On this regional public affairs program, guests Ray Arveson, superintendent of Schools for Minneapolis; and W. Harry Davis, Minneapolis school board member, examine the school district's desegregation plan. Topics include compliance of Judge Larson order, magnet programs, and interests of minority groups.
Arveson and Davis also answer listener questions.
Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.
Good morning. The time is exactly 10 a.m. Neil Saint Anthony speaking from our Saint Paul studio in the Twin Cities at this hour under Cloudy Skies. The temperature is 30° Fahrenheit. 1 below. Celsius winds are south of 25 miles per hour gusting 235. Look at the Twin Cities metropolitan area forecast windy and warm would decreasing Claudine Essence sunshine today. Mostly clear tonight sunny and Mild Sunday southerly winds at 15 to 30 miles an hour by late morning be coming West to northwesterly and diminishing early tonight highs today and Sunday in the upper 30s and lower 40s lowest tonight in the middle twenties.cloudy skies at this hour this morning on our public affairs hour. We look at some of the pressing issues facing the Minneapolis Public School System a federal judge supervising the racial balance in Minneapolis schools as ordered that by next fall minority attendance in anyone's School may not exceed 42% the administration maintains that the goal is unattainable District projection show total minority enrollment in elementary schools will exceed 40% by 1982 currently at total minority enrollment in the public school system is about 26% The administration says higher minority concentration in some schools is unavoidable. At several recent school board hearings there has been vocal opposition to further busing to achieve racial balance parents complain often that they don't know where their children will attend class next fall in Edition leaders in the Indian Community have presented compelling Arguments for educating their children together. They wish to encourage and Foster traditional Indian culture. Well our guest today are dr. Raymond arvesen the superintendent of Minneapolis public schools in mr. Heavy Harry Davis a member of the school board. Unfortunately doctor arvesen has not yet arrived. He agreed to come on the program and confirmed his participation late this week. We hope that he will be with us momentarily. For now, I'm going to take up some of these issue issues with mr. Davis and later in the program. You may phone in your questions to mr. Davis and hopefully to dr. Harvison. First I'd like to go directly to the issue of the federal court order. Mr. Davis specifically judge Larson's order would permit no more than 35% enrollment of a single minority nor more than 42% of all minorities in any one school. The board has authorized to plans to be submitted to the court on Thursday one complies essentially to the letter with the judge's order. The other is dubbed the preferred plan or the superintendent's plan and exceeds judge Larson ceilings get the can you spell out the preferred plan for me or first of all, I think you should understand what the court order says. The court order in which was decreed by judge Larson back in 1972 stated that the Minneapolis School Board. Was found guilty of New Jersey segregation, which is in violation the Fourteenth Amendment that meant they were number of schools in our system and that we're could be identified as racial schools either black white Indian and so far no Larson said to us at that time is that you are the Educators. I am, of course the majority of the federal court the Mandate for the segregation integration is coming down from this court to you and I'm asking you to come up with a plan. That you will submit to me for my approval. for that process he then stated that we you should report to me quarterly. With any modifications or change in plan and then I will determine whether you're in compliance. Now that explains the procedure. I think where the misunderstanding comes is that people believe a judge Larson is mandating certain issues that are relevant to the desegregation of schools. Did Larson's not doing that just Larson is allowing us to do that the 3542 plan as it stands right now. Would you let his plan is our plan your plan. It's our plan that was approved by judge Larson over a year ago. Now in the process of implementing that plan we found that housing patterns in the City of Minneapolis did not change and that there were still large majority not large pockets of minority concentration around certain schools and those schools at the present time where there are problems are bassoon and Hall School in North Minneapolis Anderson and Wilder School in South Minneapolis. Now, if you're familiar with the Minneapolis School District, you know that we've divided our district into three areas and we've done that for a number of different reasons, but one of the reasons is that they would not be bussing or transporting of children throughout the district that they would be transported within a certain section of that District. I will staff those districts are those areas with a superintendent and staff to work with the community of self the parents the students and other interested parties to not only desegregate that part of the city. But to implement alternative programs that would fit into the basic needs of the children in that area and that is in conjunction with the parents the parents choose the type of educational program their child should go into the only requirement that the school board has is that each plan be racially balanced that's so there's a lot of freedom of choice. That doesn't mean that there are mandated. Boxing programs in all of the transporting programs are not are not determined by the school board saying that you must do this. Okay, then in order to to apply these programs in the different educational choices, we either paired schools or clustered schools and offered in the pairing of clustering the options the choice of parents at 6 accepting. The conventional kind of education to continuous progress the open the free and of course lately the fundamental. And we found that it worked quite well and that throughout the city in many areas that those choices were selected and that