At recent conference on Intermediate Technology, sponsored by the Future Department of the Science Museum of Minnesota and the Minnesota Humanities Commission, British economist Dr. E.F. Schumacher gave a speech titled “Economics for a Changing World.” Schumacher is author of the book "Small is Beautiful: Economics As If People Mattered."
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Dr. Schumacher, a British Economist is an internationally known as the originator and practitioner of the concept of intermediate or appropriate technology. Many of us are not aware of this concept because of doctor Schumacher's increasingly influential book small is beautiful economics as if people matter. Since its publication in 1973 small is beautiful and sold more than 300,000 copies in the US edition and more than 2 million copies and other editions around the world. Well, I could take a long time spelling out the many qualifications of dr. Schumacher. I think it is better to hear more from him than about him. Simply put he has had Decades of experience both on a national International level as an economist. He has taught and lectured around the world. He has worked with both developed and developing countries. He has been repeatedly honored for his efforts. As advisor to more than 30 developing nations, he has become known around the world as a leading expert and intermediate Technologies, which I know which are more productive than traditional methods and Agriculture and industry but less complex resource to pleading and capital costly then Western high-technologies Petroleum shortage in 1973, which he ends in L A Warren of as early as 1958 many liters and the general public and industrialized nations have become aware of the possibilities for the future their own countries represented by his word. This evening. I'm pleased to present for the first of three lectures Dr. E F Schumacher speaking on economics for a changing world. ladies and gentlemen Let me say first how happy I am to be here. I have made it a habit in my life to come to Minnesota every. 44 years, so my my last visit was in 1933. And I hope this won't be the last. weather changing world Let's just look at that. Some of the changes that have been going on. Up to now I'm potentially. In a very short periods and say the last hundred years. Very few people seem to be able to maintain and that Consciousness. How recent everything is. infection probably they had never thought about it at all the things. That we now take for granted as the main. Socialist economic life seems like steal electricity cement. Had no existence was talking about a hundred years ago. Everything we see around us are creations of the last century and this. Really that's talking about swinging but actually in the last 30 years. since World War II thinking 50 years back the middle twenties quite a few people in this room who can do that quite easily as I can. It just was. Just bring back to mind. The package has oil consumption 50 years ago. And after 50 years is nothing. Well oil consumption. Was about 5% of what it is now. And it was primarily United States phenomenon because 70% of all the oil was produced and 66% consumed in the United States. Today if you take all ocean-going transport and divided into 2, lb of oil on the one hand and everything else on the other hand. In terms of 10 miles the oil is twice as much as everything else put together. 50 years ago the ocean-going transport of oil was considerably less than the spillage now. So an entirely different thing has been reached even 25 years ago. the amount of international trade and that the essential Commodities energy Fossil fuels was quite minoot contact with now. and this Dunkin Donuts a monstrous monstrous dependence of all the countries that have been looking upon themselves as so rich and so powerful. the Monstrous depends of these countries on small group the OPEC countries Who is names with known as if it was 20 years ago, except of course to geographers? This is only risen in the last 20 years. But I'm trying to say is. we have to understand the abnormality of that which we Take us home. and of course the oil situation demonstrates subject that's a until fairly recently, even the distinction between renewable and nonrenewable. Raw materials is not made. We're are in a kind of throne. That's why I say The Economist did cave called scales. because when some of us it but look here. We are exploiting a non-renewable resource as saturated. Be kind even look 30 40 50 years into the future anymore. I'll be back even phrases like oh, don't worry. The free enterprise system broke up with it. Even today people saying that is no real fuel problem energy problem the price mechanism. We'll deal with it. Well, it would be highly desirable to make the use of this vocabulary a punishable offense. Lunch with at least call a spade a spade is not the price mechanism. The suggestion is. Oh, we're just let the price is rice. Which means? the Moundsville decline Primarily, who's the Mount Vermont from the pool? So it would be still better to say no, there's no fuel problem because the poor would have to learn to do without shielded energy. The price mechanism will deal with it. So it is also salt that is so normal to use these fantastic amounts of energy. that modern Societies