Our program today I suppose is in keeping with the weather of the week. So far the first taste of winter and many of us are beginning to think more seriously than ever before about those Rising fuel bills that will be facing and their program is on energy energy conservation specifically President Carter spoke to the American people again this week on the subject of energy. He told us that despite our attempts at conservation energy consumption continues to rise in the last 10 years.Although all countries could of course be more efficient. We are the worst offender. That's a great price rise in 1973. The Japanese have cut their oil imports. The Germans the French the British Italians have all cut their All Imports. Meanwhile, although we have large petroleum supplies of our own and most of them don't we in the United States have increased our Imports more than 40% The problem is come upon us suddenly 10 years ago. And for I know it was cheap. We imported just two and a half million barrels of oil a day about 20% of what we used. By 1972 we were importing about 30% this year when frying oil is very expensive. We're importing on a 9 million barrels-a-day almost one-half of all the oil we use President Carter is he spoke to the American people earlier this week the energy conservation business is booming sales of Home insulation Caulking and weather-stripping are setting records sales of devices for using alternate forms of energy such as wood stoves and heat Returns on fireplaces are setting records to whatever the shape of the energy legislation did Congress passes in the president signs. It seems clear. The conservation will be a Cornerstone ever since the OPEC oil embargo those interested in touring interested in energy matters have been telling us to conserve especially in our cars and in our home but energy conservation in the home, at least at first cost money that must come out of our pockets weather stripping and caulking a relatively inexpensive foremost. Wall and ceiling insulation replacing furnace has windows and doors cost me enough money to strain most budgets. Today. We're going to look at ways that homeowners can conserve energy and perhaps get help paying for the conservation. Our guests are Dorothy hose of Minnesota Energy agency and Barb weinshanker who is director of the center for local self-reliance in Minneapolis will have a chance to ask questions of them in a few minutes about energy conservation an existing home in st. Paul is being refurbished as a demonstration of how energy conservation techniques can be used. The home is called Ouroboros East I visited with Project Director Annette Hoffman about a basic conservation method insulation of walls and ceilings with form cellulose or fiberglass and whether or not he recommend doing any of those prophecies yourself as far as phone is the only people that can do it right now are the contractors the reason being that it it does take a little bit of training to know how to mix the two chemicals that go together. The Machinery is quite expensive. It runs about $80,000. If you've got a spare 80,000 to buy the machine fine, look for a good contractor. Look for look for when it's got a good reputation when they would preferably take an infrared photo of the house before and after before so that he knows where the voidz are he knows where he's got to fill and after and I'd say a good time after 6 months or so. So you find out where any settling is occurred. Any boys are still he can top that up as far as cellulose fiber is concern a contractor can blow that in or even the homeowner can if he's ambitious enough to climb up in the letter cut a small hole in wall. The machines are rentable through a number of lumber yard towards I believe offers the machine if you buy the insulation and almost anyone with about five minutes of training can use the machines very effectively. Fiberglass, of course requires the walls be taken apart to get it in however up in the attic area where it's not used you can roll that in yourself just met her unrolling it from the bundles and rolling and enjoy stops. And then we recommend rolling more insulation across the Joyce because the Joyce themselves act as conductors of of called so we put the most of our insulation and if I would have start insulating my home, I would go in the attic and do that first if I've got insulation up there. I use the same pipe that's already up there and I saw if I've got fiberglass I go put more fire glass and if I've got cellulose fiber or mineral. Well, I use more mineral wells or more a cellulose fiber, but that's something I can do myself in a Saturday afternoon and material cost is relatively low the second aspect I'd probably hit would go around my windows and doors do the weather stripping do the caulking tube of caulking cost a dollar thirty-nine for good stuff really incredibly poor stuff is $0.59 of to weather stripping on window can be done for as little as $2 a window. Tires $13 a window for the real real high grade materials the $2 weather stripping if put in right is as good as a $13 weather stripping and one we're talking about $2 weather stripping is that the felt stripping that's a combination of using felt stripping and Lee vinyl strapping we use the vinyl on the bottom part of the stash. So I'm going to stash does meet down it has a nice vinyl cushion to sit on that gives us a good a good seal. The Fel stripping is fit in between the Sash and the frame itself is Preston the place but it does require that you take the stops out to put it in with this a good job in some areas of the Cities right now. It's impossible to get insulation. If you walk into certain areas and ask for insulation and fiberglass. They said we haven't had any for 3 weeks and we don't know when we getting more cellulose fiber is a lot more readily available. However, if you've got fiberglass in your attic don't put cellulose on top of