racial balance was being accomplished. I'll give you one example of that the West area which is in the western part of Minneapolis is in compliance. There is no school that has over 35% of nu1 manure tea on or 42% more than one minardi. So there in total compliance in there in that area. There is pretty close to 20,000 students. So that means that almost one-third or over one-third of our school district is in compliance and much of that is done on a voluntary basis. We also have Rachel transfers. We have magnet schools magnet programs that draw children in for certain parts of the day or four full days. The Anderson School itself created a problem because of high concentration of Native American students Anderson School elementary level and Phillips School in the junior high school level. We do not have basic problem at the senior high school. All right, then now and I'll report their last report to judge Larson There's A Larson said that I'd like to know why you're thirty-five 42% plan is not working on any 26% of your student population is open or tea. It seems to me that there should be a way that you could come into compliance. And I would like to have you submit a plan to me that to show that 3542 can be coming to compliant. If not an alternative plan that I can study and can make a judgment on so that's the process we've gone through the last month or so. Now in in the process of hearing the plan for 4:30 3542 by each area superintendent. The superintendent came in with what would he called his preferred play which would allow for a variance of 50/50. 50% of any minority now in the meantime the Native American population of our city brought legal interpretations to the board that they are a preferred that they are they can be Exempted or should be Exempted from the desegregation plan that they're not a minority and that the education of their children is that they the education of their children can best be done by keeping them together in large numbers. Okay, we do have a federally funded program that allows us to do that in many schools. It's a it's a title for a program where we we cluster large numbers of Native American students. We have about 50 52 of our schools that have title for programs. Now the question is whether we as a board a local government because that's what we are can can justify or can do this to head the jurisdiction to do that or the court has to rule on that. That is a question. So in the meantime, we still have to go ahead and tend to comply with a court order and that's what we're attempting to do. So well, dr. Iverson the saying is that within the 35 42 he is coming up with a preferred plan that will say that we're recommending to the court that we be allowed to have a racial balance of 50/50 which would allow large clusters of Native American students to still be maintained in certain schools. He's also saying that within doing that that we can then. I lost some other variances as an example some of the schools that are voluntarily desegregated are asking for plans to include real estate operators in others to help pull people in their community. So their schools can be neighborhood schools and be integrated schools. That's part of the plan to allow some of the neighborhoods that have demonstrated. They are tempting to do that and show some results to do that. The other is just to have some more volunteer what we call programmatic clustering and programmatic pairing so that the choice is can still be there for those schools that have never been at this point that involved in the desegregation plan and we have a number of those schools in Northeast Minneapolis in Southeast Minneapolis. Not in the Southeast alternative area, but the southern part of Minneapolis which would include how many haha Cooper Wynonna and those schools Longfellow. They are now being brought into the desegregation plan. So that's that basically is dr. Ira Simmons up preferred plan. How many schools right now are out of compliance with the 35 42 ratios? If I'm if I'm correct, there's about 15 schools and they're divided primarily amongst the the north area in the East area. But most of them are right on The Fringe some programmatic pairing or some voluntary selection of Alternatives can be can bring those schools back into compliance. The four primary schools are out of compliance are Wilder Anderson how no Hall and Bethune. Now, you mentioned that neighborhoods have come up with some voluntary plans that they would like to implement. There's one in particular that Northeast Minneapolis Community volunteer to the board at a meeting two weeks ago and I believe you accepted it and they're going to bring it to the judge. Can you explain how that program works what the situation is in that neighborhood lachy that's called. Pillsbury plant and that plan is is over a year old that plan that they the members of the PTA of Pillsbury and members of the Pillsbury community of Pillsbury School Community came to the school board over a year ago with a plan that they would like to have to try voluntarily to see if they can integrate their neighborhood. It include it included a programmatic pairing with Bethune school and Bethune school have what they call a talented youth program and they had a modified contemporary which included some continuous progress. They had met with some of the parents in the Boone area to see if their children would be willing to come to Pillsbury school. Just waiting their program. They in turn got parents in their neighborhood to take a look at The Talented youth program it to transfer their students are so that was a two-way voluntary busing program on top of that they met with the area superintendent and myself and explain the plan to us and then called in a number of the real estate dealers that were servicing homes or selling homes or renting homes and so forth in that neighborhood, they sat down with them and ask them if they wouldn't make a special effort to get with many the companies that were who they are affirmative action programs are recruiting when already people And encouraged him to move to Minneapolis and when doing so to show homes in that area to those people. It has worked not to an alarming extent but it has worked. They have have they