixed up. I love that mixer soup. And another question is the better one inside of this question. They rolled up in here like this. The question is it relates to the distance and isolation of art activity from the general culture. This is a very important question which open talking about the general culture being nice cause they the kind of entertainment and thought that I could pies and most of the people all of the most of the time and I think something for minority that's what's implied. He is it 15 or 20 years is the progressive breaking down of the isolation the weather that's put a bad is something to be debated, but there is would be enormous increase in museum attendance enormous increase in attendance at lectures enormous increase In coverage in popular magazines and on television of art this isolation and distance to use the question is has been breaking down to a law degree and we assume that it will snow and diamonds to the yard switch is plugging in Iowa with everybody is very optimistic about what they called me General Improvement in the public taste and I ventured to doubt that there is Improvement of public taste and a reason I doubt of it. that was always busy mechanics, but nobody ever said that the stuff in the museum was lousy now in the old days when they protest about that was shown today that such a general Improvement the public Why would they why would they didn't like the work? I think so if they feel it in my private sphere have felt it in the museum. no one here is weather of do late 40s or of your late 60s or maybe even earned by long and serious despair. Can a very young artist be desperate enough to be this free? Will that reminds me? I mean, I don't know how to answer with her young hearts. The implication here is a desperation is a value spare is a value. And it reminds me I have to talk and stories. I don't know. I think I mentioned yesterday that runs Costco's perhaps one of my favorite writers was influencing a great deal and there's a biography of cop killed by his very very dear and close friend named Max Broad and they were so close to pee dinner every night. I mean that every night we're together. And brought goes by to pick up his dear friends the boarding house and sees his light is on. So he thinks he's writing. Because he hadn't been real kind of a block. He hadn't written it for a year and we all know, cuz life and he had his lousy job and had to write in between times and she doesn't bother prawns and then he comes by the lights still on becomes by 2 in the morning the light still on he doesn't want to disturb you and At 5 in the morning is light is still on. So Broad. You know walks around the block he figures it close genius friend is on the something and then John Kafka comes down the steps. beaming Halos around said, you know an ore of light all around the big smiles. He had written that night in one night in one sitting is short story metamorphosis. And boy, that's no that's not story. That's like an element of you know real real. despair but despair I need this sounds as if I'm I really enjoyed a guy. I mean sounds as if I go around to sparing all the time. I don't you know, I'm like Kafka. I mean when I paint one of those pictures I couldn't be happier. I roll down on the floor of myself giggle laugh Halos around lights. 23 credits for 431 a bear or black lugs all the writers and young adults was Despair and all the additional Point incidentally in that story. Can't stop me when I get started. about virtue definitions about art many artists writers like full bear bait many definition Of those few. I think Mom was when he made in one of his notebooks. Would you probably know and I think this answers another question for you at all related. He he says art. Well after he realizes situation after the family realizes what's happening their son. He pokes his head in the bedroom into the living room where they eat and there's a some little small apples on the table by this time. They know what's happened to their son. I mean family, you know, they don't know how to deal with his head out. Gregor samsa in the father in disgust picks up a whole bunch of these little apples. And flings as Gregor. And they roll all over the floor, you know, like golf balls and but one lodges itself in his armored back, you know, if what you been thinking must be some kind of hard shell Beetle has become a kind of bug. And so in this aphorism, he says art should be like the Apple. That launches itself in Gregor samsa's back. Beck's is the social body. In other words. Someone is one of these questions should art be so short effect. Yeah are the factors which influence on me. I mean, I think it should be Like that Apple lodging itself in the back unmovable. I mean you can't get it out. It's large there. And I think that's what happens to part. Someone comes along once in awhile, and it's like that Apple its sticks. And then gradually affects people's Consciousness overtime. So art is social is political. I mean something's wrong if you come into His show exhibition and you say yatchy. That's beautiful. That's beautiful as beautiful and I fall asleep and means it's so expectations are met. You know, who is a what would you call an art professional and someone from the general public is that many of us learn to recognize those feelings of hostility or anger or resistance to something sure after many years as a place to go a little further and explore a little further and that's why I think a lot of Who are not artists right? And that is said that we never end up taking things for granted. You don't walk up to something say oh, yeah, that's the next thing is I don't like it you have as a professional obligation to say not to ask why you don't like it but to share that Exploration with the public. That's the next. How do you intend to make the works you show more accessible to the audience in lieu of the kind of personal access you share with artists and the answer is by writing if the artist is going to take an enormous chance in his or her work and if you feel that that work in some way deserves to be shared with the public at Large. Even