You're having my baby. And how much you love me? Having My Baby What are those? What's your house is not behaving. Yoda for many having and raising a child can be as Paul. Anka sings it one of the greatest expressions of love between two people but it's not that kind of experience for everyone. We didn't use the question having children very much. It was considered natural for people to have at least a few children and begin doing so soon after they got married those times have changed with the availability of reliable contraception and the trend toward women becoming more involved in careers outside the home whether or not to have children has become a much more conscious decision for many people and as it becomes clear that couples have a choice many are beginning to take a close look at what's involved in being a parent in order to help them decide whether they want that style of life for themselves this morning. We're going to look at some of the steps in that process of deciding whether or not to one should become a parent will also talk about some of the pressures we put on each other to have children with me in the studio this morning to help with that task is dr. Linda bud and assistant professor at the University of Minnesota and there. Family social sciences doctor, but good morning. And welcome. I guess I'd like to begin by asking you why shouldn't everybody apparent couples have children not all couples want children match today in our society. We have a lot of different phenomena that are going on with the mobile nuclear family couples are being asked to live apart from their families of origin apart from their own parents apart from their relatives, like their aunts and uncles and bringing up a child is a lot has a lot more responsibilities when you are the only Soul caretakers of that child of two parents are or maybe the single parents in some cases. So the decision is a decision and many people. Take into account a lot of different factors about why they don't are considering not having children some people think about the factors related to their careers that they want to work. They the woman especially the pressures that we determined from the study that I've been working with the negative consequences seem to be very heavily oriented on the women. So what happens is the woman says maybe I can't have a career and a child but it's not just the people who are into careers that maybe don't want to have children. Some people really want to have up what we call a companionate marriage. They really want to work together as a couple and their fearful that a child may come into that marriage and they somehow take away some of the real fantastic things that they built together as a two-person unit other people are really not maybe not necessarily into their careers, but they're into their own kind of self-growth and self-esteem and they don't see a child as a part of that other people desire to travel and they just want to see your up see the world there so many things to learn and certainly children inhibit traveling to some extent you have to talk about how a child can fit into those plans and what happens there. For some people it's it has something to do with fear. They're really afraid of children in the sense that they don't know. What a child is. They haven't had experience experience with babies. An example of a thing that I think I've lost who that is the fact that our families are mobile there nuclear families. We have often have our children space within 5 years apart. So if you grew up in a family where there's two or three children may never have experienced having a baby around and there's a lot of fear about what is the thing called baby? I'm not sure I'm comfortable around this thing. I don't know anything about babies. What would that do to us? If we bring a baby into this relationship with most of our generation that's in their twenties and thirties a lot of them do not know anything about children an example of that and I think we talked about this example one time earlier is that the example of a person who sees a child my mother after she's had a baby and they walk up to the hospital and they go visit their friend. And the woman's just gave birth to a baby and some men they look at that woman and say hey, I thought you had a baby and I've heard men say that because they didn't know that the woman continue to be large after the pregnancy because they know so little about child rearing childbirth children in general and that's just one way. They have a lot of fears imagine that there are some people who would say most anybody can be a parent and the best way to learn is like swimming you just jump in and have a baby and it all comes naturally. How do you respond to that? I am don't respond very well because yeah, we have traditionally said in this society that parenting comes naturally but that was in a time when we had a lot more experience with children tend to think of the example of A hog farmer who decides he wants to go into raising cows. And when he decides he wants to go into raising cows. He goes into his local agricultural experiment station and he says, you know, I think I'm going to go into the business of raising calves and they sit down for half a day and they talk all about how much it cost to raise a cow what the feed cost are what kinds of medicine and sicknesses cows. We might get into might need as far as the medical needs. But we tend to think on the other side that hey when you decide to have a child you just have it you don't sit down and talk about it. I think having a child is a conscious decision and if we're going to put all that much effort into having cows and our Farms, we should put that much effort into having children in our homes. So which one's more important is that the children of the cow and For some people they'd rather put the effort into their careers rather than the child and they do have children naturally and then they have a lot of concerns about what they're doing