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OMAR WHITAKER: All these small towns up and down this whole line. I can always go someplace in one of those towns and know somebody, because I've lived here long enough and been affiliated with enough things that, well, they're all just the same.

Hi. You're from Dunn Center. I remember you, and that's the way it goes. You know them. You've known them for so much of their life that you almost know which way they're going to turn the next time.

SPEAKER: That's Omar Whitaker, a resident of Dunn Center, North Dakota. We'll hear more from Mr. Whitaker and others about the implications of knowing your neighbor well, in this program titled Our Hometown, Dunn Center, North Dakota. This is one in a series of programs which explores the character of small town life, produced by Minnesota Public Radio Station, KCCM, with funds from the North Dakota Committee for the Humanities and Public Issues.

Dunn Center is a small community of 107 people, located in the ranching country of Western North Dakota, near the Little Missouri River. In recent years, the town has been losing population, its school, and many of its businesses.

Most Dunn Center residents agree that unless the rich lignite beds, which surround the town, are mined for coal gasification, the town will dry up and blow away like tumbleweed. But with coal development, the community might become an unruly boomtown, so residents are caught between slow decline on one hand and frantic change on the other.

In the first part of our program, we'll hear how Dunn Center residents view coal development and the impact it would have on their way of life and bond with the land. We'll also experience the Western nature of the region's lifestyle.

We begin as old timers, Sherman McConnell and Kendall Thompson, tell us about the town's history. The interviewer is John Ydstie.

SPEAKER: I was here before Dunn Center was formed and originated. Well, in 1906, my parents moved from Grand River, Iowa, and Homesteaded, 13 miles south here. So we came here in 1906, and I think it was around about 1913 or '14, somewhere around there when Dunn Center. So I was a fairly good sized boy when Dunn Center was started.

Now, originally, it was about a mile East, and then they moved it over here. Well, of course, that was just the beginning of the homestead days. And prior to that, oh, yes, there was people living here. They was mostly all cattle ranchers, horse ranches, a few horses, but no fences outside of an occasional horse pasture, for saddle horses, or once in a while, there'd be a bull pasture or something like that.

But beyond that, well, there was no fences, no roads, just trails across the prairie, wherever you want to make or have a road while you started out. And they would all get together a few of the neighbors and throw a few rocks in the creek so you could make a crossing. But there was no roads or nothing like that, no fences. Well, then, of course, then they had this influx of homesteaders. And--

JOHN YDSTIE: Was it exciting to see a town spring up?

SPEAKER: It's exciting. Well, I'll tell you something now. Yes, I suppose so. You might say so. See, that is all depends on. But they had a kind of a hairy reputation, nuns in particular.

JOHN YDSTIE: Why?

SPEAKER: Well, they just did, that's all.

JOHN YDSTIE: What kind of reputation? [CHUCKLES]

SPEAKER: Well, according to the stories that was told, where there's a lot of them, their morals weren't too high. So--

JOHN YDSTIE: Was it a Wild West town?

SPEAKER: Oh, well, not in that, no. No, no killings here in Dunn Center that I can recall anyhow.

JOHN YDSTIE: A railroad town.

SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE]. Well, it wasn't really a railroad town. No, it was just a business. It was quite a few businesses. And well, I guess, a few of the women are a little on the wild order and stuff like that. But no, there was not right around here, there wasn't any killings or anything like that. Probably, a lot of them felt like killing them, but then they didn't do it, anyhow.

1911, I was 10 years old then. And where we lived, it was 65 miles to Dickinson, the closest railroad town. And that was the big chore of them days, those that raised wheat. It took them four days, sometimes, to go to town with a load of wheat, 60 bushel of wheat, and sell it for 60 cents a bushel. [CHUCKLES]

My folks were only going to stay here three years and prove up their homestead and go back to Wisconsin. And of course, they never did. But at the time we come, quite a few of them here had been here long enough to prove up, but they couldn't because they didn't have no water on the place. You were supposed to improve these places, them days.

Then there was a family on your average quarter section of land then, where now, it's only his family on several sections. [CHUCKLES] My dad got the idea to dig wells out here. So he went back down to Wisconsin and bought an old well outfit, and shipped it out here, and started digging wells. And here we are, still at it. One of my boys now, the third generation.

JOHN YDSTIE: Who were the first people out in this area? Do you know?

SPEAKER: Well, Bill Connolly would be one of them. Rasmus Jensen, up North of Killdeer. The old ranchers. And then there was some Peltons in here. The Pelton out there, there were sheep ranchers in Conley and Jensen. They were cattle and horse ranchers.

JOHN YDSTIE: There was no town of Dunn Center when you came.

SPEAKER: Oh, no, no. No sign of a town or heard of it. The Great Northern was already starting to build a railroad up here along the Little Missouri at that time. But they quit too soon and started this branch, which was supposed to have went on west farther, you know?

But the cars and the trucks come right away then, and they never went any farther and killed her. They hadn't caught up then, you see. See, the first train in here was in '14, wasn't it? I think.

Yeah, he had a big celebration in town here that day, I remember that. They had a town about every so many miles, along the railroad track. In them days, when you went to town with horses, you didn't care which town you went to, you went to the closest one. [CHUCKLES]

JOHN YDSTIE: When was its best times? When was the heyday of Dunson?

