anytime you talk about A specific short-term energy situation, you have to throw in a few caveats, but by and large the energy Outlook this winter is very favorable in Minnesota how we have an inventory of middle-level distillates around three and a half million barrels. This is where we ought to be at the start of the winter season. We monitor this on a weekly basis so that we will know if things start getting in a position where we have some possibilities emergencies in addition of very high portion a good portion of that is number 1 fuel oil which is the fuel oil that is most acutely affected because it has a higher flow level and its use during very cold weather outlook in terms of supplies is quite favorable. There are some things that could cause some problems. The department of energy is held a hearing last week on the possible change. Of the priority classification for Coke and Ashland refineries from from Priority One for the receipt of Canadian crude oil to priority to if you were to make that decision, they would not get as much crude oil in there could be some problems in the middle part of the winter. If we had extremely cold weather. We could have some problems if people didn't continue to conservice they have we could have some problems but by and large the Outlook is quite favorable. Minnesota has what it calls an energy plan that involves six points. The first is to try to secure adequate supplies of petroleum products. This involves efforts to see that the pipeline connections are made in Rapid enough order so that we can deal with the problem of Canadian curtailment of progress. There seems to be fairly good with the new pipeline from Mason City to the Saint Paul Area. The longer-term effort is to see if we can cooperate with Canadian and US authorities in the private companies that are involved in developing a West Coast oil Port that would make it possible to bring Alaskan and Indonesian and Pacific area crude oil into this area. We are working with both the Canadian and US Authorities on that project. There's some progress but that effort is very much in flux. Last time the second goal is to develop adequate supplies of natural gas here. We are working in cooperation with the natural gas pipelines and the gas Distributors to see that the Minnesota is as well off as other states that depend upon Northern Natural systems in terms of the priority is given to our Gas users. We are also supporting the efforts to build a natural gas pipeline across Canada rather than across Alaska that would bring North Slope Alaska gas in this part of the country of third area is to encourage the development of a coal use plan for the state. Where as we're on the long end of the pipeline for natural gas and petroleum. We're fairly close to the coal in the Northern Plains area and here we have an interagency effort to deal with the transport. Jason the location of call transcript and Facilities the air quality issues that are involved to come up with a plan that will increase the capacity to use cold in Minnesota. This is placing strong emphasis upon such things as a fluidized beds and a low BTU gas vacation, which are methods of using coal that are not nearly as polluting as they traditional systems. The third area deals with alternative energy sources here. Minnesota has quite attractive solar wind a biomass energy potential and here were trying to identify these more specifically said first second third priorities and move ahead in this area as rapidly as possible 4th area deals with a V area deals with electricity here. We are trying to achieve the greatest possible efficiency in the generation Transmission in in Juice of electricity and they are there is some progress a particularly as we are looking at such things as As District heating systems that would provide a heat generation with electricity VI area deals with conservation conservation clearly is the quickest fastest cleanest way of getting energy and there we have a fairly comprehensive energy program that we have supported with the legislation will be having additional legislative recommendations. If I were going to give a speech, I think I have just done. Okay. Yeah Jenna. I think a couple of recent news stories at least one reflected to me. What I thought was a A declining interest in the governor's office on energy matters relative to the next session and a new legislative package on energy turned away from looking at all of the things. I understand we're presented to the governor's office by your people and others dealing an energy in the in the government and sort of came down to where the governor said. He's interested in retrofitting existing homes through to a coach program and a point-of-sale program, which is one piece and I think a lot of others see that is maybe an adequate and maybe you could tell us what you think are your hand full of whatever legislative priorities for energy in the state now and maybe a second for that question is can we wait till 1979 or should we be doing more than looks like we might be doing in 78? The energy agency recommended three energy bills to the governor's office 01 was a solar energy package the dealt with son writes considering solar in Planning and Zoning decisions and the property tax exemption for solar equipment than tax and sent incentives for Solar Development the second one dealt with the series of conservation measures the most significant of which was requiring retrofit at point of sale on existing homes and the dwellings. This is extremely important because although we have the building code on new construction some 60% of all the building that the stands in the year 2000 is already constructed. So we need to get some method of getting into those existing structures and I think that this is a good way to do it the third area Dealt with the emergency Powers we found I think during the last emergency although we got to that very well. And I think we would if we had problems again this year that there was some tightening up in the clarification that it would be useful to have in terms of the