On this regional public affairs program, St. Paul attorney Medora Perlman and Calvin Clark of the Citizens League look at a recent report by the Citizens League for better use of parking facilities to encourage greater patronage of downtown areas, less suburban sprawl, and a warning against public operation of parking ramps. Perlman and Clark answer listener questions.
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Good morning. The time is 10 a.m. This is Neil Saint Anthony speaking from Saint Paul at this hours at this hour of the Twin Cities. Temperature is 36 degrees Fahrenheit to degrees. Celsius winds are from the Northwest at 8 miles per hour skies are cloudy. This morning on the public affairs. Our we examine our recent report on parking by the citizens League a local public affairs research group a 23-member league committee spent eight months studying the evolution of parking facilities at local parking patterns in the Twin Cities metropolitan area to report acknowledge that traditionally a parking problem is thought to mean will there be a parking space when I get downtown or to the doctor's or to work? But the leak committee learn that there are more parking problems than occasional space shortages. I found that offer parking policies have worked at cross-purposes to Local transportation and land-use goals in addition as we learn in a few moments parking is expensive whether you pay at the gate or not with me in the studio armadora Perlman St. Paul attorney who chaired the report and Carol Clark citizen League staff person who worked with the committee. Before we get to some specific issues. I'd like to pose a couple of questions that seem to be integral to the reports discussion of parking. Kelly report noted that the direct cost of providing and maintaining parking stalls for the area is 450 million dollars annually or $350 per year per car, but the report also says that 90% of the local Workforce and Shoppers Park free. Is there a contradiction there when we discussed the concept of free parking? Yes. There is free parking is never free somebody pays for it, and it is very expensive and parking is expensive whether you provided in your garage at home or whether retailer provides for you in a Suburban Shopping Center. Let's go into the area of management. Then of a parking space when we find most of the free parking in suburbs where land traditional has been most available report found that there is too much parking space in some Suburban developments. How did this come about two? And what's been the effect? Well, it came about quite naturally at the end of World War II most of the development was already in place did not have adequate parking for the amount of traffic that was generated and accordingly some employees began looking for other locations when they found there was enough parking for their employees and they relocated and as this move took place from the central cities to the suburbs many the suburbs concluded that we can't let this happen to us and accordingly. They made sure through local ordinances that there would be adequate parking when the developments did relocate at their community. Are we over built at some Suburban developments is there too much parking space available? Absolutely. I think it probably is dramatic as anything are the figures on retail space a great many communities have ordinances that translate into anywhere from 10 to 13 spaces per thousand square feet of retail. And experience has shown that this is far more than is necessary Barton Ashman a consultant in the area parking who has done a great deal work in the Twin Cities did a national survey Over a four-year period as far as that National survey, they took aerial photos of the major shopping centers in the Twin Cities area and they found that most of the shopping centers even the Thursday after Thanksgiving and the Friday for Christmas the two busiest times of the year, didn't they do the high ones didn't use much more than 6 bases per thousand and many were down and the three or four range. The report also noted the door of that because the parking space it some developments and outlying areas is overdeveloped overbuilt. It tends to work at cross-purposes with some of the transportation policies were trying to encourage such as carpooling mass transit use multiple use of lots. Is that true in and how does that come into play? How does it work at those cross-purposes? Well, the problem is that when you have a development such as a commercial development or a retail business, so on surrounded by enough parking in order to meet the requirements of the Suburban localities you end up with a land-use pattern of isolated facility surrounded by parking and isolated from each other when facilities don't have to share parking you end up with a configuration that results in people having to drive every place in the suburbs because the facilities are are located apart from each other rather than together this results in a lot of excess land being used for parking. It results in a general the centralization of businesses retail establishment shopping centers and so forth. So the kinds of parking requirements that have been instituted in the suburbs have really resulted in Greater pressure on the use of the car and a much limited ability of transit to serve those kinds of developments by faceted concept called shared parking. Could you explain a little bit more about that concept and how it should be introduced or how it could be introduced to new development or two existing development in the areas that were talking about now. We we feel citizen play committee felt as they studied the situation that It would be possible for four establishments to share their parking in several ways. The first way is that they simply don't need as much as they have been told that they need their for the same amount of parking could service Moore stores or or apartments or whatever. The second thing that we felt should be examined is that if uses which is compatible kinds of parking demands were located together. You would find that this smaller matter parking would do to serve both uses one example is it if you were to locate a an apartment building an office complex together, you would find that each one would have its own peak. Of demand and they would not inflict with each other. They would complement each other so that the same amount of parking would be useful and the total parking needed