SPEAKER: Oh, I don't know. I suppose, it maybe was in the '20s, as far as I could see. And then again, in the '40s, after the war. We had three lumber yards here, and we had two livery barns, two blacksmiths, two shoemakers, three grocery stores. Why was that a little later? I don't just remember.

And a couple of pool halls and bowling alley, butcher shop, and two banks. Yeah. They were both standing here and both the bank buildings, one is post office now. And the other is Gus Minsted's shop down there. Every family had a cow, so they had picketed around town on a rope, 10 days that they shipped cattle out and killed her.

Well, I remember when they chased that cattle from the reservation to Dickinson. That was a big celebration in them days. All them cattle, horseback. And as soon as they got the cattle loaded on the cars by then, the riders would all celebrate.

Yeah, we used to get a bang out of that. And then everybody, of course, was watching to see that their milk cow wouldn't get in their bunch and go with them. [CHUCKLES]

[COWS MOOING]

SPEAKER: Ho, ho, ho, ho. [VOCALZING]

One of my greatest thrills was when you're talking about these cattle drives. When I was 14 years old, one rancher asked me to go to work for him, Jim Conley. And I went over on the reservation, and that's where I really enjoyed my summers. I was over there for five summers while I was going to school. When he asked me to go to work for him, I just jumped with joy. Yup.

We'd meet at some camp, up there on the reservation. And the cowboys, they'd come from every camp. They all meet at this one place. We'd meet one day, and then the next day, the roundup would start. We'd have the chuck wagon, and we have a cook. Oh, I suppose, there's about 50 riders, maybe.

And then there was one boss of the roundup. His name was Ed Kennedy. And he told you where to go in the mornings, what circle to ride. I remember, one time, we started riding at 2 o'clock in the morning. And we got back to the chuckwagon that night at 6:00, and nothing to eat. We rode all day and branded calves. Yeah.

Then I remember, we rode one day, and the next night, it started raining. And it rained for three days. And we were sleeping outside. I know, me and another kid were sleeping outside in the roundup bed. And our bed was all wet. And it was three days, I never took my clothes off, it was just wet continually. But you just kept on riding. You didn't do any branding while it was raining, but you kept on riding. And after it cleared up, well then, you'd brand. But I really enjoyed it, I really did.

SPEAKER: That was a big day when we chased cattle to town to have them loaded out or the cattle come across the reservation. We just live for that, and follow them on in, and watch them load, and the train take off.

SPEAKER: I believe, Dunn Center was one of the biggest shipping points as far as cattle in this area. We lived right next to the Connally ranch, and that's where they would have their three or four-year-old steers overnight.

And then as kids, I can remember, we would sit in the window of the garage and watch the cowboys ride by in bunches. And we just waited for that day. And I think all three of us, brothers, were thought, that's the life for us too, and we'd see those cowboys go by. And we thought that cattle business sure had it over on the farm.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do you consider yourself a cowboy now?

SPEAKER: Well, I'd guess so. I ride the horses and have spurs and shops like they had. I couldn't wait till I got my first hat and spurs. And the first $8 I got, that's what I bought.

Then next came a pair of boots. I was wearing some more odd boots, and I thought, the cowboy boots, the high heels that one of the cowboys had, and about four sizes too big, but I really enjoyed them.

[CHUCKLES]

JOHN YDSTIE: How big is your ranch now?

SPEAKER: Well, we run about 300 cows here. Acres, it's about 4,200 and at least some.

JOHN YDSTIE: What's a typical roundup like now?

SPEAKER: You load your horse and take it up to the pasture. And we ride for a day or so, and it's about all over with. Yeah.

JOHN YDSTIE: All the pastures are fenced?

SPEAKER: That's right. Yeah.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do you enjoy it as much this way?

SPEAKER: Yeah. As long as I'm getting older and stuff, it's a lot easier. [CHUCKLES]

JOHN YDSTIE: You wouldn't want to spend four days riding the reservation.

SPEAKER: No. No, I still would, you bet. Yeah. Like when we bring our cows home from the breaks, we ride for four days. Oh, yeah.

[COWS MOOING]

[VOCALIZING]

Upstairs. Upstairs.

[COWS MOOING]

JOHN YDSTIE: What do you like about this country?

SPEAKER: What do I like about it? Well, I don't know. I guess, I like everything about it, or else, I wouldn't be here. [CHUCKLES] No, I like all of that. I've traveled and stuff. In my book, there's nothing like Western North Dakota.

JOHN YDSTIE: Is there a special feeling about the land?

SPEAKER: Well, call it a special feeling or not, but you want to save your land. I always want that farm life. If it starts to erode, or wash, or something, I like to do something about it and take care of it. And I don't know, there is a feeling. I don't know how to explain it, but there is a feeling working with your land. I can't put no words to it right now, but it's a satisfaction of some kind there.

SPEAKER: It's your hills. It's your rolling prairies out in front of you. It's a satisfaction that you can go across there, and nobody can tell you to get out. And you can do whatever you want to with it and some of these things that you just-- and there's a warm feeling, and you enjoy it because it belongs to you.

And the things that are there, the trees, some things have special meaning because certain things have happened with you or your family in these areas and things like this that, through the years, they become more meaningful and more-- the old swimming hole, and the place that you fished so many times and some of these things, they just become a part of you and a part of your life, and you feel a closeness towards them.

