Spectrum: Noha Ismail and Nadav Carmel on a pro-Palestinian view

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MPR's Debbie Gage and Yvonne Pearson talk with Twin Cities residents Noha Ismail and Nadav Carmel, who present the viewpoint of the Palestinian people on the Middle East conflict.

Program begins with Pearson interviewing a University of Minnesota political science professor on the historical background of Palestine area in the Middle East.

Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.

We're looking today at the problems of the Palestinian people and we're talkin to to Twin Cities residents who are from the area and who have lived through the major conflicts Noah Ismail as a Palestinian Exile and she now lives in Minneapolis and works in Hennepin County nadaf, Carmel Cox and his is an Israeli citizen. Now living in St. Paul also joining me will be NPR reporter Yvonne Pearson who has done work on the Middle East in other capacities before we begin talking to our guests. Yvonne has done an interview with University of Minnesota political science Professor Mary Mary Ellen Lumsden to give us a historical background on the conflict for those listeners who are not familiar with conditioner thesis on the Middle East on Palestine in the 20s, and she spent several years reading documents and talking to people who lived through the conflict here is that interview. The modern state of Israel has its roots in the late 1800s in Europe when the world Zionist organization held a conference in Switzerland and firmly decided to seek a nationalHomeland for Jews, they chose Palestine the spiritual center of Judaism and the historical homeland of the Jews at that time only 5% of the Palestinian population was Jewish. The rest was Arab predominantly Muslim and had been for centuries, but the Jewish population began to increase under the prompting of the Zionist leadership after World War 1 Britain join the succession of powers who over the centuries Concord and control the country of Palestine Britain arranged to be given a mandate by the League of Nations to oversee the country, but the people were promised their eventual Freedom at about the same time the British foreign minister Lord Balfour in the famous Balfour Declaration of 1917 made a conflicting promise to the Jews a national Homeland within the area of Palestine. However, the Palestinians did not recognize the right of Britain to rule them or to give away any of their land.Meanwhile, Jewish immigration continue to increase until Hitler's rise to power made the pressure to escape profound the United States and Britain would not accept the desperate refugees and the Jewish population in Palestine had more than doubled before World War II. In 1947 the United Nations proposed to Palestine be divided into two parts one Jewish and one Arab in 1948 after a bloody Civil War the state of Israel was declared in what used to be Palestine. Although the United States recognized Israel immediately the Arab states still view the land as Palestine. Professor Winston who studied this. Extensively says there was a time in the early 1900s when the Jewish and Arab communities live together peacefully for example in a large community of Juice Head Live for many generations in The Old City neighborhoods of Christians Arabs and Muslims live side-by-side, very harmoniously, they had an interesting custom and which involves all the babies that were born in a given week and I having a special relationship to each other so that for example in a Jewish mother became ill she would give her baby to an Arab woman to care for until she recovered or when families were going to be a way they thought nothing of leading their children with each other and then these children grew up with a special feeling of something stronger than just neighborhood friendship between them and we're special to each other the rest of their lives as far as political relationships go neither the Jewish Community nor the arrow Community really enjoyed and political Freedom. The area was governed by the ottoman Sultan who was A autocratic ruler both communities are intellectuals and some of the local Jewish leaders had a vision of a future which was a more democratic and a secular form of the political system one in which religion was divorced from politics altogether and therefore a departure from the ottoman tradition where it was a Muslim state if they were living together so peacefully in the early 1900s what prompted the violence that we see coming about now and since that time or the process of conflict originates predominantly from the time of the British occupation in which awareness of the conflicting promises made to the two nationalist groups the Palestinian Arabs on the one hand who wanted to be politically independent in their own land and on the other hand to the Zionist organization whose political program called for creating a colony in Palestine and then through immigration at aning a majority of the population and creating a Jewish state. All the way through this process British political leaders were pursuing their own Imperial and domestic political objectives. There was a general pattern of conflict activity which more or less continued up to 1948. And then with some important changes operates even today. What is that pattern of conflict the first phase involved in strategic maneuvering between the leaders of both the Arab and the Jewish Community First of the Zionist leaders trying to get control of the land to settle and asking the British for resource concessions