This morning will serve a resource Redemption and recycling in the Twin Cities with a special eye to its economic viability for years recycling among some people has been nearly a moral act but morality or social Good For Better or Worse does not seem to govern economic decisions in business or household. If it is more convenient to toss out an object rather than to recycle or reuse out the door it goes but in recent years fostered by environmental Consciousness and the constant drain a virgin resources, there has been a slight opening in the resource markets for reusable Commodities in this program will talk about camps bottles and paper the people who collect them sell them and their value in product markets dominated by virgin materials.Several years ago a group of businessmen created. What is now the Metro Recycling Center a subsidiary of the occupational Training Center, it operates with the assistance of state and business grants and provide employment persons who are handicapped. It is the largest recycling concern in the Twin Cities in terms of volume as well as a variety of materials that are brought to the green dumpsters that line the outer workyard metros president is John Durand the company accepts newsprint cardboard bottles and cans to the unlearned consumer a can is a can but at Metro can is a generic term used to describe a number of containers some of Greater recycling value than others. You want to see a woman about hear what you'll see is a bi-metal can Okay, that's a steel body was an aluminum top. They all aluminum cans pulled out at the recycling gabose and that's process separately that shredded rather than being bailed your food cans have a tin plate on the inside. So any any one of the cans it would be soup vegetables fruit. Know the value of this can going to a d10 or it doesn't make any difference. How much aluminum is on it? Because in the process of Defending, they'll take that aluminum off at the same time, but there is a real value difference between non conflate that can go directly into the process of recovering low-grade copper or dumpster over. There are headed for you and Chris going to be again, they'll be shredded and used to recover Copper from a low-grade ore said ion exchange that I talk to you about where you actually hear you're changing an iron atom for a copper atom in our The aluminum foil be taken off and they depending process and that it'll be recovered as a tin oxide the channel and go to the clothing manufacturing industry. Where is the basic component that they need in the treatment of fabric? What's your daily volume in here? You have any idea? Amount of probably about 40,000 lb of cans. Yeah, they sent a real car out every other day. And that's 80,000 to 90000 lb in a car. Is there a growing market for recycled materials? Yes growing Market as far as the volume that it's able to assimilate but not necessarily price. The metal is in a depressed market for almost 3 years. In fact, it's been as depressed and Market is anyone's ever seen in history of scrap. It still isn't. cost competitive with Virgin metals that are mined Is that the problem or will know for some purposes? It has more value than iron or taken out of the ground its price at the same level of it as a number one Factory bundle, which is one of your higher grade scraps. It has a lot more value to it. Then say automobiles that are jump, you know per ton that's relatively clean material and it has some very definite selective uses. Here's a good example of tinplate. You look inside that greenish yellow coating interior for sure. I can right now 10. Because we do have a lot of 10 in it. We can't go directly to a remelt such as North Star Steel or they would use it and manufacturing steel for reinforcing rods internet for the in a construction industry and making steel so it has no direct Outlet there if we had all cans without TN bailed we'd have an immediate local Outlet at a higher value than what we do shipping steel cans at present are worth little more than $0.01 per pound as compared to aluminum which net $0.17 per pound with such a tight profit. Margin Metro relies on a heavy volume, but the resource suppliers for the most part private parties and volunteer organizations. Do not supply a constant stream of cans the weather works against us people aren't as willing to go out and process this material during the winter. We also have a change in consumption of fruit juices and some of the other things that are canned no such as Kool-Aid lemonade. That's something that's going to move very clear on high volume during the summer months and you're not going to see during the winter. The recycling industry depends on well-intentioned consumers, but Duran said much time is spent sifting through clearly marked by Rebel that has been tossed in with the cans and bottles volunteer. Debbouze we have No control over quality and we've got to go through the material and we've got to pull a metal off. Okay. So you're saying when somebody's out there watching what people are throwing into the barrels right eye keep an eye and can separate what's going on. But Pray when somebody comes in after hours, I can throw it in any Barrel. Is that a problem people throwing in the wrong barrels? Good. Finding things that