JOHN YDSTIE: You take the Badlands to somebody might be just playing Badlands, but to us, it's something that nobody else has. And it's a beautiful cattle country. And it means the whole world to us. And we feel, we don't necessarily need somebody to reshape or redo our land out here. We feel that, as it was, coming generation was good enough for us, and we're all happy at it and with it.

SPEAKER: I always miss the killdeer mountains on the horizon when I'm away. I enjoy getting out and roaming around over the countryside. And there's lots of Sundays We'll? Just take off and just drive, just go around.

There had been some country down South here that I hadn't been over for 15 years. So this fall, away we went, just to renew it and see it. And it's funny how it has changed. There's farms that were there that aren't there now anymore, and fences that have been moved, and fields that have grown up back into pasture. So the land is always changing. No matter who's around or who's on it, there's always something changing about it. So it's an experience to get out and get next to it.

If we compare it to Iowa, or Illinois, or Ohio, or Indiana, there's a large percentage of the land that is farmed in, say, the Corn Belt states is tenant farming, or leased, or rented. Whereas the land here, a large majority of it, and I think in the state of North Dakota, South Dakota, probably, Montana too, is still within the family that homesteaded it or originally purchased it, so that there is this family tie to the land.

And I think that knowing that your grandfather, as trite as it sounds, sweated his brow and walked behind the horses while he plowed the sod and everything, I think that you get back to the tradition and everything. It's something that you brought up with.

You saw it when you were little. You saw your fathers and your grandfathers working hard and everything, and you keep on working. And you know that if you can improve on something they did, there's a great satisfaction in knowing that you can get more bushels per acre on a piece of land than they did. I think, here, this is your creativity and everything else for their life here.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do people have a special feeling for the land, for nature, for the environment out here?

SPEAKER: Yes. Especially now, since the idea or the plans are for coal gasification, I guess that's the big thing on everybody's mind. And it's probably the big thing on my mind too is you probably gather once in a while to bring it up.

But when you take, and stand, and look out at the hills, and realize that maybe in 10 or 15 years, they won't be there anymore, and you've grown up with them, they've been there, your forefathers have been there, my relatives came and settled this country or this community around here. There's a Clay Butte on our land, only half a mile to the East over here. And you realize that thing's going to be gone, maybe, if they come through.

Well, it's been a landmark there, Clay Butte. I mean, you read that in some of the old history books of this area. It's been a landmark. It's been there, and it's going to be gone. And that bothers you. It bothers me.

JOHN YDSTIE: If they came through, and mined the coal, and put the land back, would it be the same?

SPEAKER: No. Your hills wouldn't be there. The land itself wouldn't be the same. To begin with, when you mined the area and you take out 50 feet of coal and put the land back, it's going to be 50 feet lower than it was before. And what's going to happen to Spring Creek and Knife River? And these rivers are probably only 10 feet below the surface or lower than what the surrounding area is to begin with. Well, where are they going to drain into? I mean, it's going to be, to my notion, end up to be all swamp when you take out that much and settle it way down.

Reclamation is almost impossible in a semi-arid region like this, because we just about don't get enough rainfall. It has to be 10 inches or greater in order for reclamation of any kind to work. And last summer, we never even saw 10 inches of rain.

And what's going to happen? There's nothing going to grow. It has a tough time, the native grasses that have been here for, ever and ever, practically, to grow. What's going to happen after they tear it up and try to plant something else that's new to this area? I mean, I can't see how they can reclaim it.

I suppose, the good Lord put the coal there for a purpose. And I imagine that now, maybe not, but with the expectation that people would use it. So I believe, now, if they do a proper job of replacing the soils, there's no reason why it's going to entirely ruin it.

JOHN YDSTIE: How do you feel about the prospect of coal gasification around Dunn Center?

SPEAKER: I'm looking forward to it. If it's set up right, I think it's going to be very, very good for North Dakota and particularly, for Dunn Center. If the land can be worked and reclaimed, brought back to the state it was before, so it doesn't hurt the farming issue that much, I think it's going to be very good. A lot of the farmers will benefit. The town will benefit. Educational facilities will grow. I don't think it can hurt that much, like I say, if the land is brought back to where it was. It'll bring in many dollars that this community hasn't seen for a long, long time.

SPEAKER: Sure, it's hard to know how much to cook in a place like this, and how little or how much I cook, but I can eat a whole group and then maybe not too many come. Then again, we can cook, and in walks, 30.

JOHN YDSTIE: What do you ladies think about this gasification?

SPEAKER: What we think of it? I wish I knew what I should think. I don't know. I think it's all right.

SPEAKER: Did I get mixed feelings about it? I really do. The good sounds real good, but the bad sounds bad too. So not that this community couldn't stand a little bit of something like that. I said, I think we're just too small a community right now.

JOHN YDSTIE: Is there any future here if there is no coal?

SPEAKER: I said, I can't see anything else progressing.

SPEAKER: I don't believe it.

SPEAKER: I think, maybe the farmers are going to get bigger and bigger, but I said, outside of that, that's fun.

SPEAKER: I think we just have to wish for the cold to come in. If our grocery stores and our cafe are the type of storage that they should be, we wouldn't have any trouble, other than the fact that Dunn Center would never grow. I really don't think Dunn Center would ever grow, but I mean, I think the town would stay alive. But with coal, on the other hand, the town would be alive, but maybe too much, so I don't know.