in particular of consoling this Society are using so that if these are people who have exportable oil if they don't behave rather than with him. I have Savannah has to use Allsup's of a means of foreign policy to make them tow the line. All this means that those who think so haven't understood anything. It took the OPEC countries a long time to understand the truth of the situation. They formed themselves into OPEC in 1960 because the oil companies budgets and so on sofa must have been downstairs. It took them 10 years to understand the situation. And then they sent around the general secretary a highly intelligent. Khe any spelling to go to the main importing countries and plead for good the sex mitigate your requirements the whole thing is a sell-out if it goes unless it is going then in 20 or 25 years. They'll be nothing left. Now you have all the signs in the world. Maybe maybe you can solve your problem is us the only country in 20-25 minutes back to sand and camels. We're not having it. nobody listened So that is the real situation and therefore one can look upon the 6th of October 1973. the Jewish Day of atonement the outbreak of yet another Arab Israeli War when then the additives used oil as a political weapon bum can consider this. The Turning Point the end of a neuron. And suddenly it became apparent. I'll just become the parent to everybody. That's how these responses are limited. It's strange that it's so difficult to understand. It's probably so difficult because the quantities are so Lounge that the human mind mind can't grasp it anymore back from Alaska and say that any amount of how much millions of millions of times there's a drop in the bucket how many thousands of Millions? You see just a hell of a lot. That's all I know. And then yes, well, there are various estimates. The minimum estimate is 3 million tons of oil in Alaska. Well, I Maxim estimates maybe five thousand million tons. Unbelievable. And in order to carry on as we did up to 1973 and still have some of those left in 1990. It would have to find to Alaska every year. speaking on the worlds game now that is the situation many other examples going to be given and you're up. Most of Agriculture has made itself depending on phosphate. Impulses from Morocco, where are the prices of phosphates has risen just the same as the prices of oil because the Moroccans have realized it's going in 20 years. It'll all be gone. So going to have to slow it down. Etc, etc. So much about them. The past as far as supplies are concerned. What the heck is also being other developments which we must now take note off. surely if we If we take Trail space away from the problem and look at it with fresh eyes. It's very strange. What has happened? to the pattern of human settlement I'm not just talking about urbanization, but the pattern of organization. Namely that while one might have thought was an increase in world population. The population will distribute itself more evenly over the face of the Earth. The exact opposite is taking place. estranged polarizacion 15 million foreign migrant workers moving into Western Europe the continent not from overpopulated into underpopulated a spot on the country from space relative especially populated areas in places with the densest population. And in all countries including this country that is this polarizacion. The Fringe planners are worried and say if things go on that will not be nothing left except Paris surrounded by nothing surrounded by desert. In Britain, which I'll be up front of you looks like a tightly-packed little island more than half. The surface area is the clouds underpopulated by government and government have been trying for years and years to pursue its businesses to go there in the Southeast mad congestion. This country you have three enormous connotations and one can say that 92% of the population live in Big Town cities, which between them, 2% of the surface area of the United States. So dad that is mad congestion. And the rest 98% of the area. Is inhibited inhabited by 8% of the population? many strange and of course when you look at this third world, you'll find the same baneful. Tendency Mass migration into cities where there are no jobs. mass unemployment And always the imminent danger of mass hunger. That's another phenomenon. Which sign indicates that the last really 5200 years. In a strange way mankind has become Footloose. enter and goes All in One Direction. Here again, we must understand why but it will come to that. Surgery, I would like to mention. I indicated it already when I said that the total transport of oil 50 years ago was only a small fraction of what that spinach is. Now. We are really getting into trouble by his mother nature. Who is telling us now? Just hold it a bit. I can take by the lump, but I can't take what you do now. And potentially weather all these Mass concentrations of Industry of population of red shoes at rubbish Center song. So here again. Pacing the changing World. These changes have to be understood by how And falsely I would mention. an interesting facts and they believe that the dispensation of the last 200 years since the Industrial Revolution namely that we could let our Engineers design process of production. Irrespective of what these processes we're doing to that the psyche of