Emergency Management capability of these the governor indicated that because of the very short session. He should give priority to one measure and that the retrofit a point-of-sale was the measure that he felt he wanted to give his priority to now in addition. We have due to the legislative mandate to the agency develop studies of these different solar carry is I personally I am disappointed that we are not going ahead in this session apparently in the Solar area. There may be some possibilities of a scale. Package of solar legislation that would include include some of the sun rights and other matters that don't have physical implications that might be moved to head to the session over if we're just going to go for one bill. I think the retrofit at point of sale is an extremely important measure and I'm very pleased that the governor has indicated his support for that difficult and important legislative recommendation. The League of Women Voters has been discussing energy this past fall in one of the big topics that we were discussing is the role of the State versus the role of the Federal Government and specifically referring back to Mike's question here. I to read that Governor per page said that the federal agencies should take the lead in solar energy and let the states concentrate on a conservation. I'd like to have a little bit broader question. Just what can the states do or what should the state's be doing in solar but also Pete agricultural waste in Wind alternative energy sources that the federal government is not doing are conjunction with it. What is the the relative roles of the of the two levels of government? If you look at Alternative Energy Systems, there's a great deal of variation from state to state clearly solar energy for space. Heating is a very important matter in Minnesota not so important than Arizona solar for water. Heating is more important than Florida and Arizona Title energy is more important in Hawaii and on and on so it's essential. I think that a State have a plan for the rapid development of its unique Alternative Energy Systems, and this can best be done on a state-by-state basis. And in order to understand what can be done there. I think it's essential that a state analyze its alternative energy potential currently. We have such an analysis going on in Minnesota in eight different Alternative Energy areas, and then identify First Priority second priority short-term mid-term long-term. Methods of developing goes Alternative Energy System. Some things can be done fairly quickly. Some things are going to take more time. In other words a state needs to have a detail specifics comprehensive plan for developing its unique Alternative Energy Mix of systems. And that's the thing that the state ought to do and other activities can't go along very well until that has been accomplished. Then you look at strategies for this implementation. You look at property tax incentives. You look at the state Grant programs, you look at the demonstration projects, you look at the information and education programs and I think in all of those areas with the exception of incentives and property tax exemptions, Minnesota has acquired a uniquely varied and Rich package of methods of stimulating Alternative Energy DeVille developments, are there certain things? I'm at the national level the tax credit the program in the president's program. I think I ought to provide quite a strong stimulus for the development of solar energy incentives and some of these broad-scale fiscal measures. I think I prep best on at the national level. Get enough rope. I like to address myself to the problems of the business people. Who are facing up or are going to soon have to face up to many of the conversions from present energy? house supplies oil and gas which are diminishing and so on and ask John what is being done to isolate the Items technically for dissemination to the small businessman and people who don't have the technical staff. Do do their own technical Research into changes of technology for processing as we look at what we ought to be doing in the energy area the state Energy Office concentrated during first to use that I was there instead of capacity-building at the state level trying to understand the data get our heads around the systems of supply and deal with those six areas that I indicated earlier. I think we have by and large got that assignment under our belt. So there's still some rounding off that needs to be done. I think the next direction to take is to look at energy in a community a system approach just as each state has different each Community is different and each communities energy resources a very great deal there on different Pipelines. They have different the energy requirements and terms of the energy intensity of their Industries. Their densities are different in terms of their load areas and I think Jack and that the question of what can be done to help the business user that the best answer that I can give to that is that that business user ought to be seen in the context within a community of the institutional users the other large the large industrial users are the apartment to the man and the small residential developments as well. And there ought to be developed within each of Minnesota's communities a community energy plan that looks at those demand requirements that look at Supply requirements and comes up with a unique plan for meeting the energy requirements of that area and that the ones that planning process Is underway, then it's going to be possible to fit the requirements of individual business operations into a cohesive plan for the future which would provide some greater reliability. I'm somewhat pessimistic in terms of future natural gas supplies over the Long Haul. I see District heating the technology of which I saw when I was in Sweden last month is a very good system for meeting space heating requirements. So where that natural gas isn't available, but it has to be tied to the specific load requirements of a of an urban complex and that requires a community