What time is 7 good evening and welcome to the special supplement of all things considered for the next half hour will consider the process of initiative and referendum with two guests in our Saint Paul Studios and a bit later. We'll take questions from listeners and here to introduce us to the subject is our Capital correspondence. Really Capital fellow in his own right John. Merli dfl state Senator Bob Benedict of Bloomington, Bloomington mayor introduced a bill in the 1978 legislative session to begin initiative and referendum in Minnesota. The Bell will be reintroduced again in the 1979 session. Senator Benedict was elected to the senate in 1976 state senator, Jack Davies a Minneapolis also at the FL or opposes Center to Benedict's Bill Senator Davies is now serving his 20th year of the Minnesota Senate has Dan said both lawmakers here in our same pole Studios for this live half our examination of the process of initiative and referendum more than 20 States and the District of Columbia now use some form of initiative and referendum there appears to beGoing to bed both here in Minnesota and another state. So we're just how this process a process affects a representative democracy among other things the debate over initiative and referendum raise his philosophical political Legoland. Sometimes even moral questions Center Benedict. Let's begin by asking you about the specifics of your bill, which is some point we'll have to be taken up by the Senate Judiciary Committee which Senator Davies chairs election sign signatures and put them on a on a petition submitted them to the Secretary of State's office a hundred twenty days before the election. They could put an issue on the ballot in the 1974 gubernatorial election. That would be approximately 64000 signatures. That would be required to actually put an item on the Bella. Why do you support this one for me? And I guess basically three reasons number one that the legislature passes a bad Bill or is not dealing with an issue that the people of Minnesota feel we should be dealing.Sure, they would have recourse to be able to do something about it rather than simply waiting for years at the throw a particular gentleman or woman that's holding office out of office 12 to 15. People holding a bill could not bottle it up. And we the people of Minnesota would have some type of recourse even if a committee would choose not to hear it and finally lobbyists wood for the first time on a particular issue have to tell their stories of people Minnesota some 4 million strong rather than simply 200 people at the state legislature who are lawmakers my bases for begins when I was mayor Bloomington and had not been for an issue of referendum that we would not have been able to stop the major highway from desecrating one of our largest parks of Highland Lake Park. Secondly, we would not have had through next to of the opportunity to be able to form a new system of this tracking system. Whereby all parts of our city of representation. The city council is working very well as increase the amount of phone calls and responsiveness to the city councilman and finally and forever as important as anything else if it had not been for referendum, we would not have aSenior Citizen Center and a human resources Center in the city of Bloomington Jack gave his you don't like the idea. Why not? Well, let's just take the experience in Bloomington. I don't know why the city council in the school board could not where I have worked out the senior citizen Project without going to referendum seems to me that it's a good situation where elected people are forced to face the issue and make the decision and that there's no need for that kind of action backstopping with initiative referendum affect. Its very existence to undercut the sense of responsibility in the in the need to be elected people to respond to the petition so that they come to them from the citizens, but I think that it's unrealistic to compare the experience of one Community where you win some and you lose some to the Tasca that Benedict proposes.Educating 4 million people for a million people that's quite an education project much better to have to work on the 18 people. Are they majority of an 18-member committee R15 member committee and sell the marriage to them. It's easier your batting average on actually reaching the merits as much much as Superior to when you're dealing with 4 million people matter of fact the things they don't get bottled up in in small committees in the legislature. But sometimes you have to wait a while. I've I've had a great deal of experience with waiting to get an idea through the legislature but there's not all that bad to wait a while. Is there a trend toward initiative and referendum around the country as far as we can tell 22 say it stays in the District of Columbia now have it not have repealed it yet. Are you bucking the tide so to speak to you or not at all likeThe problem with one of the problems with it is it went you have it? You can't get rid of it. So the 22 states you have they almost all are left over from the first two decades of the century. I don't know what I think Bob has better information than I do. But I think I'll just one or two states have adopted the system since then so are some of the initiatives rather that have been passed another state. That's a good question. One of the things that have been passed basically people saying. Is that in Florida and Montana and five other states there was Sunshine proposals know which open government proposals to open up the committee meetings for the public that passed over the dead bodies of