the worker. and that face also is drawing to a close. I know that. My country United Kingdom has today have any put you cannot make press. This is due to the fact that the performance economic performance is is not what I was standing. And this is due to the fact that people will no longer be pushed around. and of course Britain is particularly exposed to this because we don't have Any migrant workers have on the continent? And even the most recent immigrants have been taking a totally absorbed into the trade unions and get as much protection as anyone else. If you go to some of the most famous factories. on the continent as I have. The most unlike you to find a single German on this empty belt that just will not do it, but they have the migrant workers. Does an Ava this phase to be temporarily prolong? in Sweden where that don't have weather has migrant workers about these migrant workers on the visions and games until And so Volvo has found it is impossible to go on assembly belts. And I had to think of something you. Strange to say the whole the automobile industry has has gone to the Volvo to have a look at it to do something new but it is bound to come it must come. All all the industrial system will seem to be paralyzed by a Revolt of human nature against the treatment of Labor simply as a means of production. Of course. We get some. It's not so bad. And that if you were told this by people who never done it themselves. I have for myself into labor after a few years even I haven't experienced what it really means. For two reasons. I didn't explain the stress. I might have found a bro. Effexor allegra and secondly, I always knew and could see the the light at the end of the tunnel. If I had known that I most likely would stay there for all my life. When I started to think what would have become of me suddenly not nothing nothing very peaceful. Exactly. Nothing very cooperative. So this is the first point where? That is a kind of Awakening now, which means that we have to rethink our production processes, which is quite a big job and to humanize them. We are in much the same phases. When the evolution of slavery Happened, of course. Lots of people said I was a total collapse and you can't do it until I actually like being slaves and etc, etc. Enter. And even after they were slaves and look at Britain now that is no longer prepared to be pushed around. So he's destroying the prosperity of the country all that. Yes all the see the human being as not being created in order to be a gap filler in the production process. That's in order to experience the joy of work. Because the joy of work is the joy of life. It is that and if the joy of work is gone, nothing can compensate for it. So I mentioned these 4 things energy and other supplies. And then this polarization in the pattern of settlement then I only touch the phone. The whole ecological situation. And falsely the sociological situation and all these I suggest have something to do with our production processes. Let's take what I'm saying, Wichita. I have experienced so much on this trip. Everywhere, the complaint of life is draining out of the small towns. outlying provinces states of the United States feel that they are becoming colonies the same applies to provinces in Canada. I say we are becoming a province of the big conurbation. No, sorry, we're becoming a colony of the big connovation. Why a colony well because all the decisions that really matter we can take that take me far away. And we are molested used to monoculture all the things we used to make ourselves. I know coming and cellophane packages from Toronto to Chicago. And what does that mean? It means that life becomes intolerably down. monoculture I didn't mean to sound no jobs. And it means that that the best and the brightest believe. And show the whole Community gets onto and downward spiral. And of course great emptiness is created on the one hand and vast congestion on the other. Why does this happen? Nohea, I suggest. It happens because we have been what is Sandra's about technology? We have just let it rip. And it has ripped out of sight as a driver. It has become so big so complex. And so costly. intensive capital And in addition so violent. That's it just doesn't fit into. I got other places by the main conurbations. You couldn't raise the money in other places. You couldn't find a specialist in other places. You wouldn't have what we call the infrastructure and other places. So, I don't know if it's where the mostest already exists. So this technological development has What Altima has turned out to be a law of equilibrium equilibrium by natural forces? I wish the economist also fund. It has become a law of disequilibrium. Once the process is going it exacerbates everything all the time. Let us go through these four criteria, which I suggest and stopped was a false name Lee. a violin technology But here again, I invite you to take 12 pieces away from the situation and look at it as if you are coming from another star. And then you will be astonished to hear to be informed that even in this Society alone. We probably have more scientists and technologists technologist alive today than all previous history taken together. and being innocent coming from another star you might then ask for Android and the answer will come