and at the same time as I am as leaders were hoping to build a Hebrew culture that was a vital element in in Jewish life today. Also, they had to try to block the efforts at the Arabs were making to get self-determination at any point when it looked as though the British were going to give in to her demands. The Zionist leaders had to mobilize their forces against that concession to the Arabs. And finally they had to prepare for war to preserve the games that they'd already made knowing that the Arabs were not going to give up their political rights without more massive forms of protest the Arab leaders pursuit of more mixed strategy. They would constitute of the obvious majority in the country and they asked for immediate independent and refused to recognize any of the provisions for creating a Jewish National home in the area. But in their tactical objectives, they were not able to really mobilize the the masses the way that modern political movements mobilize and they were traditional paternalistic leaders and they didn't recognize the role which protest movements can play as effectively lead. Secondly, they were constantly trying to prove to the British that they were sophisticated and law-abiding and could be granted self-determination because they were responsible leaders in this prevented them from outright revolt against the British did what are some of the Milestones of this escalating violence that was going on. Well, each. Of strategic maneuvering would lead to increased tensions between the two communities and mutual exchanges of accusations and then violence would break out example in 1920 and annual religious procession that the Muslims carried out led to a political demonstration, which was interrupted by armed members of the Zionist Hagen group and then street fighting. break out the Arabs began to Stone Jewish shops, Jewish sniper shot down into the Arab crowd and finally nine people were killed in about 250 wounded the same general outbreak of violence occurred the following year under slightly different circumstances in Java and Daddy's to outbreaks of violence were followed by another. Of maneuvering with both communities trying to build a stronger following among their supporters and then in 1928 and 1929. There was a new controversy over what we call the Wailing Wall which the Muslims been owned and which designers wanted the British to expropriated from the Muslim. And in that conflict 300 were killed and 600. I'm continuing then up into the 30s. They were public disorders which lasted for several years the main difference being that the Arabs had no organized their own militia and we'll put down by British troops and finally in the 1940s the buildup of tensions into the final war of independence in 1948. You mentioned earlier what you called typical British colonialists assumptions in the Middle East. What did you mean by that? generally, I was referring to the fact that the Arabs confronted the arrogance of these European colonizers predominately the British but as they became partners of the British and somewhat because they were drawn from European Society same as leaders had accepted some of the same assumptions about European superiority and attack their unique mission in the area until the attitudes Witcher Express in British official papers, and in the zionists documents and newspapers range all the way from some that are blatantly racist as hurt sold, one of the organizing founders of Zionism revealed in his the volumes of his Diaries to some that are more stereotypical remarks about the Arabs being naturally cowardly and fatalistic lazy devious and then some more subtle forms about the assumption that it design is introduced modern technology into the area, even though their program required having only Jewish employees rather than allowing the Arabs to work in these new project none the less. Imitate the techniques of the scientist for using and finally the assumption that the Arabs would agree to leaving the country and going to live elsewhere. If an Arab state were created in other parts of the Middle Eastern and Palestine were to become a Jewish State all of these are assumptions with the Europeans would never apply to themselves. But did they found it all too easy to apply to blacks in Africa? And in other your non-european peoples at the same time, as Ines program of a rose from the acceptance of the Zionist leaders of some of the worst stereotypes about themselves and their desire to build a new type of a Jewish Community which didn't have the same characteristics of the ghetto communities. So racism really affected both the Arabs in the end of sinus pain in different ways. What do you see as the possibilities for the Jewish in the Arab people to live together in peace in the Middle East now? At one of the major difficulties that both sides faces to vesting themselves of a lot of the myths about what really happened in this. For example, the nature of violence the zionists version of all of this history suggests that they were always the victims of attacks from the Arabs. And in fact, it obscures the very active role which the Haggadah and trumpeldor activists played all going all the way back to 1918 when it was Oregon win. The haganai was organized by the Zionist organization. And at the same time the Arab myths about this violence is it was a heroic rising of the masses and in their minds and it it overlooks the fact that they were inadequate in in leading any kind of effective political movement that that organized the masses. So and these myths abound in