it, it's too heavy of a weighted down the styrofoam, which is a good insulation and you can use it on a Very basic is readily available is good supply of that. The cost is stabilized. The cost factor of insulation has stabilized out. It's just that it's the man is so high that they can keep up the supply net Hoffman who is director of the Ouroboros East project on Laurel Avenue in St. Paul Dorothy hose of the Minnesota Energy agency spends a lot of time talking to people on the phone answering questions about energy and we're not going to give her a holiday today in a minute. We'll give out phone numbers and you can call to ask questions of Dorothy and our other guest Barb weinshanker Dorothy what's happened in the past year to the price of materials for energy conservation, especially in home insulation. Will all of the materials have gone up in price, especially the blown in fiberglass fiberglass Batts and the cellulose. There's also been a car spawning increase in fuel prices. So the paybacks are still there on the investment in the and insulation but certainly because of the shortage of some materials the market is getting Tighter and there have been some price increases does that mean then that the basic model that we've heard so much about Asher it cost a lot of money to insulate now, but your investment will repay itself in a year or a few years that still basically holding true. Do you think increases and the number of cold weather days in the back? I think we still show even with the new prices good payback son investment in both wall and ceiling insulation for local self-reliance advises Community energy conservation among other topics, and we have established that a lot of people out there are buying a lot of energy conservation materials Weatherby insulation or other stuff. Are there many people Barb Who You Are We're up. We're unable to conserve because they simply can't afford the materials located in South Minneapolis, which is really has been identified as one of the target areas in the Inner City of Minneapolis. Lot of low-income residents live in our neighborhood senior citizens living on $246 a month being faced with $120 a month utility bill simply cannot afford to take those monies and put it into insulation and other weatherstripping materials to conserve energy. It's more of a rule in our community than the exception constantly are we're getting calls for financial assistance for energy conservation materials senior citizens are being forced to sell their homes or do without In the moment, I want to get back to that point you just raised about how you refer people to get help with Herbie grant money or loans or other things before the moment. I want to talk about something that net Hoffman referred to in that is alternatives for conservation. We all know about the techniques of insulating walls with fiberglass which cost a fair amount of money more money than ever before using cellular hiring a contractor to use phone is are all well-known. The utility companies are advertising them prominent like what are some techniques that people can use and perhaps save a little money on placed in the initial cost. Well, there's a lot of range of things that people can do they can start right out with lowering. The thermostat doesn't cost them any money there simple things like opening up drapes on the south side of their house. That's something else that doesn't cost money keeping the registers in there. And they're heating system cleaner the radiators clean these kinds of things increase the efficiency of the heating system beyond that. Of course, there's the investment that the things that require investment like insulation weather stripping and Caulking and then there's things beyond that I think once a person has a very tight home. They can look at putting in Alternative Energy Systems phone or something to supplement their heating system that that's cheaper like would solar collectors or whatever but the first steps have to really be those Energy Management things that don't cost anything and then those investments in tightening up your home the grants and Loans are available to people Barb when a person calls your office and says, I just don't have the money to pay for the fiberglass that I know that I need or the cellulose that I know I should have. What do you tell them to do? Okay, there are a couple of programs at least in Hennepin County that are offered financial assistance for energy conservation. What is the program that the center operates which is only in the Powderhorn planning district where low-income homeowners who only live in their home or eligible to receive a grant up to $500 to do some energy conservation measures to their home how to program being run by the Minneapolis Community Action Agency, which is not in progress yet as winter approaches for that. We're putting people on waiting list Minneapolis Housing Authority has low interest loans that people can take out for energy conservation Minneapolis Housing Authority grant program, which includes energy conservation is one of the activities has a two-year waiting list there for Basically, if someone cannot afford to take out a loan and that's generally a catch-22 situation where if you don't have enough money to be able to have your income verified and so forth and take out a loan you have to be put into your wedding was for a gram. So basically if someone really has a low income at this point in time to put on a waiting list for the Minneapolis Housing Authority grant program, which includes energy conservation measures as part of Grants the the other parts of the grants take care of cold items. That's the local view for a neighborhood in Minneapolis Dorothy. What's the what's the view for the state as a whole can people in various sections of the state of Minnesota have any hope of getting grant money or special load a low-interest loans for energy conservation in the home. There is grant money available. But there also are enough people available who want that money to use it up very quickly. There are waiting lists in a lot of communities in some communities. There's not it's it varies quite a bit beyond the grant money itself. There's a lot of different loan programs that exist and they vary from 1% interest loan programs to 12% interest programs and they vary in income restrictions from fairly low income $5,000 or less for family up to no limit. So they're their money is available, but they all have certain kinds of restrictions on them and people have to qualify for find out about what is available. Not everyone wants to make a long-distance call to your office in St. Paul to ask But we do have a toll-free telephone line people can call in without paying the fare. It's 806 to 8. 