would be reduced substantially another kind of shared parking is You get more than one person in a car and a classic example of this is at the 3M Center were they thought they were going to need a great deal more parking and it turns out they will get into an aggressive program of encouraging vanpools to bring employees to work and detractors the vanpool and turn stimulated a far greater demand for car pools. So essentially what they're getting is a number of persons in each car and permar definition. We thought this was a very highly productive form of shared parking. So this is one of the options that the Suburban employers can take rather than expanding parking for employees is to create a situation where it's will be lucrative to pool. Have you talked to any of the major Employers in the Suburban areas who have these sorts of problems have told them that they this sort of thing might be available what sort of response have you gotten to the We haven't had a chance to talk specifically about this opportunity with specific and players but there's a group called Public Service options that I came out of the Citizens League. It is currently working with a considerable number of employers trained put together pool vehicle programs. And that program is getting off the ground. They are got a number of Ann's going in the area along the 494 strip and frankly. It's very very promising. It's through your pool vehicle of your car pools and then pulls that you're going to be able to punch people up and get people to ride rather than drive a single car at the diverse decentralized locations in the suburbs. Kelly mentioned earlier that local government in the suburbs and encouraged. A lot of parking at new developments going to be assumed that the government can take some corrective action to hold that over building government really the key. There's a natural incentive for people not to want to build more parking than they actually need because it frankly cost them a great deal and there's some real ways to cut down part of its by encouraging the carpals vanpools. We mentioned another way is to just allow them incentive to reduce the man by getting collocations. If you get an apartment complex Loco located so they can share parking with an awful structure or retail Center and emerging a number of these different uses. The total amount of space is IU's is reduced dramatically. The problem is there's been no incentive to do it because local government is required them to provide just as much parking if they share as if they each build their own and that amount is more than is needed. And as long as they going to have to build more than just needed they would just as soon Dollar Tree standing off by itself and the other way that you can get local government involved. We see is not just in a negative way of not requiring too much parking but inactive positive way of developing a comprehensive plans, which most local governments required to do now which include some kind of look at how the parking will best fit in with the kind of land use and transportation that they want to develop in their area. So we see the local government is having a positive kind of effect. Also Metropolitan Council overseas physical development in the area have your gun with them to recommendations because they control a lot of the development a lot of money that goes for development the recommendations been made at that level up on channel to begin developing parking as part of their overall transportation and land-use planning and they can play a key role part of the problem is that I don't think many of the Suburban communities Ashley know what is the Right amount of parking and what is the best possible model ordinance relative to parking and they don't live in an isolated World there needs to be some data gathered and analyzed on a metropolitan light bases and acting as a facilitator for the local unit of government in as a catalyst. I think the midpoint council could play a major role. We also urge that they begin urging Community government to incorporate parking as part of their mandated comprehensive planning. What's the move to the discussion of what's happening in downtown Minneapolis? And st. Paul where parking is often a crucial issue even more so than in Suburban areas. Before we get to that discussion of the downtown areas. I'd like to invite listeners to phone in questions throughout the the program this morning, I guess once again armadora Perlman sure, one of the Citizens League parking report and Kel Clark of the Citizens League staff. If you have a question about anything that we're discussing this morning bonus at 2211 550-221-1550. Keller Port Susan Pruden parking policies should and will encourage greater patronage of downtown. But often the complaint heard among the infrequent visitor The Shopper is I can't find a spot near Dayton sore. I can't find a spot knew that office building of that Bank downtown easier for me to go to a Suburban Mall. Is there a shortage of parking spaces in Downtown Minneapolis or st. Paul or help part of it? The result of a fairly weak demand for short-term parking parking ramp owners are able to manipulate the split a parking between short-term and all the Parkers and monthly contract Parker's what has happened in the last o I suppose Dozen Years is that due to a relatively weak demand for short-term parking. They've had to increase the percentage of long-term contract leaving a smaller pool and less amount of flexibility in the amount of space is left for short term. So what happens is that someone who comes downtown very occasionally who looks for a space in the one or two ramps in which they're accustomed to finding a space. If this happens to be one of the days where there is more than usual amount of demand finds that there is no space available and or perhaps they get in and take one of the last faces which has it the same kind of effect of saying where boy was I really lucky to get a space. It is really hard to park downtown and one of the concerns we find in being expressed by people is that when that one or two ramp location is full day have very little idea of where to go next to look for parking so that it's partly an informational problem. So what would you recommend that can be done to make Downtown parking more convenient for Shoppers as you go to short-term parking. How do we open up more of those spaces? We fill this out. I have the highest priority