This is an audio. Look at the pine Bend landfill a dump in Dakota County about 25 miles south of downtown Minneapolis the trucks The Dumping the landfill arsene of Perpetual activity accomplishing a necessary function because the flow of garbage never ceases until a few years ago. Not many were concerned with garbage in landfills now or waste and where and how to dispose of it is a Social and Health problem demanding attention and solutions. The seven County metropolitan area generates thousands of tons of solid waste every week and this estimate does not include or consider hazardous chemical waste which resent their own unique disposal problems in 1970 Hennepin County alone buried 18000 tons of solid waste each week the County Public Works Department predictions.Landfills will be full by the early 1980s the county must purchase more land to accommodate the garbage load but the problems associated with landfill expansion far exceed the mirror cost of extra Lakers false substances in landfills can Leach through the soil to pollute groundwater has no future feels will have to be lines prevent leaching another costly environmental measures will have to be taken as existing space is used up landfills will have to be cited farther and farther from the city the largest generator of waste a citizen committee report to the Hennepin County Board estimates increase Paul distances will add over 2 million dollars annually to the cost of disposing County Waste Richard Dougherty out of the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission estimates, the $36 for Waste Control and annual cost to the average metro area family will increased threefold within a decade to the energy and construction cost.Another reason why it's hard to secure landfills people don't like living near dumps, even though they can often be converted to attractive parks and golf courses once they're filled up all facets of Waste Management are growing increasingly expensive, but paradoxically the garbage we presently squeeze into the ground is increasingly being recognized as a vital commodity fuel in an energy hungry society and Seven Counties in the preliminary stages of planning and energy and resource recovery center a two-phase project the first phase would separate and recover metals and iron-based materials for sale to local industry. The second phase is a proposed garbage fueled power plant to be located at industry Square just north of downtown Minneapolis. It would provide Steam for space Heating and Cooling to users downtown. And on the West Bank of the Mississippi River. That's far a private engineering firm in a citizen's advisory committee have told the County Board to proceed with caution.The County Public Works Department believe the plan can work and we'll explore the reasons why in a moment but first it should be emphasized that the county is still at least 18 months away from a construction date. Of course, that's pending approval by the County Board the Metropolitan Council and all other controlling bodies. John deris is Chairman of the Hennepin County board. We're in the feasibility stages of this thing. I think we've decided a that it is feasible to do be the board agrees that it's a good thing to do. But can we do it is what we're working on it up. You know, it's a good idea. It has Merit. Can we do it how far away is that stop-and-go decision as far as actually implementing program and building some kind of a waste Redemption and garbage fuel power plant. Oh probably before you get it online and working it probably take three and a half years from the day you start construction know that there are people that say that but I don't agree with that. I think you could build a year-and-a-half. When is the Border going to have to decide if they want to build it or not? well all the trouble some of these things like this deal is there is no timetable because there is nothing pushing this to to fruition outside of the fact that it's a damn good idea and it should be done there. There is no law or anything that says that we must go ahead and do it. Therefore. We're just the people that are interested in it. Just keep pushing it. I am one of those people, you know, I'm I'm very much interested in this idea. And so we just keep pushing the next step probably the next thing that that's got to happen that another committee be set up and we have I think we have to go to NSP too many gas go to the the people who own and manage the property downtown. I'm convinced that the markets there whether it's whomever it's with those potential customers were a spy at the at one point, but I'm convinced that there is a market for this. So I think that NSP for instance In an earlier meeting. I remember them saying build a plant will buy the steam as it leaves the building, you know, they build another one that was everything to their own customers. There's no shortage of the demand for energy. That's for sure and there's all kinds of indications that say that there's going to be a shortage of fuel so I can only see this thing becoming more and more feasible as time goes on board chairman John Daris negotiations with potential steam users in a downtown area and the West Bank of the Mississippi River have been going on for several years several firm or full-time steam users have been identified as well as several users on an interrupted bolt or part-time basis The Firm steam customers include Cedar Riverside Associates there giant apartment complex on the Westbank st. Mary's Hospital Augsburg College and the Metropolitan Medical Center downtown the minnegasco energy center with supplies pipe. Steam two blocks of downtown buildings would be supplied uninterruptible basis. NSP is not interested in Steam, but they do wish the contract for electricity generated as a byproduct of steam. The proposed plans would be a garbage Glutton consuming about fourteen thousand tons of waste a week for Reclamation and fuel a 1975 study done for the county by a private engineering firm. Estimates the total value of the predicted amount of produce steam would be worth over $1000000 a year 54000 tons of ferrous and aluminum Metals would have an annual market price in excess of three million dollars. The waist is there the county is trying now to determine how the load can be controlled contract between the county and municipalities estimations of Transit and dump charges must all be worked out. The question is how best to get the garbage to the plant site and can it be done in a coordinated manner that makes good