with the child study that you're working on. Tell me a little bit about that for the past 5 years in the department. We have been conducting a study on Child free lifestyle. We call it child-free because that's what the couples in the study prefer to be called. They think yes. Yes and the couple seemed to think of child fries having a more positive connotation to a choice that they've made the study originated. As I said about 5 years ago, the people were interested in exploring who these people were what the phenomena of child-free living was in our society. We know very little about the segments of population of people who decide that they don't want to have children. So they began by having some workshops and inviting couples in who had made that decision or were in the process of making the decision and in the course of time, they threw these these workshops developed a questionnaire and we subsequently administer that questionnaire to 275 child-free couples and 110 childhood couples and for the past two years. We've been putting that data together and trying to produce something about trying to put together the pieces of what this phenomena looks like. We just begun but we do have some information about What how child-free couples perceive themselves as potential parents what they look like in terms of their age and their religion. We know that for instance that most a couple to participate in their study are in their mid-to-late twenties. Although the range varies from early twenties to the 70s. We have a quite a range of people who did participate we know that the phenomena of child-free Lifestyles from our research and from other research that's been done is mostly an urban phenomena. It's not a real phenomena at this time. We know that the people who choose to be childfree often do not consider themselves to be religious people. We know several small factors like this about it and we're trying to put together some more about what they consider their lifestyle to be about and try to understand the choice that they made one of the things that you're working on to is trying to outline some steps that people can go through in order to reach a decision as to whether or not they want to have children or if they already have some children whether or not they want to have more but the emphasis more really is on whether or not to have any children one of the people who originated the project has subsequently finished her doctoral dissertation out of the project and she develops and commitment scales scales having to do with the pressure and the rationale for deciding whether or not to be childfree or as you said if you have one child deciding whether or not what you really want to do is have a second child or a third child lot of pressures in our society today about having children. I think most of us aware that To some extent that when a couple has been married at a minimum of a year, maybe two years for some couples that maybe three or four the begin to hear statements from their relatives from their parents from the grandparents from all kinds of people about well. Aren't you going to have children or she would really like to have a little baby boy bouncing on our new you're getting kind of lonely around here without any little ones and the little one said that they make themselves clear at where can I hear things? Like as your fellow colleague who sits up the desk next to you as had a child. He may have a lot of pressure put on him like for your next and because he may be the only person in the office that hasn't had a child yet or for the woman the pressures are often related to employment to what happens is the woman is asked if she applies for job, maybe she's asked her maternal status and oftentimes she's faced with the employer especially if she's in her mid-to-late twenties will the Dilemma the employer says what are you going to do about children? If she says I'm not going to have children of the employer could take that as yes, this woman could really be Headed to the job but unfortunately often times because we have so many stereotypes and the society about what a child less or a child free person is that it's taken very negatively. Will this person couldn't do a very good job because they're selfish. They're immature. They won't settle down because we know that child free people just float around from our study. I think we can say that no the cup of to deciding to not have children are very serious about this there. They are not immature. One of the kinds of smaller studies we've done within a larger study has to do with what we call in our field moral development or stage development is an idea developed by Lawrence kohlberg and it talks about the way we decide what's right and wrong and in looking at these child-free couples and comparing them to our childhood sample. We found that the couples We're there isn't any difference in the way. They decide right and wrong that it doesn't seem to be the presence or the absence of children in the home that help facilitate. This is development and morally and in the way that we make decisions that instead there must be other factors and that's what we hope to tap in on if we get more and more into these the study that we have the data on right now. We we believe that couples develop the process of development is preferred by many different things and certainly children is an excellent way to help a person grow personally and develop to maturity. But what we're finding is that it probably is not the only way and some of these couples who decided to be childfree are choosing other ways. Maybe it's the way they foresee the responsibilities and Society. Maybe it's the way they hook up with other families. It can be lots of different things even the way they judge their everyday living style, but they seem to have substitutes. Maybe it's a personal enrichment kinds of courses. It can be lots of things for developing themselves personally and that is taking the place of children in