back the old solving problems. And then you might get to the real shocking saying that sounds running out of problems. Don't rush. I don't know no better. end and this was a stoner she wouldn't it. seven of us happening How can how could our ancestors get along with so few technologists and social problems? And we have so many so many. And then the answer will be yes because you were human beings have developed a very strange propensity to violence. What do you mean violin? Oh and sisters in mitson for instance at the principal premium Nordstrom at first of all, you don't do any harm and then stop. Don't have that principle today. In agriculture real good husbandry in a relationship extremely generous. They don't have that attitude today. No, we banging we say nature is incompetent. We are competent. We don't waste no time waiting for solar energy. We are get to the oil and natural gas work it into chemicals. This is a violent Approach To Nature. Of course, we that Mesmerize ourselves and say it can't be done in any other way. I will show my accounts. I'm the president of the soil Association in Brick. We've been working on this for 30 years. I know all the organic farmers. You're doing extremely well. but it doesn't fit into this mentality of a We can do everything we don't have to wait for nature. I kind of hubris and so far. For the last 25 or 27 years we have been. Call Tim McIntosh three people. I never minded that very much too. Pretty good definition of of life. In any case. Now they're coming. Now they say that's that that filter. The prices are going through the roof. They say is it really possible. Now even academic people are coming. And even the Agricultural Extension services are coming. I want to learn play one of violence. I've got nothing degree of violence. We are now evidently as societies prepare to apply to SoCal solution of our fuel problems and energy problems. But here again, let's not get into any details. In order to be able to go on building rooms like this one. We're all natural sunlight. And natural ant is carefully excluded so that we have a chance of utilizing the maximum of artificial light and energy. Does that kind of thing? We are prepared to stop processes of such violence that the mind boggles and fission nuclear fission to produce plutonium. But I mean, it's our choice. Plutonium is a substance of such ghastliness. That you can be sure the good Lord that I made it. jeans with a new number. Then he had said when he had produced uranium. Which is also pretty ghastly but, quite mild compared to this, but don't tell me away in some remote places. We have been busy now with Geiger counters and son to pick it up and bring it into the main centers of human population. That's a ton of Highly radioactive and turn it into plutonium. No sew tonium is a substance of Life of danger to all life. So all the time. Enzo please don't quibble with me I'm saying no. No, you're mistaking. It's only for three million years. Even the half-life of plutonium the time it takes until its radioactivity declines to half of what it is now is 24400 years old. All all all known history. enza Mitchell's nevermind it's going to cause problems but we have problem solvers. And there's nothing to worry about. Of course if you point out to them. the den occasion the dance civil disturbances Then you get some other kinds of snakes. It's a case of classic case of the blind leading the blind. Thought maybe the blind will open now. It's one day anyway what I mean? technological development Which produces violence Technologies which then cause any number of additional problems? And of course employment for problem solvers? The intermediate technology approaches the opposite of this we say it's second class people who rely on problem solving. The first class people don't have the problems. They arrange them offense in such a way that the problem isn't there. That's what I call the negative negative series of problems nothing. It's like the negative series of transport. Nobody wants transport you want to accessibility if you can arrange matters in such a way that we don't need so much transfer then we are intelligent, but they all know we can over compensate the bad Pentatonix. We developed by long-distance transport. This is a sign of stupidity. So that was my phone sponge about technological development. That's just look at the other three. To Biggs too complex and to Capital costly. I don't have to illustrate it. You can also read this in your own imagination and what you know. These days very often. You hear that some big big company comes. To set up a new Factory perhaps in Minnesota and spending a hundred million dollars. And I will be on the charts. And then you throw your hands in the air with the lights that I will be Hunter jobs. But it's quite clear that that's right at that Capital costing us that can never be enough jobs for all the people who need jobs. Dancing has overshot the mark all together. I haven't attended you of an incident not so long ago when I visited one of the best and technological development organizations in Britain and Manchester weather developing textile machinery, and it's unbelievable what they can do. is very very impressive very great speed all sorts of totally unnecessary patterns can be done computer controls in dream