and that the business Community working with local government has to ascertain how much short-term parking is required. And this isn't a constant it varies by time of day addendum varies by day a week and particulate varies by specific times during the year. For example immediately Before Christmas. You have a tremendous increase in the man for short-term parking. And so by opening up more space as you you give those people for people chance to come down and do shorts bells of shopping in that sort of thing. The idea is that you give a priority in certain Central locations to short-term Parker's you publicize vary widely what those locations are our suggestion also would be that in order to reduce the amount of demand for all day long term parking that you also give a priority in those ramps for car pools and vanpools thus reducing the pressure on the amount of core parking because the problem is there is in both downtown to finite amount of parking available in the car. It's a very valuable resource and it has to be used to serve as many people as possible. If you've identified how many short-term Parker's you need to service during a given time, then steps can be taken to make sure that your age structure during those periods reflects the short-term need and that spiritual matter. It becomes very expensive for anybody other than the short-term Parker does Park in those very Prime spots. How long should ramp owners encourage these sorts of policies particularly carpooling are there incentives that can be offered are there any instances where programs are in operation currently wear a carpoolers are able to get in for a smaller charge. Is that what we're after here? The operator of downtown Auto Parts in Minneapolis has formed a corporation called downtown carpooling. I believe this a correct name and in it there encouraging people to form vanpools and I do utilize their parking facility for parking noseband pools. And so this is one example where the marketplace is recognized the need and has began doing something about it. Report also said that there's a large supply of vacant stalls course in Downtown Minneapolis St. Paul at night and on the weekends and it indicated that those stalls should be used to lure Shoppers to local Merchants during those off hours. How could that program be implemented? Is it sort of competitive thing was a Suburban not lots. Are you would you be I guess so trying to beat them at their own game their way trying to lure them in with your drop prices. Well, we see this long term effect of lowering people back downtown on weekends. And in the evenings not is so much is competitive with Suburban areas by Das you lysing a resource parking resource that exists now and if it is not utilized will will result and the continued pressure on the Suburban areas to build more Suburban shopping areas farther out. We feel that there is ample business to go around for both the Suburban areas in the downtown. I report suggests that this that the way to lure people back downtown is not necessarily through special rates. Although I think that the parking would have to be free or very low-cost but as part of a combined program opening the Skyway opening a stores at night and creating a exciting and lowering shopping kind of environment for people to To come back downtown and use these facilities. This is something that really turned our committee on we saw that the downtown's if there was no shopping center. They're giving their location. Somebody would want to put one there and we also learned that most retail sales take place in the evenings and on weekends when the downtown to close down and the people who live in the central City's who don't have as good as access to some of the Suburban centers don't have a good convenient place to go in the evenings and weekends and we saw this potential of all this parking is being underutilized on the one hand Downtown parking is the most expensive because it's in rims as a practical matter what it really cost to provided in the evening is now because it's built for the daytime to Mandan. So it's an idle resource that is practically cussing the community nothing in the evening and there's no reason why that couldn't be rather fully utilized in trying to develop a real exciting shopping environment downtown during those periods. You up with local merchants or ramp owners? We've talked to the downtown Council and Minneapolis. We're going to be talking to a group of Saint and Saint Paul and the near future. We've had a lot of individual conversations. There are some difficulties just because all the stores don't operate on the same hours and there a lot of administrative. Thanks, but I think the thing that's very clear is that the principle is right and it ought to happen. The real question is how it can happen. It seems that it would have to be a unified effort to be any good at couldn't just be a couple of of stores. So it really require a Cooperative effort to the downtown Council indicate that they might be interested in exploring it further checking out emergence on their own. Yeah. This is a good idea, but there was some floundering as to procedurally how you go ahead with this kind of idea. Individual Merchants cannot get together and decide on uniform store hours because this violates antitrust laws apparently and so it's a question of how you can get together to reach a common consensus on what you're going to do. I think it's more at that point and rather whether it should be done. Okay time is 1021 and we're discussing parking a recent report on parking by the citizens League pacifically were talking about parking in Downtown Minneapolis. And st. Paul. Do you have a question about parking phone is at 2 to 11550, I guess imma Dora Pearl St. Paul and Carol Clark of the Citizens League staff. Skip to an issue. It's something of an issue parking has become an issue and and local government circles Minneapolis has the City of Minneapolis has gotten into the parking business to extant they've built several lots and ramps on The Fringe areas of downtown the report cautioned against more Public Instruction. What's the policy with the cities pursuing here? And why did you take the stance that you do? Well, the the policy that the city is pursuing is that of of providing parking out of the core area. There is concern that we have to meet Federal air pollution standards that bringing cars into the Central Area downtown will make