almost every aspect of the history of this. When some clearer version of what's really involved in in the conflict process emerges hopefully there will be groups of thinkers on both sides who are willing to conceive of a common solution that can satisfy Jewish cultural aspirations and constitutional rights while at the same time allowing the Palestinian Arabs to exercise their inherent right to self-determination in the country where they live for all of these centuries. That was Mariah Lynn loonstyn a political science professor at the University of Minnesota. We now have two people in the studio with us know, how is Melinda. Kautz? Winston talked about the. From the early 20th century until the 1948 War when so many Palestinian Arabs left the country know how you live through that. And left the country at that point. Could you tell us something about the Palestinian Exodus what happened during that. Well, I was really very young at the time and it is hard now to really make clear in my mind what part of it. I remember personally and what part of it is distilled from what my parents have been talking about him with the Palestinians have been talking about for the last 29 years, but the memory of the exit this is very very Vivid in the consciousness of every bit of stinging in 1948. When the state of Israel was created. And the Israeli Army began. Occupying one Arab Village after the other there was a great deal of confusion in the Grady of panic and particularly after the deliberate effort to terrify and stir panic and hysteria into the you know, the Palestinian civilians following the Darius seeing Massacre. Which Israeli Prime minister at Meghan has this very proud to be credited for that about 250 women and older men and children were massacred their bodies dumped into Wells and the Oregon gangs went around the countryside with big microphones declaring that you know, if the Arabs not flee their Villages, they would suffer the same fate as their developers tinian sindarius in a cut a moon did that and of course all the civilians in the farmers in the peasants naturally terrified was very very traumatic. Can they all took refuge in the borders of Palestine? Remember Palestine is really very tiny strip of geography in it. When you say the board as he ran to the borders. It isn't like the United States here in are you you have a concept of country is something But they all walked on foot escaped, but we call our exit as they were uprooted and and they all escaped some of them and it landed in the Egypt, Lebanon Cemetery has how many what has come to be Jordan today hours. We we ended up in in Egypt. when my father YouTube on University education that he had had was able to make a very comfortable living in Alexandria where I grew up most of my life, but of course the bulk of the population were farmers who had lived off the land and having the land taken away from them. There is very little else that they can do when they were trapped in what has come to be known today as the refugee camps and they have been for the past 29 years. So you can imagine the degree of bitterness that those Palestinians field. Could you talk a little bit about your experience living as an exile in a foreign country growing up that way? Well one thing has to be made clear. I think at the outset and it this is contrary to what most people think if it had not really been for the assistance that the Arab countries have given to the Palestinians. I really don't think the Palestinians would have been able to survive as a nation. Of course, there are degrees and there are very many different regimes and many things have occurred within the past 29 years, but I think basically we really have to come to terms with this basic fact. This is that the Arab countries have given a lot of Persistence of the Palestinians. I have grown up in Egypt all my life and I was I never felt an outcast we were foreigners. We're always treated as foreigners, but then you have to remember that we did not want to assimilate we really did not want to be a considered Egyptians had to keep the culture that you know, even though Palestine cease to exist as a political entity, you know it continue to exist in the collective consciousness of the Palestinians. Palestine was very much alive in our Consciousness and our household. If there's no question, you know, we all grew up in the old merrida gyptians all five of us, but there was Question that ours was a Palestinian household in our culture the music that either the Poetry the the even the dialect. We we communicated mostly with Palestinians in Exile like ourselves and who really did not want to assimilate we were treated with a great deal of regard. They many of the Palestinians in Egypt went to schools and end higher education free of charge. They were never charged for tuition or anything like that. There is giving scholarships and similar conditions existed all over the Arab world, but with various degrees Now later on when the PLO began to emerge as a major political power in the region, of course, it was a great deal of conflict with the right the streams, you know, the PLO has a leftist leaning and all reddicl groups when they first start you don't have to wait on the left in some way or Manner and there are very many right decisions such as can cut scene in Jordan the the weird political situation that exists in Lebanon and so forth. And of course the PLO begin to come in conflict with Arab countries, and there are very many various. Reports which I know they do exist, but I have not experienced