have about four or five families of the move in the area. They have 16 students that have made the transfer back and forth and are now being transferred to transport it on on a volunteer program and they've extended their program from Pillsbury area to Lori and Tinley Park which takes in quite a section of Northeast, Minneapolis. They demonstrated in over a year's time that some of that was on their better judgment and they were sincere about it and they were making an extended effort to to work this voluntary program out and I presented the program to the board and ask them to consider it. Of course in the consideration. We were talking about a time limit and with a back-up plan to say that if it doesn't take shape by the end of this. Of time, then we would refer back into the original plan. So it is it is working. Up to this point. We hope that it's going to work better with more time. The people that are working at a very intense some of them in already parents that are there that I working with them their children are going to Pillsbury another schools. So it seems to be a logical way of attempting to do something on a voluntary basis. Would you agree then that part of the problem or possibly reaching compliance or a solution is to start to mix up some of the housing plans that housing maybe the root of the issue here. I think superintendent Harbison is said that in a couple of occasions. Well, you know that when people move to a city they look for a number of things transportation and one of the most important things at the school's what kind of school is in the neighborhood what is reputation of that school can it provide the kind of quality education the students and their children need so school is very important part of a city. Unfortunately even with open housing and with all the laws and rules and regulations. We do not have integrated housing patterns. Now that can come about by two or three different reasons number one of the federal housing that's in those communities are not integrated. And so therefore that that's the fault of some of the Housing Authority which means a local Housing Authority in the federal Housing Authority. The other part is that some of the minority's that live in the city cannot afford to move in some communities, but if we look at the projections and the increase in population Protect me in Minneapolis that shows a large increase in the Box black community of people that are moving in that are at the middle and upper and middle income level. So those homes in Waite Park in Pillsbury in those areas would not be a problem. So the next thing we have to do is to terms of convincing the real estate people that the neighborhood isn't is sincere in attempting to induce or to encouragement or two people to move in that community. So that that does say the housing the people that are have the ability to make the changes in housing patterns can do it if they are from a flea do so, we two years ago the Minneapolis school system was going to have school board. When did Judge Larson and named and ask him to name? HUD NHRA Indeed segregation plan. He accepted that. So at the present time they are part of the of the defense in the overall litigation with the class action suit and there goes back to the 972 light. That was brought against that's correct School District, right? Going back now on Thursday the plan goes to judge Larson that's been postponed. It has been postponed. We will not bring the plan to judge Larson until the 30th until the 30th of July and how many children are our bus to school currently to achieve desegregation and all the bus in goes on within the district that you mentioned. So we don't have Crosstown bus at correct for desegregation purposes only and I can be wrong and I have lunch at the Wynn. Dr. Iverson gets here. You may have the figures there's about 12,000 about 12,000 right out of the overall order. That's about the well, let's see their it right at the present time. We have just below or let's say we have round thing is a 50,000 students Elementary and secondary license for other programmatic programs. There's about 22,000 students that are that are transported for overall. That means that we have a school policy that says Eleni Elementary child that lives beyond seven tenths of a mile can receive a bus ride to school any secondary student that lives beyond to my can be transported by bus. So there's a large percentage of those children that are bust so that's included in the 20. Mm. And then of course you talk about the other transport and students for programmatic for voluntary programmatic changes, and that would also be included in the 20. Mm. All right by the fall of 1978 judge Larson says that the district must meet the 3542 guidelines those the strict guidelines and will not permit the variance of the plan that superintendent Harbison has offered how many additional students would that mean must be bus will be a great percentage. It will be a fairly good amount of students. I can't give you the exact figures because that includes the closing of schools that would include the closing out Pillsbury Lori, which means that the number of students are about 1,800 students fair in that area. You're talkin about the closing of how School in South Minneapolis Minnehaha another 12 students. So you you may you may be talkin about the additional transporting and maybe between 4 and 5000 students. The time is 10:21. This morning is Harry Davis of the Minneapolis school board. We're hoping against hope that superintendent Raymond Harbison arrives so he can answer some of your questions. If you do have a question. However for mr. Davis at this time about school desegregation or other issues facing the Minneapolis Public School District phone us at 2 to 11550. That number in the Twin Cities once again is 2 to 11550. Mr. Davis, do you have any reservations about doctor Iverson's plan? And there was it I think of a record-setting meeting when it was introduced two weeks ago to the board record-setting meeting in length, and there was a lot of discussion and a Time controversy to put it put in my leg. Did you voice any disapproval than a do you have any reservations now? Well, I am I think the plan can work. I think my own opinion. I