the senators and representatives. Were there public said this is needed we should be doing it and are they did it to a next day when those particular State's mandatory deposit environmental legislation is another big one that's been passing a certain areas, Main and Michigan beings.Examples Arizona, Missouri, we had a chance to talk to the day and they have passed judicial reform and terms of other judges are selected what they do now. Apparently, it's come to the point where it is a yes or no vote a judge runs unopposed instead of running into someone else in an election. He ends up being either approved or not approved and that protect proposal in both States was apparently passed with the support of the Bar Association of the judges Association Maine public interest groups and don't just a few of the kinds of things one other thing about it in terms of responsibility. I'll make one thing very clear under my bill there was nowhere in that bill that would allow the legislature to be able to diminish its role or pass the buck because the legislature cannot put anything on the ballot only the people Minnesota count on to that proposal accept. All they have to do is say we think that's the kind of thing that ought to go to initiative and referendum and start circulating your petitions and you've immediately passed the buck whether it's in the bill or not. I really don'tI think it's appropriate to judge an issue which in essence is one of the first magnitude in terms of political science and political theory on the basis of sort of recounting the specific successes or failures of it, but it's really interesting that you talked about openness and government we got sunshine in government through the legislative process who talk a minute about environmental rights week. So I passed a great deal of environmental legislation and I certainly don't think we should go to a system undercutting our basic approach to our democratic system of representative democracy rather than a sort of Hit and Miss indirect democracy for purposes of a Ab and the can bill at Which ion has matter fact just barely lost in the legislature and I will get it and it also lost on initiative and referendum in Washington state and maybe a couple others but I doI know about the Washington experience. Do you think that well-organized group should be able to foist their initiatives and their opinions on a group of people on the citizenry as a whole these well-organized 64000 people who could get the get the signature is required for an initiative. Or they can certainly put a big burden on the rest of us to respond that you never know. What petitions going to be circulating and when the signatures are there, then you have to address the issue to the fooled for a million people a lot which is a tremendous burden in a tremendous task in Meanwhile. We're addressing that and engaging in goodness knows what's happening on some other front in politics and we just don't have time to wait to those public campaigns and try or try to keep yourself informed on the multitude of issues your face the legislature's well, you know that it's not their legislators possibility to be in educating everybody. It's not as if we know all the answers to all the problems. There are we're talking about four or five main principal issues. That would be a voice back and forth. Next Media system we have in the most educated citizens where there is anywhere in United States and just to say that I know Senator Davies of talking 3 versus practice. I'd like to talk Colorado study of fire represent of Colorado Precinct shield in the 76 elections voters were more aware of the initiatives and they were any other contests except the presidential election think that one of the most important votes people cast is a vote for state legislator and if they are distracted from passing the appropriate judgment on the candidates who are presented to them for state legislator and for Congress and for the local officials the congressman and so on some of the benefit of election I happen to think that the election system is great because we all go through life passing judgment on people who are friends and neighbors and saw it. We all get expert at that. How do you figure out what their persons to be trusted or not? You've been in the senate for 20 years too. So the street who goes to vote on Election Day He is confronted with this personality and that personality and he is an expert in in passing a judgment on which of those people he wants to represent it. He's not an expert on the tax issues on the spending issues on on the criminal law issues. That's not something a fist and the best idea to let the person represent on the issues rather than the issues Force the electric to spend its energy on the issues. You've distracted their attention from what they really should be paying attention to her attention to an election day is who is the best candidate to be elected? I did not say that interest in the politicians went down. It didn't change just said that in person in history of the word were very very high. Second thing is I might agree with a particular Senator or representative on 95% of the issues. I'm going to throw him out of office cuz this trees with me on one you don't that just doesn't make sense. They reason represent democracy started with me cuz Logistics years ago at a travel long distances. They weren't well informed today 200 years later with talking about extremely high degree of media coverage papers newspapers radios. The Simpsons are well-informed and capable of making decisions 3000 bills introduced in the legislative. All