in Egypt, but I know that they do exist the in Lebanon in particular and in Jordan. They were not always treated as first-class citizens. Nodame if you were born in Israel before it was Israel. What do you remember about that. About the formation of the Israeli state is a very young child. I don't remember much of the beautiful fat 47 48 49. I do remember how everyone is beautiful going up, June 15th and 16th. Marianna and Johnston talks about the myths that have been developed. Food throughout the years one of the meats for instance. Was affected we will. Educators, we were told Swansea if it has never been mentioned joins it. Because the leadership Austin to clean the leadership in Arab countries surrounding Palestine. Is different bolt castings coming forms. I'm a gun from the country's it works. It has been done and can be checked in the British museum in London. That wasn't the case. In fact many leaders called on Palestinian Arabs to remain in Palestine. the truth started to surface only later when Palestine Arab started to describe exactly what was going on in villages in Towns how Israeli armed Israeli Armed Forces? It simply came in many cases and told him to leave the gun point in other cases many villages or form is asked to leave The Villages. Do appointment 222 at 1 to The Villages is a pharmacist has never materialized. I've never materialized. That is what we got to say is an exodus of the Palestinian Arabs from Palestine. It must be stressed you however many Palestinian Arabs in Palestine. An interesting aspect about it now. 600000 people and who remained in what became later of the state of Israel? many of them I will never receive Israeli citizenship due to a legal system that was enacted by Israeli Parliament It will buy by Stan out of school left Villages during a specific. Of time into other villages in The Villages and weekends are both of the state of Israel will not allowed to become Israeli citizens and then fill today's out are referred to as absentee presents both of you and Yvonne. I believe, you know, something about this to of about the treatment of the Palestinians is in Israel in end the end of fears of the of the Jews legitimate fears. I'm sure that led to the formation of of the Israeli State nadaf. You are Jewish. What it what is your perception on that was never feel Whether atoms will exterminate Jews became and me later on and had good grounds. Good reasons to become an me that was due to to become a belief. It was nothing. At the end of the establishment of the state of Israel. Defeat of Arabs is such an important aspect of life. Is it feels a designer? Organization in the state of Israel have been perpetrating is a few of Exterminating Jews regardless of the Exterminator maybe as long as he's not in June. Anne's idea was everybody's against us in a 1852 single kind of me or similar kind of feelings it. Is being developed in South Africa will buy the africanos and we all ran. Gear 2 2 2 what fears were they reacting were the Jews reacting to then were they reacting to treatment that have been given them in Europe? When the fears have been perpetrated perpetrated by Zionist movement was based on the field. Anti-Semitism by mail in Europe was very live, and the result of which was the Holocaust of the second World War. However, this fear was developed by a minority within the Jewish Community must use today in his well-being about 55 to 60% of them. I've never been to you all came from North Africa and the other countries in the Middle East. Is everything exposed to the sun will feel perpetrated by design of European origin? It was a good ground after the second World War II perpetrate this fear based on the Holocaust. So there were some real grounds for fear some real roots of here alive and well exterminated. But no but no Jews were exterminated in the Arab world. You're dealing with two different geographical areas. One is industrial industrialized you are the other is the Arab world, which Has little to do or had little to do with the kind of attitudes. Hand by Europeans with the time and how do you feel about that? Well, I think it's interesting to note that Israel has all but if the PLO would only stop ex raids and if the Arabs in the occupied territory would stop there what they call sabotage which is strikes and demonstrations until 4, but there would be no need for depression and perhaps so but I find that very odd and unreasonable not to expect the Palestinians to react to an alien military occupation in the same way and manner that any other people in the world would react here in the west of the French Resistance to German occupation is that you don't really like a very big deal out of that the little bit of fudge. So I can resistance to that Russian occupation is really build up to be something great. And it's in the same way. You don't expect you know, you deny that's right to resist to the Palestinians. I find that very odd unless their implication here is the Palestinians are not capable of any Brave act or a patriotic feelings. And you know, it is very normal for the Palestinians to react to an alien occupation. It might be interesting to talk about the PLO and the Palestinian resistance. I have read that there was a great deal of racism involve both in in the forming of the state of Israel is the fact that the British in the United States away from the Middle East and that's not the only reason that it was formed but that but that was a factor and then the Discrimination of the Palestinians by The Jews and and other countries as well. I think