energy plan. I think beyond that then there are certain things that can be given to a small business of operation in terms of energy conservation practices as well. And I would hope that as part of this Outreach that I mentioned. Earlier, the energy agency would be able to Foster some kind of Technology assistance for small business customers. I think some of the funding that's coming about at the national level will provide the capability for the agency to do more of this in the future. And stood around with a lot of other people and in fact, he got to be a club or group when you're trying to find your house in the City of Minneapolis. When you finally do find there's a cheer from everyone that goes up because it's really a difficult thing to do in a taxi driver in our group and he was very helpful. And I don't know maybe that's a and other use for taxi drivers or something about helping people find their house but it's it just struck me that there ought to be some better way to tell people once he found my house or our house. He said he's so proud of finding it and really very little Help to me. I mean the rest of people in the group sort of said she looks good. Now there is your chimney in and it wasn't really very helpful in it. We also live in an area where there a lot of Institutions. There is Minnehaha Academy and Michael Dowling school and danebo old people's home and all those places look to me as he was going up and down River Road. Like they really have terrible heat losses and yet I I don't think there's any way of contacting those institutions. I just wondered if you through the utility companies or if there's any better way of doing it. The infrared flyover is an experiment to see to what extent the data that's collected from that flyover is an accurate reflection of the actual heat loss through the roof and part of the research project involves measuring the darkness of those roofs with the actual temperature measurements to see what kind of consistency we obtain. It also is a useful method of developing public interest in the amount of energy being lost to the roof. We hope to in most instances believe we have type is information centers in to information on what kinds of loans and grants are available for retrofit of insulation and storm windows. What have you I think at this stage of the game, we know that it is fairly successful in terms of getting public interest. I think there are also some things that we can learn from it in terms of the design of conservation program such as we found that schools are by and large very poor and her to you in conserver. So probably this is due to the greater ease and developing operations and maintenance funds for schools than Capital funds. So there have been some Corners that have been caught in terms of the construction of schools in an energy efficient manner and this kind of shows up because of the waste that's a parent from the roofs of schools. So we have focused our efforts at retrofit in that area and making a major effort to show School superintendents and school boards what can be done to increase the Energy Efficiency of their structures. Similarly, we found that Energy new construction in areas that have an energy building code enforced have been much more conserving than areas outside municipalities that didn't have an energy-efficient the code enforcer there have been some of these kinds of informations that we've learned. I think in order to get more reliable and useful information to the average homeowner. We have to follow this up by some other methods one of the plans that will working with the Public Service Commission and the utilities on is called project conserve where each homeowner is given a questionnaire to fill out the on some of the basic things in terms of fuel type and type of construction and energy requirements of the home and then based upon this and comparing it through a computer system with other Songs of similar design we can come up with a recommended levels of insulation and other kinds of practices that might be used. I think this may be more helpful than the flyover at cell. I think eventually we're going to have to figure out some way to get into that the local community Through block club or through some kind of organization like that in order to provide information. That's as helpful as we would like for it to be. Oh we have done some verification on the infrared flyover information and it shows that in rough fashion. The information is accurate in most cases. Now, there are some things that you have to be very careful of you can't fly over when there's any snow if a person does a very has set the thermostat very high, then there will be more heat coming through even an insulated roof than would otherwise be the case and that would show There are some different surfaces that have some effect on how it shows up on the on the infrared fly work. So one of the things we're trying to do is find out what these variables and somewhat inaccuracies are due to and see if there's some way to debug the pictures so that we can come up with a more verify infrared scam in terms of the retrofit of public buildings and commercial buildings. I think there's something of a separation there as far as public buildings are concerned. There are federal funds that are going to be available for the retrofit of some public buildings Municipal and County buildings and also some funds for schools and hospitals in the energy agency is developing a rather massive database of all the public Some buildings in the state where the computer analysis fill out by the superintendent of the building indicating. What kind of heat loss is occurring in the shape the building what have you from that we hope to be able to pull out those that are the most of optimal candidates for retrofit and then do more detailed engineering studies using the available federal funds on a priority level so that the money is spent where it oughta be spent with the greatest return as far as commercial buildings such as hotels there is no a Federal Direct funding that would