some respect for those couples. Dr. Budd, you've agreed to answer listener questions this morning and I'm going to mention that this time that if you'd like to ask, dr. Linda Bud from the University of Minnesota question about child free-living making the decision of whether or not to have children, you can call us this morning on the phone number in the Twin Cities area is 221 1500. That's two to 11500. If you're listening to us outside the Twin Cities metropolitan area, but in the state of Minnesota, you can call us toll-free and that number is 1 800-652-9700. Again, it's a toll free number. It's 1 800-652-9700 while we're waiting for a phone call. I guess I would I'd like to continue and and and ask you a few for in your study found or talk with people who have some of the older people who have not had children remain child-free. and are in their 50s and 60s, what are the what are some of the the possible penalties or disadvantages, especially in older age of not having children only we have a lot of ideas about what could be We always have fears are the fears that I hear have to do with aging and am I going to be alone? We sample itself we can't we haven't separated out those couples yet, but we really don't know how those couples are coping and that's a big question. I think we're going to have to do a lot of studying with it. But I find that the most of the parents I know have the same kinds of fears a lot of factors that have to do with the myths that we have about what a couple days like this child-free that somehow affects this decision to have children and it's and it's apart from whether or not we enjoy children whether or not we think we can contribute to the development of a child and what we have to give in that area somehow children have been associated in this Society. With the taker cares of us those people who take care of us when we're old and we have a lot of fears about that. They've been associated with our sexuality. It's a man doesn't have a child. He may be an ass, but what's the matter you shooting blanks or something? He could be asked all kinds of things that have to do with his masculinity. I mean not having to do with whether or not he feels like he can bring up a child and wants to contribute in that area that has to do with his sexual Macho nose. So to speak and the woman what happens to the woman is if she doesn't have a child who doesn't want children often times the mess have to do with well, aren't you aren't you a maternal person? And if you're not a caregiver as a as a woman should be are the kinds of sugar do we have in this Society? If you don't want children, then you must be this horrible kind of person who doesn't I'd like to give to other people and doesn't like to be around other people and it's selfish then coming back to this notion of selfishness for women. We also have the notion that if we don't have a child. Then maybe we're not experiencing this complete kind of phenomena of being a woman somehow having a child is really hooked into fulfillment. And if we don't have this life experience, we really missing a tremendous experience that will mature if it goes back to be selfish immature kinds of sex. What we're talking about apparently has raised at least a few people's interest because there are all our phone lines are almost all our phone lines reflect their lit up right now. And so we're ready to take the first phone call a good morning doctor about his listening for your question. Good morning. You're on the air. Go ahead with your question, please children Harbison to get an unexpected child and I'd like to know what I mean. All of a sudden is child-free couples know how to bring up the child or what happens to the town cuz that's important. Yeah, that's true. There's certain levels of commitment in this decision to be childfree and certainly in the scales that we were talking about earlier that Gale sowing has developed. the idea of commitment to being childfree is also related back to the form of birth control with sterilization being the highest commitment to being childfree. I think these couples who are deciding to be childfree and have really made an effort the ones that I'm aware of that a really made this process of decision contracept themselves, very thoroughly. So I'm not sure that this thing occurs very often, but even in couples that haven't sat down and made a decision about whether or not they wanted children and then suddenly because of their method of birth birth control. I do have a child. What I see is a kind of process of learning about children that goes on at that time and trying to re-evaluate that decision such that in the 9 months of pregnancy and thank heaven. We do have nine months that gives us a time to think about what this is going to do with our life and re-evaluate our decision that we may be made a little earlier. I not weak we can't tell when that final decision is made certainly people can sit down and say yeah, I didn't think I want children but we're all out what we're also aware of that and this is something we have to be aware of with respect to sterilization that they may change their minds and and we're certainly aware that some of the couples who originally came in and were involved in our study have subsequently decided to have children and overtime over the time of the relationship and over what they're doing with himself personally their views may change now this this comes into the issue of sterilization and certainly one of the troubles that the people have run into that have decided to be sterilized is that they've had a lot of problems obtaining sterilization because the agencies want to somehow develop some way of being sure Trying to check with a couples to be sure their Commitment if they've decided this and they dude seek sterilization and is some it is a final decision because sterilization is sterilization. We don't have a reversal procedure that to any extent can be counted upon then what happens is with one couple that I'm aware