were in the glass metal cans porcelain. steel plastic Melmac prescription bottles with those lock on Gap tinfoil you name it? Okay headlights out of automobiles that have contaminants in it. The material coming in from some sites is extremely gross where there's no monitoring. Those were there is monitoring you come up with excellent quality material. the aluminum that comes in And soda, we have a very very low incidence of aluminum actually actually miss greatest. That's a steal can does it have an aluminum brand on it? No, it's a steel can and it's Miss identified by someone who's attempting recycling because of the aluminum top. They didn't pay any attention to the welded side seam on it. And I don't fully look at aluminum. Used to be able to tell because of the seamless can now they're steelpan. It looks just like that. The only way to really test it. Is that a magnet with a side walls of aluminum can are somewhat thinner weed. I have aluminum pie pan in your hand, huh? Right? This is probably the single largest generation of aluminum in Minnesota TV dinner trays aluminum pie pans. From the pre-prepared pastries and desserts John Durand of Metro Recycling Reynolds. Aluminum is the dominant manufacturer and recycler of all aluminum containers Reynolds has capitalized on the national movement constructing 400 redemption centers recycled aluminum now accounts for 8% of the company's annual output. I spoke with Jim house manager of the company's Little Canada Redemption plant payroll on a monthly basis. They've been generating a little over a hundred thousand pounds to stay out of the Twin Cities, which is over 2 million cancer month, which is considerable now and you're only interested in aluminum cans that right? Well, we're interested in any type of aluminum castings and this includes your household packaging items like TV dinner trays, they spoil pudding cups of pie plates this type of material and also be called miscellaneous crap, which could be old siding and lawn chair frames. Aluminum window frames only thing is the miscellaneous crap has to be completely free of any foreign material. That means if there's any steel or plastic moldings on if they have to be removed and cut Appliance about more than 3 feet. Do you work closely with Community organizations in arranging for a drop offs and pickups and cycling drive? It would not be able to bring the lumens I so we'd make arrangements to go get the medal from them. I see what kind of incentive is there for a person to save their aluminum discarded materials and recycle them right now. We're paying $0.17 a pound and since there's about 20 to 12 oz beverage cans in a pound that's just a little bit under a penny a can two people can get for saving the material and turning it back in and also there's the energy incentive if it only takes 5% of the energy to make a and from a recycle can fit a wood from Virgin or so. It's a 95% energy saving every time you can shoot over again. I see what goes on after the Reynolds truck picks up the discarded aluminum materials the cans in the trays and will they always return here right up come back to the plant here or in other areas of similar plant and the material will then be run across the magnetic separator to remove any steel from the load that comes in and it will then be spread in what we call a hammer Mill in the popcorn size chips at least or until we can load a rail car and send the real Carlo to the smelting plant. And it's melted down and write three finished and made in the new cans. It takes about from the time. Somebody turns a Canon say at the plant or or one of our trucks its back out in the story and is a nuke in about 6 weeks. Do you look at the recycling Market is something that's growing friends, since it going to isolate the Twin Cities area have any idea of what percent of the Virgin can be purchased across the counter are recycled for second. You say we're getting about 50% back of what we put into the market. And we're the largest producer of the can but in terms of growth just as an example last year. We did around 2 million pounds. For the year of cans in this year with vines going to be around 3 million pounds so that the growth rate has been phenomenal you said about 50% of return. So for every two cans that you build out of Virgin aluminum one can is returned to be remade into a new can only only thing is hard to say about that is a lot of the cans that are coming into the market now are not virgin material. They are recycled material. I slid out of every two. We put in the market for matter what they're made out of we're getting them back in terms of pumping money into the local economy in the Twin Cities. What kind of payoff did Reynolds give the area 1976 and what's your guests for this year? They will last year in a state made out over $350,000 to just two people on parking lots to be turned on their aluminum and so far this year. We've paid out little over $172,000. So I foresee us paying since we're on our busy season now, probably an area $400,000 out this year to the people of the state and the local area. How many recycle cans does it take to make a new fan 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 we have the metal lost. It is very very minimal on Reese melting it. And a