be available there. There may be some tax credit Provisions for those kinds of Investments that would encourage such action. One thing we will be doing is trying to make the information as broadcast as possible. And what kind of federal tax incentives are available once Congress finally asked. these kinds of actions John you you're probably aware of I think I think you already have some work that that we have some others are doing at the council looking at at Prospect of growth and numbers of new power plants in the state of Minnesota or the next 20-25 years and some people that I've been working with him some others seen some real concerns in the area about our ability to absorb the economic implications of them not to mention the environmental and some of the social or public apis opposition implications. And also whether or not we can take on these large tassel building these kinds of plants in a relatively short. Of time some forecasting 14217 new major plans by the end of the century in the street where we have difficulty building one in more often than every 3 or 4 years sometimes I agree with this to relax or see the lack of addressing is question. And I think I have tribute to the fact that we we persist in sort of part and parcel and energy decisions and planning and state government and seems me one of the original intentions. I thought of the energy agency was to become sort of the focus for using energy as a focus of a form of kind of planning and looking ahead and making sure there's a better level of consistency at the Department of Economic Development in new businesses the DNR in the PCA and others but instead I see it still treating energy as an environmental issue and what agency is sort of a nothing issue in the economics kinds of ajin season, how can we put some of this together and I I see you as a is a is a bright person in state government has some good ideas. Maybe you could just talk about this how we how can we focus energy decision-making better and government? I'd like to take your question and divided the into two parts. One part is how much electricity are we going to have to have by the year 2000 how many power plants and I think some of the figures that have been used in that area are far greater than would be reasonably expected to be required. If we see any comment on this has to be made with a number of caveats because there could be a breakthrough in the development of sight photovoltaics that would make electricity much more attractive than it is now. Are there may be factors on the other side in terms of other energy sources that come into line much more rapidly than anticipated. But buying these kinds of currently not foreseen events. Let me give you some numbers that seem to me to be more reasonable. If you look at the amount of generating capacity that already has received certificates of need you get to a figure of 11400 megawatts of generating capacity by the year 1986. Now there will be some retirements during between now and then and the year 2000 there also will be some increased. Use of power in Minnesota generated from other sources. We have the CPA UPA transmission line the square Butte transmission line and power exchanges with Manitoba Hydro. So there will be an increase in the amount of power brought into the state. If you take that off except you end up by the year mid-1980s with something in the range of 12000 megawatts of capacity either generated here or brought into the state and the latest of projections that we an energy agency have developed and make it look like that by the year 2000 the requirements for the state may be in the range of 16000 to 20,000 and this is a far lower than some of the you figures that have been used and Pizza at the 16000 level than you're looking at the four thousand megawatt to plants and I think that that's a figure that might be you arrived at with good conservation and good use of of Alternative Energy Systems. But if that were the case, then you would be looking at if you're talking about the 1000 plants for instead of the figure of 13 or 17. I think we ought to do everything we can to accomplish a reduction in that growth curve and the use of Alternative Energy Systems even so I don't think that the that reduced level of anticipated demand is anything like the horror story of power plants in transmission lines that sometimes as described now the second question is what you working with the other State agencies and departments to get a better handle on this question of increased energy growth. I think that's something that I've given some thought to that some people in the governor's office have given some thought to Peter Vanderpool Estate Planning and others on the Environmental Quality board. We are trying to decide just what kind of form or procedure are to be used to try to identify some of these questions very difficult issue here is that we're not talking only about energy consumption were talking about the population size were talking about the the extent to which we have planning in terms of urban developments were talking about the level of economic activity energy. So infuses everything that we do that you can't talk about the energy requirements of the future very successfully without looking at the kind of Economic and political and social social Society. You want to have I don't think that a bureaucrat or a group of bureaucrats. I'll just try to answer that kind of question, but I think it ought to be possible for us to describe some of the options and some of the implications of some of the day-to-day policy decisions that are made so that the public and the the elected officials Have a better understanding of some of the options that are involved. I said I apologize for what was probably very poorly ask questions. And I think that your last part of the answer. Two more what I was interested in Mike my concern is and I won't ask you for another answer is it it just doesn't get everybody says we got to integrate it somehow we have to systematically look at these things because energy is sort of it's