right, let's take it one step further on that particular issue. We've heard it said now, both of you have said it that elected officials are in a good position to act because after all it is your job to know about the issues, but I do have the impression that some elected officials will not act because of the consequences that an action could damage their political hopes for the future. For example Now, isn't that a real? Weakness of of the legislative system and wouldn't the initiative process Senator Davies answer that problem part actually the argument turns around the other way while because if it's a kind of issue which has political danger in it for the elected official and he's going to be casting a safe cautious vote and not facing up to the issue. Well, that's nut certainly not going to be the kind of thing that will prevail on a Nintendo when it goes to the electorate another words what you get out of initiative. Are are the are the easy answers not the tough answers. What was much more important to Do turtles have those tough questions faced a little bit in the in the political institution where it's deliberative and in the responsibility spread to some extent 3000 bills up where you have from time to time lawmakers in the House and Senate in st. Paul who aren't all that much up on the bill that they're voting on with great system in the legislature division of labor. Is there a Benedictine I don't serve on any of the same committees when we get up to the floor we happen to sit across the very narrow aisle from one another in a bill comes from one of his committee's and I'll turn over head I'll lean over to him and I'll say bye but what's this about and he can explain it to me a little bit on his experience and occasionally, he pays me the same as you're taking his clothes. Best earlier you mentioned some of the legislation you think is good that the initiative process has brought about what are some of the items around the country in the 22 States and the District of Columbia that have been bad to your way of thinking opposes. Both of you. Well, I think that there's one classic one. That's bad. And that was a fair housing act that was passed in California that basically approve discrimination. And of course what happened what was immediately struck down by the courts and that's what happens on those type of issues along with us, but I think that that, you know in each of these cases the bad ones we is as people are in government tend to be very cross about taxation issues and one would think that immediately that the people go out and vote to cut down taxes and it's not been the case in Ohio that's been 12 cases with the people of Ohio at the chance to reduce taxation only free the 12 times that they do it in California has come up and I just can't let it pass. I think they've been 5 initiated proposals in, California. That have been struck down by the California Supreme Court. Took to have us depend on on judges are to protect our rights is that's fairly. Well, but that's just one eye protection and I'll are rather have that the legislative institution. They're all so serving to protect the Bill of Rights the legislature as a matter fact is very conscious of the Bill of Rights in many bills are for the judgments passed on them. Is this consistent with our basic ideas of freedom and Independence of individuals and so it you're listening to a special supplement to All Things Considered. Our guests are say Center is Jack Davies of Minneapolis and Bob Benedict Ave Bloomington. The subject is the process of initiative and referendum listeners who would like to ask questions can call us at the following numbers in the Twin Cities area. You can call us at 221-1550. That's 221-1550 in Minneapolis-Saint Paul listeners living in Minnesota outside. The Twin Cities area can call us toll-free. At one 800-652-9700 at 806-529-7009 this evening a short and therefore precious. We want to get as many questions as possible. We can do that. If you strip your question of any introductory remarks and just keep it as short as possible. Not a John really about Benedict should civil rights human rights for any particular group no matter how large or small ever be considered on referendum. Probably not. In fact right now. We're trying to work out with the urban Coalition and Amendment or some type of situation that would limit this particular bill and I don't think we should be dealing in that particular area quite frankly Wilson one of the thing we did extensive research analyst and I might have to question Jack in terms of the five times that the court has had to deal in California because we came across one maybe, you know the dates for some additional information on it. But you know of all the times and Oregon alone is at 192 initiative California. I don't have the full figure on there have been literally thousands Nationwide that have passed this man only one. We had a chance to come across as dealt with human rights were said to be struck down by the courts. All right, we've had an outpouring of response to the phone number Center Davies. Do you want to respond to that? I don't have a copy of Sunday's st. Paul Pioneer Press where they are where I read that it was in that the five issues were listed in that the article. All right. We have a question. I was waiting for a senator Davies and Senator Benedict will take the Questionnaire good evening. You're on the air. Yes, sir. You're on the air? Defending your own job as legislator and how you would respond to that charge. Hi, my face electorate every four years and occasionally every two years when we have a