that impossible and a recognition that the core area is not to be devoted to parking ramps at there's a finite parking Supply there and it says League certainly recognizes that you know that that is a logical approach to parking Our concern is that the parking ramps are being provided so far out of the core area that they are not attracting users at anything close to Market rates and that the city if it is to continue providing expensive ramp parking being built. In an area where where there is not already committed development where there's not Skyway system to service it and so on is going to be heavily investing into the parking business in a way that is probably not going to generate the kind of return this necessary actors on how well as friends parking ramp will be used one clearly how well it will do financially when clearly is how much it cost in the first place in the first that has to be watched very closely. The second is the demand for it and we feel that this has to be watched very closely and that you should build it at that time when the demand really will be generated and that you really will be used in a third factor is just how good a service it provides to the people using that people will pay for more for a parking spot that's directly across from where they work then they will have to walk a block or two. And it varies a great deal by the income of the person who is doing the parking but regardless of the income percentage wise there so dramatic drop off on how much you're willing to pay depending on how far you have to walk and what are you up to a Skyway or walk out in 30 degree weather in February? And so I guess we're very supportive of the overall Minneapolis power save the thing that work. I should we like to caution about is that you tie it so that it occurs at the time that a man's actually strong and that you place it in locations that will actually provide strong enough service to people that they'll be willing to pay a high enough rate that you minimize the losses to the city in the process or I get back to the issue of Public ownership of ramps in a moment, but I see that we have several collar standing by good morning. Do you have a question for us about parking? I saw on US News & World Report last week an article on 5-year projection of prices. And one of the projections was on gasoline cost in a dollar 10 or dollar 20 and 5 years. That's not to say This is Gospel but it is as high already in Europe my question being we're talking about down the road more or less than later this year. So if gas is going to be running this expensive and we're talking about rescuing or addressing an improvement of downtown Minneapolis and st. Paul by improving the parking will people really want to be hopping in the car for Saturday junkets to go shopping downtown when they're paying $2 20 a gallon. On the one hand, I certainly would hope that isn't prices increase that this would have an effect on demand and encourage people to use Transit and be more selective on how they use the car. Unfortunately. It's unclear that this is really going to work that way as you look at the experience since the Arab Oil Embargo. There was a site tapering off immediately and then within a short. Of time that a man got right back on the schedule of increases that have been experienced before the Embargo, even though there had been something like a doubling of the price of gasoline. What other, I'd like to make if if we Revitalize the downtown's in such a way that there's this resource becomes available on the weekends and in the evenings, if people want an alternative to shopping in their car, the downtown is going to be the better better alternative because we do not now service most Suburban areas with adequate Transit. So our proposal would in essence managed to hold on to the downtown's against the day that part that gas become so expensive that people will simply not wanted as you say hop in the car and go downtown certainly would be brief and it's it's my first 25 years has been in Chicago and the shopping in Chicago is legendary has excellent. Let me just say that I lived in the suburbs 20 miles west and that currently in for the past five years or so Housewives students, whatever regularly take the train. Because parking is such a such a chore down there and it's it's a real grind. So we've really got something exciting up here in Minneapolis. And st. Paul. I think you can use a downtown without it feel like you're going to the dentist and I think that's one of our biggest dance at thank you very much for your question and you, thank you now. We have another caller standing by good morning. You have a question about parking at the University of Minnesota and at the state capitol complex in St. Paul. That's correct. Pacific report recognized during some periods of time at the Capitol. It's near impossible for the public to to to get to find a place to park at Sea during legislative session. How how do you actually manage the supply of parking in a situation like that where up during a few months of the year? There's an increased demand for parking and I will be interested in any general comments you have on the the parking situation at the Capitol complex specifically any any recommendations on how that could be improved. But we place the greatest priority on taking care of short-term parking needs and it's easier to do at the state capitol complex because the parking is owned and operated by the state of Minnesota and it's a question of how much parking you set aside and Reserve through your right structure for the truck turn to man. Obviously the states got to make special efforts to try to provide arrangements for people who are parking there year-round outside of the session. So you take care of their needs to and possibly this can be done with shuttle buses from other parking location to whatever but clearly there's a management decision has to be made that were first going to provide adequate supply of parking for those people who need it on a short-term basis during the session Minnesota has already begun doing to to deal with this problem is to encourage carpools among its employees Again by the rate structure giving a reduced rate for carpool for employees. Carpool this way as we indicated earlier in program. We talked about Sherrod parking you will be able to get far more people able to ride into the Capital Area and park with the same number of spaces which again