think judge Larson will either accept the plan or a modification of the plan. Adjust Larsen's never kept us to any particular programming and it has been very helpful in modifying are playing accepting modifications. My only reservation that I would have is that the there are number of schools in the City of Minneapolis that they have not participated in the overall desegregation planning and some of that allows some flexibility which in some cases. I agree to I want to see the intent is there but I think that there are other schools at them. electric participate in the in the desegregation plan one one other option we have is that The final middle school program has attracted a lot of students. In fact, we establish two fundamental schools last year at Barton and Cleveland Cleveland bar in South Minneapolis and Cleveland North Minneapolis. And they now have waiting list of over 200 students. Oh, you're talkin about maybe Barton School with 600. Another 200 is 800 and you talk about Cleveland with your little larger population and we'll talk about opening up a larger fundamental schools, which will be centralized in those two areas and what attract students from all over the area. This will help tremendously in drawing off of the compulsory transporting system to the voluntary transporting system. And when we discuss the fundamental schools were talking about schools wear Basics are stressed to the exception of some of the other programs that some people view is Superfluous are extraneous to a Reading Writing and rithmetic So using some of these programs as a lure actually to a gym, that's one thing. I want to make very clear because although there is a kind of stereotyping of the different options all of the options all of the Alternatives require. The knowledge of the basics that the basics are primary they are our top priority in any of the educational programs. We offer the fundamental program in comparison with A continuous progress in the open school stresses more of the contained classroom with grading with homework with things of that sort more than the open school what the continuous progress in the open school talk about Hands-On situation after the classroom learning process has been accomplished so that you're talkin about going out letting children see Industry business people working looking at it having an opportunity to do some of that themselves being creative in art and music and drama including some of those voluntary programs that add to the incentive of a Child Learning, you know, you have to create some interest in some children so they will learn and that's what the alternative programs are attempting to do. At least that's what we're attempting to do and after 5 years of experimentation in our Southeast program. We've been extended it just required and in my opinion it's working very well, but we do stress in our top priority with any educational program by the basic skills that we have a collar standing by so I'm going to ask mr. Davis to put on his headphone equipment there so I can hear the question and welcome you to our program. Good morning. Do you have a question for mr. Davis? What is the underlying purpose of desegregation and transportation of children is a quality education that is if it is quality education why I cannot that must be because some schools have better teachers that being the case why can't these better teachers be transported in stead of the children also? What justification is there for involving our children in a social issue? Which for the first time involves children? When hear the four-wheel always protected them from this sort of thing. All right. Thank you for the question. Well, the first part of your question, the quality of education is the main issue or the main priority of the Minneapolis school system and complying with a court order which said that we were in violation of the 14th amendment that we could not have segregated schools that we then had to provide quality education and desegregated integrate our school systems at the same time. So therefore it doesn't say that any segregated school system is not a quality, but in trying to comply with a court order, we have to provide quality as well as integration it so that's what we're attempting to do. Just the second part of your question is using the children for social issue. The children today will be the adults tomorrow. And therefore they will be able to say that we will provide equal opportunity of educational opportunities in Florida opportunities and opportunities for all people and they will understand that and they will not allow for a violation of a constitutional right of any person. So there was other issues. Yes. The school is taking on the social issues and it should be the responsibility not only of the school system for the Housing Authority the mayor of the city council the governor the the legislature and the Congress, but right at the present time, the main focus is on the school system and we are Does Educators feel that that's not fair but we are trying attempting to fulfill our obligations to the court and to the student to revive them quality integrated education. And we're trying to do that and still maintaining their knowledge of the basic skills so that when they get out of school that they can adjust in society to raise their family and earn a living as well as anyone else and that's that's what we're attempting to do. Alright, thank you for that question. The time is 29 minutes after 10. I see that we have another caller standing by. Good morning. Do you have a question for Harry Davis of the school board? Yes, I do. I'm reasonably optimistic that the Longer-term solution can be through in a great neighborhoods in particular after the land use planning Act of the legislature passed 1976. But if that's the theory that the integration plan has to be couched in longer-term that is a five-year plan and it probably has to include adjacent districts as well as the Minneapolis school district. And if so, it would seem it would be possible to commit to a 3542 plan and also achieve reasonable stability for the children that are being placed in in the various school. So I would like to hear some comments on on those points. I believe that yes, we must