07 5 9 Play at that out later to see if it's right better check it out. But beyond that they can call their local city hall probably can. Find out from city hall or from the county county offices. Usually there is either the city or the county office will administer some of the grant monies that are available through the state. They're Federal programs their state programs and their locally administered programs. Sometimes it's difficult to put your finger on the exact person in your community. I have been told to that industry and utilities have programs to and in fact to we are told that on your monthly utility bill. For example, you can repay the cost of a loan from your utility for energy conservation techniques Dorothy. What can you tell us about the advisability of that or the attractiveness of that plan as opposed to some of the other things a low-interest loan, so I'm waiting for the moderate-income homeowner who probably would not qualify for a lower interest Grand somebody who is the relatively stable income. These are good programs. They can they're at 12% interest of you can go to NSP for instance in the Twin Cities area and there's some other local Municipal Utilities and Cooperative utilities that also run similar programs. They they do a good job of screening contractors that work with their program so that if you get a recommended contractor from the utility, you can be fairly certain you're getting a reasonably good job, and then the money is financed through the utility and they add the payment on to your monthly bill discovered about what people in a community or a neighborhood can do that will help them cut corners on the cost of energy conservation are are strategies such as buying materials in bulk worth while or can people find Outlets that most of us don't know about that will help cut the price a little bit a group of your neighbors together and just go to an insulation supplier as of this particular. If you want to do the work yourself going to an insulation suppliers opposed to a contractor. And saying we need X number bags or X number of pieces of materials. You can probably get a substantial cut in your cost interest in things are happening in the communities where people are literally meeting and garages having weekly meetings talking about energy conservation getting together over coffee cake cookies anything and really talking about the severity of the problem. It's not that people are not unwilling to do anything about it has been our experience. We know that the issue but with the face with the Specter of rising cost for all of these materials, how how successful. Do you think the conservation program is we know that barb said earlier that a lot of people on fixed incomes just aren't able to buy the materials necessary the demand for materials indicates that a lot of people are buying material. The Dorothy and Barb do you think that the increasing price is serving as a real disincentive for people to do by the materials? I think people. Really big incentive to buy the materials and that's their monthly bill. Unfortunately that the price of energy is going up at such a rate that people are forced to look at the Alternatives. They have the payments building and insulation is a very effective way to to cut down on bills. Sometimes a lack of good information as to what to do in terms of conserving energy people aren't like we're not aware of the of the toll-free number that you were able to to give out and I think I lack of which I lack of low cost low cost measures particularly lot of people are our tenants and don't want to make the investment but yet still must pay their utility bills. And so what what can a tenant do who doesn't want me to put the money into a landlord's building at 70% of people that live in our community our tenants and so we're faced with with that question off and what can I do to pay my bills now we talked about really simple measures such as plastic on Windows, you know, putting rugs funeral underneath your doors close off rooms do some simple low-cost things. A lot of people aren't aware of of even putting plastic on the insides of their windows and that's because we work Take that as a as a given you mention tenants Barb in buildings. And what is the success that you have seen in tenants approaching the landlord and saying will help you pay for the insulation materials. If you will agree to buy fiberglass, for example, put in the ceiling or whatever situation where if you have a responsible landlord, they will want to improve their building again. You haven't absentee landlord. You can't deal with it at all. If you have you know, I think it's just a specific situation is about 21 minutes after 10. We're talkin was Dorothy hose of the Minnesota Energy agency in Saint Paul and Barb weinshanker of the center for local self-reliance in Minneapolis. If you'd like to call and ask a question of our to guess you may call us in the Twin Cities area at 2 to 11550. That number in the Twin Cities area is 221-1550. If you live outside the Twin Cities call area. Still