would free up more space is for the occasional transient user who has really no choice but to drive by myself often one of the things that the state capital even during off station. You have a very significant portion of the people driving the state capitol who are parking in the surrounding neighborhood and it is a very major problem and it's very difficult to cope with you also have a great deal of industry in that area. And so one of the most difficult problems are committee face, just what you doing those neighborhood where you get the extensive spillover parking from a generator like the state capital and I guess we concluded that the key element is enforcement and that we feel that the person at the this case the state who is the responsible for the generation has Reese. Possibility to help out with the cost of vigorously enforcing local parking ordinances in that area. One of the problems though, I think is some of the reasons people do Park in the surrounding neighborhood is that the available closing parking it is is not available. It's a few meters on the capital in the other State Office Building are almost always filled even during our session. So would you how specifically with that management decision what's wrong with management decision take another public parking ramp closed to the capital more parking lots off street parking reserved for the public rather than employees. well clearly the metered spaces as you indicated are almost always full the kinds of management would have to take place offstage off-street parking probably in the in the ramp that exist now begin with Okay, thank you very much for your question. We have another call or standing by but I see that we have two lines open now. So I'm going to give out the number one more time and it's too to 11550. I guess I'll give it up one more time to to 11550. If you have a question about parking our topic this morning, let's talk a little bit more about the state situation and in a few moments because it's really interesting and a tissue in the state is doing some things to encourage the idea of of shared parking. But first I'd like to get back to that issue of of public ownership of parking ramps in Minneapolis Callan. My question is is is the city profiting from the Rams existing Ram safebuilt. No, they're not. And I guess we don't necessarily expect that they have to show a profit on each one of the ramp. In fact in the government center ramp last year that is almost ideally located with people coming in from 94 in St. Paul circling two sides of the ramp and people coming in from I-35 to the South circling two other sides that rampant charging $28 a month last year of lost $20 per month per stall have the theories behind building Ram facilities by the city is is to encourage development and there is a feeling I think on the part of the the city planners in the city council that you can offset the losses in the parking ramps with the increased tax revenue from development. But again, we've indicated that we think that should be looked at very closely. The downtown Minneapolis have any sort of a or excuse me does city government in Downtown Minneapolis have a committee that to reviewing the parking situation to make sure that ramps and public lots are an older building that they are not hurting the existing private ramps. Yes. It has requested the committee be formed in there. Now meeting weekly looking at this problem and they're trying to within the current month reach a decision on a couple ramps that are fairly limited and decision-making and then backing off and taking the developing a longer-term strategy of parking. I hope that that when they do that they will also include how you better manage and better utilize those very key precious bases that are available within the core itself. All right, we have listener standing by good morning. Do you have a question? Yes, this is getting back to private parking into the middle urban area between the core City in the suburbs, What can be done about Suburban oriented companies like Kmart that went to him impose their ratios are higher parking ratios on mid city area such as the Nicollet Lake Area. It took a lot of hard fighting from neighborhood groups to get them to reduce the ratio slightly in the parking lot that they finally did have and it's taking a continuous pressure to get Kmart to consider sharing parking with industry or other local businesses. We think it's very important that incendies be provided for the developer of the parking to share it as broadly as possible. If that means that they will have to provide less parking. Dinnerly. They're very receptive to the general problem is the opposite of the situation you're exciting. We're by the developer sees need for Less parking and it's the music polity that requiring more now, I recognize that's not the situation in the particular Kmart development, but I guess we feel very strongly that local government should do everything. They can to encourage each developer to Shearer's parking as broadly as possible and make it a community resource rather than the resource only to one specific facility. One of the most difficult ones that the city faces and that is what do you do in the older commercial and residential areas that are fully developed about providing adequate parking so that they can thrive And I think the kind of situation that you have outlined is shows that you can get o a good interaction between the developer in the neighborhood that can come out with a positive result from both of them. But it as you indicated will probably take neighborhood pressure on a developer and and we feel that the city should become actively involved in helping these kinds of and helping these older neighborhoods work out there parking problems so I can for you a question and thanks for next color for waiting. Good morning. You're on the air good morning. And I have a kind of a peripheral comment to make regarding public parking downtown motorcycle when the weather permits and they're more and more of us who sang Downtown quite often for that reason and their number of public while I can Public Access watch not publicly motorcycles in. I I don't think that this is really even legal in a situation where it's publicly licensed and I understand that the private ramps are not licensed, but they can keep that restrict motorcycles name actually a very good reasons for writing them and they're probably more ecologically