economic sense proponents of the plant say it makes sense that since most of the garbage is generated in the dense residential and industrial areas of Minneapolis at the end of a square side is ideal for transport purposes. The area is desolate far from the nearest neighborhood. By the way. It is compatible with the proposed dome stadium for that area. Another question concerns the technology of this sort of plant Luther Nelson is the chief engineer for the Hennepin County Public Works Department. There is one system that has over a hundred plants worldwide that are operated there is other systems and parts of systems. Like we're proposed that are operating in various parts of the country. Some of the failures are due to under financing or a early are in the type of technology. So we do believe that it can be done properly essentially based on technology. A lot of these plants. No operating and some have very definite problems. Why is Hennepin County confident that your plan could go? Well, we feel that in our studies. We have started by looking at the potential markets and the value of the the products to be sold and then adapting technology to meet those market demand and then utilizing the solid waste in that technology in many locations a municipality or a government was faced with a severe Solid Waste Disposal problem and they hit upon for instance at one location a they thought they would be Incinerator and they said wonderful. Let's make some steam and I thought that was a good idea which it was but then they built it out in there a new industrial park and they haven't had it receive any buildings anymore buildings in the industrial park to sell this team too. So they don't sell steam but they make Steam very good. So they saw their disposal problem, but they have not marketed. We have looked at it from the other aspect of marketing first and then matching the disposal problem to that Luther Nelson of the Hennepin County Public Works Department processing energy from garbage utilizes a smelly butt sound technology the proposed process which we have studied is that the ones to refuse is dumped at the site. Yeah, the it would be taken and ground-up shredded. The ferrous metals would be removed and they would go through a second stage of shredding which would reduce it down to about a 1in sized and then they light materials would be separated from the heavy materials. This is the light materials are they organic fraction? And it took burnable the heavy materials which compromise about a quarter of it. The other metals the dirt various things would be separated out and aluminum or other materials can be removed from those heavy materials arrest would have to be landfill all the light would be taken over and then put in the weather for Burney load of garbage what percent might be suitable for either recycling or burning to generate power any idea on that. Well actually it from an average load from the average Solid Waste which is both Municipal and Commercial and so forth you end up with about 75% of all of it that is burnable. It's the paper and the paper products and some Plastics and various other things. Is there a market for recycling a dimension ferrous materials iron-based materials and aluminum? Is there a good enough market in this area that want to separated the county or whoever manages the plant could sell it to a industrial users? Yes for ferrous metals and for aluminum, there's excellent Marcus if you process the materials to in to be meet the specifications of the buyers, the aluminum is very good market and a continuous Market. They ferrous metal is sold into the tinning plants and not necessarily here, but perhaps in Wisconsin or Jason. With plant be able to handle all the garbage process daily. In the county now the original proposal and studies which were completed analyze the potential market for steam energy and size to recommend the facility Side based on that market. They propose that the plant initially could use about 675000 tons of waste per year while Hennepin County would be generating about 1 million tons of waste per year in 1980. And that's the respect that they just wouldn't it was recommended for at a later date. It could be increased in size to utilize up to about 800,000 tons a year. Baste again on Market considerations. I won't complain out now that since the energy crisis continued energy crisis of the past year. There's more interest and these types of numbers may change. Could you describe what a day in the life of a plant like this is like what is there a certain time that the garbage would come in or would it have to be a 24-hour sort of operation how to avoid some of the other plants work? Well a plant like this operates 24 hours a day 7 days a week because basically they become a a energy producer and they're producing the steam or whatever for the use of the people that are buying it. So they have to continue a full operations Solid Waste though is collected in a relatively short period of the day generally the morning and early afternoon. So good share the waist does come into a plan like this probably from 8 in the morning until 2 in the afternoon and it is put into a large pit where they can take from it and continue the processing. The actual processing wood run on a 8 or 16 hour a day basis and maintenance work be done on the equipment the rest of the day and the fuel then would be stored and then burned on us 7 days a week. So you do have to have fuel capacity capacity to carry you over the holidays until 4 if construction is plant where to start tomorrow. When could it come online and be producing? These types of plants take in excess of two years and close to three years to actually construct. So I'd say close to three years if things go smoothly from here on in the planning stages and allowing for all the time that the governmental procedures take how far down the line would they decision be made whether or not to build if everything goes smoothly we could be looking at the decision of what to do with a response from an RFP in something over a year. And then if the it is a response of RSV, it meets the guidelines of the County Board. They could be given the go-ahead to relatively soon to start and within about three years from that point in time has something going so that's a minimum of four more realistically is closer to 5 though. It would take from this time. Look for Nelson of the Hennepin County Public Works Department. It is preferred that the proposed 57 Dollar facility be financed and operated