in Minnesota, you can call us toll-free at one 800-652-9700 that toll-free number is 800-652-9700. And before we take our first call, I want to return to appointment and earlier. We've heard that it may not be necessary to use one type of insulation only in the house. How can homeowners learn which part of their house walls ceilings windows or whatever needs work first. How do homeowners establish a priority list of what should be done first? You think Dorothy? It's really a tough question. It depends a lot on what's already in their home. They really have to start with the things that payback fastest time for them. And I think you know most every case that's weather stripping and caulking any home should have storm windows all the way around it or if they can't afford to put instruments. They should add another layer of glazing by putting a plastic sheeting. Those are the kinds of things that should be done first. Once the cracks in the holes are plugged up with weather stripping and caulking I think people should take a good look at their attic if they've got even three or four inches of insulation in an attic of all ready then it's kind of a toss-up whether to started with the walls or the Attic. In almost any case eventually the walls in the Attic both should be re-inflated and the payback once there's a couple inches in the Attic or three or four is about the same on both jobs. So it's easier to the attic and it's cheaper. So people usually start their questionnaire on the line waiting to talk to both of you. But before we get to that call, I want to give out the numbers one more time because lines are open. The number in the Twin Cities area again is 221-1550 and the toll free number for those of you living outside. The Twin Cities area is 806-529-7008 hundred 6529. 700. Good morning. You're on the air say I have a problem. I'm taking my basement windows out. I have an older home. And when I took the frame out the rim joist around the perimeter of the house doesn't have any installation in it. And my problem is that I heard him mentioning something about foam. Can I blow foam in there? It's possible to blow foam into the room to a stereo, but phone doesn't sure very well when it's open to the air. It dries too quickly and with crack and Shrink. So if the rim joist area is is open at all. It probably shouldn't be done with foam it. Well if it's an clothes than it is possible to put in foam other types of insulation materials are are also good. You can push in fiberglass Batts and you can blow in cellulose of the area if it's closed have to be I sure to get the area. Was good at feeling of cavities like that, but it's too small to be done by myself. I know it probably shouldn't be done by yourself that the type of equipment that you need to put in foam has is very expensive and complicated. The phone was actually make mixed right on the site and it's a really delicate operation actually and should be done by qualified contractor. If the job is too small really for a phone contract or two one. I do it. There's perfectly adequate other types of Benson insulation and I would recommend looking at putting in fiberglass or cellulose they can do the job and you can do it yourself and save yourself some money that way Okay. Thank you very much. Very good. Thank you for calling the other question is on the line and I want to get to them as soon as possible. But just one point on poem for both of you. I have heard that there is some question as to how reliable home is as an insulating material, especially with the question of shrinkage involved to do either of you know more about that. Well from just some experience that the centers had with taking a look at foam insulation. We've taken out a couple of walls where a house has been formed and have found a lot of shrinkage and cracking with the material that had been in in the home for a year. That's one of the criticisms of a foam insulation is is that not only is it. Spencer, but it it can shrink and cracked a lot of that has to do with The applicator mixing the materials on the job of someone really doesn't know what they're doing. You won't be getting your insulation for you. No preference Elation for the money. I guess I could never in good conscience recommend someone putting foam into their into their home. When I guess I'd like to worth either stay at the end if the energy agency recommends foam insulation or not. We've just done some studies and I think local self-reliance was involved in the we went around and took off the walls of some people's house the siding and and looked at what it happened and we found that there were all types of foam jobs that that we saw everything from a substantial amount of shrinkage to very little foam is a good insulator when it's properly installed and when it cures well in the world A lot better than no insulation in the wall. Even when it does do some shrinking. We did find that it didn't shrink a large crate large spaces in the world which would set of convection current instead of pull that way from in all directions and cracked vertically all the way down which made very small openings as a as a cured. This is better than treating a large hole where you use set of convection currents in the wall. So it the insulin qualities were still there. Although the R-value did drop somewhat from the the R-value of that is is claimed by the manufacturer overall is it ranked with the other insulation this as far as intense fighting qualities even after it had cured in the wall and shrunk some so I guess our feeling is that it's important that you get a good. If I contracted put it in and be careful when you do a phone job that it's probably mixed on the site and then it can be it sometimes seems to be expensive more expensive and we have other callers waiting to ask questions of our guests Dorothy Hozier from the Minnesota Energy agency and Barb weinshanker