either the cart before the horse or vice versa and not quite sure which sometimes and and we tend to focus on energy. Is it raining in itself instead of on maybe some of the real issues which of the land use population settlement some of those kinds of things and so that's what he what I was trying to get out. So I think you I'd like to just asked a very specific question along that line for information. What is the role of the energy agency in the certificate-of-need process the legislation creating the energy agency also created a requirement that any large energy facilities that were constructed in Minnesota had to obtain a certificate of need from the drug. Are the energy agency? So when a large facility a transmission line of power plant to call Trans shipment facility pipeline Refinery a major expansion any of these facilities are being considered the first step in the regulatory process is for the proposer to file an application for a certificate of need with the energy agency at that point than the staff of the energy agency decides whether it wants to be a party to that case or not in most instances it has so if it comes to party the applicant becomes the party and anyone else who is interested in becoming actively involved in the determination of that decision becomes a party the legislation says that the state agencies that are affected by the decision all to become a party as well and this involves some impart my response to your question thus far they participate Can buy other state agencies has been very minimal and I would think that one of the methods for getting the involvement of all of the affected State departments and agencies involved in these decisions would be a much more active participation by other state agencies. Then there is a hearing process where the applicant has the responsibility of proving that the facility is needed at the energy agency staff of participates and indicates what its projections of the need for the particular energy source of being considered what that need is and in some instances not infrequently disagrees with the projections of the applicant as a result of his hearing process. The hearing examiner makes a recommendation to me as director of the agency. I review the entire record of the proceeding and decide whether the facility should be granted or not. We have ongoing studies John on some of the things that maybe some of the people here are either with as aware of as some of us who are involved. Would you like to I make a comment on some of the studies on the relationship of some of the biomass and other items that you're working on at this point as I mentioned earlier earlier in the Alternative Energy eight different the task forces working and these look at such things as what's the potential in Minnesota of solar active systems. What's the potential for solar passive systems using the sun through methods that don't require a a fan system by the architectural design of the building. Then we have also worked at Timber system that is looking at the potential for Timber and biomass that is other Troll residues as well as wind and the study also of Pete and also of urban waste now there are Potentials in each one of these areas. Let me just took off with Jack some of the ones that I find most interesting from time to time discussion is given to to Cattails Cattails is a very attractive potential energy resource because it grows very fast. It has a wait about three times. The weight of corn per acre much of that weight is in a starchy root that could be converted into methanol fairly easily. I think that I see much more potential for biomass in these kinds of areas that don't compete with an existing food proper then in such areas as diesel hauler gasohol where you would use corn as they source for your energy source. Also, there are such things in terms of tree plantations for very fast-growing poplars would be raised just for the Firebird. Content of the wood and in those trees and their studies it indicating that about a a 6 Mile Square Forrest might provide enough to the generator a modest-sized power plant. And this I think is a potential in the Alternative Energy area as well using Urban waste and agricultural waste. I think also have a high potential. So among the Alternative Energy Systems. I think these are the more attractive I should mention in terms of the more attractive Pete Tazewell, Minnesota has half of the peed in the lower 48 states has a significant energy resource. It's btu content is fairly close to that of lignite coal. The total u.s. Applies to feet are fairly similar to that of lignite coal Peter's used in some countries, Finland, Ireland and Russia and the possibility of using some of those My methods of Simply burning feet directly are being investigated also being investigated as a possibility of the gas fication of of feet feet also is a significant resource to Minnesota. You can look at some kind of interesting possibilities what you might mind the Pete areas and then go into those areas and harvest of cattails or or a fast-growing poplars these kinds of energy plans. I think will become a very significant in Minnesota Energy Future seems like with the coming of cold winter again, we were saying you're more concerned from low and fixed income and senior citizen people relativity utility bills in in is is there anything similar to last year in the offing from the federal government terms of money or any similar kind of state state program to augment a federal program or any any effort on going right now to ask to assess the the scope of the seniors and in other lower-income people inability to pee energy Bills going through fuel oil natural gas electricity One of the very serious energy problems in Minnesota. I think is the impact of rising Energy prices on low and moderate-income people these people pay a much higher percentage of their income for energy than modest and higher-income people. They also live in houses that are frequently the poorest insulated a particularly if they live in rental property where neither the landlord