of and then I asked what does this machine cost over this machine cost about a hundred thousand pounds. And finally, I couldn't stand it any longer and I said to the director it seems to me you can do everything now. I was quite pleased about that and said yes. If you can do everything. You said are you against progress? And so well what's wrong then? I'm surrounded by intelligent people and I can still find all sorts of Frozen improvements speeding up embellishments even more complex patterns. And so what's wrong with it? I said to buy this machine cost a hundred thousand pounds now, but very few people can afford by the time they've gone much further to cost $150,000 even fewer people then can make textiles. Don't you see that you are fostering a technological development which hands all production over two people already rich and Powerful to the to the multinational corporation. Little Tom Dick and Harry Connick set himself up. He hasn't got a hundred and fifty thousand pounds just to get these machines. That he understood this. enter I can't read about it you said but the truth is I constantly if I go to the top Boston see I'd like to stop now able to say it has been looking a bit jaded to take stream today. Always say thank you for giving me notice so early I have already a success. where that is this this technical progress is seen by most people as something wonderful. But only as long as they don't consider the sociological consequences of it. To the people who are already rich and very powerful the same people of progress and at the same time shake that fish at the multinational corporations and say we must not allow them to rule the world. About the technologic the political relevance of technological development. These are these three factors taken together too big to complexion to Capital cost me these three are principles of exclusion and that is accounts for the fact that we are with more and more progress. Listen less able to solve the problems of poverty. I don't want to. Say anything that might displease but I supposed to. You do realize. Mother shock to the rest of the world it is that she that here that is a society which has twice the income per head. of Western Europe and still has Tennyson tens of millions of utterly poverty-stricken people infect so degraded so much left out. Nobody quite knows how to every integrate them into society. So evidently this kind of Technological development doesn't do the job. Well, I would just add in parenthesis that people seem to have understood that sufficiently at least now to make an effort and Congress has given money to set up the national Center for appropriate technology. Which the normal development of society doesn't seem to be able to accomplish? in general I was driven to the conclusion that that is a what island called The Law of the disappearing middle in technological development. It's not a highly academic expression. But you know, it's it's memorable. It says there's a very simple technology. Then they come in a relationship. That's College stage 2. Then they're coming further Innovation stage 3 and then something happened stage 2 disappears. It's hardly noticeable because 1 2 3 are so close together. But now I mention zooms. especially disappear When some 35 or so years ago, I was found Libra. We had very good farming equipment which was a mother's cost. I thought a 300-acre farm couldn't have been more than $5,000 None of this equipment is available today. It's just not made anymore. It's disappeared. And has been replaced. Buy acceptance so loud so complex so capsule costly. It would cost you $150,000 instead of five that infect you got to be rich. No, as long as we can't offer technologies that this which the poor can receive that can hold. intermedia Technologies As long as we offer the latest and the best then in the developing countries only the richest can take it is a process of collecting money from the poor people in the rich countries to give it to the rich people in the pool countries. And that is not LOL that is simply due to the fact that no one but the rich can receive it. Then it's a peasant count. He can't deal with it was a tomato reaping machine that cost $130,000 in the United States. So what is most needed? is there Not really a new economics. Call changing well, they call some. What's become of Economics that ass off at you have to Beto? What's a new technology? to to fill this middle that has disappeared. When I say to fill them and I don't mean I'm standing here is a Polish the super duper technology. American 7% It has some cases some advantages Stitzer. But that's not the point. I'm making. That Gap has to be filled. So that those who aren't at the super duper level. And then not frozen at the minimum level weather Frozen now. That there is something between the hole and the combine harvester. I want something between making Bricks by hand and 3 million bricks a week brickworks. No, and this relates to the whole polarization between rich and poor but it also relates to the polarization between empty spaces and and overcrowded over congested connotations. Does middle range technology which kind of cost and should be developed at the height of mother knowledge? It's actually. Doesn't take more than a sed rate engineer to make a complex machine even