from the center for local self-reliance. Minneapolis will take the next question. Good morning. You're on the air infrared energy pictures of the house if they were showing in downtown St. Paul and it didn't show any heat loss. I'm wondering if that means there's sufficient insulation or just what the significance of those pictures are. Good question. Yes, it is really can show where there is some heat loss. And when you take a look at them and you see a house that is fairly light compared to the others around it on the same picture. You can be fairly sure that that house is has a pretty substantial heat loss problem on the other hand. There's some other variables in there that can affect the quality of the picture. Sometimes you'll see a house that's looks fairly dark and looks like there isn't a problem with it and the really is and there may not be any insulation in that attic at all. And that that's because of the rooftop. Maybe I made out of the different material there may have been some snow on the roof. There may be some moisture differences in that rooftop than the others and it's a good thing even once you see your infrared thermograph of your home and it and it's dark and it looks good to take a look up in your Anyway, and I'll check the amount of insulation. You've got up. There are willing to take infrared pictures of homes and have you found that that's useful if a contractor will agree to it or people in the community. We haven't run across that we did purchase a And I think it's alright now we lost to call her there but that color will get back to it and an infrared gun that was too to have detected heat loss by kind of a Buck Rogers type ray gun that detects Heat lost by just running a scanning the gun across the wall. And what we have found basically is is that if you do some fairly basic things such as stopping cold air from coming in and checking out your attic that you don't really need the sophisticated infrared technology that people are suggesting will help you determine where your heat loss is I think you some Basics. I think that's fairly true of looking into a wall is very difficult and I suppose an Ifrit thermograph would be the best way to see whether you you've got that wall full of insulation, but it just caused quite a bit of money and I think there are other ways to To find out you know, how well insulated your building is in Minneapolis. We have call waiting with questions and we'll take the next one. Good morning. You're on the air and then I'll just listen it's something be done about that and then wood frame storm windows that don't fit real well with a plastic should be inside outside. And then the third question is will bats in the Attic that it flattened out and NSP suggest contractors, but each seem to be dealing with a different product and which to buy to add to that. Attic vents in the Attic. All right. We're trying to make notes Here on your questions then to hang on with us in case we had do not accurately represent all three questions of the first one then draft on the floor and I presume this is a cement Foundation or a cement block Foundation you talking about you have grabbed. I guess. I don't understand what you're asking you if drafts on your floor Isaac coming in between your foundation to have cracks in your foundation. Okay, that's that's really a real common place for heat loss of its underneath your kitchen cupboards. I guess you can do a couple of things if one of the things to stop cold air from coming in is is if you have any major cracks in your in your foundation you should do is just some basic patching of your foundation is coming in from underneath the kitchen cupboards. I would suggest that you possibly into floor if that's possible underneath your in your basement the pipes or something that are on the outside wall. Sometimes that means some insulation has been removed or that there's some kind of opening if you can follow the water pipes back down you maybe find able to find some kind of opening their on the outside wall. You can always put some kind of insulation over your black your cinder block wall to there. You can glue styrofoam one answer. It should be covered with the court Athens gypsum board to prevent any fire hazard, but that can insulate them. Keep it warmer for wood frame storm windows that have been placed on Windows on the outside or the inside of those windows. Is that your second question. plastic outside in it really doesn't matter. If you put it on the outside. It's going to probably look a little better but it's going to suffer some damage from the wind and the snow and the rain ripping it around you put on the inside as I would last a little bit longer. Sometimes it can heat up on a hot sunny day and it may you may have a little odor problem or something with it. But that usually goes away and it'll last longer on the inside group that said settled and flattened out and it was an idiot more insulation for engine studs weren't covered. So NFC recommended 3 contract has been noticed. It seems to have a different preference and what kind of insulation cellulose or mineral and fiberglass and whatever. So, how do I select? Which is the most optimal insulation to get okay? I think what you need to do in that situation is to determine what what insulating material you want in your attic you can choose the cellulose to be blowing in north or the fiberglass will to be blown in if you're going to have a contractor do it. Then when the contractor comes to your home asking or when you're getting list of contractors ask for contractors who will installed that type of material so that when they come, you know, how much you want to be added to your attic and then you tell them that you would like a bid on that particular type of material to be added instead of having each contractor sell you try to sell you a different type of material you need to determine that first