good thing too is that that guy as long as somebody turns him back and they can be reused it doesn't say just go five times and then deteriorate. Lot of our conveyors in hammermill. So we use a different locations are converted agricultural equipment that we've been adapted to recycle aluminum, but a lot of expense comes in terms of the type scales will use which are some of the best and most precise scales on the market. and then due to the nature of the material that were shredding and handling on maintenance cost and also run very high. Despite the the high cost of Maintenance and Machinery in energy you mention that the company can pay $0.17 a pound for aluminum Now isn't is it profitable for the company at must be a few view at this is something that's expanding and you're pleased and you're encouraging it aside from being a good companion to the environment that you must be making money off it. Okay, I would say we would be making some money not as much as people probably think that we are from recycling the material a lot of is due to the price that we're paying back to the consumer. Would you consider up the best you can do right right now it is on would be the highest that we can go but then again tomorrow I could turn around in our marketing people could say well do we just raise the price again? Haha, and we how does the profit margin on a recycled aluminum can compare to one then comes from Virgin material. Is there a comparison analysis there? I wouldn't have that that answer because I'm not that familiar with them pricing of Virgin material and present, you know. I guess the best way to sum up that answer was we found it economically possible to expand 273 permit locations over the last few years. And make recycling say instead of just a program. It is become a business and healthy part of Reynolds Metals company for aluminum by far is superior to that of Steel. The markets Vitality is demonstrated by the increasing number of people who can be found Scavenging Park areas and boulevards for weekends residue of aluminum. Beer cans some environmentalists. They will never be able to deal adequately with the problem of throwaways. They Advocate legislation that would place a deposit on a beer and pop can which would be partially Redeemed by a consumer upon Return of the kin to a retail grocer or Redemption Center. That sort of bill has been offered in the Minnesota Legislature. It's believed it would eventually steer consumers away from cans to bottles supporters say this is the only way to get cans out of the solid waste stream supporters maintain jobs will be created and recycling to deal with remaining cans and even more jobs will evolve in the reusable bottle industry opponents counter that a mandatory deposit bill will cost a great number of jobs. The convenience of the can will be lost and a great deal of energy will be wasted shipping heavy bottles instead of the contents contained in lightweight cans John Durand a metal recycling does mandatory deposit could do in his business back and makes us viable in a good Market it pays for expansion. Have other Commodities and pays off the losses that we experienced in handling some of the other items such as glass over long distance. Okay Publix going to come in with cans and as a Redemption Center operator, they're going to come in and they're going to have beer cans pop cans are going to have Hi-C or going to have Lipton iced tea and they're going to have a lot of other cans that actually contain liquids are beverages that aren't redeemable. I'm not going to be be the person to stand here and tell him I'm going to pay you for this can and not the other they're not that reasonably can is a can they lock the shed? You know, how beverage in it? the hours that you no need to the site needs to be maintained the turnaround in Kansas. They're talking about you know, they're not going to be that high as I can be that many of them use number one and you're not going to be able to have one Depo here in the Midway area that's going to take care of a five or six County area. You going to need 10 or 12 of them? Then you're going to have transportation of that lower volume of material back into the site. So I don't disappointment what's needed if if we're saying that we put can factories out of business with a mandatory deposit $0.08 or $0.09 out of the dime. They get back every switches the bottles and if we had to depose places like your place here in the Midway District people wouldn't differentiate between cans and walk in the dumper whatever they had what it was an oil. What's the answer then? In terms of educating the public long-term educational program as to what is specifically covered and what isn't is that something you can start up overnight and expect to have an informed citizenry, you know responding to the system. I have some other you know problems with the ban on Kansas specially in Parks. It's been a long time since I've cut my foot on a broken bottle. And I'm not looking forward to going back to Upstate this marginally. It's maintaining public awareness. It is important for us to recover a resources. Whether it's a tomato soup can or whether it's a Coca-Cola can and when they go to emphasizing one can over the other and you say when you throw in