of the had decided to be Channel free then their only option is to consider adoption. After that point is it is it is a commitment. There's no doubt about it and they have to consider other options and maybe it's not a bad option some child-free couples. Not a child-free couples don't like children and I'd like to get that across during this time because most child-free couples that I do know and that I worked with really do enjoy children and get a lot of enjoyment out of being with children. They involve themselves with children very intensely having a child and not being with a child as it is a very different way to involve yourself each other, but what they They do is that they may go and involve themselves with another couple who has a child and really get very much involved with a child rearing of a child is not their own soda caption isn't the only option but only for person that sterilize a sterilized. I cannot count upon having that procedure reversed at this time. Looks like all the lines are are taking up. But if you'd like to call us a give us a call at 221-1500 Twin Cities outside the Twin Cities one 800-652-9700. We're ready for our next caller. Go ahead doctor about his listing for your question. Good morning. Well, apparently we'll switch. Let's switch to another line. Good morning. Dr. Bud is listening for your question. Good morning. Doctor bud is listening for your question. Hello. I will try another line. Time is about 224 and 1/2 minutes past 10 and we're currently having a little trouble with our phone lines. We have somebody on the line now, good morning doctor, but is waiting for your question choosing to remain child-free. That's a good question. I'm sorry. I didn't bring that up earlier. From the day that we have in this is US Census Data. We think that approximately of our population married population who are in the fertility range. There's about 14% in this that the city is very tremendously, but about 14% of married couples do not have children. Now what we do in terms of parody Notions is that we cut that in half because as you know, not all those people who do not have children choose not to have children some people cannot conceive or have trouble with conception. So the figures that I'm most familiar with song from some of the other studies that I'm aware of usually side around 6 to 7% of the population are choosing certainly this is getting mixed up in our society because right now I'm beginning to see and some of my colleagues who are in the family field the delay in the childbearing stage. So it's very difficult to tell brother there. 67% is the average that she was but it could be much higher. It could be a little lower because all the kinds of factors like Adelaide chair is childbearing kind of response is getting mixed up with that some couples today are choosing not to have children until they are have been married for five or six years until they are fairly settled in their careers. And I do think we're seeing a phenomena not only a couple great deal more couples choosing not to have children, but we're also seeing a phenomena of people delaying their childbearing in their relationship. Does that help you? Okay. We're going to take another phone call right now. Go ahead. We're listening for your question. Good morning. Are you there? Yes, you're on the errand doctor but his listing for your question. While apparently were continuing to have some trouble with our phones. We're talkin about sounds like we have another caller on the line now. Go ahead. We're listening for your question. Good morning. Good morning. We listening for your question. I have a question. Recap just given birth to her fourth child and we were all prepared for stability before this pregnancy. And I thought that we were we've had counseled with the doctor and so forth and now it seems yesterday. I canceled my husband's going back to me because I don't think I can deal with it and I would like to know where one would go for counseling to get it all back together again to decide that this is in a financially and emotionally the end of our family but I just right now with a new baby. I can't deal with it, but get something has to happen because we already have to almost mistake. Well as I hear that I also hear this kind of a dilemma because you enjoy your children and yet making a decision not to have children is it is a very hard thing when you really love your children and they're enjoying them. I would suggest that you go to on any of the family and children's agencies in the Twin Cities. There's both Minneapolis family and children's agency in Saint Paul family and children's agency in the suburbs is Burnsville family consultation Center others Jetson Family Center in Minneapolis. There are many people who are involved. Most of the family agencies could help you with this decision in particular the woman who is doing the commitment and rationale studies is a professor in general college, and she's certainly she's also marriage and family counselor. So am I so that That specific private people who are in private practice could also help you but I'm sure someone at the at the one of the agencies United Way supported agencies or private agencies here in the Twin Cities would be able to help you think through that decision. Does that answer your question? Okay. You're welcome. We are going to take another phone call. Good morning. We're listening for your question. Hello. Too bad. I have a daughter who's 28 years old has been married for about eight or nine years and they made a decision sometime ago to now they are not sure whether that was a wise decision or not and in talking to her. She's been really very frustrated as to where to go to get help or literature on the subject that might be useful. Certainly one of the one of the books that I would suggest that people read in terms of the decision to be child child free or to have children in it. It's an excellent book by Elizabeth Whelan and it's called baby maybe and I