Prairie Home Morning Show March 29, 1977 Old Federal Courts Building.

Transcription by codeMantra, LLC

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GARRISON KEILLOR We are sitting in the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul, a building that was constructed in the mid 14th century, a race of Aztec Indians who lived here briefly designed along classic Aztec lines.

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GARRISON KEILLOR Good morning everybody and welcome to 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' for Tuesday, today is the 29th of March. There is a light rain falling in downtown St. Paul, falling out here below this second storey window down into 5th street, and across the street into Rice Park, down into the fountain which I can see they haven't filled with water yet, where the grass is green out there, and the trees are showing a little bit of green up in the branches. We are looking across Rice Park over to the St. Paul Public Library, and sitting in an office on the second floor of the Old Federal Courts Building, now known as Landmark Center, which has been closed to the public since about March of last year. We are going to try as best we can in the next three hours or so to bring a little bit of this building to you over the air. It's a strange idea and probably we wont be very successful, but it's a building, which is dear to the hearts of everyone who lives in St. Paul and most everybody who has come to visit here and seen it. It is everybody's vision of a castle, perhaps the closest thing we have to, magnificent castle in downtown St. Paul or anywhere. And in the next three hours, we will be talking with some of the people who have worked over the last 15 years or so to make sure that this building would go into its second century. And with other people from the St. Paul-Ramsey Council of Arts and Sciences and member agencies, who will be here to occupy it when it is finished, when this phase of its restoration is finished come early next year. The weather forecast for the twin cities is going to give us some more rain today, and we will get on with the weather forecast here in a little bit. We do along the way want to wish a happy birthday to Viola this morning, who has turned 45 and we are going to play a little Finnish tune for her, sung by Viola Turpeinen, it's called 'Cooking Coffee For My Sweetheart.'

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VIOLA TURPEINEN sings "COOKING COFFEE FOR MY SWEETHEART"

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GARRISON KEILLOR That was a Finnish tune called, 'Cooking Coffee For My Sweetheart' sung by Viola Turpeinen. Good morning to you on Tuesday, March the 29th 'Prairie Home Morning Show' coming to you this morning from the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul is it used to be known, now called Landmark Center. And now in the process of being extensively redone on the interior. Pamela Michaelis and Betty Musser have been good enough to get up early this morning, and to come down and join us here. We are up in the second floor office, this is Musser that when the building was briefly occupied by Council of Arts and Science Center agencies and the historical society and others before you closed it for this major phase of renovation, this used to be the Schubert clubs' office in here, it's now the it's like the contractor's office is that right? In the next room there are drafting tables of blueprints laid across them. And if we just look out this front door of the office we will see out in the darkness out there that the inside of the building has been extensively taken apart, though sure people who have been in it before that all the essential features are still there. What is going on in this phase and it's renovation Is it

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BETTY MUSSER This phase is primarily to bring the building up to code.

GARRISON KEILLOR Isn't it.

BETTY MUSSER To put in thewe've a great deal of the beauty of the building, and this is to supply thethe ducts

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER the air-conditioning and heating, elevatorsand to do a modest bit of painting and decorating particularly in the ground floor and in this large central courtile so that it can open and be beautiful for public use.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah, this magnificent large open area in the middle for those of you who have never visited it, the Courts Building was constructed in the 1890s, and from the exterior is magnificent romantic Romanesque building with towers and terds and gables and peaks and dormers and clay tiled roof, chimneys and the two great tall towers. The south clock tower looking down on Rice Park and the north tower here at the other end, and the interior is a great open courtyard with offices and rectangular balconies around on all four floors, which look down on it. Above there is a sky light, I believe it was

BETTY MUSSER Yes, yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR just recently. And two more floors of offices above that, and then the sky light in the roof. I saw in your plans for renovation here, Ms. Musser that you were planning to have plants and ivy on terraces, where this first sky light is up here on the fourth floor.

BETTY MUSSER The one up at the top, upon the fifth floor. We hope to do that, yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BETTY MUSSER And have a garden effect down in the main courtile area to with large potted plants so that it will become kind of indoor Rice Park during the bad weather which we have our share in Minnesota.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah. I want to talk to both of you Pamela Michaelis and Betty Musser from Minnesota Landmarks' about the struggle to save this building. The new Federal Building was built in there early 60s, and completed I guess what about, 1965 and over the next few years Federal officers in the courts moved over there. Was there ever any chance that this great building was going to be torn down I know there were rumors.

BETTY MUSSER Oh I think there was a good very chance, yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR Really

BETTY MUSSER Yes. There were many people that wanted it turned down. There might be a few still but, their numbers are considerably reduced.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BETTY MUSSER But I believe that it was quite a threat, and at the time that Tom Burn was mayor, he received so many letters from people protesting this that, that was what caused him to set up the Minnesota Landmarks' Committee to. Its purpose was to save the Old Federal Courts Building.

GARRISON KEILLOR There were great many people involved especially, as it gained more publicity and more notice. But you were Ms. Musser, a very small handful of people who were first interested in this.

BETTY MUSSER Well I was on the first committee but I was by no means, one of the prime movers at that time. I

GARRISON KEILLOR Well I have no plaques to stand out anyway.

BETTY MUSSER Frank Marchitelli and George Decosta and Brookes Cavenor are really the ones that carried the torch in the early days. But I've always been on the committee that increasingly involved

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. How much do you think it will eventually cost to put this building back intoin up to code and to make it as beautiful as it really is

BETTY MUSSER The plans through this particular stage will come to about $6.5 million that includes, the money that was spent on the earlier stage.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER You spoke of the roof, we were able to have tiles made, the exact duplicates from the original moulds, and that was the major item as well as cleaning the outside. Then after that perhaps, another 2 million although that isn't planned for now, and it can stretch out over a period of time as funds are developed and we see what kinds of development 5th and 6th floor won't be developed at this period.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh, I see.

BETTY MUSSER So perhaps 8.5 million.

GARRISON KEILLOR I want to talk to you some more about general subject of restoration and preservation because there are a lot of people out there, out state and around who are doing it in their own communities.

BETTY MUSSER Uh-huh indeed it

GARRISON KEILLOR You and I could name a dozen of them, and there are probably others who are going to and the campaign to save and preserve and to develop really, the Old Federal Courts Building, the Landmark Center is in itself a sort of landmark in the preservation field.

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR I am sure you have some advice to give to people who want to do that. I am going to pause here and give the weather forecasts for some of our listeners who have to leave us early. There is a possibility of snow in northern Minnesota tonight. Rain turning to snow and the chance of rain showers in the south today and tonight, highest today should be in 40s, Minnesota and about the same tomorrow. Here in the Twin Cites area chance of rain showers through the day today and a chance of rain mixed with or changing to snow late tonight and Wednesday. Highest today would be in the upper 40s. It will be cloudy in the most of Wisconsin today, rain likely in central and northern Wisconsin, but becoming partly sunny and warmer later on in the day in the south, highest from the 40s in the north to the 60s in the south. For north eastern Iowa, chance of sunlight rain today and it will be rather windy, winds gusting up to and more than 40 miles per hour, with highest today ofin the 60s in north eastern Iowa. There is a winter storm warning out for North Dakota, western and central North Dakota today and the entire state tonight. Rain changing to snow today out in the west and rain in the east today changing to snow tonight, along with strong gusty winds out at the north. Temperatures will be steady and falling through the day in North Dakota to lowest tonight in the upper 20s in the east. It will windy and colder in South Dakota also with snow and blowing snow in the west, chance of snow tonight also and rain in the east today. Highest today South Dakota in the 40s in the east. You are listening to 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' coming to you from the Landmark Center, the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul.

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GARRISON KEILLOR And it's about 21 minutes now past the hour 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' this is Tuesday morning March the 29th coming to you from a second floor office overlooking Rice Park, in downtown St. Paul in the Landmark Center, formally the Old Federal Courts Building. Our guests are Pamela Michaelis and Betty Musser who is the Chairman of the Landmark Center project Committee of Minnesota landmarks. The organization which is responsible for renovating and renewing this building, which is undergoing extensive repairs and installation of new wiring and heating and air conditioning systems, new elevator is going to come into Mrs. Musser

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BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah, are they going to be the open kind, the cage elevator

BETTY MUSSER No.

GARRISON KEILLOR No.

BETTY MUSSER No, the old one will be used for the handicapped from the main floor down to the ramp area where they will be coming in and then be able to transfer, but the others will be modern, including a large freight elevator.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. The Old Federal Courts Building was build in the 1890s dedicated I believe in 1902

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR And with a great procession up from the old customs house I believe, when the post office clerks led by the post office band marched in here. It was the home of Federal Government Offices, Internal Revenue and the Customs Office and others the Post Office occupying the first floor and the District and Circuit Judges, Circuit Courts appear on the fourth floor I believe, wasn't it

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER And third, there are two court rooms on third and two on four.

GARRISON KEILLOR It's a magnificent building with the offices around a great long rectangular open court looking down on it, and four tiers of balconies encircling it, not encircling it, it's rectangular and magnificent marble pillars and I will have time to describe it a little more fully later in this show. I mentioned before that there are people which you know very well, particularly around Minnesota and neighboring states who are working to keep old buildings in their communities, old courthouses County courthouses, the old Railroad Depot up in Duluth and many others. You have been involved in this project now for what about 15 years

BETTY MUSSER Not quite but it seems longer.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah. You could almost write a book about it I would think, and if you were going to, what would be your main points of advice to people who are just starting out who are looking at some old building which is just on the edge of being condemned and going down beneath the records ball would like to keep it and make it into something.

BETTY MUSSER And I suppose the first thing to determine is that it really is a good building and I don't believe all building should be saved just because they are old...

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER ...but I do have a feeling that good buildings of any age are an important part of our history, and if we tear them down our children and grandchildren wont ever sense that part of our heritage. So, I think knowing that the building is good is important, and then getting as much public support from individuals, public bodies and all because it's a long and difficult job I...

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER ...think if you read preservation news, you find that no building has ever been saved without a struggle and many have been lost during this struggle. So it's very important to have the support of the community.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER And probably the key to saving building is about their reuse, I think no one is going to save buildings just to be monuments to the past. So that's probably the most challenging and difficult task.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER To convince people first of all that the building is worth saving, and then to find appropriate use so that it can continue to make history.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. Pamela Michaelis of Minnesota Landmarks with us too, I will direct this question both of you, there is one advantage it seems to me that people who are about to embark or embarking on such projects now have that the people who set out to do it in the early 60s did not and that is that, public attitudes have changed towards old buildings like this, I think that 15 years ago someone who was making the case for tearing down an old buildings has been outmoded and having outlived its usefulness in favor of some new brick courthouse, new glass curtain building, had a much clear sailing 15 years ago, than they do today I think public feelings about that have changed. Do you sense that too

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PAMELA MICHAELIS Oh I think so. As a fundraiser for this building, we have discovered that people have through Betty's work and George Decosta's work and all the people who have been working so hard on this building for so long, people have changed their minds about this building and about other buildings. And this building is really in the forefront all through the country and because of this building, and because of the work that's being done and because of the public support we have received, buildings throughout the country, buildings throughout Minnesota in particular are being looked at with a new eye, and people who before this thought that it was much better to put in a parking lot are now looking at these buildings and thinking we can use these buildings.

GARRISON KEILLOR It isit wasn't unusual building to preserve wasn't it, because first of all, it was not preserved for its historical importance. This is not the place where...