I don't know what to think about this coal coming in, I really don't. They are trying to help us find out about the impact of it will be and everything, but it's really hard to realize what it will be.

JOHN YDSTIE: Will it change the quality of your life, do you think?

SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. I'm not going to let my kids run out and play without me knowing where they are? I'll probably have to tell them to stay in the yard. Not like the other night, we're coming home, there was three or four of us ladies. And we stopped, and we had one drink.

I think if there was coal gasification in the area, I don't think I would even dream of walking into a bar without my husband. And then maybe, I'd think about it. It would probably have to be entertainment in homes and things. You wouldn't feel like you could go to the bar uptown, where you know the bartender and everybody in there. No, you do. They're just like family.

JOHN YDSTIE: How do you feel, overall, about the gasification right now? Do you want to see it?

SPEAKER: No, I really don't. I'm getting too old for that. I would rather see the town. I'd like to see the population go up to about 500, but I don't like to see it go 3,000 or anything like that, because I'd be a stranger to my own town.

OMAR WHITAKER: I can't see it myself. If there's that many comes in here, there'll be so many gangsters and crooked people move in here, it won't be safe place to stay. A lot of people don't think about that. All they want to do is get a bunch of people in here. I don't know what they think they're going to do, make more money or have more fun.

Now, I suppose, there'll be a few people that will have to move. If they're going to dig coal down 150 feet all the way around your farm buildings, where there won't be no object in living there until they get the dirt pulled back in there again. And even then, it'll be lower down than it was, 20 feet of coal here, the first one you get to, roughly speaking.

SPEAKER: I don't know what effects it would have on the community. This community is so tightly knit. It's not so tightly knit that we won't let anybody else come in. We will welcome anybody who wants to come in. But I mean, if something happens, where it gets so that you can't live around here, it almost seems to me that if everybody leaves, they're going to all have to go to another spot, because we're so close that we probably can't get along without each other.

JOHN YDSTIE: What would you miss most if you had to leave Dunn Center?

SPEAKER: Friends, that daily contact with a familiar face. That would be the greatest disadvantage I could think of is that we walked down the street if we meet you on the street. You meet the next one, you say, who was that? [CHUCKLES] And everyone is acquainted. And there's a familiarity that I would miss very, very much.

SPEAKER: But in the cities, you don't even know your next door neighbor. You'd go and ask for so-and-so lived, never heard of him. Now, that's what really puzzles a person. And here, my gosh, people from somebody come and ask, you kn ow them him for 25 miles around you, where they live. And you do, don't you? I mean, you--

OMAR WHITAKER: This was strange to me in the army. We met a lot of guys from Iowa and stuff like that. And they lived 15 miles apart, and they didn't know each other. I just couldn't understand that.

For 25 miles, I think you know it'd be further than that. Wouldn't you know people? I bet, you could go to 35, 40 miles around. You'd heard of them anyway, any direction.

SPEAKER: I know us, down Minnesota one time, is we're going to go to dance one night and run out of gas. And it wasn't over 2 miles from where I started, and that was where all my relatives lived. And so I stopped there and got some gas, and they didn't know who they were. About two miles. I just couldn't hardly--

JOHN YDSTIE: Out in the country.

SPEAKER: Yeah, I was out in the country.

JOHN YDSTIE: You guys ever feel like you don't have enough privacy, that people know too much about you?

SPEAKER: Well, I think everybody knows their business.

OMAR WHITAKER: You've just got to be a little more careful what you're doing. [LAUGHTER]

SPEAKER: That's a lot of truth, though, isn't it? You mean--

OMAR WHITAKER: Everybody knows what--

SPEAKER: Yup.

OMAR WHITAKER: They all know that Gil is winning today.

SPEAKER: Pretty much around. With eight miles around [INAUDIBLE] by the list of the Cavs, though. [LAUGHS] No, but they know it.

JOHN YDSTIE: Bill, you've lived in this area and grown up with people knowing their mothers and fathers and their grandmothers and grandfathers. Do you think it's good to have that kind of knowledge of people?

BILL: Yes, I'd say it's good. I mean, people, I mean, they're your neighbors all your life. And you depend on them, and they depend on you. And they know they aren't scared to ask you for anything and same with you. You aren't scared to ask them for anything. And you'll get it, too. You get the shirt off their back if that was what you wanted.

JOHN YDSTIE: What do you think a person gains growing up in a town like Dunn Center?

SPEAKER: You gain a certain bigness, being able to understand, I think. You can be concerned about other things than just yourself. You're involved in so many other things. Here, everybody has to step in with the church, with the town, and anything that goes on.

They have to step in and help out. Otherwise, nothing's going to happen. There's a certain togetherness that grows up between the people after they've been together so long.

Most of these-- a lot of these younger farmers out in the country that I serve on my route, they almost seem like my own kids because I've known them since they went to school. And they treat me the same way. And, like today, I found a note in the mailbox. Will you throw on my switch to the water pump?

And that's the kind of stuff that goes on around. They aren't afraid to ask you, and they aren't afraid to give when you ask them. And that's the way I like it.

SPEAKER: Well, now, when we go on a trip, like down Lincoln there, the people seem friendly, too, so it's just a matter of where you're at, I think.

SPEAKER: But with Reuben, he just walks up and talks to anybody. He sees. They don't have to come to him, [LAUGHS] ask him what they're doing and where they've been.