the garbage can because it's not redeemable in the other you bring in. I think it's counterproductive. And we can't afford that now we're just beginning to make some inroads. Some people do recycle their here. Every week was their material and I feel that it's important and are contributing now. We're going to tell him it's only important for that one type of can so you're saying that the market will shift will go to all bottles and then we'll be in real trouble because we'll have a lot of broken bottles and beer house for sale. Yeah, we're going to see the the ability to put these cancer back into manufacturer reprocess, you know used as secondary material soon. We're going to disappear with the MVA. Should be left a Private Industry. Then people who see that you might be making a dollar here. No, I go into it though. I think there was an excellent counterproposal. Number one. That's all generations of packaging materials in the tax be used to further recycling efforts in to get you know, what I still think is part of the problem people people who litter people who throw people who indiscriminately, you know, disregard materials Duran's argument is countered by the bills Advocates. They say public education is not enough the Bill's Chief author in the house. Can Nelson Ave Minneapolis estimates far more jobs will be created then lost he believes cans will be relegated to about 12% of the beer and pop market and the environment will be better off for it Sam hasson of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency division of solid waste believe that the mandatory deposit bill is needed because History efforts at recycling and public education programs are not enough one of the things that we've done some grants and age of small community resource recovery center. I can rattle off a listen to CST call Duluth Owatonna occupational Training Center before it will arrive for their workers. Okay, we strongly believe that this this mandatory deposit bill would provide an additional incentive right now. All of these resource recovery plans are very marginal. They got a good job and paper just paper is very efficiently going on with you right now. And that's the one big success story by the way paper metals are very marginal. We admit this to Mankato with Memphis in all of our places. So why are we still have a lot of cans being manufactured? Recycling plant to make it with Metals is still a very marginal question with methicillin manotaur deposit thing. It's providing additional incentive. If you understand this, I understand the bill this would give all the community resource recovery centers. What you going to prove are they can't buy the County Board of Commissioners approved the authorization the community center. Then the consumer brings the non-returnable items Tilles Center gets $0.08 and then the the people who are operating a center get additional $0.02 and we think that might be the additional incentive. It might make it ever has been a marginal operation and an economically feasible one, we're not we're not absolutely certain of that or we think so. I mean that's that's our answer to that question. You know, we feel that to us what a note to the people that I've talked to an industry that he would do that argument by saying what you doing is you putting a tax on the can and if it penalizes store owners, they have to worry about Redemption and returning them and which I bought from them and others up to them. That's the whole the whole rationale for the community recycling center. Is it offers an alternative to the Retail Me Not want to do that? He may be willing to take three eight or six bottles that you bring two bottles from him that you're his customer. But what about the other people who don't choose to accept only those bottles from which my customers so if that happens But it isn't clearly the intent of that bill to do some phasing out of cans to and to move towards bottles, which industry spokesman Contender cumbersome heavy can serve a purpose. You can't catch your feet on gantzel way you can on on bottles at end of there would be a substantial loss of jobs here. We don't want to say thank a little or or to stand in Judgment of the industry position. We know what their position is. It is not tenable for us if we believe for us to argue that the risk and accidents and children, but nobody wants to see that those are not going to happen. They're not going to run our figures tell us a bit in the long run. There will be an increase in jobs along with projections for Minnesota. 435 what is been experienced in Maryland with a net job gain of avalor? 