BETTY MUSSER Not solely.

GARRISON KEILLOR Great treaties were signed or where heads of State resided. Nor was it saved entirely because of its historical architectural significance, it is not the only building of this type left in the country or it was part of the school of architecture we saw many examples, but it was saved in part I would think for reasons of the heart that it was important to this city.

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR Right

BETTY MUSSER Yes. I think it's very important architecturally and historically for St. Paul and for Minnesota.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yes.

BETTY MUSSER Because there are not very many of that period.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER And probably we don't have the tower of London.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BETTY MUSSER Inaudible and Faneuil hall, we do have this, and I think it is an affair of the heart for many of us.

GARRISON KEILLOR I know it isI know it is. It's a beautiful building. We are going to pause here just a moment for Rich Steven to give us the news and we'll be back in this next half hour, with Bruce Carlson of the Schubert Club, who is one of the people with the Council of Arts and Sciences who's actually had an office and in fact we are sitting in part of it, what used to be his office. And we'll talk a little bit about the building with some people who have worked in it. About twenty nine and one half minutes now past 6 o'clock.

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RICH STEVEN Thank you Garrison Keillor and good morning. I am Rich Steven with a brief summary of news and weather. And last report, Duluth reported the 30 degrees and winds gusting up to 50 miles per hour and foggy conditions in that city, Bingham Lake 44 degrees, Grand Marais, 42, cloudy and windy, Mankato 40 degrees and so far seven tenths of inch of fall in there. Good thunder reports 42 degrees and fog, Detroit Lakes 44 and cloudy St. Cloud, Collegeville 40 degrees and cloudy. The Twin Cities has a temperature of 44 and cloudy conditions, Rochester reports cloudy and 50 and Marshall 42 and cloudy. I'll have a brief summary of the weather conditions around the State there with the forecast at the end of this newscast. US Secretary of State, Cyrus Vance and Soviet Party Leader Leonid Brezhnev yesterday opened talks in Moscow on the possibilities of resuming arms limitation talks between their two countries. Kevin Ruan has a report.

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KEVIN RUAN and the atmosphere at the SAARC was inaudible but when the talks got underway, Mr. Brezhnev restated Soviet displeasure at the President's outspokenness on behalf of human rights campaigner. He says that certain aspects of American policy do not accord with the principles of equality, mutual benefits and non-interference in each other's affairs. On the subject of strategic arms limitations, Mr. Gromyko said the basis for a new agreement was already there. The accord reached in principle by Mr. Brezhnev and President Ford in Vladivostok in 1974. But he said, what has been achieved there should not be rejected. Mr. Vance who has also brought proposals for drastic cuts in the two nation's nuclear arsenal and talks after lunch with Mr. Gromyko. According to American sources, the Soviet side agreed to study Washington fans a deep cut back in the total number of strategic missiles and bombers. Kevin Ruan, BBC, Moscow.

RICH STEVEN The house assassinations committee says, it has a good number of new leads that suggest President John Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther king were killed not by lone assassins but by a conspiring group, but some lawmakers say they think the committee will be dissolved this week, a vote on whether to keep the committee alive is set for tomorrow. In an interim report issued yesterday, the committee said, it has information that Lee Harvey Oswald may have been connected with an Anti-Castro group that has supported or was supported rather by the Central Intelligence Agency. Oswald was named by the Warren Commission as Kennedy's lone killer. The panel also said that it will investigate whether James Earl Ray collected a bounty after the 1968 murder of Civil rights leader Martin Luther king. Environmentalist who oppose some of the nation's water resource projects will put their objections before Congress today. President Carter has said that more than 30 such projects may be dropped unless questions about them, some of them, environmental questions can be answered. Panels in both the Senate and the house are holding hearings on the projects. The house today is expected to pass a bill giving President Carter the power to reorganize Federal agencies. The measure was given a lift yesterday when Texas Democrat Jack Brooks, Chairman of the House Government Operations Committee accepted a provision giving Congress the power to approve under certain conditions. The President's reorganization plans before they go into effect, Carter's original request for authority would have given him the power to act unilaterally. The Congress able to veto his actions after the fact. And other news this morning, Soviet President Nikolai Podgorny is in the African Nation of Mozambique after spending three days in Zambia. He was touring black African countries to promise health and opposing the white Governments of Rhodesia, South Africa and Namibia. About 30 percent of the residents of the Christian sector of Beirut, Lebanon are said to be on strike today, protesting recent changes made by Lebanese President Elias Sarkis in the Lebanese Army. Sarkis has ordered that the commander of the Army, a supporter of former Lebanese President Camille Chamoun be replaced. That prompted Chamoun to call for a general strike among his supporters. French President Valry Giscard d'Estaing made it clear that he won't call new elections despite recent losses in municipal elections by his party. However, yesterday he officially responded to the gains made by opposition parties by reorganizing his cabinet. Raphiella Shupala has report from Paris.

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RAPHIELLA SHUPALA French Prime Minister Raymond Barr submitted the resignation of his government but the President Valry Giscard d'Estaing said, he would ask him to have a new Government nevertheless. The resignation came after the government was severely defeated in nationwide municipal elections last week. Giscard said, the new cabinet would be streamlined and composed mainly of technicians instead of politicians. The dissolution of the government confirmed that Giscard will not call early legislative elections but may well give France its first socialist communist majority since the Fifth Republic was installed in 1958. This is Raphiella Shupala in Paris.

RICH STEVEN A west St. Paul women has been identified as one of the victims of a plane crash in the Canary islands that killed more than 560 persons last Sunday. Pan American Airlines officials have disclosed that Mrs. Emily Kohler, a widow in her 60s was one of the victims who died in the worst air disaster in civil aviation history. Mrs. Kohler was traveling from New York to the Canary Islands for a vacation cruise. The Pan American Plane she was traveling in collided with a Royal Dutch Airlines Jumbo Jet as both planes attempted to take off at fogbound Tenerife Airport. Mrs. Kohler was the widow of Dr. Luchen Kohler, a St. Paul eye specialist. A report on the economy of the upper mid west by the Federal Reserve Bank says, the general economy in the last half of 1976 was not seriously affected by drought and depressed agriculture commodity prices. The report says employment dropped slightly to six percent in the second half of last year compared to a national average of 7.9 percent. The report says home building and manufacturing improved compared to the rate in 1975. The Federal Reserve says, businesses in Minnesota and Dakotas can look forward to a prosperous year this year but that the region's weakest prospect is agriculture which may be in trouble if a dry season is ahead. Minnesota Senator, Hubert Humphrey says, he has introduced a bill in the US Senate that will liberalize loan requirements for rural housing under the Farmer's home administration. Humphrey says, the bill he introduced yesterday will extent most home loans by three years. The bill will also permit private builders to obtain loans providing at least 50 percent of the sites developed will be used for low-income housing. The FmHA loans or currently restricted to non-profit and public agencies. Minnesota Governor Rudy Perpich was on the road last again visiting the small committee on Milan located North of Montevideo and Chippewa County. Perpich drove to Milan to talk with residents who are protesting an increase in their telephone rates. The residents of the small town urged the Governor to appoint Vernida Satterley of Marshall to the state Public Service Commission. The PSC recently handed down a decision allowing increases in telephone rates. The Minnesota Health Department reports that 37 of Minnesota's 87 counties have reported cases of measles this year. Health Department Spokeswomen Dyan Peterson says, about 500 cases have been reported in Minnesota since January compared with 400 cases that were reported before the entire 1975-76 school year. Though it is not an epidemic, Health Department officials say the cases of measles in the State are definitely on the rise. Immunization clinics have been set up in 100 Minnesota communities since the first cases were reported. And finally, this morning in the absence of Jim Ed Poole we want to bring you at least a couple of pertinent scores, the Texas Rangers beat the Minnesota Twins yesterday by a score of six to five and in the National Hockey League the Minnesota North Stars won out over St. Louis Blues five to four. The forecast for Minnesota, rain in the North is expected today possibly turning to snow there tonight. Chance of rain showers in the South today and tonight, chance of rain and snow showers over the entire State by tomorrow. The winds will be north of Lea from thefrom the North west or North east rather, at between 20 and 30 miles per hour gusting up to 40 miles per hour. And the high temperatures today should be in the 40s and the low temperatures in Minnesota should be in the 30s. For the Twin Cities area, there is a chance of rain showers today, also a chance of that rain becoming mixed with snow and changing to snow late tonight and tomorrow. The highest today for the Twin city should be in the upper 40s, the lowest tonight in the mid 30s and the highest on Wednesday in the mid 40s. We return you now, to Garrison Keillor who is on the second floor I believe, the Old Federal Courts building in downtown St. Paul.

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GARRISON KEILLOR That's right, thank you Rich. Rich Steven with the news. 23 minutes before 0700. We are sitting up in an office on the second floor of the Landmark Center in downtown St. Paul, formerly the Old Federal Courts building with Ms. Betty Musser from Minnesota Landmarks, the Chairman of the Landmark Center Project Committee, Pamela Michaelis who is the fund drive director for Minnesota Landmarks and Bruce Carlson of the Schubert club who for a brief period there, what about a year and a half ago for a couple of years occupied this office and the ones immediately next to it. Mrs. Musser, I keep referring to this as the Landmark Center formally, the Old Federal Courts building, is there going to come a time when the name Landmark Center will be the name for the building

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BETTY MUSSER Oh yes, but it probably always will be identified as in the Old Federal Courts Building.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah, I support. What sort of a building was it to work in Bruce

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BRUCE CARLSON It was the best office space we ever had. It's nice to look out over the park at the library and it wasn't air conditioned then, but the walls were so thick that it didn't seem to matter in the summer, it's still cool in there.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah, buildings that would be built today that you and I might have offices in, would not probably have 20 foot ceilings. These look like 20 foot ceilings to me.

BRUCE CARLSON They get shorter each floor as you go up it's about 10 feet on those fifth floor.

GARRISON KEILLOR Oh yeah. The magnificent courtrooms upon the third and fourth floors, Mrs. Musser, with fireplaces and marble fireplaces in mantles, beautiful chandeliers and woodwork, wainscoting. What plans do you have for those, when the building is reopened

BETTY MUSSER Those rooms will always be available to be used by many groups. They will never being locked into any one particular agency and people may engage them for meetings, for poetry readings, we've had lovely chamber music concerts in them with candle light. And so they are intended as is the whole center of courtile area to be available to many people to use.

GARRISON KEILLOR And when the building is opened, which will be what in about a year

BETTY MUSSER Somewhere in 1978.

GARRISON KEILLOR 1978 somewhere.

BETTY MUSSER Summer.

GARRISON KEILLOR Summer.

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR Okay. It will also include galleries with a Minnesota Museum of Art

BETTY MUSSER The Minnesota Museum of Art plans to move their community gallery from the Arts and Science center over here but, probably we'll not have that completed at the time of the original opening, although we hope it will come soon after.

GARRISON KEILLOR And there will also be a coffee shop on the first floor.

BETTY MUSSER That's what we plan.

GARRISON KEILLOR A cafe.

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR A ratskeller down on the basement at some time.

BETTY MUSSER At some time. That is a real hope because it's a wonderful space to have a restaurant.

GARRISON KEILLOR And the offices of a number of agencies of the St. Paul-Ramsey Council of Arts and Sciences and the Ramsey County Historical Society will have displays in their library offices.