more complicated but it takes a touch of Genius to risk recapture some basic Simplicity things. That middle range technology is also highly relevant for the less-populated regions of the wealthy countries. For bringing life back into into towns that have been dying away. I'll have to save up something for tomorrow. And so I'm now is drawing to a close. They run Dynamic elements. Mankind processes is infected intelligence as then it crystallizes out in research and development. I think I hope that there will be a broadly-based popular movement. That becomes very very critical of the misuse of this best of all human and diamonds. I mean best in the world listens. I would just give you an example of what I mean, and I talked about the abuse. To come see this address is current. at this distance It shows a family of father mother and two little children and the dog are absolutely Horace truck. And is headed why horror movies are more horrible on the quintrix to color picture tube. It's issued by a fine sounding company called Panasonic who describe themselves as just slightly ahead of our time. No. immediately underneath the picture There's some science. Play some extremely interesting in comprehensible drawings and extra free Focus lens for sharpness plus an inline tube for brightness and contrast excetra blood is blood your fangs are Sean foreclosure Cruella you love it. quintrix to buy Panasonic every monster movie you see No. That's how he was all intelligence. notes not to create means by which we can really effectively fight party whether at home or overseas. That hasn't got that drive behind it. Is this so? A different spin it all together. A news release by an organization who call themselves mothers Lee America's most respected technological market research organization. End tables that tell you about the future of the USB King industry know this interest me very much. Because bridge I was brought out of app to to consider this the staff of life. Well, the US banking industry revolutionizing its processes. He's automation is most likely solution for its progress and prosperity the overall move will be towards shoe bakery plant with large are processing facilities distribution ranging up to 500 miles from base at the marked increase in Bakery personnel. They find a Triton told her about that. For instance the present packing Machinery running at the rate of $60 per minute things together in with lines of production, which produce Brett at the rate of $240 per minute and saw this process has to be now really speed it up and answer. Know anyone who is follow? It's what I've been trying to say. You can see that this development. Where to go on killing the bakeries in the small places will go on committing Society to ever more fuel use forever more transport. Hence, the importance of the negative cos transfer. Instead of having a baker nearby and then actually getting bread. we we have to we have to get it out of machines that produce whatever the figure was $240 per minute. Of course, you can do that only if any trace of living substance has previously been eliminated. Because if it has to travel solo on the varying conditions, then you can't afford to have the cussedness of life in Indian States. This is the the disrespect of technological development. The latest red was thank you for your attention II fountain for tomorrow. Thank you, dr. Schumacher. if there are questions accumulated that someone wants to address, dr. Schumacher wife floor is open for Dr. Schumacher and gray arrested in organic agriculture in are you going to be here in this country? Is that American? starvation of 112th world the question apparently is to be addressed to the organic or chemical farming trade-offs If I may say so it's not the right question. Because implied in the question is that the fossil fuels for a long time country continuation of chemical farming available? But I'm bound to tell you that. People much more expert than I am like the principle of the most renowned agricultural College in Britain. The Royal agricultural college has been telling a whole crowd of 20 year olds who are starting foaming. By the time you're 50, you won't be able to use these messages anymore. Because resources won't be there. It was not reported in the paper about these young people search. Because it's after a little bit of a Dusty message. but now it's the second implication of this question is wouldn't the world. Nobody does description have to be raised. As a result of a universal brainwashing that's been going on. Instead of saying well, we have heard that it is possible. It is simply assumed that it is not possible. But I mean I can take you I think she's asked the question with his tongue in his cheek. I could take you to the organic farmers. They're getting a video of eels. I can take you to the literature value, not has produced the evidence. We have produced it in England. It's available from Switzerland from Germany. So this is one of the strange things that the motor mentality doesn't like answers that are basically simple And if you talk to a highly trained person. Who has spent years and years learning about all these chemicals and all these analyses. Actually you can do it by organic messes. He gets very very angry. Because I feel that you don't have to do all this