though that you run the risk of they're ripping it Off the Wall the least that the art interpreter, the museum professional can do is to provide a really serious critical scholarly framework for the work that doesn't mean an explanation of the work on his things. I I think I despise more than anything in the world is the wall label and I don't know if you will have noticed that the wall label is now taking over like a giant fungus it to covers more exhibition space Oh, that's a good one. And it tells you exactly what to look at how much time you should spend looking at it what direction you should go in the museum and it gives you such interesting and pertinent fact as the size the medium the date it's I think the kind of information that any interested Provoked person can get by going to the library or better yet by buying a catalogs. It's all in there, but I don't think that we should tell anyone how to look at Art. But I do think it's terribly important to provide the context. I think that if art is a commodity that's created by one Leisure Class for another Leisure Class. It is not enough. I think that our does exist in this social political cultural economic climate. I also think that the best start in some very interesting and strange and elliptical way relates to thinking that is going on in the Sciences in Psychology and Mathematics and anthropology in architecture name the field. There's always an incredibly interesting connection so that at least for me and my riding I have always tried in some way to find out how the specific works of art that I was dealing with participated in the world and to try to share that as as as much as possible in my riding. I'm going to answer this even a little more thoroughly when it when I let them doing an exhibition, which is a retrospective exhibition of a single artist. I do not talk to the artist about his or her work. I don't ask questions about the artist intent. What I do is I hang out for a couple of years and try to see how that artist responds to the World At Large and makes them off and very uncomfortable because I don't ask a single question about the work. I think the work should speak. Itself, and I think that if I pay enough attention it will if I can immerse myself thoroughly enough in it it will but the reason that I do what I do. It's like being a reader an Avid Reader. It seems to me that when I finally am able at the end of an exhibition having worked with the artist having worked with the work looked at the work written about it that I have in an odd metaphorical sense immersed myself in the person that is it says W had gone down to the top of their head and fitted your hands and feet into theirs and been able to look out through their eyes and through your own at the same time on to the world and therefore the world is changed and if your eye is the way you see is changed as I said yesterday then who you are is changed and I found that I could live many lives. I know that sounds horrendous. Romantic and poetic but there it is. Is it possible that you could be so enraptured by the personality in a kind of Interest a person has and that you will eventually calm yourself as good as beautiful and I tell you most most artists when you're doing a major show. There was very very nervous understandably. So the worst of a person comes out at that time every every neurotic trait and character is right there and partly curators always joke about her having to be combination mother father psychologist. We turn into Valium dexedrine New York have anything that is what we become so indeed, but do let me explain further involved with the work and one of the things about being a Professional in this has happened to me many many times is that I have had in a really long lasting connection with the work and have found an absolute need to show that work for it for many many reasons and have been contacted the artist and begun the long series of steps that lead to a good working relationship. I have had impossible artist. I have had people do things that note that human being should not do to each other in a working situation and I do it because I believe in the work but very rarely one becomes really close friends with The Artisan that has happened to me what I want ultimately out of my work is this and I will tell you I'll tell you a story. Getting into feels like an exhibition for Lee krasner who at her best is utterly charming and at her worst is irascible and difficult. Again. This is a moment of very great tension because Lee had not had a major exhibition in the United States. She was in her sixties and deserve one. She had been hidden behind Pollock for most of her life. I heard them the infamous bilirubin was on an ex was on a show about women's movement years ago that I was on and he was asked whether the weather he felt that he had really been discrimination against women in the in the art world and Lee krasner was on that show too. And absolutely not. He said, I mean there is no conscious discrimination. He said you take Lee Pollock here. She's been a wonderful painter. Okay. So here's a story. I do not let artist install their exhibitions unless they it is absolutely necessary unless the nature of the work demands it because what I would like is to allow the artist for once to see his or her work with fresh eyes, and that's the same thing about the writing. So I asked Lee to please go home and come down and I would install the Show and I would give her a day to look at the show and make sure that it was perfect and it was what she wanted. So I finally install the Show much to my satisfaction called her up and she came in very dressed up an extremely tense and she sailed into the show and she looked around in complete silence for at least a half an hour during which time I bit off all my nails is the artist is the only one ultimately besides yourself in that situation that you want to please. And trailed around behind her and she finally got into the back room of small back room where you are very very large paintings installed and I was right behind her waiting for her response and she leaned against