BETTY MUSSER Yes, and the Ramsey County Historical Society is building toward a history of the museum to show the history of St. Paul in many areas. Literature and Government and all kinds of things that were led to the Urban history.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER That would be on the ground floor.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. And the Schubert Club, Bruce is going to have a musical instrument collection housed in this building. Have you come far enough along on that to know what's going to be in it, roughly

BRUCE CARLSON Yes. We started collecting instruments about five years ago.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BRUCE CARLSON And it goes pretty slowly, because we don't have a lot of money for acquisitions.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BRUCE CARLSON So we get donations of instruments and we have an arrangement, an informal arrangement worked out with the Smithsonian Institution and the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, whereby when they get and instrument offered to them that they can't use

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BRUCE CARLSON For instance the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn only collects American instruments.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BRUCE CARLSON They will offer it to us and some of our nicest things have come that way, including a 1840 Pleyel Piano that was reportedlyreputedly I guess it was

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BRUCE CARLSON used by Chopin

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BRUCE CARLSON and a piano that Broms used at one time.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BRUCE CARLSON we've pretty much decided to focus on keyboard instruments right now. But in the future we might expand a little bit.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. And maybe include music boxes in it too because I am just about to play a little music box music.

BRUCE CARLSON I think we could include music boxes, yes there is some really elaborate beautiful music boxes. I have a part and sort of the western music tradition that Schubert club is interested in.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah, yeah. It's about 17 minutes here before 0700 before going any further. I want to do a little business here, and wish a Happy birthday to David who is 23 or was yesterday now ishad a day to get used to it, and to Larry Legus who made the big turn on Sunday and became 30 years old. And probably by now he knows what that's like to. You are listening to 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' coming to you this Tuesday morning from the Landmark Center formerly the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul.

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GARRISON KEILLOR On the banks of the Wabash, far away, played on Regina Music Box from the Rita Ford collections, about fourteen and a half minutes before for 7 o'clock. Good morning to you on Tuesday, it's the 29th of March. Coming to you from the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul, building which has been closed to the public since, March last year for extensive remodeling and renovation of the interior, and which will be opening up again about a year, summer of 1978. And it's pleased to be down here this morning. So at least we can talk about it and remind that you itthat it still is here. Magnificent building overlooks Rice Park in the upper town, I believe it used to be called of downtown St. Paul. With Bruce Carlson of the Schubert Club, who forwhat was it, about a year and a half that you had your office here

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BRUCE CARLSON I think it was a year and a half.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah, for the time before the building underwent the major renovation now. Few offices were here, the Chamber of Orchestra and Schubert Club among others, historical society. And of course Minnesota Landmarks which is the non-profit organization, that's responsible for preserving it and making use of it. I read in this handsome book which the Minnesota Landmarks has put out, called 'A landmark Reclaimed.' It's a beautiful book that President Eisenhower and President Truman made speeches of this balcony, which is right behind us right out this window of this office on the second floor, there is kind of a narrow balcony which is now about a foot deep with water looking out towards Rice Park and there were magnificent reviewing stands build up there with bounding around it. What they said in the book answered question that was in my mind is that, they got out on the balcony the same way that you used to Bruce by crawling up that window which is in the next office down there.

BRUCE CARLSON Well, we were thinking about making a short three or four foot ladder to get up to the window cell

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BRUCE CARLSON and then another ladder down the other side that we weren't in here long enough to finish that project.

GARRISON KEILLOR Well I am sure they had a ladder to get out there but nonetheless. President stooped to go out on that balcony and speak to the public. There is a great deal of history associated with this building. Supposed to be true of any building, it was the home of Federal district and Circuit courts for many years, and also a number of Congressmen and Senators had their offices here. Andrew Volstead, I read in this book had his office upon the fifth floor from 1920 to 1932, a Minnesota Congressmen who was the father of Volstead act which everyone else knew is prohibition. Senator McCarthy and Senator Henrik Shipstead had their offices in this building. Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Warren Burger practiced law in this building for many years and was a judge here, was he not

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BETTY MUSSER I think he was not a judge here but he was active in the building and so is Henry Blackman. I think he was a clerk in one of the judges of courts.

GARRISON KEILLOR That's rightthat's right. Thousands of people became citizens in this building.

BETTY MUSSER Yes, Frank Marchitelli's father.

GARRISON KEILLOR Really. And thousands of people enlisted in the Armed forces during the two world wars out of this building. It was on this site that the first City Hall in St. Paul stood, and it was a building that was torn down in 1890s to make way for the Courts Building, but it is primarily because people loved it then it was preserved. This is Betty Musser with us also in this half hour, who is the Chairman of the Landmark Center Project Committee. We were talking before about change in attitudes over the last 15 years the drive has been underway, beginning as a pretty informal drive to preserve this building from the early 60s when the new Federal Building was under construction downtown. People feel differently now than they used to about saving all buildings. What sort of responses did you run into back then

BETTY MUSSER In the early days

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BETTY MUSSER It was pretty negative.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER It was pretty really negative, there were really a small group of very dedicated people preserving it. Then there was much larger group ofof people throughout the city. We felt that it was important, probably strangers come up and say, I am so glad the building wasn't turned down, but that group wasn't very vocal, and there were many skeptics. People who thought it was going to be too expensive to maintain who didn't recognize the...the solid structure that is very energy conserving actually. I think that it took some demonstration even cleaning it and putting the beautiful tile roof on began to bring about a change in attitude. People thought this really is a very handsome and distinguished building instead of that dirty old building.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. Did you ever pause it at any point to reflect that atleast two of the people and more who were instrumental in the drive. You and Mrs. Decosta. Some of the people who were trying to save it, many people who were trying to save it were women and most of the people who stood in positions to threaten it were men. Did you ever

BETTY MUSSER Yes, I don't want to attach too much importance to that, but I think that isstill may be, women have more time to devote wholeheartedly to something like that or may be they care more, I am not sure.

GARRISON KEILLOR It's about seven and a half minutes here before the hour. From the Old Federal Courts Building in St. Paul, the Landmarks Center looking out the door of an office here in the second floor towards the great court, courtile as it will be called when it's finished, which is undergoing extensive work out there. Piles of cement and iron pipes and plaster all around scaffolding up. What time do the workmen come in and start working here about 7 o'clock

BETTY MUSSER Yes, or 730.

GARRISON KEILLOR 700 or 730. So you will hear some construction sounds little bit later, we will be here through 9 o'clock this morning and good morning to you on Tuesday, today is the 29th of March. We'll play another piece of the automatic music here. This is from a Dutch band organ from the streets of Amsterdam, and this is the 'Tennessee Waltz.'

005601

MUSIC

005747

GARRISON KEILLOR The 'Tennessee Waltz' played on a Dutch band organ from the City of Amsterdam. We walked out of the second floor office to room 203 in the Old Federal Courts Building. We are standing out at the marble balustrade, here it looks down over the open court, may be able to hear just a slight murmur of the fans and the temporary heating system that's in, echoing here in this great open court under sky light still in the process of being cleaned I believe out there. The open court is surrounded by four floors ofactually three floors of offices with the balcony all the way around it. The open first floor where the post office used to be, those of you who are in the building, when the main post office and later a branch post office was here. I remember the workroom down here on the first floor, and the floor of the first floor in the court has been opened up down to the sub basement, revealing the beams on either side. And this is the place where an auditorium will be put in, in this second phase of restoration of the old Federal Courts Building. I believe that auditorium will just be roughed in at first, but eventually it would be an auditorium for showing films and small concerts and so on. Bruce Carlson with Schubert Club is here with us upon the balcony and Pamela Michalis of the Minnesota Landmarks and Betty Musser also. You are planning to make use of this auditorium, aren't you Bruce

005958

BRUCE CARLSON Yes, we are having a musical instrument collection in the north end of the first floor, and some of those instruments we will use in concerts in the auditorium, they can be played on and theneven with modern instruments contemporary pianos and so on. We intend to have concerts there, we have quite a few concerts with local artists and students right now in various halls around Minneapolis and St. Paul but it will be nice to have them down here. This auditorium will seat I think about 300 people. And it's going to be called the Frederick K. Weyerhaeuser auditorium. We will also show films in there, we show some 40 films a year right now in various locations, and so we have quite a bit of programmatic use in mind including, when the building opens in the summer of 1978 we have plans for a harpsichord fair here which will have performances on harpsichords by noted harpsichordist, and also seminars on different aspects of the history of harpsichord and construction of harpsichords. And we intend too to have people working on harpsichord kits hobbies and so on and. That will be one of the first shows in this building and it will be compatible with the age of the building, people interested in old instruments are probably interested in old buildings and the reverse.

GARRISON KEILLOR Looks as if three workmen have just...

010152

BETTY MUSSER That's right.

GARRISON KEILLOR Coming down on the first floor here and some other is coming in through the door, so they will be starting in probably in this next half hour in on the construction we wouldn't want to hold it up before even an hour and a half, yes to finish this show. I don't know if it's possible Mrs. Musser for a microphone to pick up anything of the soul of the building that I am sure that the soul of this building is out here in this magnificent court, it's courtile don't you feel that

BETTY MUSSER It really is, the heart of the building and it had some soul when...actually we occupied the building for two and a half years, and during that time there wereFriday noon lunches in that well, where the floor was you see that went across the first floor, and we had some plants and people brought in their brown bag lunches and we had music and there was a great response from the people wouldn't you say Bruce that...

010304

BRUCE CARLSON Oh yes.

BETTY MUSSER ...people love those brown bag lunches, and then we had some very wonderful candle light concerts in the courtrooms and with dinner served all around these balconies by candle light and it has great appeal.

GARRISON KEILLOR Are there ghosts in this building Do you have any feeling about that one way or the other, have you work here late nights ever Bruce

BRUCE CARLSON One night I was here, it was after mid night and I heard some fiery sounds from up on the fifth floor and I was a little bit afraid but I went up the stairs and it was a person who worked for the chamber orchestra publicity director who was practicing singing, when she thought no one was here. But that'seven though I have found out what it was when I got back down to my room I was still a little bit ghosty or scary.

GARRISON KEILLOR Well, I am not necessarily scared of ghost, I am just wondering if they exist here, do you have any opinion on that

BETTY MUSSER I think I have said to you this, when I came in at 0600 this morning was the most unusual hour that I ever was here, but I was little concerned when I thought of Pamela coming in, Pamela Michaelis at 0500 all by herself. May be she is the one to ask if she encountered any ghosts

GARRISON KEILLOR Well, we will find out about that and we will get to it in this next half hour. We are going to pause here for a few minutes for Arthur Hahn to give you to give you account of community happenings from our studios at St. John's University and then we will be back. With 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' this Tuesday morning March the 29th coming to you live from the Landmark Center, the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul. This is Public Radio in the Mid West.

010453

AUDIO BREAK

010511

GARRISON KEILLOR Who was the father of Malcolm Moose is that right

010514

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR Former President of the University.

BETTY MUSSER That was a proud evening when we dedicated that clock ph. It occurred on the occasion of Malcolm Moose' resignation from the University to go out to California, and he preferred to have something done to honor his father.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER And so his friends and relatives gathered at that time and the response was just wonderful, it was the easiest money I think I ever raised because, people really admired and loved Charles Moose and had great affection of course for Malcolm too.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER And it was a great celebration, that was a lovely ghost to remember.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah, and you were mentioning Judge Sanborn there were actually a couple of two or three judge Sanborn's who sat at bench in this building.