think Whelen is very nice at sitting kind of on the border of not pushing a child for adoption Yet at the same time saying the decision to parent is an important responsible decision. And since I don't know where your daughter lives and I don't know what kind of agencies are in there depending upon where she lives she may be able to obtain help again at one of your family and children's agencies in that area the United way depending on the population of the area does support many different family children series centers in various fairly populated areas, but if not, I'd suggest that she order this book and began reading they are because I think that's one of the most helpful books in terms of thinking through that decision Weiland wheelan. And the title of the book is a baby, maybe maybe maybe and she was making the decision when she wrote the book. She went in. She was not a family specialist, but she went in as a journalist trying to make a decision herself or herself in her husband. I won't tell you how that's the decision was resolved and she was making that decision as a process of writing the book. It's 28 and 1/2 minutes now before 11, and we're talkin about child free marriage and try child-free Lifestyles and our guest this morning is dr. Linda Budd who is an assistant professor in the department of family social science at the University of Minnesota, and we're taking phone calls this morning and we have another caller on the line right now. Good morning. Go ahead with your question, please. Good morning. Good morning. Speaking of I can't hear you from this end. Speaking of the childfree husband. It's it's been eight years since we made our decision on being childfree couple and I it's it amazes me that still in this day and time it seems difficult for people to think that they have me or would have trouble being a single individual being able to become sterilized because there are number of doctors in specially Minneapolis that will do sterilization Zone on young man who is know who has decided not to have children. I think we have nearly the problem with that here in the Twin Cities that you would have in one of the rule areas or antenna and another area of the country. You don't have to consider that it's a permanent. Why you can never have children because in my situation we were unsure at that time and so I made a deposit the sperm bank and by doing that it gave us an option. I gave us a definite ability to know that we wouldn't have children. So we wouldn't have surprises but it also gave us that other option that we would be able to have children in the in the event. We changed our mind and I don't bothers me that people don't realize that there are such options that are available to them called and brought this up a lot of people don't realize it and then also some people at least in terms of that decision-making have to at least think through how they feel about depositing sperm in a sperm bank. And what are their what is a feelings related to artificial insemination if that's how you're talking about becoming pregnant? I think that's real that there are those concerns for some people they handle that and there are no problems, but other people I have to at least think through that a little bit more thoroughly what they really wanted to do in bed called in. Good morning. I just want a person really glad you're talkin about this issue on the radio. I just been very excited to hear it. I'm a single parent by choice. So I'm a sort of husband free parent adopt and my daughter and what I found a real problem and I want to ask about is getting support somehow that did a family is like a single parent family that that's a family too. We have a problems in our society thinking of not only that single parents are family, but that a couple alone is a family or that any form that is different from our normal way of thinking about family which is mother and father and two children is a family some people even don't believe that dual-career people are families because both people work. So there's I think whenever a person decides to to try a family form and I do mean family form because single parents is a Family Forum you deal with that one of the hardest forms of parenting of all because you're the only adult that can deal with the child's needs and that's that's a very hard kind of situation to be in but whenever you make a decision about doing that certainly one of the factors that goes into that decision is the fact that some people won't be supported it is you'd like them to be your hope that they would be as far as single parenting is going there are groups within the Twin Cities that told me deal with single parenting not just Parents Without Partners because that implies that once you had a partner, right, right, and I I want to deal with Steph doubt if I will have a partner because my crew such that I want to be able to be free to move. I know of several other women that are When your category right now that are either making the decision to adopt or have already did. Adopted and our parenting their child alone and also men men are deciding to adopt two. I think through the adoptive agency that the agency was with him. You dealt with an in terms of your adoption. They may be able to help you in terms of setting up some supportive group meeting with other parents who have adopted and not been married part of that. I would encourage any and all of you who have a special needs to approach your local family agency or to approach a private group who rotten and what's the need was made known. I think the the agency will respond. I know the person who's in charge of Family Life Education and and these kinds of groups are both therapy and education oriented at Minneapolis family and children's and I think he's very meaningful to Responding to the needs of the public and so and so is Burnsville family consultation Center and so are the other agencies Fairview Southdale. So I would encourage you to approach the agency with you what