nor the renter has much incentive to provide any kind of insulation and all these problems and these are true generally in Minnesota where we have a very cold climate there aggravated here. So I think one of the serious sociological problems that we have in Minnesota is the impact of rising energy costs on low and moderate-income people. How this involves if it's going to be their costs are going to be under written a very significant amount of money. It's a problem that I feel I ought to be dealt with by the national government rather than the state government primarily there has been legislation that would provide funding for help for low-income people to pay their energy bills. It's part of a a bill that was in conference committee and last week went back from conference committee a to its parent committee. So whether that will come out of Congress to provide relief for this session or not is now up in the air as a representative of the governor on the energy conservation committee the national Governors conference. We have supported that Federal legislation and I continue to do so I'm back to the question of the state and federal government and I don't really know quite how to pose this question, but it's really how dependent are we and I don't really like that quite like that word. But can we go ahead with its plan regardless of what happens to the National energy plan or what the federal government does how dependent are intertwined are the two sometimes the observation is made that the state really can't do very much in the energy area that the problems in the energy area are primarily National problems and should be addressed by the federal government. I disagree with that point of view very strongly. I think particularly in the energy conservation area. We are looking at things that are primarily State responsibilities. We're looking at building code questions were looking at traffic control questions were looking at Highway Transportation facilities. We're looking at the design of the utility rates. We're looking at land use decisions were looking at education and information activities. I saw those Areas, that most critically impact energy conservation programs are areas that traditionally have been the responsibilities of the states. So answer the question, I think the states can do a great deal. In fact, I think it's the responsibilities of the states to do a great deal in the energy conservation area. When you look at energy Supply problems coal natural gas petroleum some of these areas they're primarily National in scope you looking at Alternative Energy Systems. I think they're because of the uniqueness of each States programs that that's more level of State responsibilities. One of the things that I have been working on that I might mention briefly is an effort to get some national legislation that would develop the planning and program management levels that we have in Minnesota and other states as well this grew out of the White House Governor's conference late last summer wear one of the objectives of that the conference was to come up with some method of consolidating the various State energy conservation Grant programs, as a result of that a task force was created made up of a federal and state people as staff chairman of the energy conservation committed the national Governors conference. I served as chairman of that task force. We drafted legislation called the sea Sam comprehensive State Energy Management program legislation that dr. Schlessinger has has given his support to and so has the national Governors conference this would provide Grant. Funds to states to develop a comprehensive conservation information education research of forecasting data collection Emergency Management types of programs. I see this as being a very important compliment to what the has happened at the national level to the creation of the Department of energy of the states need to have this kind of energy planning and program management capability if they're going to be able to do their share and dealing with our energy problems. It looks to me like the electric energy is probably the alternative to many of our processing problems. When we lose our natural gas for melting of metal Francis in The Foundry business that I'm in. I don't see much alternative oil is going to be in short supply natural gas will be limited or in short supply electric energy is probably the alternative that I see. We got you end up in addressing this kind of problem. So we don't get ourselves involved in the what I would term your rational approach that some people are making toward power lines when we have to recognize the benefits of people. And their well-being as well as the other aspects of what inconvenience people are involved on the transmission lines one thing or another. I don't know what is being done at this point. These issues have been brought to the foreground and I'd like to know just where we should go and maybe what we can do to help in that area in the discussion here. I think if you would look at some of the controversies that we've had in the electricity area in, Minnesota. And the there certain things you can say about them probably the people who have been most Avid in their protests are not necessarily the expressing the expression of the will of the majority. I'm sure there are many people who see the electricity is more needed and that some of these decisions are difficult to make if it would are not ready to go to the barricades on this question. On the other hand, I think they're also a great many people who are a sympathetic to the concerns that have been expressed about the future that would have won criss-crossing Maze of the transmission lines and the Specter of more and more power plants as well. And that in the sense these people who are protesting most vigorously about these electric facilities are reflecting the concerns of people who are also worried but not as focal the way I would hope we could deal with this is to make it a requirement. More forceful than we have in the past on the proposers