BETTY MUSSER There were two especially whose terms lasted over 75 years.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER And that was another tall moment for us we named the beautiful marble courtroom on the forth floor...

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER ...in honor of the two judges John B. and Walter Sanborn and I believe that was Walters' son Bruce Sanborn he who was about 94-years-old now...

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER ...came judge David wrote the citation and in it he said, he was never privileged to know Bruce's father, but having known the son he felt what the father was like, and there was another great spirit that has premiered I think our impressions of this building.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. It's about 11 and a half minutes now past the hour, and we will be back from the Landmark center in downtown St. Paul in just a moment to give you the weather forecasts other things. Just a little tune by Irving Berlin, appropriate for today I guess, it is still raining outside, isn't this a lovely day to be caught in the rain Ruby Braff in the George Barnes Quartet.

010726

GEORGE BARNES QUARTET plays

011002

GARRISON KEILLOR Fourteen and a half past the hour Ruby Braff, George Barnes Quartet, isn't it a lovely day to be caught in the rain. 43 degrees now in the Twin Cities and there is a light drizzle outside, we are expecting rain today through most of the day is forecast just a good chance of it. And it may be changing to snow late tonight and on Wednesday, highest today in the upper 40s in the Twin Cities. For Minnesota, rain in the north today possibly turning to snow tonight, a chance of rain showers in the South today and tonight, and over the state on Wednesday, highest today in the 40s in Minnesota with winds out at the North, North-East, 20 to 30 miles probably gusting to 40. For western Wisconsin today, cloudy skies rain is likely and high temperatures in the 40s in the North to the 60s in the South, North-Eastern Iowa sunlight rain today, and gusty winds in excess 40 miles per hour highest today in the upper 50s. There is a winter storm warning out for western and central North Dakota today, and for the entire state tonight. Rain changing to snow tonight in the east and the strong gusty winds out at the North, highest today in North Dakota will be pretty much what the temperatures are now the temperatures falling through the day to lowest tonight in the 20s. And for South Dakota windy and colder today with rain in the East changing to snow tonight and the chance of snow on Wednesday high temperatures today in the 40s in the East. Our program this morning the 29th Tuesday morning, coming to you from room 203 in the Landmark Center formally the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul. Room with somebody was telling me here a minute ago was the formal with the office of the Federal Communications Commission is that right Probably lot of broadcast engineers, just like you fellows took their first class license tests, it's on room right around here and went on the fame and fortune but that would be an inspiration to you. The building was the home of Federal district and circuit courts, the main post office from 1902 up till the new post office was built in 1933 over on Kellogg Boulevard, there was a branch post office in here up until late about 1974. Other Federal offices here including, the Custom Service, Internal Revenue and the supervising inspector of steam vessels I read in this history of the building which Minnesota Landmarks has put out called 'A Landmark Reclaimed' which also tells us that up on the fourth floor there were dormitories for railway mail service clerks coming in off the road on the railroad. None of Pamela Michaelis from Minnesota Landmarks is here, I am going to ask her about something, a photograph in this magnificent book that Minnesota Landmark has put out, a something called the living flag out in front of the Old Courts Building before it was an Old Courts Building in fact before it was finished in the year was what, 9...

011352

PAMELA MICHAELIS It was 1896 I believe in September.

GARRISON KEILLOR And here is the picture of him.

PAMELA MICHAELIS We haven't been able to determine exactly what the ceremony was, at first we thought it might have been of 4th of July ceremony but it is in September so it can't be that.

GARRISON KEILLOR Let me try and describe what it is. It is about, I would say a thousand people...

PAMELA MICHAELIS Uh-huh.

GARRISON KEILLOR ...atleast.

PAMELA MICHAELIS Children.

GARRISON KEILLOR Children, sitting on bleachers put up in front of this building and some of them are dressed in white and others presumably in red and blue and they form an American flag, with how many stars would it be in 1896 somebody knows I don't.

PAMELA MICHAELIS I don't either.

GARRISON KEILLOR You told me the other day that you heard from someone who was in the living flag of...

PAMELA MICHAELIS Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR ...1896.

PAMELA MICHAELIS A wonderful lady named Ms. Reimer came by my office, and apparently she lives in Kellogg Square, and she stopped by because we have a huge photograph of the living flag in the window of our office. And she came in and told me that she was a little girl, and she believed that she was in a white dress and she was part of the living flag, it was very exciting for her to see that picture, she haven't seen it I think ever.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. We are with Pamela Michaelis from Minnesota Landmarks and Betty Musser who is the chairman of the Landmark Center project and joined now by Mr. James Harland St. Paul Chamber Orchestra. We are going to play a little bit of music by your favorite orchestra here in this half hour in just a moment. This really is not that older building, it was put up within the life time of great many people who were not all that old themselves only in their 80s, dedicated in 1902.

PAMELA MICHAELIS This is the 75th birthday.

GARRISON KEILLOR That's right 1902, 1977. But it is a building that really stands at sort of a cross roads I would think in Minnesota history, I read in this book 'A Landmark Reclaimed' that Alexander Ramsey at the age of 83, the first territorial Governor of Minnesota who came to this state as a young man, as a young politician, was present at the dedication in 1902. And I imagine to him it was the building of the future, he had come here when there were only log cabins and frame structures, and there were only mud streets and steam boats down here at the landing on the river. And at the age of 83, he stood on the steps and saw across into the promised land there was something of the sort, great grand building in its day and still is but in its day must have been the idea center of the turn of the century.

011707

BETTY MUSSER Yes, it cost two and a half million dollars at that time that was a lot of money to put into...

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

BETTY MUSSER ...a building.

GARRISON KEILLOR Well congress didn't appropriate that much at first do they

BETTY MUSSER No.

GARRISON KEILLOR They dove it out slowly.

BETTY MUSSER Uh-huh.

GARRISON KEILLOR About $800,000 I believe is what was first appropriated for it in 1890 and 1891 when the house and senate approved it. James Harland is one of the persons who is going to have the good fortune of working in this building.

011742

JAMES HARLAND Already have for a little bit.

011744

GARRISON KEILLOR That's right you did.

JAMES HARLAND We worked up in the third floor for, how about two years, I see one of our signs over there still on another wall.

GARRISON KEILLOR We are in an office on the second floor, which is the contractor's office, and contractor and one of the architects, designing architects and one of the foremen will be into talk with this in this next half hour. What was it like working in this building before it was closed for this phase of renovation

JAMES HARLAND It was the sort of a mixture of excitement and yet a little spooky, because we were the only folks over here. And especially towards the end when sort of the light that was here and there was a lot of light in the building when we were here, there was events that took place down the courtyard and drawing attention to the building. And then it was like sort the air being let out of a balloon and as one by one we all left.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

JAMES HARLAND And we were the last ones have been to leave, as I recall one of the real last ones and, and towards the end there is a inaudible went off this week and that week and all of a sudden we were there, left all alone, looking for the right turn to go was, it was kind of a strange experience.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

JAMES HARLAND And it's going to be good to see it come back to life again another, or was it now about a 16, 18 months some where it's around there.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

JAMES HARLAND And we are looking forward to coming back.

GARRISON KEILLOR Will you be back in your same office there on upstairs

JAMES HARLAND No, we moved over to the I believe the North side of the building.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

JAMES HARLAND And some office spaces up there and hopefully we will havewe will be rehearsing here in the facility downstairs in the little auditorium down there.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

JAMES HARLAND We would like to make that into our permanent rehearsal space if we can.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

JAMES HARLAND If it works out from an musical stand point and doing some noon time performances here when she opens back up.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

JAMES HARLAND It will be a nice home with St. Paul Chamber Arts a very, very nice home.

GARRISON KEILLOR You refer to the building as she Do you think of it that way

JAMES HARLAND Well, I want a boat I guess and I think of my boat as she, and I guess I think of a place that I call home in the female gender. And I don't know why I do that I never thought about that before. But my yata call she of course and I guess, I just thought this building as a she, I don't know what that is...

JAMES HARLAND May be it's back to the womb sort of thing, I don't know.

GARRISON KEILLOR Has the Chamber Arts do ever played in this great court out here

JAMES HARLAND Yes we do, we did do a concert in the Great Court out there with thewe did a couple as a matter of fact, one that we sponsored ourselves with did in place with the jazz pianist Keith Jarrett, and the second time we did a concert out there in the Great Court. It was little echoic but it was kind of exciting to be able to walk around the balconies and look down and see the orchestra playing and all that sort of thing, it was very, very exciting.

BETTY MUSSER Jim, one of the most memorable concerts we ever had. I think might have predated you, when we had Dennis Russell Davies and inaudible and the quartet played the Schubert Trout, and by candle light in the courtroom. I don't think anyone will ever forget that evening it was so beautiful.

JAMES HARLAND That was up in the third floor courtroom.

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

JAMES HARLAND It's a beautiful wood paneled courtroom up there, and we did small series of concerts out there as matter of fact. With wine and cheese and featuring various members of the orchestra. And they were all just delightful. Candles and lamps and so it was like coming into your living room and finding 75 people, and then all sitting down and enjoying evening and music. Not really a formal concert but sort of an evening the friends getting together and listening to just some nice music and

BETTY MUSSER It was like Salzburg.

JAMES HARLAND Yes, it was.

BETTY MUSSER The concerts in the palaces, they

JAMES HARLAND Pretty much sopretty much indeed.

GARRISON KEILLOR Would it be all right for me to play little bit of recording by the orchestra

JAMES HARLAND Love it, just love it. What are we going to hear

GARRISON KEILLOR I think we will hear March by Mozart from his cassation in D major from your Nonsuch recording. St. Paul Chamber orchestra Dennis Russell Davies conducting.

012151

ST. PAUL CHAMBER ORCHESTRA plays "MARCH"

012617

GARRISON KEILLOR The 'March' from the Mozart cassation in D major played by the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra Mr. Dennis Russell Davies conducting. 31 minutes now past 0700. We are going to pause here for the news with Rich Steven. And then be back to talk some more about the Landmark Center, the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul, where our program is coming to you this morning live from room 203 over public radio in the mid-west.

012651

RICH STEVEN Thank you Garrison Keillor and good morning. I am Rich Steven in St. Paul. At last report, the Twin Cities reported 44 degrees and cloudy skies with some drizzle. The Duluth report is missing this morning as is the St. Cloud report. Sioux Falls reports light rain and 44 and some of the other reporting stations around are also missing. Fargo-Moorhead temperature is not in at this hour. We will have a regional forecast at the end of this news cast. The US House of Representatives votes today on whether to give president Carter the authority to reorganize the executive branch of the Federal Government. But the final version of Carter's proposal may be different from what he had originally asked for. Linda Wertheimer has more.

012730

LINDA WERTHEIMER The authority to reorganize the Federal Government sailed through the senate and then had a road block in the house called Jack Brooks of Texas, Chairman of the House government operations committee, who was not prepared to give the president what he wanted. Carter wanted authority to bring unlimited numbers of reorganization plans to the congress, Brooks said three pending at one time. Carter wanted no limit as to subject matter, Brooks said logically consistent plans. Carter wanted his reorganization plans to go into effect automatically unless either House disapproved or one House veto in effect. Brooks held out for an affirmative vote in both houses. But Jack Brooks lost that one, the compromise arrangement which will be debated in the house today calls for a resolution of disapproval to be automatically sent to the house to the available if any member wants a vote on any of the President's reorganization plans. After the bill passes the house, it goes to conference with the senate past version which is more to President Carter's liking. And the final battle will be fought there. I am Linda Wertheimer at the capital.