1500 in Connecticut on that job, depending on what you know, you want to get 1500 jobs. What about Massachusetts? What about Maryland? What about epa's figures a national projections that say we can generate $118,000 if we do lose a 38,000 where exactly what is a boiled down to not doing a good job in the recycling program or Metro Recycling isn't doing a good job over or what is it boiled down to wear very supportive of these things season 2. Where is the weather we can expect in the next jacket realistically speaking now for a large-scale resource recovery Industries to emerge we don't see that we think that in the interim we have to rely on those kind of programs which emphasized waste reduction and sorcery independent and recycled resource recovery. I think the kind of programs that that would eliminate waste begin with and can you give me an example of a program of that nature that some of the some of the subsidy under the mat or deposit program which hand to tend to reduce of the tendency of people to to accumulate these kind of things are humiliating cans. Yes, we think that affect also not only encouraging to recycle but to begin with to cut down on the use of the sort of thing I say, okay, so I guess I would draw the difference in between a year position in the position. I've heard from industry spokesman in that they say what is needed is a litter tax and public education what you're saying is we've got to cut down on the number of cans. So you're Turning on going public education programs. I think that's the way we would have to call that. We don't think I can really solve the problem until a large-scale Industries emerge. I think we have to emphasize the plants that deal that deal with waste reduction with resource recovery resource production that sort of thing. The other difference is I see it would be the fact that we think that job will be waiting a long run and then we have to have enough Jason to look ahead. Now. I know it's true that we're dealing with this can be done for a Christian to gradualism. I think it can be done through plants can be worked out. I don't see the problem Sam Hanson of the PCA the mandatory deposit bill is presently under study at the legislature. But some form of it will undoubtedly be considered this session as it has in the past five as hasn't mentioned. The most attractive recyclable commodity is paper there. Are several paper brokers in the Twin Cities the largest being the Horner Waldorf company Horner also produces paper products from certain cardboards newsprint and other waste papers. The going price for a ton of newsprint is $12 per ton. It has been as high as $50 John Walton Corners Paper Stock division is high on the potential for recycled paper the largest single item. and we deal with Almost all commercial type institutions organizations for that very little corrugate is collected by final tears. And the old nose is about in thirds between volunteer organizations from paper drives or where schools are the largest Scouts second-largest almost as largest schools and churches the third group quite a bit smaller. The other sources of news are again the commercial Paper Stock collector in the countryside and the large a commercial house like pioneer here in town. We use something like 40000 tons a year. We'd collect. About two-thirds of that from small Paper Stock dealers in about a third of the week obtained directly through office recycling programs that we have set up with large firms that have large officers like Minnesota mind control that I'm so far we go in and show them any question on how to set up an office recycling program and then function with him on a long-term contractual relationship. Is the market there for all the recycled materials that are coming in? Can you handle it and more the supply is just barely meeting the demand today. And don't see any. And reason for a lot of pain that we're just constantly working to create new sources of generators so that we can keep up with demand demand is the recycle part of the paper business. The paper industry is a whole is supplied. About 40% by virgin wood 32% by residue wood. That's a word that can be used by the lumber people the branches and the slabs and things and about 25% by recycled fibers. And the wood residue is static paper made from virgin wood is declining slightly and the paper made from Recycled Fiber is increasing is the price of paper Rising now, we had a problem 3 years ago where the market bottomed out and you couldn't get much for your old newspaper people started throwing a mountain. I know that you people filled up your warehouses holding for a better market and the What exactly is the situation for the long-term? Silver zinc and goals you can afford to hold on to it, but you're talking about newspaper. That's worth $1 to $12 a ton will say nobody can afford to do much warehousing / come out either that are cheap. So the opportunity to withhold from the market and wait for a better prices are pretty impossible. The the supply and demand is so closely in Fallon today that it takes and takes very little. Increase in demand to put fermented price pressures on that's the reason newspapers just one 20% here in the last couple of weeks. Other segments of the waste paper business other than newspapers are not as severely under pressure as newspapers are right now because the industries that use that recycle paper. are not as active as we all like to see in box plants aren't Running all out there running while but they're not running All Out full and carton plants are so that there is a reasonable supply for the demand and all grades except news on a very tight supply for the man, but we're able to know it will satisfy requirements what it forces us to do though is reach outside of our community for that paper and imported and that's what doesn't make any sense. Like every other business we pay money. in the form of taxes to have Paper