we must admit and we must get down to the issues of providing A Five-Year Plan and we are doing that yet the housing patterns and the development of communities are basically a Schedule for the schools to remain integrated. We in the future if the enrollment continues to decline and the minority enrollment continues to increase must include other parts of our communities in Suburban areas are some adjoining suburban school district, but right at the present time, you see we have the school district have no jurisdiction over that and that has to be determined by a jurisdiction. That's hired Nars. I would like to see us maintain neighborhood schools and at the neighborhood stem cells provide the children through an integrated effort, but that's going to call for a joint effort of more parts of government than just a school district in the City of Minneapolis. We have Offered the city council the mayor the park board the library board and the housing authorities opportunities to meet as a joint legislative body a local legislative body to talk about legislative issues to talk about problems of each government body and to try to find out ways of relating and helping and assisting each other. We do have now before the legislation session started in January. We did meet those five bodies met and came up with a legislative proposal to the legislature for this session for the next session. We did meet with the Minneapolis delegation in the Hennepin County delegation to talk over the plans for implementation of legislation. That would help us not only with the economic development in the maintenance of the of the city itself, but the help and support of the school district as well as is the other parts of government. I think it's excellent that do we have that we requested them the plans of the Jason School District as well. We made a voluntary effort to Golden Valley. I think you remember that about a year or so ago when Golden Valley was having financial problems. We met them and I was one of the school board members have met with some members of The Golden Valley School Board superintendent met and talked with theirs and we thought that we had some very similar programs to Golden Valley their middle school and in our attempt to move into middle schools, where are very similar and of course, you know, they're actually died very adjacent to us. It's so where they just like part of the city, but unfortunately, they're bored meth and did not approve the approach. We had taken them and offered them to go into to arrangement with the Robbinsdale and Crystal. They're born are bored. They're bored. I'm bored would have would have approved the adventure. Thank you very very much for your question. Let's move on to another color. Now. The time is almost well. No, it's not. It's 27 minutes before 11. I was going to say it's 25 211. Good morning. Do you have a question for mr. Davis program that you talked about the is primary limited to the elementary school's right now is any thoughts and given to providing an option to the at the junior high and Senior High Level? Yes. Yes. In fact of the matter. Is that the if we convert the click the Cleveland School in North Minneapolis to Jordan Junior High School, it would be a K through 8 and so they would gradually increase to move in to the 9th 10th and 11th and 12th grade. How about in South Minneapolis area at Barton School? There is a great demand for it. And we we hope that we're going to be able to change it to the same thing to K through 8 and then gradually move it into now. Until 11 as the children graduate and move along. Thank you for the call. Let's pause to give out our number one more time. Should you have a question for mr. Davis? And we're still hoping that dr. Iverson will arrive shortly. The number is 221-1550 and we're discussing School desegregation in Minneapolis. And any other issue that you are concerned about now facing the district. Mr. Davis. We touched on the situation in the Indian Community at the Anderson School complex where they have several programs. First of all, they are technically out of compliance with the 3542 plan and leaders in that Community contend that they want to Foster and courage the engine Indian traditions and culture in the education process. Could you elaborate a little bit on the situation there and and what their proposal is and and are you sympathetic to it? They have a very good title for program at Anderson School. This is title 4 of a federal act at work tonight, right Indian Education Act. And the that does you no go along with the maintenance of the teachers advisor AIDS and to continue the the Indian education and the culture we have is I said we have other schools at way too. But this this program at Anderson is an excellent program and it showing some some very concrete results. Unfortunately, the of the increase in the Indian enrollment has gone beef be on 35 and the overall the overall attendance what percentages of attendance both of more than one by Nora tea is up around 54% No, Anderson School is a 3 School in one that has the the conventional educational program to continue with progress and modified open, which is we call the baby and see now those three areas are well supported by Indian students there. Well supported by other students that voluntarily come into that area. Also it isn't supposed to leave you the school is not at capacity and that we can move other students in to bring it into clothes closely into compliance, but are concerned there is that it will soon because of the great in increase of Native American students is that it will be, it will get out of compliance and we cannot continue to do that. We have one of our plans is to probably Allow some of that to spill over into Jefferson, which is not too far away, but it's in another area. It's in the west area. Maybe we shouldn't even our program. Excuse me. Maybe we should point out exactly where the Anderson complex is and what area of the city it's in. It's right around right off of the downtown area in the in the area of the Northwestern Hospital on 26th and 13th or 14th Avenue and Jefferson Junior High is a couple of miles west of Andre Jefferson Jr. High will be over on East Hennepin right off of Franklin in terms