SPEAKER: How long they're going to be gone or--

[LAUGHTER]

SPEAKER: Well, that's true. I mean, I can't stand to go down the street and just hang my head and not even look at people. I got to speak, and that's the way we were brought up, I guess.

JOHN YDSTIE: What do you think you'd miss most if you had to leave here?

SPEAKER: Well, I'd miss my neighbors and people. That's about the main thing. I mean, otherwise, your pinochle playing and your recreation. You could get that just about all over. And I'd miss the old people, the old good morning or being razzed a little everyday. I think a fella would miss that.

SPEAKER: You're listening to Our Home Town, Dunn Center, North Dakota, one in a series of programs that explores the values, concerns, and character of life in small towns. As we continue our program today, we'll experience some religious activities in Dunn Center, with a visit to a meeting of the Lutheran Church Ladies Aid. In addition, we'll sit-in on the daily pinochle game at the 200 cafe, and we'll listen as Dunn center residents tell us what it's like to watch your own town die. First, we explore the idea that people in small towns demand conformity.

JOHN YDSTIE: Some people say that small towns demand a conformity of people, that you have to live a certain lifestyle that doesn't deviate from that normal standard. Do you think that's true?

SPEAKER: Yes, you might say that. Yes. Um-hmm. I believe that we all have the same sense of morality.

SPEAKER: The ideas of people, I think, are different, in the city as in small country. The small-- the ideas of--

SPEAKER: Ideas of what?

SPEAKER: Well, just ideas of-- just general-- ideas of politics, Ideas of economics, ideas of anything. Women's lib right.

SPEAKER: What I'm talking about is when you're in a larger area with more people, then whether you want to or not, you're going to be bombarded with different ideas because there are so many people around that I don't see how you could hardly help but be-- sure, you could live very much alone but--

SPEAKER: So in other words, you're saying the difference between a small town and a large town is the diversity of ideas?

SPEAKER: Yeah, I think that's a pretty good description that in a larger population area, there's bound to be a diversity of opinion and ideas.

SPEAKER: There's a good side and a bad side to about everything. Living in the city has a lot of advantages. I've been there. You have your opportunity for education and your opportunity for open mindedness is always bombarding you.

You have to keep an open mind if you're going to be able to cope with society in a city into an area like this. You find a lot of limited or closed mind people who make change hard. And although I think you'll find that with the advent of this mass media, television, radio, and so forth and so on, it's done a lot to encourage some of the people around here to change some of the ways they look at things.

SPEAKER: I think we have more individualism out here than probably any other place. You're still an individual. You still have your own ideas. And like Yuna said, it's getting an awful lot better. You can do just about or be anything you want to. Nobody's going to say anything about it.

I mean, before, they would have, yes. As it gradually came in, and it was found out that when the person's hair was long, he was no different than when it was short. As an example, while people began to accept it. I

SPEAKER: Don't think we have any pressure to conform. You do to a certain extent, but you do in any society, any place.

SPEAKER: I don't think if it's really conformity or something. It's just like Lloyd said, there's fewer people here. And if you're a little different from somebody else, you're just notice more. And I think if a person is not really different-- that's a poor word to use.

But I don't know. Not all people are accepted as well, perhaps as they would be in a bigger city or someplace, because you can just blend in with more people up there. Here, there is kind of a certain type of people. There's no doubt about it.

SPEAKER: [LAUGHTER]

SPEAKER: I mean, if you're a pot-smoking hippie and Dunn Center, I mean, people know. People know, sure. And you wouldn't be as accepted as Joe farmer coming in with a load of wheat, that's for sure.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do you think a small town demands a certain conformity out of people because people know each other so well?

SPEAKER: Yes, I believe it. In fact, I think that you don't relax and are yourself, I think there's times that you certainly-- maybe days that you just you don't feel that you are yourself that you-- and there's times that you thoroughly enjoy then you can be yourself. Nothing wrong in what you're doing or anything, but you just don't feel that you can be you at times.

SPEAKER: Well, I don't know. I think you can be yourself if you want to, but maybe it won't go over so good.

SPEAKER: There are some consequences to it.

SPEAKER: Right. You have to answer to the consequences. Sometimes, it isn't easy, but I think if you want to be yourself, you could. You can.

SPEAKER: And there's consequences.

JOHN YDSTIE: What are the consequences, do you think?

SPEAKER: Misinterpreting your actions, probably, or misinterpreting some of the things that you-- I guess everybody's analyzing everybody else all the time, and they're not always right, always right.

SPEAKER: Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the Kingdom, and the power and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

SPEAKER: The only thing in Dunn Center is to the church that has any community affiliation with it anymore, so I suppose it is the thing.

SPEAKER: I feel very sorry for this church up here. I don't belong to it, and I'm just looking from the sidelines. But they've had some awfully good ministers up here.

SPEAKER: But the ministers here in town, if they don't find one thing wrong with them, they're going to find another thing wrong. Like that particular minister grew a beard. Well, you should have heard all the trouble that caused him because he grew a beard. Well, Jesus had a beard, too.

So I don't know. They really just-- I think the main trouble with the church up here is there's too many people that want things their own way. One minister spends too much time with the kids. The next minister doesn't spend enough time with the kids, and it's just it's just funny. They just can't seem to be pleased. I don't know why it is.

I think if there was one trouble spot in our community, it would be that church, because there's always something that makes them unhappy. And I think that's the wrong place to have trouble, but that's where it is, I think.