putting the landfill out here that we go down to Chicago and buy and import here. Where's the sense that right? Okay, if if the demand is there then say for newspaper and possibly office printed materials, but the resource suppliers out. There are for the most part decentralized not dealing with affirm you dealing with I guess what one might Envision has hundreds of little firms out there and everybody takes papers and little groups bring it in here in the back of station wagons. How do you Jack up Supply. I guess it's a question. It's our belief that the general public if there is such a thing is so unaware of what you and I are talking about right now. What could be developed with a concerted public education ever? Justin Bieber and I guess that's in part of role of our industry in our company by also believe it's substantial role for government, but I don't see the one you don't know OK it's a role for government because it could relieve the landfill problem. Now the Met Council say we got to acquire more of landfill space in the early 80s, date our way Sneads unlike coal oil and fuels but as long as you're and turn on the lamp was up with paper 50% Energy savings is a paper from recycled supposed to wood trim tree. Go back to your question. Okay question for Thursday, you know whose fault? I don't think it's anybody's fault, but 10 interesting things about the in Saugus Massachusetts. They recently started up a large energy from waste plant Steam and I don't remember who did it, but somebody went out in service survey this August community and ask them why they were saving the paper because it is not compulsory. It's a voluntary voluntary. And they gave him a list of the six different ways of public was made aware of it one was a letter from the mayor. One was nautical newspaper. Television programs are some Direct Mail pieces and so forth. Remember, I was like 45% and that was double response of any other group said they were doing because the mayor told him is a good thing to do. I'm insane marijuana murders and just kind of fight over in Minneapolis her sound asleep, but I don't really see what the government in our area. At any level is doing we're so close to the pollution control agency and their activities that were aware of with Adam because it's important to us, but I know my neighbor two houses over hasn't the foggiest idea what's going on when we think of ways recycling. It's kind of a Chic to Tinker with the idea of building huge plants to to burn it up. Those things are pretty capital-intensive demand public debt, and it would seem to be simpler. If you gather these things up at the source bring them to somebody who can use a man who can pay you on your work in energy generation from waste was what happened to the btu content the way she took the paper out and it did go down not as much as most People think but it didn't go down. But when I Total Resource recovery job is done when the metals. And the glass and the Rubber and the paper is pulled out. What's left has about the same BTU value per ton as what they started with? So tell me that you waste to energy generating facility and the resource recovery concept can and should go hand-in-glove with draw those resources at their highest value and their highest value inevitably invariably is as a real meal for the purpose of recycling metal glass and then take the stuff that's of no value of anybody and still has BTU value about half that of call mix it with colon create something. We also need energy Corners John Walton progress from the economics of recycled paper to a discussion of comprehensive resource recovery. You heard Walton discuss two concepts Source separation and a garbage powered Steam Plant a 1975 study done for Hennepin County says, each of us generates about 3 lb of garbage daily, that figure does not include the thousands of tons generated each day by the best real sector presently that waste paper plastic wood textiles glass metal yard and food waste is truck to landfills doubting the seven-county metropolitan area. It's estimated that three-quarters of the materials can be recovered for secondary use or as fuel mixed with coal to power a steam or pyrolysis plant. There are two ways to capture garbage high technology and low technology a power plant is high technology requiring a great deal of equipment and expenditure. Both Minneapolis. And st. Paul are investigating garbage power proposals Horner Waldorf also has studied plans for a plant to supply Steam for its main plant in St. Paul. The technology is available but financing the project would require public debt as most private concern simply lacked the massive Capital requirements for building low technology is not Capital but labor-intensive and relies extensively on the environmental commitment of residence people would be asked to separate the rags non returnable cans and bottles and papers from their organic waste a recent survey of people who do this shows that Source separation takes about 20 minutes each week by simply dropping each item in the appropriate bin sanitation trucks would be portioned into compartments and they're loaded truck to an area redemption centers to be Redeemed by buyers. The rest would go to the garbage power plant. There is at least one