you feel most comfortable and tell them you have a need in this area needs an interesting and then approaching an agency and saying Hey listen to We need your help. I need your help. And if the people within the agency are not particular from particularly familiar with child free lifestyle, we have a core network of family professionals here in the Twin Cities and hopefully we can all call upon each other to get the kind of expertise and knowledge that we need about a certain area to help deal with those particular feelings and we're talkin about child-free Lifestyles and what it do what it do. Games and and how a couple or individuals decide whether or not they want to remain child-free. If you'd like to ask our guest this morning. Dr. Linda Bud from the University of Minnesota question about that you can do so by calling us at 2 to 1:15 in the Twin Cities. If you live outside the Twin Cities area, but in the state of Minnesota, you could call us toll-free at 1 800-652-9700 and there are colors waiting. Go ahead with your question, please we're listening for couples in which one of the partners prefers to remain childless and the other wants very much to have a child. Yes. I would suggest that in that case. That's an excellent time to see someone who can help you work through that the problems related to that decision. as I said, there are many many professionals up the the two people who work most closely with that and have been doing it is. Gilfillan it gentle college at University Minnesota and myself are both trained marriage and family therapist Council private, but most of most therapists that I know of their many people within my own Department who are in private practice and I'm sure could help you deal with that the resolution of that problem and as I said at the other agencies if you're comfortable with the agency, especially if you've done work with an agency that you like then I would just suggest that you approach that Agency on agency in your local area. Tucson teaches a sort of a day-long or turned a a sort of seminar that the that people can be glad you brought that up. And right now what she is doing she's just contracted with the National Organization of non-parents. On which there is a local Twin Cities chapter, by the way, and she will be training the National Organization of non-parents to within their chapters to do some Les kinds of groups that help deal with this decision making process using her commitment pressure and rationale skills, and she plans on going to Washington, which is there where their National offices are in training them in March. So hopefully it won't be another eight years referring back to our other color before we have some help even at some help at the Leigh level within the kind of organizations that are involved with the option of being childfree or not being child-free couples might ask each other and themselves in going through this whole process of determining whether or not they want to remain child-free or have kids. Are there are is there a are there some some questions that are good to ask? I don't believe there really any set questions that are good to ask it has a lot to do with a lot of other things besides just saying do I want children? And how do I feel about children? Am I comfortable with Children? What are the kinds of things I want to do with my life and how do children fit into that but it has also to do with this relationship Dynamic which is much harder to get at with very special set questions. And I'm not sure I can give set questions that will deal with that relationship aspect personal kind of decision the couple that I know who have gone through the decision to be or the decision to parent they may have ended up deciding to parents as well as not to parent have had so many different factors that are unique to themselves in the way they view the world and you need to their own relationship and what they want for their own relationship that I'm I'm A little uncomfortable with saying they're there for five set Christians that if you go through you can probably come to some resolution because I'm not sure there are but there are the scales which are much larger which we hope to make more available will take another phone call now, go ahead. We're listening for your question for the morning perks only choice and I'm thinking of wider implications of social policy such as the parents who have it isn't in the area of selfishness and also people who have parents that take a lot of responsibility for support not even Financial in our social security system tends to be built right now in each generation doing the Next Generation. So if this lifestyle becomes, you know quite widespread, Other countries have had some difficulty with it such as probably I'm taking of France balancing know if people like make me personal choices and they affect the whole society. I would agree with you wholeheartedly about that. It is has much broader implications than just a personal relationship decision and we've been talking about it in those terms, but certainly there are many many different factors involved with any large segment of a population doing something which is maybe against the Norms which have been the Norms in that population and we have to talk. Only in terms as you mentioned of Social Security in those kinds of things going to talk in terms of representation for child free people in terms of the the political. It's the Congress the Senate and how if if if can you represent on child-free interest and at the same time represent parenting interest as you probably are aware of the taxation sent the taxation policies in the United States don't exactly favor being childfree. Certainly there are deductions given for children, and that's some people's motivation for having children so that the brought the implications are much brighter and we have to think of those implications for legislation and how that affects how we are governed in this society today and Rather 7% or 10% of