of distance. That's not too far in terms of student population. There are some of the Native American population goes over very close to Jefferson and that there wouldn't be a lot of Transportation involved in terms of Shifting some of those students of Jefferson and of course shifting some students that are farther east of Anderson. students in to Anderson to bring it off the balance but are concerned there and what one of the resolution that we passed in terms of a preferred program for the Native Americans is that we would low concentrations heavier concentrations that any school that was 15% Native Americans would be have a varying to 5% and any student and nem program is with 35% would allow the variance of 10% So there would be some variance that would allow the kind of title for program to continue. All right, very good. We should welcome. Dr. Raymond Harbison superintendent of Minneapolis schools who has arrived in their Studio at this time, and I'm going to give out our number one more time. We had a couple of callers who dropped off during that last exchange and it's 2 to 11550. Dr. Iverson earlier. I'm mr. Davis eloquently spelled out what's come to be known as the preferred plan that you're offering under the 3542 minority percentage plan is going to judge Larson. I understand now on March 30th, that's true at the court date is set for March 30th at which time you'll hear it. Maybe we could have you go back to your preferred plan and and run over to little bit and explain why you think that we need some of these variances? Well, I'm as you indicated director Davis has outlined the preferred plans. I could just indicate the rationale for recommending these kind of plan when Minneapolis first began considering the desegregated of their schools and looked at the percentages of minority population. They were in the neighborhood of 11 and 12% And by the time the first court order was issued. They had risen to 17% The demographics of the City of Minneapolis have continued to change over the years. Not that we've had such a great increase in the total numbers of minority students in our schools. But we've had a decreasing population over all the declining population has taken our student population from the 70,000 level down under 50000 in a period of about 10 or 11 years and it's going to continue to decrease so this year we really did a study on what our enrollment was going to be like in the coming years because this we said was a year of planning and decision-making regarding what are School District should look like in another five years. So we've been about five-year planning. And a part of that was to look at the projection of in rolemance for minority students and none minority's students as well as our total enrollment and we could see that we were going to move to the point where we had between 35 and 40% minority population within a matter of for five years guideline such as had been set in 1972 and then revised in 1975 no longer seemed applicable. And in fact, we have term them being unrealistic and we think they are it would almost be impossible to to balance a district with a minority population that was between 35 and 40% at a guideline that said you should can't exceed 42% That would just be on real estate. so I think now that it is realistic to ask for a modification of the percentage guidelines and we've chosen to call this a 50 50% Equity plan because we think when a school is balanced with an equal number of minority and majority students that that really is a balanced Planet sup test is a challenge to really iterate that's cool then and in terms of what's happened in Minneapolis, we now think that that's sound the other part that our Board of Education I think wisely so had asked us to do and that was to try to come up with a plan that would have stability over. Years so that we didn't have to be think they're thinking about changing students from one of your the next I think parents want to know where their students are going to be going to school in future years so that we were very anxious to do that and I think with our preferred plan now we can say That it has more than reasonable stability for a period of four or five years. All right, we have a call or standing by good morning. Do you have a question for superintendent Harbison or mr. Davis of the school board? Yes, sir. I do believe that all it's difficult enough to get off my parents to go to PTA meetings and so forth and just a question what is going on with her children's education without spending all this money. I went by Washburn High School and I counted fifteen buses waiting for all these students to be transported either and bitter. Is it a matter of time? I've also observed. I'm 54 years old. I'm also observed even bank for kids who can't add or subtract or anything is he? Is the whole thing a matter of mixing so-called native. I'm a Native American of two generations and Native Americans and gross and off of Caucasian skin. Some people call them black. I prefer to call them call Negroes, but I do not see any percentage in wasting all this song it cost an enormous amount of money for boxes for one thing. I get to get about four miles to the gallon. Let's see if we can't sift out a couple of questions from that comment. First of all, I don't think that anyone would argue that busing students of course cost money and the district is caught in a situation where enrollment is declining and you actually have less Revenue come in. Coming in rather to pay for programs including busing what what sort of costs are being incurred superintendent Orbison. Well, of course the kind of cost that are being confer are now involved we have calculated by I would guess we're spending in the neighborhood of two to three million dollars a year on Transportation right now that might be involved in transportation for immigration purposes. We've estimated that under a preferred plan of that that we're going to have some increase in and transportation but not a great deal under the plans that we would have to use under a thirty-five 42% plan. We would we would definitely add more bison cost certainly an excess of a million dollars more in transportation costs, but I think there's another dimension to that to you