when when Americans think about the PLO the synonymous with terrorism, you know that that term is not apply to menahem Beggin always but it is fine to right now. rack and pinion is very proud of the number of volumes the history of the ones below me what you can find in every library in his line in which Act of terrorism not only against the British mandate but acts of terrorism against civilian albums in marketplaces. In homes Etc in villages this act of all out. Clearly described and Menachem begin and the organization which represents the fit would it movement within silicone really proud of these apps infect the body needs in his autobiography the Revolt. He described the case of Gloria sane and probably says that because of diarrhea scene Arabs flee flee the country and because of the area seen, we reached a certain stage in history, which we aim to is very proud of that. You know, it's really a question of semantics. It depends very much on which side you're on your either terrorist or Freedom Fighter which side of the coin and Israel, of course when I'm begging is a freedom fighter of the first degree and he has risen to become Prime Minister on the other side. If I'd is condemned as a terrorist and that's the way it's the way the cookie crumbles. What do you know about know about about the the PLO it it's been interesting to me again to read first of all that the fact that that no real resistance was formed until the 50s or 60s. I'm I am I correct even though this has been going on for decades. Why was it so hard while you have to realize that the 1948 Exodus was such a traumatic experience for the Palestinian people. It was really very very traumatic and it took us from 1948 to the late fifties to really realize that the world powers are not going to do anything to help that the United Nations isn't going to do anything to help. That even nicer with all his promises of pan-arabism and so forth by the late 50s early 60s the doors a separation the unity United Arab Republic between Egypt and Syria, which the Palestinians had put Great Hopes, you know on that this is this was going to be our Salvation Arab Unity and master has always promised that you know, he would restore Palestine to its rightful owners and so forth and then we were really disillusioned and truly the Palestinians. Also you have to remember that because of the trauma they were not all concentrated in one area, which would have made it very easy to regroup and organize and so forth, but they were dispersed all over the world in order. They they landed on different boundaries and they had to be within the jurisdiction of the different host countries as we call them in Syria, Lebanon Egypt. And in order to make a living some had to go to the you know Quaid and and and and Saudi Arabia and so forth and then all over the world South America Africa the United States so that the Palestinians were really disappear if they were spread all over the world and then we really could not believe that the United Nations in the world powers were going to really completely Overlook our flight. We couldn't leave the beginning that's really somebody is going to extend a helping hand and when we became just realize that that was not going to happen then we really began to organize and that The PLO was established in 1964 and contrary to would very many people believe that the allowed to be at Commando organization. It is not the PLO is a quasi-government of the Palestinian people. It is the general organizational framework within which different Palestinian organizations meet to discuss and work towards achievement of Palestinian national goals, the ultimate of course being repatriation in Palestine the PLO consists basically of the National Council and it's important that I elaborate a little bit on this National Council consists of about 155 members and they represent a cross-section of the Palestinian people prominent posting individual representatives from Commander tubes trade unions professional organizations women organization student organization even Palestinians in Exile. Europe and the United States all of those consist of the National Council which constitutionally is the supreme authority of the PLO and act as a parliament in Exile from the National Council 15 members are elected to form the executive committee, which is the cabinet in Exile. And you know, if one of the 15 is elected to be chairman, which is comparable to a prime minister and Exile. So it is not, you know, I could command organizations by anyway, you know, it's it's it's representatives of a broad cross-section of Palestinians from all walks of life and gained legitimacy first and foremost from the Palestinian people themselves, even the Palestinians in the occupied territory have seldom went on strike and demonstrated in support of the PLO. And then of course it PLO was endorsed by the Arab states after their abroad Conference of 1974, and then finally the United Nations. Compare the jacuzzi on the Palestinian struggle by officially recognizing the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian people. It's interesting. It's something in a job that you may want to comment on to the impression. I get from reading the American papers is that the PLO does not represent anyone really in your concert for hearing about terrorist or its difference between what actually is happening in wishful thinking Jimmy 104 105 countries have officially recognized the POS or representative of the Palestinian people with the exception of United States and Israel. And you