RICH STEVEN Secretary of State Cyrus Vance and Soviet foreign minister Gromyko are back at the negotiating table today for a second of talks centering on arms control. Gromyko reportedly expressed his support yesterday for an agreement based on limit set forth in the 1974 meeting between Soviet leader Breshnev and then President Ford. The Carter administration is offering a new arms package which would reduce arms below the levels set at the Vladivostok conference three years ago. In a related note, the Norwegian Seismological Institute reports what it thinks was an underground atomic explosion in the eastern part of the Soviet Republic of Kazakhstan, the Swedish Seismological Institute also said it recorded the shocks.

Fighting is reported in the Copper Ridge southern portion of Zaire between government forces and invaders from Angola again today, some 40 Americans employed by a private firm are in the area, and one of them reached by telephone says he has seen many wounded soldiers brought into the town of Covezzi ph. Southern Zaire was invaded three weeks ago by about 2,000 soldiers most of them are said to be veterans of the 1960 attempt by a province in southern Zaire to succeed.

A major disagreement among Lebanese right wing forces over the appointment of a new army commander has prompted a partial strike in the Christian sector of Beirut today. A call for a general shutdown was issued by the former Lebanese President Camille Chamoun who was opposed to the President Elias Sarkis over that appointment, but reports from the Christian sector say that less than 30 percent of the businesses have shutdown.

American authorities are planning to fly 56 seriously injured survivors of Sunday's runway collision between two Jumbo jets from the Canary Islands to a burn center in the United States. But the operation has been grounded so far today by dense fog. When it lifts, the injured will be flown to a burn unit of the Brooke Army Medical Center in Texas. A West St. Paul widow who was planning a Mediterranean cruise is listed as one of the victims of that fatal crash in the Santa Cruz, De Tenerife Island of the Canary Islands. Authorities say 67 year old Mrs. Emily Kohler had taken a charted flight from New York to the Canary Islands accompanied by a friend Mrs. Tracy Bridge formerly of St. Paul. Both were aboard the Pan American Boeing 747, which was taxiing toward to take off Sunday when it crossed the runway and was hit by a Dutch airliner. Minnesota Governor Rudy Perpich made one of his surprise visits to Milan, Minnesota, a town of 427 in the western part of the State. He did so late yesterday. The governor accompanied by two aids and one reporter made the 130 mile trip from the Twin Cities to find out first hand, about complaints about the phone service. He visited two homes in the town of Milan and went nearby a farm to find out about a recent splitting of an exchange and resulting in higher rates for phone calls to some areas than thehigher rather than the former exchange.

The Minnesota Senate yesterday gave preliminary approval to the bill raising the minimum wage in Minnesota from $2.10 an hour to $2.30. The minimum wage for persons under 18 years would be 10 percent less. Senator John Milton of White Bear Lake DFL'er is the author of the bill. He said the measure only provides adequate wages for those willing to work.

The City of St. Paul has donated some $35,000 to a new program to cut down on unemployment. The City is contributing funds to Ramsey County opportunities industrialization center for a six month pilot project to train the chronically unemployed on how to get and keep the job. The center is hoping for matching private contributions from area businesses and plans to reach some 200 people this year. The center will operate through the St. Paul Cedar office accepting referrals from Cedar councilors for clients who seem to have the greatest difficulty finding jobs due to their lack of skills or training. The program rather is based on one developed in Philadelphia by reverent Leon Sullivan. The Executive Director of the center Alley Mayhampton says that despite rising unemployment figures there are many jobs left on field because of the lack of trained employees.

013231

ALLEY MAYHAMPTON You look at your newspaper everyday. You have all kinds of jobs going running without anybody. And they all are running without anybody because nobody was trying. So one of the things that Reverend Leon Sullivan had his execs all over this county do was send to their office in Philadelphia a copy of your newspaper. And then they came back and told how many programs and how many jobs there was floating around in this country that nobody was filling.

RICH STEVEN Alley Mayhampton, Executive Director of the Ramsey County Opportunities Industrialization Center, a new program for training the unemployed. The Minnesota House gave preliminary approval yesterday to a bill raising the amount of stolen goods classified as felony from $100 to $300. Bob Porter has that story.

013321

BOB PORTER Supporters of the bill said the felony classification should be raised to compensate for inflation. And indeed the measure was approved on a voice vote but only after lengthy arguments both this session and last Thursday by lawyer members of the House. They debated how the change might affect law enforcement. House minority leader Henry Savelhoul successfully amended the bill to rise the minimum fine $300 to $500 and required judges to consider restitution to crime that these went practical. In other action the House gave preliminary approval to a bill permitting 10 small school districts to discontinue the full kindergarten to 12th grade curriculum required by law. One district could for example, close its high school in contract with the nearby district to take on those students. This would let the small districts a void consolidation and could be an alternative to the school reorganization bill, which has received so much criticism in rural areas. The House also defeated 76 to 37, the measure which would have prevented such traffic offenses as speeding, running the stop light and so forth from being reported to the Department of Public Safety. Such offenses are petty misdemeanors. Author Bernard Brinkman said the measure would keep insurance companies from finding out about the violations and rising insurance rates, but other representatives said the bill would only result in higher rates for good drivers. Brinkman may try to bring the bill up again. This is Bob Porter

RICH STEVEN At the Peltier trial yesterday in Fargo, the prosecution announced that it would call to the witness stand Ronald Flowinga, a Milwaukee Wisconsin police officer. Flowinga was allegedly assaulted by Leonard Peltier in a bar in Milwaukee in November of 1972. That incident lead to a warrant for attempted murder being served on Peltier. After meeting bail Peltier neglected to appear in court on the charge. Peltier is currently on trial for allegedly murdering two FBI agents during a shoot out on south Dakota's Pine Ridge Indian reservation in June of 1975. There is a winter storm watch out for the western Dakota today and over the entire portion of north Dakota by tonight. Rain also at this hour covers most of the five State region, snow in the western Dakota is also falling. Strong northerly winds are gusting up to 40 and 50 miles per hour in some portions of North and South Dakota. Rain may turn to snow in some portions of northern western Minnesota by tonight.

013536

AUDIO BREAK

013538

MALE SPEAKER The building we are in now as well as the State capital and other buildings of that area had awere very classic in their style. They encased a large grant spaces like in this building, we have this four storiedreally six storey high courtile areas, it's an interior court from whichI mean from the first floor you can enjoy this grant open space. Right now it's kind of a mess as you can outside. But when it's done it will be a beautiful restoration of the original character of the building the State capital has its rotunda. Your modern office buildingsyour modern government buildings are generally built under a functional theme trying to create the greatest amount of space for a modest cost. However, that doesn't mean to say we still don't build grant spaces. Probably one of the best examples of the current architecture of the interior spaces that you find in your new hotels, the Hyatt Hotels especially with their grant 10 and 12 storey interior spaces. So it isn'twe can't just say that we don't do this anymore but, for an office structure you generally do it as kind of a machine for serving a certain function.

013659

GARRISON KEILLOR Well I should mention that the St. Paul Chapter of the American Institute of Architects was among the very first groups in St. Paul that got behind the idea of preserving this building, I believe it was 1965 when they recommended its preservation. Has it been a pleasure for you to work on this, how long have you been working on it

MALE SPEAKER We have working on it about three years I would guess, may be it's four. Prior to our involvement however, therethe Brooks Caven the St. Paul architect was involved in the restoration of the exterior of the building, the cleaning of the building and putting on the new tile roof of course, and prior to that there was an involvement of many groups, not architects, in the saving of the building. I believe it was in 1967, may be you have covered this already but, when the occupants of the building moved out and down to Robert street into the new Federal Courts building and then shortly thereafter, this building was declared surplus property. And could have been torn down if it weren't for group of public citizens which I am sure you are going to be talking about. That saved the building and then it was a long battle from that point to bring it to today's position.

GARRISON KEILLOR We are going to pause here just briefly for station identification at two and one half minutes past 0800. You are listening to 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' coming to you from the Landmark Center in downtown St. Paul, the Old Federal Courts Building over public radio in the mid west. We are back now and good morning, welcome to the third hour of 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' for Tuesday the 29th of March. With us in this half hour, coming up towards the news at 0830. Wayne Winsor of WinsorFaricy design architects involved in the restoration of this building and Betty Musser Chairman of the Landmark Center project is sitting nearby doing her stitching. And Virginia Koonz the Ramsey County Historical Society is coming in to join us here. Mr. Winsor you mentioned the work on the exterior of the old Courthouse Building, as I recall there were some public controversy about that. People have gotten used to the color of the building, which after 70 or some years was kind of dull grayish black color. And after it was cleaned the St. Cloud red granite, isn't it on the exterior

013953

WAYNE WINSOR It's just red granite, but not the St. Cloud.

GARRISON KEILLOR Red graniteit assumed the kind of a pinkish, a light pinkish color that some people took a while to get used to. Are there going to be some surprises for people when the building is opened again next summer

WAYNE WINSOR Well, I think the only surprises will be pleasant ones. The space that people who have come to this building for years and years will be more open than it used to. There was a post office on the first floor and the first floor had a roof over it. So when you entered it looked like a one storey space you know, now when you enter the post office area has been removed and you can enjoy there is tremendous interior court, the four storey high court I mentioned a while ago, and that they will be restored back to its original. As best we can determine its original colors and character and will be attractively lighted and it will become just a great social space for the people of the Twin Cities to enjoy.

GARRISON KEILLOR I think that is one of the big changes that people will notice when it is open next summer is the great amount of natural light in this building which had been closed off over the years by sky lights being covered with asphalt and

WAYNE WINSOR That's right.

GARRISON KEILLOR windows being painted over. It's going to be a

WAYNE WINSOR People weren't aware of the sky light at all until you got up on the second and third and fourth floors. On the first floor you couldn't see it at all. And now the entire interior space will be flooded by this great sky light.

GARRISON KEILLOR Thank you Mr. Winsor for joining us this morning.

WAYNE WINSOR Pleasure.

GARRISON KEILLOR It's about a five and a half minutes past 8 o'clock. Ms. Koonz of the Ramsey County Historical Society is with us this morning and you know, we have just touched on little bits of the history of this building, as we have gone along the past two hours. And I think it's time that we did a chronological and brief but, systematic history of this building. Now I have some notes from my reading of this wonderful book that was put out by the Minnesota Landmarks project called 'A Landmark Reclaimed.' Which by the way our listeners can obtain either in bookstores or by mail. And we give you an address and the price of it and a little bit, it's a wonderful book on the history of this building with many photographs of it as it was and is today, and architects renderings of how it will look in another year or two. I said before, and you correct me if I am wrong that the first City Hall St. Paul was built on this site between the 5th and 6th on market street in upper town St. Paul in 1857.