reapportionment. I get a vote sent to the legislature and not my job, but I haven't at that point of credential which is to serve as a representative of the people in my district to exercise my best judgments on the various issues. And I tried to do that and over the years. I've discovered it's a very difficult job at the the issues are complicated and I also in some respects responsive to an observation made by Center Benedict a few moments ago, but it's a responsive to your question as well. You said it was not legislators job, but to educate on these issues that the weekend are really leave an initiative referendum Vote or two other people, but I've actually have had as much experience I think in Minnesota is almost anyone else. And referendum because our constitutional amendments are submitted to Electric on referendum in over the years. That's one of the load past I've taken on myself is to educate on amendments and that is really hard work and I are you pay a price, you know in your ability to do your rest the rest of your job and I've waited for other people to pick up that burn on many occasions and they have it for state senator Jack Davies. We have other question. I was waiting good evening your on the air. Don't like the legislature passes or what recourse they have when the legislature ignores an issue that they're concerned about and another question within the same question isn't this against this referendum and safely and elitist argument? check no, I don't think it's latest legislature is not particularly and Nelly distance institution, perhaps so one of your recourses, if you're not getting the kind of service from your legislature that you think you ought to have is to like someone better from your own District. The reality of course is that the legislature does not ignore issues if there is a 8 a strong public support for particular provisioner, very particular policy. If it's the kind of policy that would Prevail if it were submitted to a referendum the legislature will not ignore it. It will be addressed or gray problem at the legislature is getting people to come and then walk into our offices or or send us letters saying this is a problem that I feel will you do something about it and are very often my light and my response when I do get letter like that is You called my attention to that problem. What specific solution do you have in mind? Because that's the great struggle in the legislative institution is to find solutions to problems. They reach thank you Laura next caller, please. If you have your radios, you're listening near your phone's turn the radio down. You will not get any of that feedback some of which we've been hearing your on the air your question, please hello. Hello. Yes, you're on the air will take your questions. I got a question before it's either a representative regarding the technological issues that may come up for rent referendum. I'm concerned that small minority groups using unfounded propaganda techniques tactics could. Stir up the general population to to vote issues that are that can only be a decided upon by Representatives legislators. That would have all the information for the money on certain issue and wondering if you care to comment on the appropriateness of having a type. Okay. Thank you, Senator Benedict while I just like to say again that in extensive research of going through state-by-state those that have passed open government legislation environmental legislation. I better judicial legislation list goes on and on that we have run across, you know, precious few issues or anything like that has ever happened. Secondly. Let me say that I think the people of Minnesota that again or some of the most highly educated in the nation certainly have I think the same abilities as Citizens nose 22 states to pay enough to be able to make the proper decision those kinds of issues and I guess I would just say also that In terms of a small grouping able to go out and affect the total population that Minnesota had the highest voting record 1976 of any place else tonight States of America are people are very well-informed and make some good decisions Saturday. I think the listener makes a good point that there are technological problems of scientific issues that are presented in California couple years ago. They had a vote on a nuclear a nuclear energy in effect. They were asking the entire population of the state of California how to decide whether nuclear energy was safe in the end. Of course, did they not be safe at the moment but they're there could be a discovery next week. That would make it safe. Well who's who's to tell and it's just not the kind of issue that should be presented to the entire electric we have other colors waiting will take the next question. Good evening. You're on the air. I have personally think the initiative and referendum on the Statewide basis is utterly without the socially redeeming character, but about the issue a recall bill. I like the other two guests discussed that and then also the issue of extending initiative if we're going to have to come up against the government of Two Cities, for example, or counties are townships, perhaps if people don't like a sewer project going through for example, that currently is I understand that are state laws is not a portable issue could we not have cities and counties and townships getting involved in home rule cities. They do have initiative referendum at the local level right? Now the mention began the program that was one of the reasons I back it was seeing the tremendous results. We had in Bloomington environmental issues Human Service