know, if that this is not reflect the fact that the United States does not recognize the PLO does not truly reflect on the PLO. You describe the coming together in presenting a unified front. What do I have made this progress possible in the last few years because I have read about problems like of the PLO while representing the Palestinian people. Conflicts with different Arab governments. Well at the PLO, of course being the National Council in its effort to eat to maintain democracy and to really represent the Palestinians of course has to represent a very wide viewpoints and there are very many different Commando groups that are represented in the National Council of the PLO know these Commander groups not do not necessarily agree with each other like the popular front order the fatta the other groups, they don't they have different ways of solving the problem, but the fact remains that they are all represented in the the National Council. So there is room for dissenting opinions within the National Council, but that is of course in order to maintain necessary in order to maintain democracy. So I went when the Commando groups differ among each other. It is in the National Council of the PLO that they need to discuss these different viewpoints. And of course, why would anybody expect 3 million Palestinians to all have one single ideology in one single group, you know, it's the opinion this never happens in anywhere else. The fact that the PLO comes in conflict with other countries is of course as I stated earlier. With the emergence of the PLO as a force to reckon with it is inevitable that it should come in conflict with you know, right extra jeans and you know different political institutions in the Arab world. I wonder if we could go back to a point that we just touched on briefly earlier and that is what life is like for Arabs in the country of Israel in the occupied territories for the Palestinian Arabs know what kind of Lies do they live in Israel? I would like to come in tonight and almost complete segregation. Inheritance in the legal system of the state of Israel and give an example to illustrate what they mean. So 95% of the land. And which was part of the state of Israel until June 67. Is owned by the Jewish National Fund and the state of Israel legally. Non-jews, that is to say Palestinian. Arabs are not allowed to live on that land. I'm not allowed to bicycle and I'm not allowed to Lisa's land. You find segregation in separation or xanax type of apartheid in terms of housing in terms of Education. Antique 66 was in. What was in power in Israel? switch defense emergency regulations will play Stephane Palestinian Arabs inside is one freedom of movement was not was not existence. A political Freedom was non-existence the kind of education that those people received was a kind of education which completely disregarded. the history of Arabs in Palestine at the same time out of pupils had to stand. Everyday sings in Israeli scientist anthem. referring to Jews only these are the kind of things that I'm so going soon. I'm not allowed to work wherever they wish all of the loud to to associate with people. I wish to associate what's going on in the conquered territories. Over 6767. It's pretty much the same kind of situation where we land confiscation. deportations destructions of houses don't see the Palestinian Arabs also face problems. In other Arab countries. Are they equal citizens in Jordan for instance or in Lebanon or how do they live in in my view in my view by no means are equal citizens part of the reason is new house and is the feeling of belonging to Palestine not to Egypt note to Syria Noto to Iraq. But the state of Israel looks at itself. is European Enclave in the Middle East which European attitudes European political system European cultural life and so on and so phone. exactly the standard Well, let's measure. treatment of Amazon Design Studio according to this standard according to this stand-up Arabs remain to be a third class citizens in the state of Israel and design is glass a Note II simply because Jules of North African and Middle East origins of being put down slightly less than atoms, but they're being put down by Design stuff. So it is well European. Juice place in 1969. I believe that the Palestinians does not exist as people in there for Israel had a perfect right to come in and an occupied that land Nadal have you lived in Israel until 1971? Is that correct? Or was it like for you? What what did you think living there? When I was conditions for many years. 2 Believe with Golda Meir believe then she sincerely believe in what you sent until I started opening my eyes and trying to look at things in an objective as possible primarily of the 67 war on June the 67 War. Asking a simple question. Why? This conflict exists what's going on here? I was conditioned to believe that the Arabs infect you with those are good apps and Van Damme's does when engine is well and good ABS just left the country of this, isn't it? daily daily kind of off expressions and I simply started to ask him to ask questions which Walk me to the conclusion that first it's not right not on any other human being to decide about the other human beings. Moreauville, it became very clear to me why you said what you said And Golda Meir said it only in a symbolic way. What you said really has been in existence all along it is well well by the Palestinian Arab people is not recognized by the Israeli government. By the way, the government has a Palestinian Arabs as individual, but not as if people Weezer