ongoing Source separation project underway in the metropolitan area with a $10,000 Grant from Minnesota Pollution Control agency private hauler dick hetland launched a resource recovery program in the northern Minneapolis. Suburb of Brooklyn Center Petland serves about 5,000 customers at 6 months. We had the sea 1/4 participation out of the 5000 accounts. We have 1/4 of those people participating in everyday you asking them to recycle is it just newspapers or newspapers in the cans and then we went on to tin cans and then we went under the third mailing which was aluminum and rag man dragged and the final feeling was just a synopsis of all three of the previous. That was pretty much what the mailing included. You have the resident separate all of these items at their homes before you come to pick up or do do the Separation by the mailings. We've asked the people to suffer the stuff with her home and put it on with their normal rubbish today to pick up anything. How long is a project been going on Deck? Set up. And I know things because of the weather and the signing of the grandson doesn't work really really operational until the end of March. So we really only had the April man June to the police figures from January and February is the name of the structure of mountain report an increase the overwhelming the people that want to get on board I see is it possible even though you haven't got all your figures together yet. Is it possible to surmise? What do you made money or not? Whether this can be a profitable Enterprise for private hauler. Oh, yes, it's candy. However in the grants, we allowed the Girl Scouts a fair amount of money for their sorting and separation. And then after the grand. Was over what's the report on shoulder wouldn't have got paid so much it would have been successful money for the speaker on the paper and has the most valuable piece for iPhone 21 loads in 6 months from going to the landfill. And I know 21 roads comes up to $30 for my route to the landfill in pool savings and labor run by say the number 636 set up. We've just been through you believe that you can make money and it's profitable and I guess you have to say that you're you're working for an environmental cause of course to are you going to continue on your own property after 6 months and I've ever tell you all the papers and trees and everything else that we are. Recycling about 30 tons of months now on the paper and that's figure seems to glow up over you continue the involvement not in the way of Brooklyn Center holler dick Hedlund John Kaiser an engineer in the MPC a resource control division oversaw Headlands project. He says merging in Home Source separation with commercial refuse hauling is the best means to secure a constant stream of reusable materials to their markets are because they're larger there a larger and I are going to recover a larger volume. And they're in the business and they're in the business to make something to make some money and there's been any number of of a volunteer recycling projects which have failed not because of my license there but they failed because they were organized properly and they were so successful that it ceased to become a weekend activity or one-night stands. He was an everyday chore and if you have a good one, if you have a good support and your volume gets big data volunteer system doesn't work and that's When did hollers and they're going to make some money and when you get a private hauler or visit people into it. They want to make that business grow and honored to recover significant volume Sally on the way to to make them grow on the way. I look at it. Anyway, obviously that there has to be some cooperation. You can't the private holler just isn't going to be able to go in a can of snuff out the the things that the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts and then because those are fairly significant to and those groups to recover their majority of their paper at this point in time so I can has to be a Cooperative effort depending on depending on the area in the circumstances. And this is what the cat when did he he's doing what's to pick up but he is working with the Girl Scout Troops in West got to go to who do some of them at paneling and self-worth and they get a cut significant cut of the profits and specially in paper can be profitable morning. Waldorf is playing on the order of $12 a ton for rent or something like that. Well at that point in time. Play one thing the paper was not in the way strength when when the price goes up to a point where it's worth something. You will not see the material in the white strain. So in some cases, I know there could be a situation where you put it all his fancy systems to recover aluminum or steel or paper or some specific segment of paper. The market goes up high enough. You'll see the people separating and out of the source and you won't see that material in the waste stream and that's what happened a few years ago when the price of paper was very high the corrugated the corrugated. They want the landfill Whitelaw the pca's Don Keyser the state legislature in power the Metropolitan Council to coordinate the dispose of waste in the seven County metropolitan area and advisory body to the council is presently considering