study. So there is absolutely no doubt. They said that the address Also Rises. Failure to distinguish between productivity per acre and productivity per person. Nova skin because of course, I don't have to work to be done on the land is being transferred to the few remaining people on the land have a fantastic productivity as much my phone to look at the productivity Baker and they're all over the place down to a certain minimum limits the smaller the high of the productivity per acre. So if you really want food have smaller firms smaller units more people making a living off the land. And with the most advanced biological message to living can be a very excellent living infect on so little and the mind boggles. By The Pledge to the French intensive by the diet Dynamic message supplied in Northern California by the name of so, let's just hang on to one thing. even if all that pumps We're not so it's not a voluntary matter that we have to go from chemicals to biological message. It's forced upon us but by the universe by the universe How do you see they be connected to the development of the specifically terms of intermediate technology developed countries is seen by their own ranch population can be identified related to that question to how you identify him with those either media technology are what extent are intermediate Technology Group semester go out the country is being established now. Well, let me see those that intermediate technology relates to this Gap the lack of options either you have very primitive technology. All you must be rich to have the latest and there's a gap having said that you're finding any more closely. How do you identify the gap? just by looking and bring it to a test here is a community they say we can I am taking an extra case. We have a lot of poultry slaughtering the birds and there's a lot of awful that's being thrown away. Isn't there a way of making fertilizer organic fertilizer out of this? and then they say the plants that we are looking Recons get because only very large and very costly equipment exist for this particular purpose and if it isn't due to the design work and you design it and then then you have to fill this Gap or people who have written to us. And since we are Fruit Growers Bundchen, we really want to make gems and fruit juices, but we have no bottles and jam jars. The nearest big glass planter so far away then becomes becomes rely on that supplies. Can you have a mini plan so that we can make glass on the spot? And then you find the world doesn't reduce the mini plant. It just doesn't exist anymore. And so you get busy and designed the mini plant and then suddenly humble people can make a living. Hope you couldn't make a living. I said something. Yes groups groups are springing up in all these countries one after the other. This is infect a big part of our activity to say we can't give you health from London to 2 million Villages. You must get the whole thing organized and knowledge Center. We have two written questions here and then this gentleman and that's all we're going to do for the for this evening as you know that cuz you're not going to be here again tomorrow and he's already put in a pretty extensive day. What what technologies can't be handled by intermediate methods? This doesn't that I'm sorry. This doesn't really make sense because Technology is the method of doing things. Perhaps what is meant is what objectives cannot be reached by something that could be called intermediate technology. Well, yes, of course moon landing Swensons. all sorts of extravagances But that is not of great importance to the pool. all Jersey communities that are declining The basic human requirements they can all be taken care of by by Andy simple Technologies and if this is not so at present. Mudville Tony about is a work program to find these Technologies and not to prejudge it by saying is of course in chemical things. You can't have small scale. Who knows who who who has tried it? We have tried it. And of course you can have it smells good. I'll give you an example of a you run into great difficulties. One of the basic gym requirements is always building material and we found some it's a very useful building with you, but cement works of normally very large. Half a billion or million times capacity is very heavy transport cost to make sense in that sense interested in mini cement works. That's it. Since it is not fully understood what goes on inside the result in the production of Portland cement. You can't design a satisfactory mini mini cement work. So we have handed us over to Cambridge University that starting it but meanwhile, we suddenly remembered the doctor of cement as I said initially that didn't actually didn't exist a hundred years ago. in such mynute quantities parking cement still standing without Portland cement So what's Samantha's materials? Exist all can be recaptured. They have been obviously bypass by the moral development in forgotten and then you find the materials can be produced on a small scale and infect can be produced at temperatures that are less than half. Those are required for Portland cement and work on phones. So wherever there is something worth doing look for Solutions look for them whether you find them all notes that will be found out after looks intensively.