for yourself is a phone and I are you saying that either of those are okay? Cellulose or fiberglass. You have to figure out what you got up there first. If it's if it's a mineral bat your shirts men or will then you can probably put any type of insulation over it wouldn't put foam over it in an attic that's not a good good application of phone, but you can put cellulose or mineral wool or fiberglass on over top of it. If it is a fiberglass batt. However, that usually it's a lot lighter substance and is easily pack down even more by other kinds of insulation to tell you then you should probably stick with putting in more fiberglass in if it's will then you can put any any of those products in there and I would say pick the one that gives you the best insulating value for your money. None phone. I wouldn't put any form in the attic ceiling that some. It's not a good area to put in foam. It doesn't you're probably in the Attic usually and there's some older problems already in their ceiling and you gave out of toll free number earlier. Was that the right number and answered. Yes. We have the information center at the agency and their two real numbers that people can call once in the metropolitan area of its 2965 175 for people who live outside the metropolitan area. The number is Toll-free at 800-652-9028. Okay, very good and we'll give those numbers again out at the end of the program. We have other callers waiting to talk with Dorothy. Hosen Barb weinshanker and we'll take the next call turn out. Good morning. You're on the air. We have a 90 year old house and do we have inside the attic but we don't feel like to try inside the wall outside have decorations. And we think that we can get at the wall to the attic think we've been able to drop down a way to explore how far down we go to get a plate and we're wondering if there's any kind of help we can get at finding out what server installation we could be able to put in rum into wall from the attic. Yeah, I guess that you could blow in cellulose material or you could pour in a vermiculite pouring pouring material. If you have if you have access to being able to pour it all the way down either of those have a decent rfactor and will give you a good insulator quality. Would there be a vapor barrier generally if you're going to be insulating your walls without putting in the bats of April. Isn't generally install what's recommended is is that the next time you paint your walls it if you would paint them with an oil-based paint and that would act as a vapor barrier of oil-based paint. I wondering if we're making light might have run the problem while collecting water at knifepoint. I think all types of insulation to can collect water vermiculite included. It has a lower R-value. I think than this is a bosun in might be lured pores quite well. I think it used to be used quite often in older homes. Probably as old as yours where you could pour from the attic now with the kinds of cellulose blowing machines, you might get a little bit of insulating quality with the cellulose both vermiculite and cellulose will pick up water fiberglass over while the glass itself doesn't observe the water the air pockets in between does they all will to some extent they also will dry out as soon as in the moisture is the air gets dragged in it. They will dry out again. So they do retainer insulated qualities. They don't usually they don't lose it just because they got wet once Thank you very much. Good and thank you for your call. We have other callers waiting with questions will take the next one. Good morning. You're on the air Berkeley available film from a 35mm camera. And if so, what does Prince be acceptable for analysis? I know you cannot do that with your own 35 millimeter camera. There's a special camera that that is being used to to take those kind of photos. I know there's one from in town that is doing it for a fee and I don't recall the name. I believe it's Now, I don't really it's like 25 or $50 somewhere in that range. But I do know that the audience who has information on the special equipment that might be required can call in and perhaps give us the information necessary for the usefulness of a person taking their own a camera from home and trying to take infrared photos. Maybe we can get that information for the end of the program. We have other callers waiting with questions will take the next one. Good morning. You're on the air, It's not about insulation. I just want to know if there is some any financial aid or Grant or tax break for putting in a wood-burning stove to supplement our gas furnace. We have plans to put one in and you hook it right in I understand to the gas furnace. Is there any date available? Probably not right now. Although in Carter's energy plan after it's been worked over by the House and Senate there is still existing in there at this moment that tax rate for wood burning equipment. So that may happen in the near future and it may not because that bill has not been passed those measures are set up to be retroactive to last April when Carter proposed his plan so it could be thanks very much believe you could apply for a low-interest loan. Some of the banks are on that a low-interest loan through the bank for some of the banks are offering loans for energy conservation activities in a wood-burning stove is definitely one of those activities, right some of the banks have a slight interest rate break on energy loans and you could contact your bank and they may and may be able to do you make it be Qualify for one of those good we have other colors waiting with the questions will take them now. Good morning. You're on the air with the thermostat back to 58 for my comfort in My Willie dogs comfort and I have three bedrooms and I don't like I hated bedroom. So I closed off all the registers in the bedroom and I keep my filter is clean and I think everything is good condition. So I