our policy is I stated before that any child Preschool child primarily those in the lower grades that live beyond seven tenths of a mile can't be can be transported. So there are a lot of students transport of that way any secondary student that lives beyond two miles can be transported and that would make any difference if they were going to their neighborhood school or if they were going is to school for the segregation or integration that that would be included in the transportation costs. The other point is is that every school district in the United States role of urban transport students and what we're trying to say that if we transport a child the necessary thing, is that what they obtained at the end of the line. It's got to be a quality. . Of course, one of the things that we've done with transportation is we've provided a broad range of alternatives are options for parents so that they've had an opportunity to select the school and the option that they wanted what I think we ought to mention in and we started with our declining enrollment is it one of the things this has caused us to do is to close some school buildings that immediately place is a greater Geographic distance between some students and their clothes to school and as director Davis's while said that means that we're going to have to transport tomorrow more students. I think the Minneapolis District perhaps it has been more careful and use of its Transportation than almost any other district. There are some districts who transport students from a shorter distance home to school. Then the Minneapolis District does earlier. Mr. Davis mention that there isn't any Crosstown busing that the city is divided up. Into sub-districts if you're well, I'm not sure what the exact terminology areas areas. All right, we have another call or standing by good morning. You have a question for one of our guess. We are concerned about the meeting requirements, but I'm concerned about the quality of Education as well. I just picking picking one out of the below average the average or above-average the city average of 23% and 17% talking about how is it 27% above average Cooper 19, Hiawatha 32, but it Anderson SC school. We have 21% above average Anderson V. We have said that about the average and Anderson a we have 8% above average. What about the quality of Education? Course, the quality of education is of utmost importance to us sounded as if you were reading from the publication that we have called profiles of performance and where we do list the test results on a school by school basis throughout the district. They won the most recent one of courses reports the testing results from the fall of 1977. We are from 1976 Army. We just been looking at the results and they are not published for the fall of 1977. That would be this current school year the 7778 school year and we're finding that we have quite a dramatic increase in test scores over and above what we had the previous year. We think we do have quality education. But whenever I say that I always stop to point out that doesn't mean that every child is doing as well as every other time. Call in the language arts or in mathematics or in any other academic or basic skills type, of course, we're always going to have some students who have a different styles of learning who have learning problems that we have to work with. And so we're going to have different kinds of result. But our overall average in the Minneapolis schools on our test scores ranked in the top 10% of major cities in the country. And I have. I think that spells out quality education after-school. Are there before school activities at school? He had floor hockey music programs extended day program things that the kids are able to take advantage of Now that would not be able to take advantage of this in the case of buffing while we've always had an activity bus for students who want to participate in activities and I'm not sure that all students Avail themselves of that and some parents. Of course, they're particularly with younger children know where they are on buses want them to come home right after school, but there are activity programs and there are activity buses to take children home after those events are over. Okay. Thank you for your question time is 10 minutes before 11 a.m. I want to give out our telephone number one more time. It's 2 to 11550 Gessner Dr. Raymond Harbison superintendent of Minneapolis schools and director Harry Davis of the school board to to 11550. Jackie Robinson, is there any evidence set? Parents dissatisfied over the uncertainty of what will happen in their neighborhood next fall at their children be going to the school that are considering. Moving to private schools. Is there a jump in a private school attendance and that can cannot be related to this situation? Certainly, we had in the hearing till we've had we've had some expressions of that kind. They were Expressions that people not wanting to have their children bust too. Great a distance. There were expressions of uncertainty of saying that they wanted to know where their children were going to go to school and how long they were going to be in that school and I have we had some people reporting that that if their particular School were changed and grade structure or students were bused from that school that some of them would be looking to to go to non-public schools or to move outside of the district. I think that's been something that has been heard any time you talk about that busing transportation routes and so on in almost any circumstance, so one has to weigh that then then look at From what has happened afterwards and our experience has been that there has not been a really great change on that in previous situations. Mr. Davis. I think I'm sure that there's there's always an exchange or an option to go to a private school or program school. But if you look at our district, our district is declining enrollment. If you look at the Suburban areas that immediately touch Minneapolis most of those school districts are declining faster than we are. So they're there can't be a great movement to any of the Suburban areas coming from Minneapolis or their enrollment would stabilize Bloomington is closing schools