the wall and she looked around after half an hour and she muttered, you know, pretty damn good payment. That's what you want. But nowadays, I mean these decades assumption is that the art writer or curator things you do did. Shouldn't be involved in the artist. I think this totally wrong. I mean I think is that the writer should be as close to the Artist as possible eat sleep with him. Someone apollinaire remembers cutest meditations talks about sitting with Picasso and he says they became fast friends of court. I use as I hope I get it right you probably remember it's better than I do, but he said eyes rolled my eyebrows very anxiously know. It's really nice. So I see not only no reason but in fact it's a decided. value That the writer. Gets totally mm ball. With the artist in his totally sympathetic. In fact, that should be a prime condition. I mean there seems to be in these decades more and more for detachment. Don't get to know the artist to well now why what is this to develop? I mean all through history until the last few decades. Writers critics Museum people got all involved with the artist sympathetic is the criticism of people want to know what is this object stack up with other object by the same artist and with other object by other artists and then immediately goes to the payoff which is how much is it worth in terms of cash, which is something that the public feel that has a right to ask a Critic to decide. Will it be worth more 20 years from now than it is today or am I going to lose my money and sell the critic in that sense is Like the kind of expert that you want that public turns to in connection with the stock market or football games. In other words, you're supposed to know about this now tell me what the score is about these things and that is the transaction. Now, there's another kind of criticism which has a totally different approach and that is why you are attempting to give a concept A Creative a quality of the work in relation to other forms of creation. Now that we got into a really important problem, which is what is the relation between the personality of the artist and that in him which produces works a lot. A mysterious thing is divided between a double girlfriend magical data, which is unrelated to that particular form that the artist developed self which produces his work and that stuff also tends to get more and more complicated and wants to make a mask. The projection of the not self express what's not media and it is certainly true because it's Rockstar expressed himself. You can be sure there would have been no fighting around about the acquisition. Roscoe that everybody was interested in Creative. Not sure that the iWatch you have to know the another word for the critic in that sense. He becomes a diviner and very often the clues about the individual what you did would not get to just by knowing him. What is the question which is a very common question Maybe. And I I should answer it and then maybe the other people here can add to it. So how does one earn their right to Freedom is development of academic skills in the art schools and necessary process should art be taught cannot be taught but it's very common question is the middle one. How does one earn a right to Freedom is electric, but I'm always asked. But I had to take what I advocate is development of academic skills in the art schools in the size of Terry s a process to earn this freedom. I mean that's always ask. So when I teach and I talked the way I do and teach the way I do question always is yeah, but that's all right, but shouldn't we first learn how to paint? You know, you learn how to do it now? And my answer is no that is to say I think right from the start. I need a little bit like, you know Mama telling you to Eat Your Spinach now, it turns out that spinach causes cavities, but you're supposed to eat you get the goodies what I mean? And then the question is is the art can be taught. Me that's obvious. What you do? What you can do is create a certain atmosphere were some kind of electricity catches and then you have to grab ahold of a person where you touch him and he goes my old either she goes in mile, you know, you don't consider teaching schools. I've observed have this idea that you have this training which is usually one of the Doing what appears to be accomplished painting and then afterwards you go on your graduate school and then you learn to fly a little bit. I think that's totally fallacious because what they're learning is how to render how to render those apples on the table or whatever. So, you don't sound setup renewed all that furniture around everything right from the start. A good teacher good school and Ideal school should make it so that right from the beginning. The young person is shoved in feet first into the whole problem though whole dilemma the whole mix up. and work out of that see this question is based on the fact that there such a thing as technique and the reason is no such thing as does the new just text me cuz I mean what technique Got everything it was wild laters on a matter of fact in relation to what it is so much anymore. But one thing there are lots of schools. Well, I visited I say that they're you still taking perspective and rendering and on the table and if there's another kind of academicism that I've seen where you walk into a school and you find that everyone is doing a certain kind of landscape painting that's more like my experience at the moment you find everybody doing Who are the men in my life. They're all doing projections and I never I never met any of them. But what you say, of course, Philip is perfectly true. I don't think that I mean it is by studying the properties of Robert. You want set under the cushion of gasoline in Article 1 art schools. I think you were a little distressed with this matter. You know that I had an argument reverse these about your peace. And which I defend you and I need a different store and because she has certain ideals which I totally agreed. That art today is a real dilemma and really teach art in the school. The student should enter immediately into this dilemma