thought I would conserve fuel as well when I got my gas statement. I merely slept because it was more than twice what it had ever been at that time of year know what happened. I must have upset something I should say and I have never thought about you take a stab at it and he guesses on that one. I would say it's just gas build. It was twice as big as he's ever been before was the middle of last winter how much with my bills of course and also the medium temperature for the month and it just didn't stack up right could ever be resolved if it's been a couple of years ago, but I would suggest that you would read your own gas meter to and they figured it was all okay that way and when I turned it back on again while I went back to the regular You know, it sounds like a very difficult question that particular question may remain a mystery, especially if you approached me. Sounds like a crack at that temperature because I don't like being all dried up. And it's much better for my animals and plants to. never heard of a tremendous amount of inaccuracy on the part of the utility company, but that may be because I am poorly informed on that particular and everything else because He was upset about that and I should say condensation between my phone does this year? Why should I ventilate them or steal them up with some tape from window on the inside part of the inside window and I haven't had any special had been on for some time so that they had equalised I thought The temperature in between Windows not why did that happen? And what did I do about that? It's pretty messy. Yes. I probably you've got a pretty high moisture level in your house. You mentioned plants and animals. So maybe you got more plants and more animals than you had before they they do create human beings every cooking showers. All that will create a lot of moisture in your house. You may have a fairly high humidity level. And one thing to do is just a crack a window for a short. Of time to equalize the humidity there. Another thing is to make sure that your windows are tightly sealed so that you're not getting a lot of moisture dampness going through them. You should not drill large holes in your storm windows in order to allow the moisture to escape while you're doing is letting cold air in that way and better that you just temporarily crack the window in and lessen the moisture out with questions will take the next one. Good morning. You're on the air Minnesota women's meeting in December of this year on housing and I'm from the upstate area and they do say that the country over at 40% of the substandard housing exist in the rural areas. And at that time I spoke in support of the extension of the building code Statewide which would take care of energy conservation measures as far as new housing was concerned, but my concern Express there was that the legislature Maybe To do something next session about the stock that to the existing stock of Housing and if I guess my concern is the mhfa grant take care of the people of a certain age and with income guidelines and then there are grants and then there are people who will take advantage of loans and it's kind of thing to their utilities to take care of making their home energy conserved but I think of landlord to tenant pay their own utility bills and they don't seem to be too concerned about this as long as they can maximize profit on a rental and I wonder I guess my question is will will these people be recommending anything's the legends? Regards this existing housing that some of us may not be inclined to take the energy crisis too. Seriously, as long as these people are slipping through the cracks. Either one of you want to take a stab at that question. Are you aware of any legislation that may be proposed or do you have any thoughts on that yourself about how to address the topic of existing housing and energy conservation? Last session there was Bill introduced that. Concerned specifically the renter. The owner of the building would have had to verify that is building met certain existing energy standards standards for existing buildings within a 2-year. I believe it was that legislation was not passed. There was a lot of controversy about how it would be enforced when it would be enforcing what the standard would be what has happened since then is that the energy agency has has been working with these building codes division of the Department of administration to Define some standard for existing residential buildings, and we'll be finishing that we hope in December and be presenting that to the legislature so that they can pass this type of legislation. They all have the standards available there for their use Gestation is passed that each particularly in the App State areas that you try to make sure that the that then the codes are enforced and that's that's at least one of the real problems in the city is just code enforcement itself because of absentee landlord. You're calling your question. We have other callers waiting and we'll take the next question. Good morning. You're on the air. Good morning. We came back with some questions related to styrofoam. We were fairly I guess convinced the styrofoam on new insulation on exterior or outside walls seem like a pretty good idea on the outside walls underneath the outside seating and also then the on the exposed concrete block and I guess the first question I have in his would you say that the other is a recommendation that people in Construction should use this type of insulation or should say to that go with normal life board and batten or whatever they use for insulation. Now, the first question is is related then to the styrofoam and second question is related to Windows. I get the energy show left me a little bit the stuff in the air as to whether or not triple triple glazed or double incident insulated glass either one is worth the money over double insulated pane glass