St. Louis Park Edina all the way from going around to Golden Valley and Brooklyn Center. So I would say yes, I hope there is probably some movement. I think people make that choice and they're there should be a choice for private or public schools, but overall, I think that we can provide and Are attempting to provide and we'll do our performance performance programs or a profile program continue to keep the people that the public informed of how well we are doing I were doing that for a number of reasons. I don't need to keep the public Intuit informed but to compare from year to year if I programs are successful. All right. We have a caller standing by. Good morning. You have a question for one of our gas. Did the biking is done to a sure some of these kids in the inner city area getting what they call a quality education. I have wondered if maybe a lot of the busing money couldn't be spent couldn't be poured into the inner city school giving knows very teachers who should be there very high quality a higher salary and keep them in the inner city school. It would assure the kids of a quality education. All right. Thank you very much. Well, I think this is been an argument that's been Advanced under the banner of separate but equal for an awful long time and we know that that has never been the case and we know that we can have quality education in any school. That's true. But we think in Minneapolis. Our philosophy is firmly rooted on the fact that quality integrated education is what we want and that that is the sound is kind of education. It's it's our responsibility to provide every school in our district with competent dedicated teachers and staff with materials and Facilities equal in every school. We did in the earlier part of our integration program offer opportunities for balance of teachers with higher educational degrees with length of service and mix them up. We we openly offered the teachers to move into Intercity schools and that has been done in our profiler performance. You will see that the inner-city schools are continually improving in terms of their test scores. So they're there is a degree or there is emphasis put on every school and of course the inner-city schools as well as any school has to be education have to be a quality is that the acid test if you will the performance testing results Why I think that's one of the chief criteria, but it is certainly isn't the only thing I think the evaluation of our own staff members is equally valid are teachers in our principles indicating the level of performance of their students. Dr. Iverson in the brief amount of time that we have left. We talked about to climb enrollments. I was touched on it a number of times maybe we should probably have done this early but explain how the public school system is funding in is funded it is on a perfume purple bases. And is that why you're getting less money in the need for a budget cutbacks in the sort of thing that we read about? Yes, sir, Minneapolis, Minnesota funds its educational programs on the basis of pupil units, which means the number of pupils. So when the number of pupils declines that means that there are there's a lesser amount of foundation payment if if we're getting $1,000 per student and we lose 3000 students at $3000000 that we have to surprise. What's the outlook for Teacher cutbacks the spring are many teachers going to be getting pink slips. We are going to decline on our projections about 3,000 students and unless attrition, which is the normal retirement of the number of people who would leave a system unless that takes care of our lost. We will have to notify some people and contrary to what it's been other years where we have notified only probationary this year for the first time we're going to have to do like some of our suburbian neighbors and going to the ranks of tenured teachers primarily at the secondary school level. We're going to have to notify I suspect somewhere in the neighborhood of 78 to 80 tenured teachers this year at the secondary school level that they may not have a position. Will this be the first year that you have had to cut teachers and not been able to reach your cut that go through attrition. It's the first year that we will ever have notified tenured teachers in recent history last year and the year before we did notify probationary people and then ended up re-employ all of them as we had sufficient attrition. We don't know whether that attrition is going to come this year. But as I say, this is the first time that we've ever notified tenured persons any help from this session of the legislature Well, I meant I was there yesterday as a conference committee was meeting and they're going to be meeting next week. We're sincerely hoping so the house version of the Bill of the education bill this year would give us some badly needed assistance not enough, but we would certainly welcome in and we're certainly hoping that that point of you will prevail as they make their final deliberations passed education Bill. What are the differences between the two measures? Well that one of the Prime features that we've been talking about declining rolling with one of the Prime features in the house bill is a another factor for declining enrollment. It has been a three-year factor and they in the house bill raised it to three and a half years that is not in the Senate Bill. We would like to see that declining enrollment Factory. We had hoped it would be not three and a half but four years averaging for declining enrollment which would make a quite a difference but it is being carried at three and a half and we hope that can Prevail there's some other pieces in there that relate to special education and the funding of some other programs. All right, very good. Thank you very much to Our Guest was Terry Davis at the school board and school. Superintendent Ray Orbison the Minneapolis School District. Thank you both for being here very very much and to our listeners. Thank you for listening this morning and a brief. Look at temperatures shows that at 10 a.m. It was 30 degrees Fahrenheit wind South at 25 gusting to 35 miles per hour and won't you stay tuned for options and education next on these listener-supported stations of Minnesota Public Radio.