014300

VIRGINIA KOONZ Yes that's right Garrison, it was. It was on the north east corner of this intersection here between the streets down here. And it was a place that stood for a surprisingly a long time, it was here next to it of course was one of the famous old schools in St. Paul called the Baldwin school, which had been founded by one of the first Presbyterian missionaries out here Rev. Ed Neill, who also wrote I think one of the best histories of early St. Paul which is still available a number of places. It doesn't circulate but you can find it in libraries. Neill was a very colorful educated and a very colorful writer.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

VIRGINIA KOONZ And the school that he founded traveled around the Twin Cities area for a while after it was located here it moved over to Minneapolis. It came back and sort of reemerged as the Macalester College. So there were these two historic structures on this site, and I remember seeing newspaper articles at the time the old Federal Courts Building was being planned in 1880s and the 1890s there were protests in St. Paul over the tearing down of these two historic structures. So you see preservation of historic structures is a movement that is not new at all.

GARRISON KEILLOR The building wasthe funds for the building re-voted by the senate and the house in 1890 and '91 and the design was completed in 1892, and the excavation began in that same year with the architect Cass Gilbert as the first Superintendent of construction. The plan for that first building was actually little smaller than the building that stands here now. Congress only voted $800,000 for the courthouse. When they voted additional money in 1898 the original plan was put into effect to extent the building all the way north to 6th Street, have it occupy the entire block. It was finished and dedicated and the post office moved in 1902, 75 years ago, May the 5th.

VIRGINIA KOONZ Very good.

GARRISON KEILLOR Thank you, I am reading from notes. And it stood as the Home of Government offices, internal revenue, custom service, surveyors, railway mail service now there iswas being the main post office through 1933 and the Home of Federal courts, the District Attorney, US Marshall, so that a whole period of rather interesting criminal history, St. Paul in 20s and 30s took place in this building. Edwin talk about that in a little bit.

014601

FEMALE SPEAKER Around the 1920s it was probation era as we remember and I think it's interesting that representative Andrew Walstead who sponsored the probation amendment to the constitution in congress had his office here. He was actually a Congressmen from south-western Minnesota. But during the 1920s he took over the administration of the probation program here in this area and he had his office here in this building.

GARRISON KEILLOR And I mentioned that when the building is finished, correct me if I am wrong Mrs. Musser but you are going to have a look at license here aren't you

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BETTY MUSSER That hasn't been

GARRISON KEILLOR You are going to have a ratskeller down in the sub basement

BETTY MUSSER We go in to a kind of some restaurant person who will develop that, it's a marvelous area. A two stories high with very attractive setting for a restaurant but that isn't in this particular stage and so that is for future development.

GARRISON KEILLOR Well if you do, open up an establishment in this building, make sure that it's not in Andrew Walstead's office

BETTY MUSSER Yes.

GARRISON KEILLOR on the 5th floor.

BETTY MUSSER That might be one of the ghosts that you were talking about early, one of the ghosts.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yes, it may be. But it was in this building Ms. Koonz pardon me for interrupting you that, that there were many trials during probation for boot leggers. I assume there were many in this area during 20s.

VIRGINIA KOONZ I think that one of the things that we remember most about this period is the trials. But there were some other interesting things that were going on too. This was the headquarters of the governmental units that organized raids on a illegal stills in the St. Paul area. And we carried a fast dating article in the magazine that we published at Ramsey county history written by a secretary ofWalstead's secretary actually and telling about how the law enforcement officer is in the alcohol and tax division moved out and how they locate stills and they wouldwe have a number of pictures of them hauling in some of these illegal stills here into the building and destroying them. And all of this surveillance activity as far as illegal liquor is concerned was centered here in the building. And it reads very much like this chapter out of an old crime novel. It wasit's a very colorful period. The building was not the just the headquarters here for St. Paul but it served a wide area of Minnesota and a good part of the upper mid west. And other fact about it is it fits very neatly in to some of the St. Paul historySt. Paul you know, is the transportation center of this area. It is a gateway to the opening of the west. The building reflects this period in the city's history also because units in this building serve such a wide area. Beyond St. Paul it was really the presencethe Federal Government's presence here in the upper mid west. And the trials that were held here reflect the activities of the various agencies such as the agricultural agency, civil service, many of them. The customs houses after the middle of the 1930s when the old customs house a block or so away was torn down, the north end of this building became the customs house. Recruiting officers were held here. This is the place that, people will have to join the Navy, to join the Army. This is where they came to me over, this is where they came to observe trials to serve on juries or to testify. This is where they came to apply for permits of many kinds to get their passports. This is where people came to clear their things to customs if they have been abroad. It was very much a people building, very oriented to people's activities.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

VIRGINIA KOONZ Very much a part of their lives.

GARRISON KEILLOR There is a wonderful chapter in this book of 'Landmark Reclaimed' about the Old Federal Courthouse at St Paul written by the late Nate Barnberg who is the Police reporter for the St Paul Pioneer Press and dispatch about St Paul in the 20s and the 30s, when St Paul was a heaven for mobsters, gangsters from the East. The Karpis and Barker gang hung out in St. Paul and Roger Touhy and others and were allowed, as I understand toto live here without being bothered by the police along as they didn't commit crimes in St. Paul. They broke that.

VIRGINIA KOONZ Yes, that's when the system

GARRISON KEILLOR Informal arrangement.

VIRGINIA KOONZ that's when the system fell apart.

GARRISON KEILLOR With a series of kidnappings in the 30s, William Hamm and Edward Bremmer in this community and the trials for those kidnappings took place in this building of Alvin Karpis and Doc Barker. Is that a chapter of St Paul's history that the historical society is interested in

VIRGINIA KOONZ Yes, of course we are intrigued by it.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

VIRGINIA KOONZ It'sit would be good. It's a very colorful history, it's a nationally known history because as you say, and as Nick pointed out of this rather informal agreement that spreads to the underworld that, as long as they didn't commit crimes here, they wouldn't be bothered, and as you pointed out, it fell apart when they forgot this agreement and they began to touch St. Paul citizens. But it's a reflection also of this whole period in American history, this kind of thing wasn't unique to St. Paul as far as the trials were concerned, and as far as the crime itself was concerned. It was very much apart of the period. We had perhaps a little more in the...the agreement to stay out of trouble here and we won't bother you. We had perhaps a rather unique situation, but it was all part of that general lawlessness, colorful and it seems in a way it's sort of an innocent form of crime that took place in America during that period. It seems innocent when we look at what we are dealing with now, it seems rather elementary crime. But it was a part of it. It's very colorful.

GARRISON KEILLOR Seventeen minutes here past 8 o'clock. We are going to pause here to give you the weather forecast just briefly, and then we will be back to talk more about the more recent history of this building, which I think is as exciting as its early history. The history over the last 10, 15 and 20 years when a great effort was put on to save it from destruction. There is a chance of rain showers today in the twin cities. We should have high temperatures today in the upper 40s and the rain may be turning to snow or mixed with snow tonight. For Minnesota, rain today possibly turning to snow tonight in the north. Chance of rain and snow showers over the state on Wednesday also and winds out of the north, 20 to 30 miles per hour, gusting to 40 today, highest today in the 40s. For Western Wisconsin, cloudy with rain likely today and high temperatures in the 40s in the north, 50s in the south, Northeastern Iowa some light rain today is expected and rather windy weather with high temperatures in the upper 50s. There is a winter storm warning out for North Dakota, Central North Dakota today and the entire state tonight, rain changing to snow with strong gusty winds out of the north and temperatures falling through the day today to lowest tonight in the upper 20s, windy and colder in South Dakota also with snow and blowing snow on the west today, and a chance of snow across the state tonight. With high temperatures today in the 40s in the East. We had a request from a listener for guitar piece by John Fay program today for her birthday. It's 19 minutes past 0800. This is John Fay and 'My Grandfather's Clock.'

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JOHN FAY plays "MY GRANDFATHER'S CLOCK"

015633

GARRISON KEILLOR 'My Grandfather's Clock' played by John Fay. As you can hear from the noises in the background, or may be not so much in the background as we think. They are at work, out in the great center court, courtile of the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St Paul the Landmark Center where our program is originating live this morning. With Virginia Koonz of the Ramsey County Historical Society and Mrs. Betty Musser, Minnesota Landmarks project and Pamela Michaelis of the Landmarks project too with us in this half hour. I don't know Mrs. Koonz I can really summarize in just a few minutes the history of the attempts to save this building since the late 50s, early 60s when the government announced that it was building a new Federal building in downtown St Paul. It involved a great many people, a few at first and more as the campaign grew. It involved a number of committees and commissions and organizations. But I would say that several St. Paul Mayors were very important in the attempt, beginning back in 1965 when Mayor inaudible and the Ramsey County commissioners appointed separate committees to investigate a future use of the Old Courts Building through the feasibility study that was issued in 1969 by the Mayors Committee to preserve the Old Federal Courts Building which said that indeed could be done and recommended that it be done. People like George Decosta who is the first executive Secretary of the Mayor's committee who is instrumental in that campaign and Mrs. Betty Musser who is with us in this half hour, who beginning as President of the St. Paul council of Arts and Sciences, began to take an interest in this building as a possible center for some of the council agencies to move into. The building was transferred to City of St. Paul into the hands of the City in 1972. as a result of a law which again is too complicated for me to go into in great detail. The Surplus Property Act amendment on 1972, which essentially made it easier for the government to transfer title of surplus property to local bodies without so many of the conditions attached to that transfer as there were before. That was the only beginning, however, gaining title to the building, the difficult job yet remained of deciding what to do with it and raising funds for the refurbishing of it. The first phase of its renovation, a very necessary phase, including the weather proofing of the building and installation of a new roof took place in 1973 and 1974. In the interim, in '74 and '75 some offices including, the Ramsey County Historical Society moved into the building. The building was used for a period of couple of years for public meetings and concerts and poetry readings, and many things went on here to prove to people to bring people into the building and to...and to raise interest in it. And now, since March of last year, the building is undergoing the second phase of its renovation, and from the sounds of the equipment out there reconstruction actually of the...of the interior. We have asked other people whoduring that two year period when the building was open for public use. Other people who lived and worked in this building, what it was like and I will ask you what it was like to be here in Landmark Center.

020105

VIRGINIA KOONZ We have moved our headquarters in here in the fall of 1973. and we have officering out at our museum which is the Gibbs Farm Museum, and in rather crowded space but I think most of us that look forward to move very much, we had all been in love with the building for quite a long time and it was a magnificent experience to be down here, and there was this something aboutthere was an air about the building, an air of stateliness. And it was a wonderful atmosphere to work in and particularly for historians, they should the sense of being a part of history. We had for a long time wanted to do something on the history of St. Paul and so after we came in here with the encouragement of our board and the building people, Mrs. Musser and Mrs. Decosta, we developed a series of displays on the history of St. Paul beginning in the very early years up through 1849 when Minnesota became a territory. It's the first display, we mounted it, we actually finished it, it was a great deal of work and we are very surprised really that it was successful as it was. We opened it in the spring of 1974 and then immediately began working on the second phase.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

VIRGINIA KOONZ Which was the history of the city between 1849 and 1858 when Minnesota became a state and that was the display we had up until welike the other agencies had to move out a year ago.

GARRISON KEILLOR Yeah.

VIRGINIA KOONZ And we had ourI remember we had our annual meetings here. The first one that we had to turn people away because it was such an exciting kind of program to have, we had a candle light dinner in the gallery around the open court upon the fourth floor. And that night judge Edward David who has been very active in the preservation of the building and was one of the federal judges here gave the program. He gave a talk on his memories of the building. Another meeting that we had here, an annual meeting for the historical society was held out on the first floor of the open court. Again a candle light dinner and that night when they helped us some of the Macalester drama students we did a Reader's Theater presentation on memories that people had of their early years in St. Paul, it's a great exciting period.