and the Builder that we've been talking to and first of all suggested that you probably will not get money back on the styrofoam that it probably is not worth putting in the phone at the Styrofoam insulation and is not the not questioning too much on the windows, but I guess I'm a little concerned about witches which is which on a triple insulated double insulated glass and try glazed or triple glazed. Can you run clear this up for me? Well, I can try there's some a couple of different techniques for New Home Building that can add substantially to the R-value of your walls putting styrofoam or other kinds of rigid board. I think celotex makes every High R-value board on the outside of the wall instead of the ordinary sheathing is it is a good way to raise the overall R-value of your well, there's another way and that is to put in a 6 inch studs rather than foreign student input in a thicker fiberglass bad in in wallet cell. More secure other types of insulation either one of these methods would be definitely recommended as a an energy-saving. Measure in a new home and it it goes beyond existing energy code for buildings, but it certainly would pay back in lower fuel bills around the foundation of the house that is also recommended right styrofoam around the perimeter on the outside is is a good insulator and helps keep them. The heat in in that area that some of the black that does quite a bit of heat. Yeah, they exposed concrete block in any home is a great energy area of energy loss and you can put the styrofoam or the rigid foam insulation on the outside or you put on the inside. You can put it on your basement walls and finish off your basement that has the same effect on the double insulated or triple glazed windows with Barbara Dorothy. What is the recommendation there? The extra pint glasses is very important to him. Every time you had a pink glass you're going to cut substantially down your heat loss pacifically built for triple glazing are sometimes pretty expensive. You can have a double glazed window in a storm storm kind of combination. That's just as effective as the manufacturer triple pane window and sometimes even more of an energy saver the distance between the pains is very important. There's got to be a dead air space in there and the the larger the distance the better than sling quality usually have time for one more question right now. Good morning. You're on the are you tell me a little bit about the advantages and disadvantages of putting a wood-burning stove in the basement with the idea of it warming the air and hot air rise. Any energy Savings in that kind of an operation? Oh, okay. I guess I I could answer that one of the advantages of putting a wood-burning stove in your basement would be that if you were considering hooking it up to the existing ducting system. There are stoves out now where you can put in a Hook it up to your existing forced air furnace or whatever kind of system you have. I guess one of the disadvantages of it being is is that it's a small a smaller type of wood stove isn't one of the new new stove set of come out that you're going to have it in the space that you're trying to heat and then you have to put in, you know, a new chimney and things like that. So a lot of it depends upon the type of stuff that you're going to be. Okay. I have hot water gas heat so that it would not be connected up to any existing system. But rather just a free-standing stove heating the air around it and causing the air currents to move the warm air around the house the literature that that stole sellers so why is it that this is a wonderful idea and I guess I wonder if that is true or not. You will get some heat gain into the rest of your house cuz it warm air does rise if your basement isn't well-insulated if you've just got concrete block a lot of is going to go right out to the wall which is kind of wasteful. It would be much more effective at the wisdom was put in the area house you would heat then if it were put in the basement, I think the the advantages with it when you have a hot water system of putting the stove in separately and just heating air in the basement are minimal unless you really use that basement for heat we have time for just one more quick question and that's from myself for a change in that is people have asked lots of questions about skills and how to learn how to do things. We took a question not long ago about Windows and if persons are interested in installing new windows themselves, it takes some skill bar, but can you tell us about where people can pick up the skills? I'm thinking especially of the Twin Cities area. Okay. This is the center offers and has been offering a variety of how to workshops. Most of our workshops have been in South Minneapolis. We do the energy conservation workshops for project for pride in living. We are the steps to a couple of community education classes. There is one course being offered at the University of Minnesota extension office. I know that northern states power has been there consumer education office has been offering to be worth calling him to see when they're going to hold their next how to type of Workshop lumber yards in Twin Cities have been Knox Lumber offer to how to kind of Workshop. So I think Hennepin County Library system's there's there a lot of things that are that are happening and of course you can always call the Minnesota Energy agency to and perhaps talk with Dorothy hosen those two numbers again. The toll-free number is eight hundred six five two nine zero. 284 Minnesota Energy agency and for Twin Cities area residents. You can call +29-650-175-5175 in the Twin Cities area. Thanks to Barb weinshanker from the center for local self-reliance in Minneapolis and Dorothy Hozier from the Minnesota Energy agency. Also. Thanks to Michael Moriarty for technical direction for this program and to Neil Saint Anthony for production assistant.