the population how much representation they could have in the in the governing process before 11, and we're going to take another call right now. Good morning. We're waiting for your question. That's what I'm wondering and maybe you can help me with some tickets to see what the research shows but maybe 10 years down the road from now when I'm past my childbearing age or safety. Anyhow, what is the likelihood that I may feel unfulfilled as a woman or that perhaps we may have regrets and although I know you've mentioned adoption as an alternative is not really a realistic one Center is a very small number of babies who are available for adoption and adoption agencies. Do not like to give young children to older parents. If they don't like more than 25 years between know they do the child and the parents. So I was going to do have any data on that or is there any way that I could know what my feelings are 10 years down. I have other child to parent experience. I wish I could tell you that if I could tell you that that would resolve a lot of people's fears on. It sounds like you've done quite a lot of checking into this and in the kinds of things you're saying about adoption agencies. I really don't know what your fears will be in 10 years. And certainly that's something you have to consider at 30. This is this is the prime time where that child free decision really gets to be a decision for a couple for a couple as you said, you can go up into the time you're 30 35 is really when they are the as we have the statistics on down syndrome start the infant son Down syndrome starts increasing but so 35 is it has traditionally been one maternity cut off, but we're getting data today showing that Some more recent studies that maybe it's not such a problem to have our is bigger problem. If we have traditionally thought to have children later on certainly there are certain precautions you can taken and medically there, you know, they're working with Ania sintesis and things to try to predict the fetuses state so that you can tell if the age has affected the fetus, but I Really can't help you in terms of telling you 10 years from now that we have a set of couples who are in their forties and they seem to be doing fine. Unfortunately, when we do a study of this nature and and this is a real problem, we began to explore an area of family living which is hard to begin with to explore to get couples or families to come in and talk about their own relationships is a difficult area. But what happens is when you're dealing with a phenomenon that is a decision making process. We don't attract those couples who have made the decision seemed to be happy. I'll be there in the society. So we don't know much about those couples who are in their forties and fifties my child free sample, although we have a few couples who are have been child-free for quite a while. We don't have many the predominant amount of our sample is in the twenties in the thirties just where you're at. So we are not even sure we'll be able to tell you at the end of the study what it looks like to be 40 and child-free what we suspect and we're we're turning our study to right now is not just looking at what it's like to be 40 and child-free but what it's like to be 45 and what we traditionally call in our field empty nest because in essence that is child-free in some ways, especially with this mobile Society in the fact that all of your children may live in to various parts of the country many many miles away from you. So we all know what that's like. Yeah, we're still exploring the beginning studies on child-free. We're done of people that they were even done college students. You know, what 18 19 and 20 years old saying a what do you think it's going to be like to be childfree? And are you going to be childfree now? I don't I don't have much faith in those studies actually predict, but I have a little bit better fate than ours when we involve both members of a couple and they're actually in that process but there don't seem to be too many studies that goes past this decision and talks about 10 years later 15 years later. We don't really know much about that what you're saying. It sounds like is that even though a couple could have a three or four five six children that by the time they're 50, they'll be childfree maybe a lot of similarities to being childfree and being empty nest and we're beginning to the summer. We collected an extra part of a sample to to put in with our childhood people that are Empty nest people to see if we could test some of these ideas about, you know, are there similarities there? Okay, let's do they have cohorts. Good morning. We're waiting for your question you breathe declarations. The first one is that unfortunately so far the nuclear family and the needs to breathe children is so strong in most people especially the Lesser erudite the population of a couple chooses the Travis lifestyle apart from the fact that they are accused of being selfish and many other things many people in the closest of friends Almost automatically start searching is she infertile. Is he important or what is wrong with them and quote? What is wrong is the first question. That is true. because your professor family science, I believe that it's important to stress them all so I'm a good old militant feminist and the Free calls to go to the gentleman crawling in who told about male sterilization and deposit into a sperm bank and I think it was a wonderful call and he must be a wonderful meal with the portents Eagle Powers because unfortunately again the attitude is a woman should take all the contraceptive measures a woman should be sterilized. But if a male is paralyzed or even just a vasectomy performed on him the fear is that he's losing his match always male Powers Realty in his whole characteristics of his gender and it's always a burden on the woman in the first place if they choose a childless Life by Lori East, Emile one Savor his wife and was again that was a brief mention about