sound and some others and wonder if anyone there who would care to address comments. public officials in charge of this sort of thing on utilizing more news of a spaces in a in this parking lot that can be taken up in a lot of parking lots. In fact is satisfied spaces specifically for motorcycles, but it's a little disconcerting at Daytons for example of the ramp and then come back and find somebody painted up to fit a local post and telling you that that don't do it again or will impound your motorcycle etcetera, etcetera sure it is are we able to address that particular comment art committee didn't consider that particular issue. It didn't come up. However, it's issues like this that make it very important that somebody have responsibility for planning and thinking through the overall parking management downtown and clearly making spaces available for bikes and motorcycles in this sort of thing is an important ingredient in the management of your excess downtown and we would hope that these kind of issues do become the responsibility of some group hopefully comprised of both the bed. community and government Thank you very much for your comment. We have one more call or standing by. Good morning to have a question about parking the car. I commute to buy bicycle to work in the Midway District about 6 months or longer during each year. And I feel the government should all those government should encourage people to use or think about the bicycle is a message and I think we should be strong and courage and one of the ways to do this would be to provide secure parking areas in ramps downtown so that people can lock the bicycles or like many other parts of the country lockers provided two or three parking spaces. That would normally be used for cars would park at considerable number of bikes though or motorcycles also is the previous caller stated. Would reduce our pollution and also and courage the healthful benefits for the individuals, Bop. Well, we certainly agree with that we Are were dressing a number of issues that have to do with getting people to use any form of transportation other than simply one person in one car and I think the problem is equally difficult in the suburbs where access to Commercial and Retail Salvage months is so limited two bicyclists are Walkers because of the vast Seas of parking and the streets that have to be crossed. I we agree that the bicycle certainly should be taking in consideration and in doing long range planning for for parking. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much for your call. We're taking calls this morning about parking and report on parking performed by the citizens like several weeks ago at 2 to 11550. And as I found out from last call the topic certainly isn't limited just two cars were talking about different modes of transportation as well and how they fit into the transportation scheme and how parking should be introduced into that scheme. I'll talk specifically about downtown Saint Paul for a moment. We spent time on Minneapolis. You said in the report that the city has used public parking ramp as a development tool to an extent Cal. What do you mean by that than and what's been the policy and effects so far through what I'll call the science center development. It's a development that will provide space for the new science center. It will provide a medical office space that will provide apartments and in order to get that project. Going it was felt that some form of public subsidy was needed and the former Flugtag subsidy took in part tax increment financing, but it also Incorporated cities providing a ramp underneath that facility at a subsidised rate. And by the way, they're also this is also part of the arrangement under the new proposed Radisson Hotel and under the new 7th place development by Oxford Corporation. They are building a ramp under those two facilities again in part to stimulate that developing new business that way is that a dangerous Transit something that we should do be aware of and watch put it off Sceptre the market forces that the report so often alludes to I think anytime the city gets involved people in our committee felt that it's very important that they be very cautious and how they do it and they know what they're expending and why they're expending that is what they're getting Ford for example and those two and I'm not being too critical of it, but they're providing the parking underneath the building and we learned that that's a very expensive for my parking in Effect. 1 parking Consultants suggested that you met pay as much as $3,000 a stall more to put parking in that location than you would if you built in Project without the parking underneath and build a ramp alongside. The concern is I think that that you take a very careful. Look at the amount a realistic look at the amount of City Revenue, which Willie really will be devoted to making up the deficit when you when you get into it. Once it gets into the parking business st. Paul taking a close. Look do they have a body that's monitoring that the time that I was doing the study a new parking commission was formulated and it has is appointed by the mayor of Who-ville study counsel and it has people from private parking industry people who are the users as well as general public representatives and they are beginning to work at looking at the old developing an overall parking strategy and relating a lot of things together with parking that have it done in the past and we're not necessarily advocating that is exact model. It might be appropriate Minneapolis, but we certainly think that's a very positive step forward and they're delighted to see the parking spot. This kind of attention to report recommends raising the cost of on street parking in Downtown st. Paul imagine. That means at the metered spaces Bond Street in Aquaria. Why do you make that recommendation light rays that be right now? It's far cheaper to park on the street in downtown Saint Paul and I've got to confess my come downtown by can I park on a meter on the street to save some change and I found myself driving around the block a time or two to find that free space and it's our understanding from people in there traffic planning engineering department that this is fairly common and widely recognized the people coming downtown st. Paul do Circle quite a bit looking for a place. So this creates extra unnecessary traffic more important when you park and