by the private sector right now. The county is trying to generate some interest some of the existing plants United States have been private Ventures locally northern states Power Company in the Minnesota gas company are interested in purchasing power from the plant but are reluctant to develop it themselves that huge Capital costs are the main drawback Warren walline manages the minnegasco Energy Center in downtown Minneapolis. The center is jointly owned by minnegasco and IDs properties. I don't think we would be interested in doing it ourselves because of the capital expenditure required. We would be interested in an operating a plant. I would we would like to look into that. See we have an operating company now that operation against Kawhi Leonard and as an expansion of this we could I think very easily expand to operate another similar plant. I think it's just a question of and you probably already gone through this of the finance you I mean we're looking at a lot of dollars in probably 60 million dollars, right and that You have in order to adjust if I this investment you're going to have to have control of the solid waste worn while laying of the minnegasco energy center County officials believe they can arrange to control the solid waste Contracting with municipalities essential preliminaries statistics project that hauling and dumping to the centrally-located power plant would be less expensive than hauling to outline landfills. And of course the sale of energy to pay back that you don't get at the dump assuming that the garbage will get to the plant and be converted to steam. The next question is transport chain would be carried to underground pipelines from the plant two buildings downtown and on the Westbank the minnegasco energy center pipe steam to an extensive District heating Network beneath the streets of downtown Minneapolis several blocks of major downtown buildings, including the idea Center are heated and cooled by the steam Warren wylene of minnegasco roughly estimates that certain periods up to 25% of the energy center. Steam could come from a garbage plant. Steam lines are considered effective for a limited range only approximately 122 miles possibly more depending on the size of the load Warren wylene describe how a hook-up could be made covering the approximate one mile distance between the proposed plan site and the energy center which lies near the Hennepin County Medical Center in downtown Minneapolis. Yeah. I kind of state return line what have to be installed in the within the confines of the street now could either be under the sidewalk or under the street area. We installed hours under the sidewalk because that was cheaper than tearing up the street. Of course, if you can get in go through some land area without having a tear up the sidewalk and then it's cheaper. Are through building basements that is worth much more advantageous and cheaper to do that Warren wylene of the minnegasco energy center align from the plant. The Westbank users would also be constructed northern states power also is interested in being served by the proposed plant Neil Pierce is a development officer with NSP and we would be interested in and buying electricity as a product from this plant is being developed electricity than being a byproduct. The main product would be steamed for this bikini. The plant would function basically the same as any one of our steam plants right now, which is we burn coal and in a boiler does heat up water into steam it goes through a turbine turn to driving around with intern friends generator and generates electricity this plant would function in the same way. The only difference is you're burning garbage instead of or oil or whatever feel my pain. And so then there would be the transporting the energy efficient system. And so, you know, it just goes into a big pot and whoever is there first gets a type of saying it isn't there in any one particular building it might even go to sleep all think louder. Fuels of the future generally garbage or solid waste his got a lower sulfur content then call and as the result of this less polluting as far as we're concerned it does have the problem of there's no rash associated with it and you have to put into adequate systems to remove that Ash to dust out. So that doesn't go out into the atmosphere. So that's a greater problems and what call finally pure economic trade-offs of garbage fuel vs. Fossil fuels one of the problems and he is making this product. UPS team competitive with oil and gas. How does it cost compare now primarily in the fossil take plan that we have at school. We only burn oil and we have to or gas when we can and we can't get it. We don't burn gas stuff anymore really in a in a pack trying to compare this with our system. And what is people are using downtown here there different things. gas is the cheapest fuel right now on the market for heating buildings downtown The problem was gas is that within the foreseeable future which is 567 years. Whatever will be gas. Probably will not be available to building downtown. They don't have to go to some other fuel a lot of the buildings downtown are heated with gas with and oil as an alternative now. So a lot depends on what happened to the price of oil today is cheaper than we could deliver Steam for the price of oil is cheaper than what we can deliver steam. But if there's a possibility that they are cheaper in that it's probably going to cost more I think that's a very safe statement yet Neil Pierce of NSP. The garbage to energy concept is not new Saint Paul is considering a plan for the downtown area that carry already has an extensive underground steam Network part of which is used to heat customers with steam generated by NSP hybrid plant. It could be expanded proponents. Say the Horner Waldorf company of the Midway area of st. Paul was considering such a plant until negotiations broke down last year between the huge cardboard packaging firm and a contractor Warner Waldorf uses immense quantities of steam and the idea may be revived. The legislature has established laws governing the development of Waste Recovery plants in Minnesota. The state has bested oversight power in the metropolitan Council for project in the seven County metropolitan area. The Minnesota Pollution Control agency would issue various permits for construction and operation of a Waste Recovery plant on approval by the Metropolitan Council in November of last year the council a minute. It's Solid Waste Management regulations to include 53 pages