GARRISON KEILLOR We have a couple of minutes here, before we get to the news and I want to ask you as I think I have asked other people in the last two and a half hours, a question of why, why do you preserve old buildings. There are many people around the state who are engaged in this sort of work in their own communities. We can name a few of them any way in Duluth the old Railroad Depot there, and the Washington County Courthouse in Stillwater, Courthouse in Winona, who have a great deal of convincing to do in their own communities to persuade county boards and municipal officials and others, but this is something that is worth doing to preserve old buildings that may not be profoundly historic in the sense that, great earth shaking events took place within their walls. But to convince them to preserve them and to put them to use. Why Why do we want to do it

VIRGINIA KOONZ Now there are a number of elements involved Garrison, I think that one of the major reasons for preserving is that, it's what the building offers, it's a beautiful building, it has an air of stateliness, a sense of history, but beyond that you cannot urge preservation unless you have a plan for using it, it has to be economically feasible to use the building and Wayne talked about that a little earlier in which you were talking about the economics of trying to replace a building of this kind.

GARRISON KEILLOR Okay.

VIRGINIA KOONZ So that's the third thing. First is the history, the historical era, the second is the economical feasibility and third is the alternative. Can you replace it with something that you can afford beyond If you can convince your people that the building can be used and you have good plan for using it again then it's going to be an economic asset for the community. Then you've got 75 percent way toward preservation unless you can do that it's very difficult. And the plan for this building has been a beautiful plan excellently very, very well worked out. It's one of the reasons for our success.

GARRISON KEILLOR Thank you Virginia Koonz, from the Ramsey County Historical Society for joining us this morning. The time is exactly 0830. We will pause for station identification and then the news with Rich Steven. You are listening to 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' coming to you live from the Landmark Center, the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St Paul over public radio in the mid west.

020623

RICH STEVEN Good morning. I am Rich Steven reporting from St Paul with a summary of weather and news. At last report the Twin Cities office of the National Weather Service reported the radar summary rather showed light rain over east central and South Eastern Minnesota and Western Wisconsin. The storm cells or the rain cells really were moving northward at about 20 miles per hour. Elsewhere over at Northern Minnesotaover Minnesota rather and Northern Iowa patchy light rain or drizzle is occurring. At 8 o'clock the weather service reported light drizzle. The cloudy conditions in 38 degrees in St. Cloud, Rochester reports 44 degrees and the Twin Cities 43 degrees and light rain. US and Spanish officials are to inspect today the runway of Santa Cruz, the Tenerife airport where the worst aviation disaster in history occurred on Sunday. A Pan American Jet pulled into the path of a KLM jet traveling at 150 miles per hour for take off. The resulting collision killed 575 persons. Officials were trying to determine today if enough of the runway has been cleared of debris to land a US Air Force plane. The planned air lift 60 of the 70 survivors back to the US for treatment at an Army Burn Center in Texas. Some members of Congress have reservations about President Carter's plan for a cabinet level Department of Energy, two influential members are to tell why today as they testify before a House government operation sub committee. Chairman of the House Interior Committee Morris Udall says the plan doesn't deal with the practices of oil companies that he feels discouraged competition and the Chairman of the House of Commerce subcommittee on energy John Dingle, is expected to challenge the plan for putting the jobs of regulating energy and promoting it in the same department. The Human Rights issue at least temporarily set aside today, Secretary of State Cyrus Vance resumed meetings with top officials in Moscow. Vance began his day by conferring the Soviet Foreign Minister Andrei Gromyko on such issues as Arms control and the middle east. Yesterday Vance received a sharp criticism from communist party leader Leonid Brezhnev who told him the Carter administration support for Soviet dissidents violates the principle of non-interference in other nation's domestic affairs. Soviet President Nikolai Podgorny today left Zambia for Mozambique, the third and final stop of his African tour during his four day visit. Podgorny discussed the southern African situation with Zambia's President and according to western diplomats black nationalist movement leaders appealed to him for more and sophisticated weapons. At the disarmament conference in Geneva today, the United States said that, any ban on chemical weapons should prohibit training and planning for their use as well as eliminating all such weapons themselves. US negotiator Howard Myers told the 30 nation conference that a new agreement should supplement the existing Geneva protocol banning use of chemical weapons by prohibiting preparations for their use. The French will be beginning a new cabinet this week. French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing says the new cabinet will be less political but his opponents say that expect a little change. Arthur Higbe has more from Paris.

020924

ARTHUR HIGBE French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing has asked his Prime Minister Raymond Barr to form a new streamlined non political government to run France until next year's legislative elections. A government spokesman announced that Barr will submit the list for his new cabinet to Giscard on Wednesday. The cabinet shakeup is Giscard's response to the stealing defeat of his government coalition by the socialist communist opposition of last week's legislative elections. The left is unimpressed by the shakeup saying, it is simply a cosmetic reshuffle rather than a forward going reform. One opposition leader Roger Shwastenburg talked that Barr, replacing Barr hardly adds up too much of a change. Aruthur Higbe.

RICH STEVEN Reports yesterday by the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis said the regions economy remains strong despite the 1976 drought. The bank said non-agricultural sectors of the economy were strong enough in the second half of 1976 to prevent a general economic down turn in the ninth Federal Reserve District. The district covers Minnesota the Dakotas, Montana, North Western Wisconsin and upper Michigan. Heating oil prices that exceeded Federal guidelines in the North Central United States have prompted the Federal Energy Administration to consider price controls and price rollbacks. This according to an announcement by a federal official in Chicago yesterday, Eisen Maple said an advisory committee found heating oil prices charged to industrial and commercial users in this region reached 48.4 cents per gallon in January, that's 0.4 cents above the indexed price. The Minnesota senate has to give some preliminary approval to the house pass bill repealing a law requiring motorcycle riders to wear helmets the proposal was approved on the standing vote yesterday with at least 34 senators indicating support for the measure. The House agricultural committee yesterday approved legislation that would regulate weather modification in Minnesota, Bob Porter has that that story.

021113

BOB PORTER The legislation audio break since the scientific evidence of its effectiveness is still unclear, but as author Russ Stanton notes weather modification is occurring in Minnesota. 21 Counties were involved last year. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were spend. Stanton says the legislation will regulate weather modification projects and personnel.

021136

RUSS STANTON We required that a person engaged in weather modification get a license and prove they know something about cloud physics and meteorology and weather before they start trying to modify the weather. Secondly, we require a permit by these people before they can get involved in doing weather modification, and the permit will specify the conditions under which they can do it. I will say for instance, you can do weather modification in this specific area that it will state under these conditions and the reason we do this is for instance we don't want two weather modifiers operating in a close proximity to each other or may be component in each others results. Secondly, we want to make sure they use proper radar for instance so they know the difference between the hail cloud and a rain cloud and don't get some adverse results. So the permit was spelled as all out and to protect the public interest that way.

021223

BOB PORTER Russ Stanton Chief house author of weather modification legislation. Major questions about weather modification remain several weather experts testify the cloud seeding is less effective during droughts precisely when it is needed most, there is concern that the additional ten percent rain produced may not be worth the cost and of course there is a possibility of rain rustling, the idea that the one area might take moisture which would naturally fall down wind. Under the legislation the Commission appointed by the governor will look into these and other concerns and report back to the legislature. The measure now goes to the House Appropriations Committee to consider the $100,000 cost of administering the program through the Agriculture Department over two years. A companion measure is being heard in the senate. This is Bob Porter.

021309

RICH STEVEN Governor Rudy Perpich called on President Carter yesterday to reconsider his stand on farm price reports for the next year in a statement the governor said, the recommendations of Secretary of Agriculture Robert Bergland were far more realistic as a target for price or loan programs for farmers and ranchers, and Governor Perpich was traveling last night visiting the small community of Milan, Minnesota located North of Montevideo in the western part of the State. Perpich drove to Milan to talk with residents who are protesting an increase in their telephone rates. The City of St. Paul is contributing some $35,000 to a new program for the chronically unemployed. The Ramsey County opportunities industrialization center will operate through the St. Paul Cedar office accepting the clients who seem to have the most difficulty finding or keeping jobs due to the lack of training or work experience. The center plans to reach some 200 people this year, and is hoping for increase private contributions to match the City money. The centers executive director Ally Mayhampton says that the center will try to help people understand what they must do to get work and it will not openly direct people towards particular jobs.

021413

ALLY MAYHAMPTON If you ask that person what is that you want to do, and that person may give you the moon, but now one of the things that our people who are trained well enough to know is that, even if a person came and told they want to be a doctor and they might not have been in high school, when you finally you give them or her all the resources that they have to look at, they are going to end up. You wont have to tell them they don't want to be a doctor. When you look at all the work that they have got to do, and then look at how many years they have got to spend at school, how much money they have got to spend, they may end up being an inaudible. And what they were really saying to you in the first place I want to be in the medical field somewhere. That's all he was saying.

RICH STEVEN Ally Mayhampton the Executive Director of the Ramsey County Opportunities Industrialization Center a new program for the chronically unemployed. At the Peltier trial yesterday in Fargo, the prosecution announced that it would call to the witness stand Ronald Flowinga, a Milwaukee, Wisconsin police officer. Flowinga was allegedly assaulted by Leonard Peltier in a bar in Milwaukee in November of 1972. That incident lead to a warrant for attempted murder being served on Peltier. After meeting bail Peltier neglected to appear in court on the charge. Peltier is currently on trial for allegedly murdering two FBI agents during a shoot out on south Dakota's Pine Ridge Indian reservation in June of 1975. John Gitsby is covering the trial and has more.

021545

JOHN GITSBY Defense attorney John Lou objected strenuously to the calling of Flowinga saying that Federal rules of evidence bar facts from another case against the accused theme presented during a trial on a separate charge, he said testimony by Levinca would prejudice the jury against Peltier and he said, the facts of the attempted murder case were still in great dispute. US attorney Lynn Crooks said that Flowinga testimony was important because it contributed to the state of mind of Leonard Peltier when he was confounded by two FBI agents at the Jumping Pool residences on Pine Ridge two and a half years later. Crooks said that having an outstanding warrant for attempted murder which show cause why Peltier might respond with deadly force one confronted by the agents. After more argument both sides agreed that Levinca would not be called as a witness but that the relevant facts of the case would be presented to the jury. The discussion had taken place without the jury present in the courtroom. Later in the day, the jury heard testimony that described the death of Joe Stunt the only native American to die during the shoot out. FBI special agent Gerard Warring testified that he and a group of law enforcement people had made their way along a wooded creek bottom too within 100 yards of the jumping pool houses from which firing had been coming. When they approach the residences where in this group was fired on by two Indian males, the group responded by shooting back and warring said "I saw one of the individual disappear behind a building and the other seem to fall to the ground" Warring also testified he heard one of his group say "I think I hit one." Later when the houses were secured Warring said, he found the dead body of the Indian Joe Stunt. He said Stunt's was wearing a fatigue jacket with the letters FBI stenciled over one pocket. During cross examination defense attorney Elliot Jackoff charged agent Warring with falsely rewriting part of his report of the events of the day to conform with the official FBI story of what happened. US Attorney Evan Haultman objected strenuously saying Jackoff had no foundation on which to make the charge at that point Judge Benson excused the jury in order to avoid prejudice. Haultman protested that "The damage has already been done. The jury has been given the impression of FBI wrong doing" Jackoff responded "The damage haven't been done. We will approve to this jury the corruption of the FBI in handling this case". At the Leonard Peltier trial in Fargo I am John Gitsby.