white of a distinct Community political and social life So it wasn't incidental what she said. What is well exactly this way government. Thanks. It was it. an attempt to justify design Stadium an idea which to summarize in one sentence is a colonial settler settle oil in Palestine. It's similar. In essence to Colonial rule in odesia. It's similar in a sense to Colonial settlers in Australia Hospital due to the situation in South South Africa. It's been suggested that the formation of the state of Israel has kind of an ironic effect in the in the it's it doesn't ultimately benefit even the Jewish people and maybe you could react to a quote that an early Jewish leader had written in the in the 1890s. I'll head home could favor to buy national state of Arabs and Jews rather than just a Jewish State and he wrote in the 1890s and I quote a Jewish state would be poison for our nation and drag it down into the dust or small state would never attain a political power worthy of the name for it would be but a football between its neighbors. That's we should become a small and low people and spiritual servitude. Looking With Envy toward the mighty fist. How would you react to that in a dog? Barcelona Zionist movement is the most liberal and sector in this movement of the lamps. He was at and I'm saying it in a negative way simply because he's concerned was primarily concerned of Jews. None others bites, but the Jews I would like to answer you. Even if Palestine hypothetically was empty of human beings was empty of atoms Zionism would still be an unjustified. Ideology and unjustified movement state of state would be unjustified I'm saying, it's simply because Johnny's is it is it that I have been to Palestine in apps but Zionism sealed has served for many years. It would which way which is beyond inflicted on Palestinian Arabs for instance Zionism in the real way served. European Inns in North American imperialism throughout the world penetration into Africa was done match with help and assistance of Jainism to Illustrated for instance. Idi Amin Dada who today's today controls Uganda Go to Power by Zionism. Which assistance of the CIA just one example has nothing to do with the Arab world has nothing to do with Palestine in arms. was created by middle-class Jews by Mary of Eastern Europe In order to settle in to colonize Palestine they had to have cheap labor. Eventually the board this ship label in the form of Jews from North Africa and the Middle East. Even if it was enough, but it's Dean and Alex in the area that cheap cheap label would have been bored over to Palestine and this cheap labor is today leaving as a second-class citizen despite the fact that these are Jews. Suzanne is Willie's not the solution to Judaism of the Jewish pop music political movement. Which is no justification with respect to anyting is the fact that Hitler exterminate The Six Million Jews any defense it's used as a defense equations, please the extermination of Jews in World War is often used as a rational or defense or at least sign is in his understandable. Do you agree with that? You know, I do know that I don't believe it's a problem of anti-Semitism in the industrial world. Can be solved. Phone number for anti-Semitism and should be solved wherever they exist whatever Jews live. Whatever Jews belong to if American Jews for instance realistic, where is anti-Semitism has to be combated within the context of North America. Why should I why should people Which is nothing to do with the events, which are taking place in North America the Palestinian Arab people. Why should Saint be? Is it wants to pay the price for anti-Semitism existing in the industrial world? To get back to your question. It's very clear in my mind that two wrongs can never make a right to know what Hitler did to the Jews was wrong absolutely wrong. But what did you stand around and get to the Palestinians is equal to wrong. And so that is no justification at all and to return to your earlier question. I I really don't think that Israel can ever have simply has no chance to exist as a progressive Society under normal peaceful relations with its neighbors and yet that would seem to me as the only justification for the result that of any country in the whole in the world and yet Israel with all its power and the powerful influence of its allies has failed to achieve that status and I think that this is very very significant that for the 29 years of its existence since 1948 Israel. It still has not had a single day of peace and is still at war with every single one of its neighbors and if that is an indication that whatever philosophy the Israeli government is based upon has failed it and filled it drastically that it is really self-defeating and futile in the long run to a perpetuate that and yet the big game government is advocating pretty much no more of the same the exertion of pressure by sheer force knowing only too well that they will only breathe hatred and bitterness in the Arab conquered Arabs two ingredients that can never guarantee. Peace in the future. And yet it's it goes on and how long will it take for the Israeli government to realize that Injustice can never be erased by the passage of time and that the only single Assurance for peace would be acceptance by the Palestinians and that can only be done by correcting the ingested the in justices that were committed against them and by restoring the right to self-determination cuz any patched a piece that deals with boundary disputes alone is not going to put an end to the conflict because sooner or