of regulations governing the development of resource recovery facilities virtually every aspect of a proposed plant must meet strict standards from planning to Pollution Control. The owner operator must also guarantee such a plant will be financially self-sufficient processing techniques and other Technologies must be approved mode Arden is the director of environmental planning for the Metropolitan Council. He posed some of the questions the county will have to satisfy to ensure the plant can be built in county has done the feasibility study that they reported to the Council on it now, they're trying to determine how they're going to well who will develop the facility where there had some private firms how it will be managed and once I get the whole package together, then they will. Submit this for permits in the course. All these facilities are permitted by the police control agency has for a solid waste disposal facility in the PCA guess the permits and they come over to the council for review and it's actually the council says yes or no and and according to the Criterion standards that have been filled of the Metropolitan Council one of the big questions as who will develop the plant and if an County Commissioner, John Deere has said if private investors can't be found the county should still under take the 57 million dollar Venture. We don't operate on a profit incentive in the county. So all we have to do is break even What you see it cost the government and the people money no matter what we do first while costume for for fuel seconal cost me a great deal to Carthage stuff out the landfills just think I just was one factor putting diesel fuel and semis and taking them from what's a this building all the way out to Cottage Grove to the landfill and then deadheading them empty back to think of that cost in fuel then think of the fact that you've bearing the equivalent of millions of barrels of oil every year in garbage. That's fuel it can be used so on for us to be sitting up here on the edge of the tundra. And still bearing garbage is this A Primitive? So I'm not afraid of the county being in this business. I think it's infinitely better if the Private Industry doesn't but if they don't and I don't think but not indicating right now, you know that they're going to because they are not on a profit incentive. They may someday do this. So look for the garbage for fuel for the methane gas. Does that bother you at all that it appears now Private Industry is looking for government guarantees, or they want government to do the development work before they go in that appears to be a situation that is prevalent in a lot of areas that they're not willing to go into alternative technology and what they may be was a risky investment will all of these things as I see them or a matter of mathematics, you know, what makes sense is what you should do another which doesn't make sense for us to cooperate with Private Industry. It does as long as the mathematics works out School works out for us as long as it doesn't is we're not in effect subsidizing them and paying for something we're not paying for now. But it's our business and government to to develop things like this to if nobody else will you know, that's what we're here for is to try to solve these problems from facing us. In our society today. We got to do something about this and here we have the input potentially a a small answer and we should be doing something about the what about trying to see it realized. Once again mode Orton of the Metropolitan Council has to be an environmental impact statement. I know what the cost of operation the economic feasibility is, if you know really if it's soundly Finance whether it's financially self-sufficient, that's one of the Criterion are they can't use other public Monies to support its got it be operated on then the revenues produce from the silly to pay the capital and operating. Is it necessarily going to hurt the County's bad if they're not able to contract for development construction and management by a private firm? I don't know it really. I guess it really depends upon how sound the economic analysis is for the project know how feasible it looks in terms of the actual interest rate at the time and how much the capital cost will be how much but the death of an app to pay off and how much drop charger going to have to charge and what kind of steam prices they can negotiate. Those are all the things are going to have to have answers for before they're ready to proceed with the project or before they're going to say OK metabomb doesn't want to build it, please. And I guess we'll want to see you no firm commitments on what what what kind of steam price are they going to get out right now? It's I get a lot of it is speculation. We just have to wait to see what develops mode Orton of the Metropolitan Council the preparation and governmental steps are many commissioner. John Deere has has in his office a project flowchart which outlines doesn't the points where the project must be scrutinized halted reviewed and started again and again by The Regulators, but it is a relatively new technology based on new economics the Exotic economics of Mining Co from garbage, the emphasis is supplied by the knowledge that we may presently be burying the substance that will help keep us warm in the future. And of course there is a dilemma, where do we put the 4.5 lb of garbage which generate daily when the landfill fills up? Luther Nelson of the County Public Works Department, we have only five or six years before we have to be doing something else or have a new landfills or a combination of both. So it's a pretty critical stage as far as either make that determination to buy more land or to do something up on this order of going with a Waste Recovery. And yes that is that is correct. We are also the county is looking for landfill space because even with resource recovery and you still need Center landfill space for materials that can't go in the resource recovery and also for Ash and other materials must be disposed. Luther Nelson of the Hennepin County Public Works Department County Commissioner John Deere has offered his best estimate for a timetable for the proposed plan. I'm won County Commissioner and then the other governmental agencies the city you count the Metropolitan Housing estate all of them. I think have to be consulted with and and work with so would be presumptuous of me to give you a date. All I know is I think it should be done yesterday. I'm near Saint Anthony.