then when you leave your parking stall you're pulling out into a lane of traffic and you're throwing down that line of traffic and you're also run a very significantly higher risk of an accident in that activity. And almost anything else you would do in your car until there are a great deal of accidents that are directly attributed to extensive use of on-street parking. The other thing is somewhat self-defeating the idea of providing this parking is that it provides good short-term access and that's true. Although it did self-defeating because it makes it less profitable for the people who are running off Street facilities to provide short-term parking cuz they have to compete against this very low rate. And so they're less inclined to reserve spaces for church in Parkers, which diminishes your total demand is short-term parking at working against the very goal of providing it. Very good. The highlight of any visit to Minneapolis has got to be to try to park at the University of Minnesota at about 2 on a school day. Good luck. Fortunately. I was on a bus line when I was a student at the you understand that the University of Minnesota operates the largest parking system at least under one Management in the area. What sort of policies now you reviewed the University's parking scheme? What did you find there? Are you critical of the university in the way? It manages its parking lots founded the University was providing extremely low cost parking that it was utilizing much of the parking is available there and so long-term contract parking for faculty and staff that there is a substantial problem with spill over into the neighborhood that the university we feel should have some part in trying to regulate over all our conclusions were that the university should manage is parking Supply again giving priority to short-term users who were who should be charged a much higher rate than they are presently being charged and over subscribing some of their contract Lots. So that fewer spaces will again serve a great many more people we felt it that The parking Supply that is now available to University could be handled in a much more efficient manner to provide parking for many more people. We also felt it should be as I said before be much higher that isn't that it's attracting too many people to attempt to park at the University with it's very low-cost. We found that any employer has a great deal of opportunity to influence in some ways the transportation behavior of its employees and university is a large employer have fits spaces are reserved for people who are employees of the university in example of something that we think positive. I guess the same application could be made at the University Saint Paul companies in downtown st. Paul resource bases in there a lot immediately adjacent to their building for people on the basis of carpool. And the person in the carpool has been with the company longest determines the priority among those people carpooling when they moved this program, it's our understanding what happened is that secretary is another issue had been If a company 25-30 years were suddenly finding a half a dozen different people wanting to pick him up on the way to work and a tremendous incentive for people to get into carpools with at the University. If you're on the staff and you stay around 3 years or 4 with your name on the parking list and you get one of these contracts places, you've got a pretty off leg good as a single passenger individual Parker and we just like to see some incentive spelled insulted even if your faculty member you have an incentive of getting a better deal. If you're in a pool float situation where you're giving a slip out if you would like being a purple what they like at this point is the incentive and what kind of thing is. We'd like to the university get involved in a positive incentive to getting people in the car pools. Do you want to gross about University of Minnesota Park and give us a call at 221-1550? So the university now has a Cool parking. Ski Moorea carpool parking scheme how extensive is it? One of the experiments university has tried is carpool Lots. They have reserved certain lots. That only carpools can get in up till say noon and they have told us that these lots of failure. Well, one of the problems is that there are the lots have not been used because there is ample parking right next to the last that is not carpool parking and people have been using is there any difference in cost between what it cost to park if I have three people in my car if I just drive in myself as I understand it or lose. My memory is that there was no difference in cost. The only and said it was supposed to be that you could get us space at a time when otherwise you would be unlikely to get one but it didn't work because there were so many spaces that we're not carpool lot oriented. The people were finding that they had a good places to park during the early periods in the morning. How much does it cost? Matthew about 50 Cent's recommendations in the cost area saying that if someone is going to drive into a lot by him or herself at 8 in the morning, it should cost twice as much as if he or she brings two or three other students along then having the two or three students split the the rate it will be cheaper for the carpool to split a high-cost among 3 people say they did have some faces that they were preserving for Transit at $0.40 an hour. What were the most common transcend Arrangement is $0.55 per day and lots and eighty cents per day in ramps, which if you park any place else where they charge parking in the region, you know, that's extremely reasonable. I believe we have a collar standing by good morning. Do you have a question about the parking at the you or anywhere else has a fact of the puppy carpool University the incentive is not because after this is on the Westbank, there are no spaces available and that you have to wait for approximately 45 minutes or more say between 10:11 and 12 to come in in the carpool lot is half-full at that time in the carpool lot is right next to these lots of people are waiting so that there is no incentive to wait a half-hour burst is coming in with three people and I'm going right in the carpool lot. I know students who will go around the drive around with the windows rolled on asking for people to get the car. So they get to the carpool lot. That's the way that they are so that except I would I would agree