the single man man adopting children, and that is a wonderful. The matter of fact, you know, the terminology in our language fathering or mothering is so wrong because they're all sex and gender oriented instead of using the term nurturing. And again with a good old is Macho and mail is not supposed to be gentle and nurturing to a child. Although the characteristics are there but they are suppressed because of the prejudicial sex oriented attitude of society and they helped a little bit Society I believe is changing and it may help to it for the channel for couples to know that at least of the child-free couples. Some of the Chaffee couple Dino have set up kinds of support groups for one another and this is what this organization National Organization of non-parents is about. It's not just couples who are child-free is organization is composed of parents and single people that just believe that the idea about having a child should be a decision and it by making a decision it should be okay for those people who decide not to not to have child children and there is that support group out there for people who do go into that decision in the phone book. I am really not sure I could be would be more than willing to send out the national address. I'm more familiar with a national executive director than I am the local director. The national executive director is Carol Goldman, and I be more than willing if anyone was interested to send her address to just drop me a note at my office, which is in 201 North Hall at the University. I'd be willing to send Out to her dress so that she could smell your eyes you with the local chapters not only here in the Twin Cities. But if there are any in the other areas that you may be listening in its 6 minutes before 11, and we still have a number of callers waiting to ask question. So we're going to have another question right now. Good morning doctor, but is waiting for your question. Am I on now? Yes, you are. Good afternoon. Everybody is getting a birth control pill in 2 weeks. Now, we're not we're not even married if you're not married or something like that. Well, I'm not sure that that that's a question that from the medical profession. I I really am one question from another listener, please. Good morning. You're on the air. Yes, go ahead with your it was a remark made. I don't know whether that is familiar with the Sydney J Harris, It's in the Saint Paul Pioneer Press. He made an interesting it's a short time. So it was kind of a brief casual remark that he made and I was wondering what your feelings were on it to remark was to the effect that a childless couple thought tells more about the couple's parents than it does about the couple themselves. It might be interesting to make a study sometime as to. The relationship between a couple Zone thoughts of having children and their respective relationship to their own parents, by the way, and that we do have some data on what the relationship this is part of the overall study. As I said, this study is a fairly large daddy in their many components to it. It's not a case of them not loving kids. Let me give you a little insight into some of the things we have found about family of origin or the families we come from and how that affects the families that we could potentially create new human beings in we have found and it is not only in our study but in some of the other studies that have been done that typically child-free couples are more child-free couples tend to be older or only children and certainly that says something about Relationship that you would have not only with your parents, but with your siblings you could make all kinds of implications about older children having had the opportunity to parent already and they're for opting out of that opportunity later on in life feeling like they'd already completed that that demanded society and an only child having feelings about belonging an adult Society always being brought up in an adult Society or Covington fears if they themselves had somehow felt deprived of a childhood experience, but we have found that the relationship is is little different. We're just in the process of processing is Beto's I'm really can't speak on it to Surly but we have found at the relay. Kinship of a child-free couples back to their parents is different from the childhood couples and certainly that made you don't know if that's the cause of that kind of thing because certainly when you bring grandchildren into that relationship, it links the three generations in a different way than if you don't so we don't know yet whether it's cause of factor what the phenomena is, but we are beginning to process the state of what it what you felt like living was like when your parent was when you were a teenager at home with your parent when you were a child we're beginning to process some of that and hope to have some answers for you soon. Thanks very much for your phone call. The time is about a minute and a half before 11, and I'm afraid we're not going to be able to take any more phone calls. I want to thank you. Dr. Bud for being with us this morning. It's obvious from the number of calls or colors that are still waiting to ask questions that that a lot of people found this topic of interest and that question is just been brought in. Someone called in with the address for the National Organization for non-parents. So that people would not have to write me the director is Carol Goldman and her address is the National Organization for non-parents 3 North Liberty Street. And that's in Baltimore, Maryland. And the zip code is 21201. Would you like me to repeat that would you please okay Goldman? The organization is the National Organization for non-parents. The address is 3 North Liberty Street in Baltimore, Maryland. And the zip code is 21201. Linda bought at the University of Minnesota. Thanks for being with us. This morning of the time is coming up on 11th and voices in the wind follows over these listener-supported NPR stations.