and a good teachers the one who is able to analyze and describe what the Dilemma is. Mr. Rosenberg has a question potentially related to what do you think is the significance of the present chaos and confusion. Could it be a Harbinger for political social upheavals? And the other question is I think it was Trotsky who said something like the time is ripe on the vine. Forever Aleutian parentheses internationally indeed. So ripe that it is beginning to rot. Is this another way of expressing the idea of the tradition of the new questions without being really question as far as the present chaos and confusion and quotes in being a harbinger of political and social upheavals. Of course. It doesn't have to be a Harbinger because we have plenty of a political and social upheavals going on all the time. I mean, there is no doubt that there is a connection between my dilemma is as we've been calling them in art and they Mitek destabilization of all forms of life in our time including the dollar I mean practically every day since the question is really is there a relationship between what's going on in aunt and what's going on in society? I think you're undoubtedly the answer is yes, and it has been so now at the century after me buddy who is let's say 70 years old today and that's about as old as you tend to get there has not been a single. Matt person's life in which there is not some terrible State of Affairs going on. I mean beginning with World War 1 Which would mean that that person was 7 they would be about 6 years old at the time that started and after that came the twenties and upheavals in Europe and then came the thirties with the depression with the Nazis in World War II some Dreadful State of Affairs from capturing. Everybody's attention to the point. Where shortly after the war with a scab Atomic Warfare came up at people while actually did lose their balance. They couldn't even do anything that we say about art. Internet problem Timmy impermanence and its loss of standards and its confusion has to be seen against that background of a Popoli destabilize existence both domestically in this country with all the right problems with all the problems of crime and in the world situation, which is a constant overhanging threat of Extinction. Somebody handed me a question the other day by mail thing. Do you think there is any possibility that our civilization as it is will last till the end of the century? How to how I know whether it's going to last till the end was nobody knows but the implication would last for another 20 years. I mean hanging by a wonderful way of seeing a hair materializes itself in the best activities of human beings. That is the same creative activities. Since the subject was we were talking about that are at that truly bad as that is not. I mean really lousy art no matter how it looks beautiful and we see tons of it. Is that or which pretends? As if this collapse of civilization doesn't his possibility doesn't exist. And that's really crap are my alarms. Reluctant play all right. What was that? sentimental and that in its in its we're not talking about that. That's why I wouldn't worry about. Is that a which pretends to have ideals as if the end of the world isn't coming, you know, I mean it has ideals if he's going to go on forever and his ideals are going to exist forever possible. Give me a give me a really good example of a completely disassociated art printed Brice Marden is is distance or dispassionate. I don't think that that's Stella is real, bring up the fact that I made a contribution to bring very shortly and I admire that by saying this is the definition of pocket. But it must be in the world but not the time. Would you consider then? Let me just take an example. Do you think that Bryce Martens work that inherited rise Martin's work is the idea is that the new spoke about that that nothing's going to happen. Everything's going to be okay. I think this is that I don't know very well but we're talking about the work itself not about how the artists all artists or radicals. We all know that but the ejection I'm going to generalize say that kind of work after the moment. All right, all right. Mike Devine I'm really trying to find out what it is. All right. All right. All right. which pertains to Art itself that say the issues of art itself. Is an area of is that her magic? and are you and her medical condition and becomes tends to become so refined in itself being so concerned with its own plastic problems that yes, I think that's 20 years now powerful reactions against that and I insisted the work itself become. Really involve not going to change anything, but you'd only energy from the involvement with the condition of the world. We live in the real world the political world there for that. You have to get out as fast as you can get out of that kind of art which concerns itself with its And this is Paula by the way, this is this is a recent phenomenon. And that's what I meant by my my statement said I said America find he's got the artist deserves. Neither. Let's hide Let's Pretend the world isn't coming to an end. We all live under this cloud and in fact all the greater part of the past. I don't like Dragon the past but to me the pastor's in the pot. Let me see Morelli to be working downtown. I don't know and Michelangelo was involved with changed hair savonarola changes whole life. But when you look at the last judgment is based on reform ISM reform that that that structure in Vatican City, you know, so this is what pushes our hearts always been involved with the world. A lot of misunderstanding has been the cause of criticism that princess bilirubin can write about Jackson Pollock as though Pollux art. We're only concerned with the issues as those Martin surfaces dealt only with the surface, but I think that there that it is a mistake to say that this passion has to do with a style or a form. I think that there are attitudes that one can locate in art of all kinds that are deeply humanistic and deeply concerned and then often we are misled by by spray is criticism into thinking a certain way about a certain kind of work.