SPEAKER: This church's social event,

SPEAKER: In a sense, it is a social thing, because really, that's about the only thing that brings everybody to a certain place. And everybody gets together and talks and has fellowship and things. But you can't really separate social and religious because well, that's why they go there is to worship God. it brings them together with the religion.

SPEAKER: Since all these things will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people should you be? Your life should be Holy and dedicated to God as you wait for the day of God and do your best to make it come soon, the day when the heavens will burn up and be destroyed and the heavenly bodies will be melted by that heat. But God has promised new heavens and a new Earth, where righteousness will be at home, and we wait for these.

SPEAKER: If we haven't been a part of God's Kingdom on Earth, it isn't going to be the greatest joy to be there in heaven. It just isn't going to be that great. You've got time to get prepared for it.

SPEAKER: Doesn't sound like he's so great in the other place.

SPEAKER: That's certainly true.

SPEAKER: I was thinking that, maybe we had a choice.

SPEAKER: This is a bad point. If we don't get prepared for the good place, we haven't any choice.

SPEAKER: Well, we won't be in our bodily forms, so how are we going to know each other?

SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE].

SPEAKER: Well, I don't know. [INAUDIBLE].

SPEAKER: Christ came in his own body again. He was immortalized. He could go through doors and stuff, but they recognized Him.

SPEAKER: Oh, well, I'm--

SPEAKER: Are you going to have that need in heaven?

SPEAKER: If it's a perfect place, you're not going to be even wanting that. You won't be needing that even if it's paradise--

SPEAKER: Would you needing what?

SPEAKER: Needing what? You won't be needing this need to meet your loved ones, will you?

SPEAKER: Oh, if there's not going to be any loved ones, what's the use of a hereafter?

SPEAKER: Well, your life will be so beautiful that--

SPEAKER: Yeah, but I like that idea because--

[LAUGHTER]

SPEAKER: Well, in other words, everybody makes it what they want it to be. Paradise to you is one thing. Paradise to me is another thing.

SPEAKER: Well, some believe that heaven isn't a place, either. It's a state of mind.

SPEAKER: It's both.

SPEAKER: So it's however you believe, isn't it?

SPEAKER: The Kingdom of heaven is within you, but it's also a place.

SPEAKER: Oh, yes.

SPEAKER: Because didn't the Lord say I'll go and prepare a place?

SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE] Yeah.

SPEAKER: So that has to be a concrete place. I mean, it has to be something.

SPEAKER: But why does it say, look up? And it's always up, up. Well, then, there must be a place up above somewhere.

SPEAKER: He said he's going to prepare a place, so there has to be a place.

SPEAKER: Oh, I'm am sure we're going to get a place. And why does say in [INAUDIBLE]--

SPEAKER: Maybe that's a place in our heart.

SPEAKER: Jerusalem comes down.

SPEAKER: Yeah, this-- new Jerusalem, is that going to be in your heart? All those 12 gates and all that?

SPEAKER: Well--

[LAUGHTER]

[PIANO PLAYING]

["NO DISAPPOINTMENT IN HEAVEN", PLAYING]

SPEAKER: (SINGING) There's no disappointments in heaven

No weariness, sorrow, or pain

The heart parts that are bleeding and broken

No song with a minor refrain

The clouds of our earthly horizon

Will never disappear in the sky

For all will be the sunshine and gladness,

When never a sorrow or a sigh

SPEAKER: [LAUGHS]

SPEAKER: I will have some coffee, please.

SPEAKER: I'll have some coffee, too.

SPEAKER: I'm sure you would-- you will, too, won't you?

SPEAKER: Pass the coffee.

SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE]

SPEAKER: No, I don't do that.

SPEAKER: Thank you.

SPEAKER: That's hot, too.

RUBY: You know today when we were talking about the chosen people? And yesterday we talked about chosen people. but it was altogether different, wasn't it?

SPEAKER: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER: Who were chosen yesterday, Ruby?

RUBY: The Jews,

SPEAKER: The what?

SPEAKER: The Jews.

RUBY: The Jews.

SPEAKER: Oh. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER: And we come to the conclusion that there's still the chosen people because God is so good to them, but yet they don't believe in Christ. Right?

SPEAKER: Right.

SPEAKER: Right.

SPEAKER: I think they're persecuted to no end lately.

RUBY: Yes, but they're at the head of all the big businesses, and--

SPEAKER: They're persecuted by the public.

RUBY: By the public. Yeah.

SPEAKER: By the majority of people, but don't you think the Lord is still blessing them? Because they seem to prosper, for the rest of us don't.

SPEAKER: Most of those Jews are the ones that have the big incomes and own the big businesses, as you see.

SPEAKER: The Lord is blessing them all these 2000 years in one way. It seems like everything they touch turns to money.

SPEAKER: Germany weren't blessing them, really. [INAUDIBLE].

SPEAKER: The what?

SPEAKER: The ovens, when they burned all those.

SPEAKER: Right. There's always been persecution of the Jews. But still, those that are of Jewish descent still get ahead but the rest of us. Don't

SPEAKER: Didn't the Bible say that they would be persecuted as they travel the Earth?

SPEAKER: Sure, they're all in a foreign land. They're not in their own country. That's why they're persecuted.

SPEAKER: Why the Jews do not believe in God's son?

SPEAKER: It says in the Bible that he came to his own, and his own received him not. They rejected him from the very beginning.