long-range plans with an eye to both low and high technology recovery systems. The work of drafting a plan is tedious. There is a consensus that we definitely will need to ask And our landfill space within the next three years that means counties must secure huge tracts of land 20 to 30 miles away from the Twin Cities increased transportation and land charges will be reflected in our hauling bills. In addition. Nobody likes living near a dump underground leaching and see if it from a landfill poses a threat to adjacent communities seeking new dumps is only a temporary answer long-range Solutions are even more elusive. The committee often is divided. There is no consensus about what role recycling should play at a recent meeting one member in alluding to policy development said if Private Industry has not yet taken the initiative and exploding garbage that must mean there is no intrinsic value and government should be wary of involving itself. It's believed that that opinion is not held by the majority. Most members believe garbage recovery makes some sense, but one solid waste advisory committee member Mary Ann Curry at Lakeville city councilwoman fears that some policy goals may be contradictory. Such as a centralized plants for for recycling these products possibly at public expense through bondoc. The problem is that whenever the public taxpayer becomes involved in bonding. I can make a commitment to reducing waste. And separating waste but at the same time behind technology solution publicly-financed Lots us into a position of actually having to guarantee a supply and I find that logically inconsistent with reducing waste and separating waste do follow up my line of reasoning. Yes. I do if the community institutes or communities within the larger metropolitan area Institute programs, whereby residence separate their bottles cans rags and newspapers and to be reused then you undercut your Market there. My observation has been that our committee is a dealing primarily with high technology policy subjective and and I technical requirements for it for an applicant but we are not concentrating or taking first thing first, which I think is a public education program because the success of solid waste management really depends upon and inform the public and we're asking at least I in my opinion we should be asking for no less than changing consumer buying patterns. Which is going to change the market for it. And I just don't feel rather strongly that we're not talking enough about implementation. In fact, it goes back to the legislation. Is it somewhat schizophrenic in my opinion? Because we are being asked to develop thumb high-technology policies which apply to the applicant and at the same time commit ourselves to reduction and separation. I think we can't have both what else we're going to have to commit ourselves to one of the other. Do you think it would be better than you mentioned a campaign of public education and educating consumers so that they cut down on the amount of waste that they're accumulating know what that I feel the public has no idea how much it cost to dispose of waste material. If they knew I think there might be more Insidious and there could also be tax incentives to separate garbage and 2 to buy in bulk rather than to buy things in it separately package materials. Justin landfill sites, for example where we're going to run out by the Year 1980 and nobody wants a landfill in their backyard. We've got to look at little Technology Solutions. I think we can point to most any High Technology Solutions and find that it has we've had dots across overruns and Equipment breakdowns and we're finding that I may in fact create more problems than it solves. How do you expect the council to move at least your advisory body? Where are the advisory body probably will not address implementation questions until we're through with State policy development aspects. Well in my way of thinking and in my experience, you cannot make a decision on car seats until you have played out the scenario and you know, whether or not implementation carry the high-risk whether or not it suck it suck on a cost-benefit basis and how much public cooperation you can expect. I guess I still have faith in the public. I think if people are made aware and given some tax incentives or reduction in fees that they are going to corporate Mary Ann Curry of the Metropolitan Council Solid Waste advisory committee. Probably the best way to Halt ways to avoid creating it in the first place. For instance. Some people avoid packaged Foods as much as possible. They'll see racing the problem of dealing with it. And other say why package a few nails or screws and small plastic containers when they can be removed from a large been following the purchase. Well for reasons of Sanitation accounting and others, we have evolved into a society that packages things sometimes sensibly other times for reasons of luxury and convenience recycling in the Twin Cities area is in the embryonic stages. The suppliers are small the markets are varied, but there is hope for expansion and there is optimism that soon multiple use of our resources will become a profitable part of our economy and possibly a satisfying part of our daily lives. I kneel Saint Anthony