of energy facilities. And I think on the energy agency has the monitor of need that the wind power plants and transmission lines are proposed that there be a positive showing that everything has been done that cop possibly can be done through conservation to reduce the demand in the future to keep that requirement as low as possible so that when you're building a transmission line or when you're building a power plant you have as much as Shirin says it's possible to obtain that all the fat and all the inefficiency has been taken out of the electricity demand at that plant transmission line is designed to me. I think if you had that kind of positive showing there will be a number of things that would happen one is the demand for additional facilities would be somewhat reduced. Another thing I think is that those who are concerned about the increased energy facilities would be in a better position to be shown that the facilities actually are needed. And then the third thing is you would get the Builders of transmission lines and power plants giving much of their attention to what can be done to use those energy requirements efficiently and give that as a consideration more weight than they have given it in the past. So I would see it as part of the answer to this problem making a more forceful requirement for conservation efforts on the power plant industry. Another part of the answer I think is looking at some decentralized facilities on the district heating. I have mentioned already, LOL what the district heating involves is Taking a quite hot water the swedes use 120 degrees Centigrade. It's under some pressure so that it doesn't boil and then it follows through pipes that are insulated from the plant to the district that is served. Then within each structure be at the apartment commercial or residential there is a heat exchange unit and the hot water coming in from the district heating system goes to that heat exchange unit. There's a separate system that provides could be either hot water or air as the heating medium for the for the building and this heating a system is somewhat similar to a sewage or water or natural gas system. It's a system of pipes that serves a district the efficiencies of these units are are quite high in the range of 80 even some clothes. 90% and some of the Swedish communities and one of the big questions here is what kind of densities do you have to have in order to make those systems pay for themselves? I think that the Swedish communities are much more dense and terms of their the larger Apartments you are free is sync single-family residences better use of urban space and one of the study's that's involved is trying to see what kind of weather is something that is feasible. There is also feasible here one of the attractive features of a district heating system in Minnesota would be that you could use coal and particular possibility in the future of using fluidized beds or something like that or low BTU gas which would be less polluting way of using coal particular volume. I thought you was a low BTU gas for the district heating plant and also use some of that for some of the industrial processes that require higher temperature energy. And also if you had something like that it would be fairly easy to change the boiler from using coal or build the boiler in the first place. So it could use cold or could use Timbre residue are some other biomass energy resource. So provides a considerable bottle of a flexibility in terms of fuel source, as well as the meeting they space heating requirements and these are so go back pressure units that use the heat that would be generated by a power plant if they are converted to back pressure systems, their electric generation capacity is a sacrifice some hot something in the order of 35% of the energy in the cold or flu. For electricity to undo something like 30% but by using that hot water that ice what otherwise would be discharged as a pollutant you can get the efficiency the whole system up in the 80 90% range as District heating becomes adapted to supplying the energy space heating requirements in areas that are cut off from natural gas after you get a certain capacity there. I think the code generation that using of the same plant to generate electricity as well as to provide space heating becomes attractive economically and this would mean that you would get some decentralisation of your power plant facilities into the communities that are served and I think that that would reduce some of the hostility towards these large projects as well so icy cold generation and District Heat And the more vigorous effort and conservation as means of of meeting the electricity requirements in the future in a way that I hope would have better a public acceptance. At this point I'd like to turn it open to questions in the audience. The question is are there any feasible alternatives to overhead transmission lines one of these systems that is used sometimes is underground transmission lines. There is a good deal of research in this area. Now in the past the large voltage underground transmission lines are very expensive a much more several times a 10 to 15 times more expensive than overhead transmission lines because they have to have a cooling oil jacket around the transmission line itself. There has been Recent research towards the use of a simpler underground transmission lines with a plastic insulator and a higher voltages up around I think 115 KV is the largest that has been used on an experimental basis if some of these systems are developed Improve be successful. There may be some Headway for somewhat to the lower voltages transmission lines. And that's something that we're interested in their following and if you had some kind of decentralization of facility smaller plants than one of their kind of pecan and then you would be using some of the smaller lines of one of the things that I think we need to look at is what kind of power plans what kind of location of power facilities what kind of transmission possibilities with each of these options.