["NO DISAPPOINTMENT IN HEAVEN", PLAYING]

SPEAKER: I'm bound for beautiful city

My Lord has prepared for his own

We're all the redeemed of all ages

Sing glory! On the White throne

Sometimes, I grow homesick for Heaven and the Lord--

SPEAKER: It's just a matter of few old people living out their last days of their life. They just reside here because they own what they sit on. It's of small value, and they live on a small pension. And I think after they're gone, there won't be nobody taking their place.

SPEAKER: Well, it's bound to lose population, I think, because many of us are older people, and there's so few businesses that the young can't stay here for that reason. They would move out, and they marry or have to find something to do.

SPEAKER: They got to go someplace else to find a job, you know? Outside of a fella that takes over his dad's business or something, or a farm.

JOHN YDSTIE: Why do you think Dunn Center has declined in the last few years?

SPEAKER: Well, I hate to say it because I love them, and that's our good roads. Because it's so easy to run to Dickinson, and we find a lot of our people doing-- especially their grocery shopping in Dickinson, their big shopping, which our little old stores need badly. And, of course, we don't have clothing here anymore. But even that, I think it has made the difference to the good roads.

JOHN YDSTIE: Could you project at all when you wouldn't-- be feasible to continue to run your grocery store?

SPEAKER: Under the present trends, another two years at the growth of inflation under the present gains, I don't see that we can stand it more than about three years.

SPEAKER: I always was a small town man, or I went out to bigger cities, and I didn't like it and went right back again. And I don't think I can baloney any more people than guys in Dunn Center here. [LAUGHS] That's the reason.

SPEAKER: What's the deal now?

SPEAKER: I passed.

SPEAKER: You tell them you pass.

SPEAKER: I'll offer you a bunch.

SPEAKER: Till you pass, till you pass.

SPEAKER: So you offering me a bunch? Now, how far would you go for that bunch? Now I'm going to open it. 4,200. I opened it for 210. 20, 30.

SPEAKER: 40.

SPEAKER: 50

SPEAKER: 60.

SPEAKER: 260.

SPEAKER: 278.

SPEAKER: 280.

SPEAKER: 280.

[SIDE CONVERSATION]

SPEAKER: 290.

SPEAKER: Go ahead.

SPEAKER: I don't think so. I think maybe I'll get it in neck [INAUDIBLE].

SPEAKER: Now, you get acquainted with them, you know? And there really is a fine bunch of people around here. There's nowhere you could go where they're more neighborly or anything like that. We said enjoy one another a little bit, but then that's all for fun. And oh, my goodness gracious.

There's real fine people around here. Well, there's good people everywhere. But now, if you've had experience of living in the big Cities, well, you're better off if you get your friends off in some other buildings if you're living in an apartment house and stuff like that. You can't help people where they're running in every five minutes and doing stuff like that.

So now, for instance, Minneapolis, I go down there once in a while and spend a couple of months or so in the Winter. Well, I can't say that the people are not sociable. They are.

In fact, now you take over there at that University Church, they're real sociable over there. A couple of years ago, they even had communion and the young man, young, young woman got up and completely disrobed and went up to communion. Well, that's sociable.

SPEAKER: 60, 340, 150, My gosh, I was getting on it.

SPEAKER: 20.

SPEAKER: 50.

SPEAKER: I got 70, I guess.

SPEAKER: 70? I'll get it in the neck again now.

SPEAKER: (WHISTLING)

SPEAKER: So these small towns--

SPEAKER: I have 7.

SPEAKER: Yeah.

SPEAKER: Ammo?

SPEAKER: 6.

SPEAKER: 6.

SPEAKER: 12. He was laid out with the idea that everything was all the markets, and the farmers, all everything, the market with the horse and the wagon. So the railroad companies spaced them about 7 miles apart. Well then, after we get better roads, faster travel, well, then the need isn't there for so many small towns.

Like, the little town that I spend the biggest share of my life, I was born in Mercer County. But this is Warner. You heard about that? That's where I spent the biggest share, but that went down the drain.

The future of your small towns depend on your businesses. Now, we have two outstanding garages, and we have a good grain elevator and a pair of grocery stores that we see.

But that we have, when you have people driving past other towns to come to get their service work done on their cars and stuff like that, well, you've got something working for you. So we do have two-wheelers, excellent garages, and we've got a good little shop over on the corner. And we have probably nothing, unless this gasification business goes through that would cause it to expand very much. But I pass. At least they should hold on anyhow.

JOHN YDSTIE: A lot of the people that live here now retired, would you say?

SPEAKER: Well, retired? Well, there's several widows.

SPEAKER: I think over half of them are retired people. Well, now what happened?

SPEAKER: I'm out.

SPEAKER: I'll open.

SPEAKER: Pass.

SPEAKER: 200.

SPEAKER: 10.

SPEAKER: 20.

SPEAKER: 30.

SPEAKER: 40.

SPEAKER: 50.

SPEAKER: 60.

SPEAKER: 70.

SPEAKER: 80.

SPEAKER: 90.

JOHN YDSTIE: Is this a good place for retired folks and older folks to live-- town like that?

SPEAKER: Well, now that's a difference of opinion too, there, you know? Some people would say yes, and some say would no. I would say yes because-- well, in the first place, you are not taxed out of your home, see?