021811

RICH STEVEN And finally this morning, the late Peter Finch who played in Saint Newscaster in the moving network Anne Fay Dunaway who played in the same film won Oscars as the best actor and actress at the 49th annual academy awards in Los Angeles last night. The film Rocky about an unknown fighter who almost won the heavy weight championship won the title for best picture and for best direction. Jason Roberts and Beatrice Strait took the Oscars for supporting performances. There is a winter storm warning in the western and central portions of North Dakota today and over the entire State of North Dakota by tonight, rain changing to snow today will occur in the west and central portions and rain will change to snow in the Eastern portions of North Dakota by tonight. Strong gusty winds from the North west are expected over the state tonight and tomorrow. Rain in the Central and Eastern portions of Minnesota may change to snow by tonight as colder temperatures move across Minnesota, the highest today in Minnesota should be in the mid 40s and the lowest tonight in the lower 30s. The highest tomorrow across the state should range from the 30s in the west to the mid 40s in the East, for the Twin Cities there is a chance of rain showers today, a chance of rain showers will be coming mixed with or changing to snow late tonight and tomorrow. The highest today for the Twin Cities will be in the upper 40s, the lowest tonight in the mid 30s and the highest tomorrow in the mid 40s. We return now to the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul and Garrison Keillor.

021931

GARRISON KEILLOR Thank you, Rich Steven it's 16 minutes now before 9 o'clock. For the lastpart of the last half hour of our program coming to you live from the Landmark Center, the Old Federal Courts Building in downtown St. Paul, room 203, downstairs and in the great center court as you can hear they are hard at work. A project of renovation of the interior of this building known as 75th year, since it was dedicated. A project of renovation which began last March and will be finished we all hope in the summer of 1978. With Betty Musser, the Chairman of the Landmark Center project and Molly Labarge of community programs in the Arts and Sciences, the campus program St. Paul-Ramsey Council of Arts and Sciences. And I thought in this last 15 minutes we could look ahead the two of you, beyond what we see out there in the center courtyard now this handsome old building which is being taken apart on the inside for the installation of heating systems and air-conditioning and wiring and so on to the day when the public, not just a radio show will be invited in here. They will be invited back, it's going to be a big day. Are you going to make a big day of it when it finally opens its doors again

022112

BETTY MUSSER Oh probably a whole year.

GARRISON KEILLOR A whole year. What sorts of things are going to go on in here Molly you are going to be one of the people whothinking of the things to do in all these rooms.

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MOLLY LABARGE Well, I can tell you a few things that encompass would certainly like to have happened when we move back, we were one of the tenants until we moved out about a year ago and are champing it a bit to get back in this lovely space. Some of the things we did do before Garrison we would like to repeat and expand on were, very small public performances of some of the individual artists in the area in the small performing groups who perhaps don't need the Guthrie Theater or would like for their first chance in performing a small intimate and informal casual easy kind of place. The building also offers an amazing number of spaces for rehearsal for people to rehearse their dances, to do their poetry, to rehearse their plays that they're working on or perhaps might want to perform.

I also see a lot of activity in terms of exhibits of works of art done by people who are participating in the Campus program which as you know is the Community Arts Agency of the St. Paul-Ramsey Arts Council and involves many people who aren't otherwise involved in arts activities.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

MOLLY LABARGE So we hope that once the doors of the building open there will be a lot of senior citizens and school children and people from the neighborhoods who will be coming down here as a regular part of their life to see an exhibit of work that they had actually done themselves.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh. I noticed looking at the plans, the architect's plans for the building that there is room which is designated from philosopher residence. I don't know if they're still planning to have one but I'm all for it if you are. That was somebody's bold idea.

BETTY MUSSER Maybe we will set that aside for you.

GARRISON KEILLOR No, no, no, no.

BETTY MUSSER At least from time to time Garrison.

GARRISON KEILLOR No. I do think there isit's a wonderful idea to for artists or poets and dancers and musicians to be in rooms with high ceilings. I think I don't have any proof for it, but I think better work could be done in rooms with high ceilings and with lot of light coming in these big windows such as this one here behind us that in basements under fluorescent lights, don't you

BETTY MUSSER Yes, I do. I think you really touched on the point that is important to me about this week. We speak of this as a work of art serving people and I'm grateful to Molly for coming and emphasizing the people aspect of it which Campus certainly is very concerned with and which we are that taking this beautiful building and using it to serve people who we hope will be stimulated in the way you suggest and remember when the Chamber Orchestra first came in and rehearsed in here, they were so excited by the visual aspect of it that they felt they played better.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER And so we hope that will be the emphasis that it is a treasure from the past but will go on serving the future history of our area.

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FEMALE SPEAKER We had a poetry seminar about a year and a half ago and a visitor Richard Hugo from Montana, fine teacher came to talk to all of us, and he was so taken aback by the space and as you are seeing the high ceilings and the openness and the feeling about it that he has recently written a poem about the Old Federal Courts Building and I will get you a copy Betty

BETTY MUSSER Oh I'd love that.

FEMALE SPEAKER one of those.

GARRISON KEILLOR Well I did a little bit of writing in this building, kind of a writer and residence, I don't know if you knew about that Ms. Musser.

BETTY MUSSER Well, I would love to see, I know you told where you did your writing. I would love to see what you wrote.

GARRISON KEILLOR I was looking around for a little room and Bruce Carlson of the Schubert club offered me this room up here in the corner about two rooms over from here. OneI think was almost two years ago and big empty room nothing but me and a typewriter and a typewriter stand and bigcool in this building you know in the summer time. It's very comfortable without any air-conditioning and I wrote a story about the Prairie queen, this is a great project that failed. But this one I think is going to succeed. It's a

BETTY MUSSER It isthe building is very well built to conserve both heat and cool. I think that people may wonder why we are putting in air-conditioning if we keep talking about how cool it is. Actually it's pretty suffocatingly hot when you face the south in the mid summer and because of the activities that are going on both the new heating system and air-conditioning are essential to bring the building up to code but it will not require as much energy to run that as in some of the less well made buildings.

GARRISON KEILLOR Well speaking of heat, there was another room that I saw in the architecture rendering, floor plan that was simply labeled incubator office. You could shed any light on that and

BETTY MUSSER Malcolm Moose tells about coming down and delivering the baby chicks that came before Easter so that they wouldn't die in the building but that this kind of incubator is notbut this refers to Richard Dober was the planning consultant and plans actually were made for the use of this building before it was transferred which is one of the reasons we were the first in the country to retransfer and Dick Dober's feeling was that while some spaces would be assigned to agencies that we hope to stay for a long time. There always should be enough living, breathing, flexibility in the building. The new groups that might just need a little period of nurture

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER until they could be launched and move on and I think is Molly is in touch with emerging groups like that. He felt that we should always have space he called it incubator space II, to shelter them until they were strong enough to move out.

GARRISON KEILLOR That's a wonderful idea. I thought it must be something good like that.

BETTY MUSSER No, he was great.

GARRISON KEILLOR About seven and a half minutes here before 9 o'clock. You know, we've been sitting here Molly and Betty Musser has been with us since 6 o'clock this morning, sitting over here and doing little stitching and putting in little information on them, and nobody has ever said anything about Betty Musser. We have all been talking about this building, and I know that she has been and the people has been very instrumental in this building and the campaign to preserve it and to put it to good use.

PAMELA MICHEALIS Indeed she has. I would like to say some good words about Betty Musser.

GARRISON KEILLOR I would like you to.

PAMELA MICHEALIS I think it's amazing that due toin large extend to the efforts and dedication and hard work of one person we see this building right now, we hear the work being going on into our very feet and many of us are able now to look forward to returning to this building and carrying out a lot of activities. It wouldn't be possible without the building, without its atmosphere. There are a lot of reason for saving it and I know that and renovating it that some of your other guests have spoken to that point but I think many times it's because of one persons drive and energy that these things have to take place. You have to become somewhat of a messiah I couldn't say a fanatic but Betty Musser is not a fanatic.

LAUGHTER

PAMELA MICHEALIS But someone who really believes truly in a cause and is willing to really go out and work for it and not just talk about it and write papers and have studies for 20 years and not end up with something tangible.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

PAMELA MICHEALIS I think that this phrase that people plays I have heard Betty use it many times if something is very important for everyone to remember, and it would be a great disservice to those who built the building and those who thought to save it if it were to turn into merely an office building.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

PAMELA MICHEALIS That main floor has got to be a place where everyone can come and feel comfortable and have things to do and have things that interest them and feel that it really belongs to them and they can come to this building as a center in the city, a center for everyone.

GARRISON KEILLOR Uh-huh.

BETTY MUSSER May I say something

GARRISON KEILLOR Well I am not

BETTY MUSSER Thank you very much. But I would like to remind you that Pamela Michealis has been here since 5 o'clock this morning and is a very important active person in making the fun drive go in order that the work can continue. So I would like to thank her for being here.

GARRISON KEILLOR I do want to mention before we leave that much of the information that we mentioned in last, almost three hours comes from a marvelous book called 'A Landmark Reclaimed' which has just come out published by Minnesota Landmarks, the non-profit corporation which is re-doing this building. It's a book by Dr. Eileen Michels, all about the Federal Building, which became the Old Federal Courts Building when the courts move out and which is now the Landmark Center. It is wonderfully illustrated with architecture renderings and many photographs. It's an interesting book not only about the building but about the lives of some of the people who have passed through this building. A 112 pages, and it is available to you either through bookstores or you can send for it directly at Minnesota Landmarks, American Bank Skyways, St. Paul, Minnesota 55101. The price is $11 and the proceeds

FEMALE SPEAKER The restoration of the building.

GARRISON KEILLOR go for the restoration of the building $11. Minnesota Landmarks, American Bank Skyways, St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 and very seldom have I done a commercial that I meant as much as that. It's a wonderful book. It's a wonderful book. I should invite people to what

FEMALE SPEAKER Invite people to come into the Skyway center.

GARRISON KEILLOR All right, Minnesota Landmarks has an office up in the American Bank Skyway with photographs and some furniture and scale models on display and if you should be in the area, stop in and see them. Do not stop in at the Old Federal Courts Building or Landmark Center because they are busy working on it but it will be open we all hope in the summer of 1978. Anything you want to add before we leave

FEMALE SPEAKER Yes, Thank you.

GARRISON KEILLOR Well I thank you Molly.

MOLLY LABARGE Yes thank you Garrison.

GARRISON KEILLOR Molly Labarge from Campus. Betty Musser from

BETTY MUSSER Thank you very much and do consider that philosopher in resident space.

GARRISON KEILLOR Well I am not sure, maybe in my old age.

BETTY MUSSER I think it will be for a tenured philosophers probably coming in and out. We hope to be one of them.

GARRISON KEILLOR I want to thank Virginia Koonz for the Ramsey County historical society, Wayne Winsor, Dick Dobervic who are with us earlier, Jamespardon me, Harland with the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra, Bruce Carlson of the Schubert Club who joined us earlier.

Technical direction by Richard Nelson and Tom Keith, with George Fischer and Lynne Cruise. And thank you all and we'll see you again tomorrow morning between 0600 and 0900. You have been listening to 'A Prairie Home Morning Show' coming to you live from the Old Federal Courts Building, the Landmark Center in downtown St. Paul.

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