with you except at the other place that people then Park is unfortunately the neighborhood to some extent. I mean, I think that you've been waiting for an hour 45 minutes to an hour if by rising or raising the price of parking in the normal lots and lots where you can park by yourself that will create more space and because more people will pool and come to school together. Is it is it it's a different question that might to be an incentive, but you have a second thing at the University which is different than the holler. And if you started to 22824 Troy Decker extra curricular education at the University academic life of the classroom for students. One of the problems with car pools that isn't it raining at forces people to leave together and come and go to clubs all the things. He had some very lengthy discussions about this rate problem in one of the things that came up is that today's University student is very likely be employed someplace else then the University at time. During the day and a very high percentage of students have to leave for a portion of the stage a day and a two of a different pattern and it's been in pastures some of them. We had a I don't know if this is unusually high percentage of our committee members had attended the University at one time or another and so had some very strong feelings relative to their own experiences and many of them did point out that had during the period that they were The university that there apparently was much more incentive for people to get in car pools. And even it meant that you come at the time that the first class of any of the pool has a class and you stay till the last ones done with us spending some time at the library in between. We have more color standing by. Good morning. You're on the air. Having truck loading zones near bus stops, especially their on Minnesota and 7th nearest believe it was one day when the bus was going by and there were three trucks there and the bus was forcibly around to pick up the passengers and that leaves the bus with with the part of his back and sticking in the traffic in cars. Can I get by and then there's a problem to of having cars parking and bust up and I was wondering you know how how they can be enforced. You know, what there could be a possibility of having anal truck loading zones farther back from where the fossa where the bus stops are did not really deal with the question of truck loading zone as you've indicated. However, the the on-street parking is something of a problem in terms of the free flow of traffic and we did generally recommend that there is Beef for this reason for other reasons to discuss me earlier in the program that we feel that on street parking Saint Paul's its should be reduced. Alright, thank you for the question. I'm sorry that we couldn't address it, but they committed did not take it up as my daughter mentioned. We have another caller standing by. Good morning. Do you have a question on parking? People coming in from the suburbs to downtown and carpooling and such and in that discussion. It just seemed there was no mention whatsoever of Public Service public transportation. And I think that's something beyond the reality that it's probably going to end up with in the future. I think maybe go some pressure to getting much much better public pensions, which we do not have now, so I wanted to know what's being done in that vein or committed clearly felt better managing your parking the Troy Prime locations within the core of the two downtowns that you can provide a real incentive to get somebody to ride with someone else and I guess we didn't distinguish it being particularly advantageous being whether they ride and 50 passenger bus or car holding five other passengers. We we we feel the both needs to be encouraged. One of the problems is that we want to encourage and get as many people as possible to ride the bus and yeah this a practical matter. There are some limitations as to how good a service you can ride how many people on the bus until I think you want to maximize what you can but then you got to do some other things as far as getting people to ride with someone else besides just of us. We saw the bus system is being a very important support of a carpool system. And that is that that as the one with colors mentioned before about the university you freaking lie find a situation in which someone gets a ride downtown through a carpool or vanpool or whatever but is having difficulty getting home is not going to leave at the same time somebody else and therefore we feel that very good efficient transit system works hand-in-hand with this with this kind of system in that people will have an opportunity to use both and will probably use both rather than drive their own car. Thank you for your question. I had one last comment what that is is that I think that's a lot of work has to go into getting the public service. All right. Thank you for your comment in a minute or so that we have left and it's a short amount of time. But let's take up the issue of the state capital area where we talked briefly is roughly about 4,000 cars up there every day, but only about 2,000 parking stalls. They spill into the neighborhood. What do you propose that the capillary are unique position? Because they can initiate policy there. They are the government gives discount to on the parking charges for each carpool writer for a total of up to five. That means that the discount can run up to as much as $7.50 a month in addition. The legislature is composed of 25% surcharge on parking for employees who drive alone on a regular basis. We think this is just a tremendously positive step and that we see the this kind of incentives to being important ingredients. It may be that on top of this they're going to have to do some things as far as adding additional parking but we certainly think that you want to maximize the use of these kind of incentives. If for no other reason that's why it less expensive than a construction solution to the problem. Very good. The time is rapidly approaching 11 a.m. And we've been discussing a recent report by the citizens league on parking policy in the Twin Cities area. Our guests have been St. Paul attorney Medora Perlman Personnel report and Kyle Clark of the league staff. Thank you both for being here this morning. And to our listeners voices in the wind is coming up in about 20 seconds on Minnesota Public Radio Al listener-supported station.