issues in and also, Representation issues in terms of recall I wouldn't mind having that quite frankly in the bill, but I would like to build a pass and I sincerely doubt the bills going too fast. And if they has a recall on it recall of Ball State officials all state elected officials County officials. Local officials are with the one by one is the way recall works at the prom with recall is that the only way you really get into recall situation is to do something courageous and that seems unfair way to reward somebody in a public office who chooses to step out or speak out in in a in a courageous way on a particular issue. The second part of why we called is not worthwhile is the power of elected officials is pretty grossly over overrated what you have is some power and influence over long. Of time. But if you got somebody who's really bad, their impact is diluted by the other people and you can take care of him at the next election if they deserve to be eliminated was in the city Charter in Bloomington is many home Rule Charter cities and that has never been a problem in stopping people from making courageous moves. All right, we have other callers waiting with other questions good evening. You're on the air. Yes. I have a question Center. Benedict suggested that one of the advantages of the initiative was that lobbyists would have to go before the state population. I wonder if that is an inviting the simplistic media attack Princeton police on St. Paul initiative on human rights that perhaps that blurs the issues and isn't the advantage of the deliberative process that the legislature give to the electorate that these issues got discussed far more carefully than in a very simplistic kind of media campaign. Process of the of the Minnesota state legislature, I like the process a great deal. But let me explain that when we get an Omnibus Bill that is coming through that has everything into it and is lovingly called a garbage bill you end up voting for the entire package you might dislike something in that intensely and then the voting for it because a lot of things you like in there. That's not exactly exactly the kind of thing that lends itself with liver to process many times in a conference committee report comes back. I got a few minutes to look at it. It's been changed since I went over to the house and it's a really screwing anybody has been at the Capitol can see that the only thing is that the issues I point out in Colorado in fantasy and perhaps even in some of the local elections taken place might be different. But in fact in Colorado, there was a long liver to process to take place in those issues in more people knew about the issues a new bought the candidates that are running Any response Center to Davies? Well, I think that the turn Benedict exaggerated said some extent that are blind votes. The number of the garbage pails is 1 per session and then they're not all that many bad items. We do have a rule the world that you need single subject. And so we get nice clean cuts at had most of the issues in the big chore in the legislative process is to take in affect extreme positions that are brought into legislative process in moderate and soften them so that they do whatever you finally turn out is responsive to the problem. But but not damaging to the body politic as a moderator and softener Saturday because you are the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Are you going to receive that you going to take up Center Benedict's pill in January with just depends on how violent the opposition is. And if the opposition is so violent that they really don't want it hurt and he There we decided it or not to be heard within and probably won't take time. But I expect we won't have that strong opposition to attend that. I'll have to hear it whether I like it or not. We have time for one more quick question and we have a caller on the line good evening. You're on the air with employers to give people time off to invite lobbyists to their firms. Would you have special sessions for housewives and shopping centers? You don't like this if it's very interesting on that because so many people fail to really trust the public. They feel are not well informed if not going to make the right choice and it's very disappointing to me because we always feel like I make the right choice in the vote for election, but never on a particular issue and yet the results makes these states point out that there has been a great limited processing in Colorado. In fact, they knew more about the issues they knew about the people running Center Davies. I've been in public office in my 20th year now and I have only felt truly frustrated in one situation and that was in 1964 when we were working on the taconite amendment and with a $2,700 campaign. I was fighting a two-million-dollar campaign and I felt that my side of that issue was not being heard which I think is what the listener was concerned about. Thank you both been listening to a live half hour or supplement to All Things Considered tonight and examination of the process of initiative and referendum and how old am I Check Minnesota Government and citizens are Studio guests have been state. Senator, Jack Davies of Minneapolis chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He opposes initiative and referendum and state Senator. Bob Benedict of Bloomington who is sponsoring and initiative and referendum bill in the 1979 legislative session the technical director for the broadcast was Paul Kelly with assistance from Pat Kessler and with John merli, this is Dan Olson. Thank you for joining us some good evening.