Now there are-- in the cities, if you have a home, well, there's a general rule, unless you are pretty well-fixed, by the time you were up to the retirement age where you have to move out because you can't support the home, see? Many have found that was so-- they just simply can't support it, so they have to move out. Well, up to of as now where we don't have that, see, you don't-- at least you don't have to move out now because you couldn't keep the house going.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do you think it's a good place for people to live, or is it a hard lot for the old folks here?

SPEAKER: No, it's a pleasant life for the old folks because they can visit. They are continuing in the environment they've been living for the last 40, 50 years. They're not caged in an old folks home looking at four walls.

They move around. They go from place to place. They meet people every day. They talk to them, and they don't see the time drift by. In fact, many of them sit-in the store here and don't realize when I went to close the door, they still keep on talking. It makes it pleasant for them.

SPEAKER: Well, Fred, I think I should shake you for a coffee and then.

SPEAKER: OK, let's get that--

SPEAKER: Let's go.

SPEAKER: --coffee.

SPEAKER: Who won the base?

SPEAKER: First.

SPEAKER: It was a nice [INAUDIBLE]. We'll see if we can afford to drink it.

SPEAKER: Start over there.

SPEAKER: Oh, my gosh.

SPEAKER: I'll shake it for you.

SPEAKER: [LAUGHS] Don't do that. Don't do it. [LAUGHS]

SPEAKER: Good enough. Good enough. Three sixes.

SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHS]

SPEAKER: Calm down. I'm going to leave the house [INAUDIBLE] for me all the time. Oh, god, yes.

SPEAKER: What you get?

SPEAKER: Oh--

SPEAKER: Three sixes. Four sixes. Ho, ho, ho.

SPEAKER: You're even now.

SPEAKER: I don't know nothing about it, but--

SPEAKER: You sure?

SPEAKER: Well, Fred, here we go.

SPEAKER: Oh, what have we got here? We won't keep them three deuces.

SPEAKER: That's a good deal.

SPEAKER: After you, Fred. I got to get another four, boy.

SPEAKER: What?

SPEAKER: I got it.

SPEAKER: Oh.

JOHN YDSTIE: How do you guys spend your time here?

SPEAKER: Most of the time, playing cards and visiting and stuff. That's all the only thing we got in here, shaking for coffee, like you see. [LAUGHS] Yeah.

JOHN YDSTIE: Is it a pretty good life, do you think?

SPEAKER: Not really. I mean, do I think there are better things to do. Like in a bigger city, you could go to a sales ring or to a political meeting to pass your time or a lot of other things.

Or even to go to [INAUDIBLE], they got senior citizen clubs, which we haven't hear, either. So yeah, that's what we're missing here. That's what hurts the small town, too.

I think we wore out our usefulness, except for what-- to keep on going. That's all what we got left. Our children are doing good. The grandchildren are doing good, so we're satisfied here.

SPEAKER: To me, it don't feel very good to see a town go down. It just-- it isn't all necessary. I don't think-- and it sure hurts. There are people in the area that have helped to pull the town down instead of trying to hold it together or build.

JOHN YDSTIE: How do they pull it down?

SPEAKER: Well, in this case, I think the worst thing that happened, they thought they'd have better education for their kids if they went to Kildare to a bigger school. And maybe I can't blame them, but they did do that. And they finally got the school closed. And really hurt the town, especially the grocery stores, and I think the grocery stores are suffering by far the most from that. And I don't think they gained that much in education.

SPEAKER: Our student high school enrollment got down to 29, and we were unable to hire good teachers and superintendents any longer. They were the dregs of what was left. And our tax base was so low, we didn't have territory enough to bring in any revenue to keep things going. And we were going behind at the rate of about $5,000 a year. And there was just one thing to do was to try and correct the thing so it was fair to the kids. And so we decided to close the school and bus them to Kildare.

SPEAKER: Too bad to see a community go way down but then it's getting less people around here too, all the time, you know? I sure hate to see it. Like, Warner just East of us, is all washed off the map. I sure hate to see this town happen the same way.

SPEAKER: I anticipate it, though, because we're too close to Kildare. You can't keep two small towns going 7 miles apart. Not in this day and age.

SPEAKER: Warner just didn't want to give up. They didn't want to die until all the businesses closed up and the post office closed up, and they finally did give up. They got the feeling here that it can't die, but it can.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do you see the same signs here that you saw?

SPEAKER: Yeah, it's the same signs. If it-- gasification don't come in, I don't know.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do you think those little towns have outlived their usefulness?

SPEAKER: Well, to me, they have, I think. I think they have because I've seen Warner go down, and I see the center suffering.

SPEAKER: I think these things happen, so gradually, you really don't realize it until like now when we look around. And we sit back and think, well, it used to be-- we used to have a lot of things around, but it. It happens.

And when you live with it day by day, it happens. And you don't think about it at the time. And I think it's happened in a lot of small towns, especially in North Dakota. It's the past, and we have to accept it as that. It's happened all over. And I guess it had to happen, that's all. There's just no choice.

SPEAKER: You've been listening to Our Home Town, Dunn Center, North Dakota, one, in a series of programs that explores the values, concerns and character of life in small towns. The series is produced by Minnesota Public Radio Station, KCCM Moorhead, with funds provided by the North Dakota Committee for the Humanities and Public Issues. The producers are John Ydstie, Dennis Hamilton, and Bill Siemering.