later the Israelis are going to seek to expand in order to ensure security code and code and in their turn the Palestinians are going to seek to break in to ensure Justice and you know, unless they they they they they see that for what it is. That would be the only alternative. What do the two of you see us the possibilities for finding a solution to Problem in the Middle East and you must have an interesting perspective living in the United States and one of the Hallmarks of the Middle East has been great power manipulation and involvement and so far. I miss you sing one one which deals with the basic rules of the conflict, which I see it as the existence of Zionism in Palestine. Note 2 State solution estate estate is a Palestinian Arabs no Confederation of Falafel Direction with the kingdom the hashemite kingdom kingdom of Jordan and we danced to this question in my view. The question is Zionism that Zionism continue to exist there or not designist institutions can continue to exist there or not my view if one does not come to this basic question one cannot into don't go on. So the question therefore what I would suggest, okay, what's the question in terms of Palestine allowing Palestine and Albert few G's to return to their Homeland. And establish a society where by each ethnic cultural group. Will freely exercise its own culture throughout Palestine. And who says that Palestinians and Israelis cannot agree. I agree 100%, And was never to throw the Jews into the sea as the Zionist propaganda machine it in. This country wishes you to believe that the PLO and the Palestinian objective is to dismantle design State structure never to exterminate its people and that is what the doctor said to design eyes Israel. And of course to allow the Palestinians to return not a citizen but as you know equal citizens and that could only be done if Israel would cease to regard to tell that exclusively Jewish cuz I can never be a first-class citizen in the country that declares itself exclusively Jewish and believe me that we we all realize the Palestinians realize that this Google can never be achieved without the active participation of the Jewish messes themselves who hopefully will work towards ridding themselves of the scientist racist ideology. I would like to ask and we're running out of time and that's frustrating but about the United States role. I'm running a story on the news at noon today which speculates that four hundred pounds of bomb grade uranium was diverted to Israel by the CIA. We have menahem bacon elected president. We have Cyrus Vance running around the Middle East trying to get a Geneva peace conference together. What are your impressions of all this doesn't surprise me to 73 the first few days for minister at the time defense minister of the state of Israel was about to use It's at time Atomic weapons, which is well. Has and had at the time the food does not surprise me that I would believe this is a last resort designer establishment in his wife will not hesitate to use Atomic weapons. Which just suggest to me again and again? Is there is no way to approach this question without dealing with Zionism NY Zionism in the area would resort to these memes. Of course. It's needless for me to tell you that it is an absolute Madness in the first degree to continue exporting military hardware in atomic weapons. And what have you and dinner in our area region of the world that is so explosive. It it's it's crazy and it's just this crazy to continue pretending the 3-minute Palestinian do not exist and it is just as crazy to view the whole Middle East conflict as a kind of a sucker's game that whoever the smarter is going to The smarter you play that game the more you're going to win. It's it's it's Madness whereas the solution is. So simple just to come to terms with the fundamental human elements of the conflict is really the key to solving it do the two of you see any signs. Is there anything hopeful going on for a settlement between the two communities to live together in peace Professor Winston talked about needing to divest ourselves of Missin and having to have each side recognize the legitimate aspirations of the other side and start talking to each other. Do you see hopeful signs, please answer quickly cuz we're almost out of Data Solutions. Nobody's going to pretend that, you know overnight we're going to hug and kiss makeup and everything is going to be fine. This is really a very ultimate long-range term what we are talking about the idea. Solution that offers pluralistic second or Palestine where Jews Christians and Muslims, we live together a respected or phrase color and religion. This is our ultimate goal. But I think we realized that in order to attain that goal. We have to go through very many transitional phases along the path of funeral out of the ultimate liberation of Palestine and I think the fact that the United Nations has recognized officially recognized the PLO the fact that the President Carter is mentioning in mentioning the Palestinians and I hope we'll have the guts and and the courage to recognize the PLO perhaps even a creating up at a separate Palestinian state in the occupied West Bank and Gaza are all hopeful signs and you know beginning steps world of time. I'm sorry. Thank you very much noise mail Palestinian Exile in the constant Israeli Citizen and Yvonne Pearson for joining me. I'm Debbie Gage. You should stay tuned next week for another low. Break away and stay tuned for divorce, which is coming up next.


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