The commission is a coalition of some twenty Minnesota organizations that put together an independent hearing panel to investigate allegations of FBI of uses in Minnesota and The Dakotas the area that comes under the jurisdiction of the Minneapolis FBI office throughout the program. You will hear the questions and comments of panel members the hearings focused on alleged abuses on Native American reservations in South Dakota, and the whole day was devoted to incidents surrounding the 1975 shootout on the Pine Ridge reservation that resulted in the deaths of two FBI agents and one Indian Joseph stunts. No one has yet been charged with stunts of death for Indians have been charged in the death of the FBI agents one was released for lack of evidence to men Dino Butler and Bob rabetao were acquitted on a peel after a trial in Cedar Rapids Iowa last summer and one man Leonard Peltier faces trial in Fargo North Dakota this month today our program begins with the testimony of Norman Brown a 16 year old Indian youth who claims heCoerced into testifying against Butler and Robin Doll Brown now lives in self-imposed Exile and Canada. He would be forced to testify against Peltier and also in fear for his life Brown describes his recollection of June 26th, 1975 the day of the shootout at Pine Ridge reservation that will Nation. Abdul Peter water Clan and I was used as a prosecution witness against my two brothers, Cedar Rapids, Iowa. I was 15 years old when they came to me last year. father of June 26th incident in Pine Ridge Well it all started when morning. Me and my brother Justus who are eating getting ready to eat. and our sisters Jamaican food for us Galveston weird some shooting breaking out Celine Zhu ran up to this one here. She was going on. and the first thought that came to our minds was our women and our children this first thought that came into our minds. Who ran back up? Do you know we're up there? What time we got up there? Just Dino told sisters do Look for a way out. and they went in. Why were there for a while we're all surrounded? Can you could see FBI agents all over the place just like Vietnam? And we're trapped there and we thought that we all want going to make it. Who were there for a while? Two more started coming in with your planes and stuff like that. and there's some coming from the other side of our camp. and before before before without the other side of the camp saw and Angie with their kids who are running it running out with them. so Soju came up to me. Used it this a time to be a good warrior set the time to be a man. So you could you go down there to the other side of the camp and wait for them people to come in. She's going to come in here cuz you're going to be you're going to kill you. He said that's what they're going to do to you. So you told me. So I went down there waiting there for a while. Indy shooting stop well, I was down just for the came down to me and he told me that do stunts was killed. So we got all brothers and sisters together. And new logging Genie and then came back and told us that place was around and they couldn't find a way out. So we got together. And we started praying. reformed ourselves into a circle and as we were praying so this Eagle come down. To feel strong didn't we knew that everything be alright. together way out and I don't know. We just got out of there running up this hill. After that, we're running for 4 days 4 nights. And they were brothers. That we suffered there. and we just kept on walking just walking and praying and You know just taking two women there. And while we were running up the hill. Can you tease these rounds go by your head still really whistling? and we scary so we got her. We got a place up on this hill and we stayed. And you let the women run up bring up more. Two were there and two Carlos came to world word that that he'll rat. And later found out that they were SWAT massage Brown went on to describe the day in September of 1975 when FBI agents came on to the rosebud reservation to arrest several Native American staying there including Butler and brown himself Brown says that the FBI came onto the reservation at 5 in the morning rousing people out of their homes before they had time to dress and everything. And he brought Leonard Crow dog out. And you have nothing on it wouldn't let him put on his clothes. And tried to give him his pipe with you and he had to go through his bag saying don't do my begun there. So it tied meeting my brother brothers to tree. Plastic cuffs like this run at 3 or Cinder a couple hours. Still here and choppers go by and if you are calling us all kinds of names. When do now we just standing there? So right after that went home. And I was staying home there for a while. Indus travel policemen came over to my sister's house and I was ready to run out the back. And my mom didn't know about that the time my family didn't know about it. And my mom went out there. She was there the time talked. I know what they talked about. My mom told me to come with her. So I thought my brother's you know, I got caught or something. to route to this one trailer me and my mom wouldn't dare. And as we went there to be a police when they grabbed me threw me against the wall. So what you need then I say I want my lawyer. So when I went to for I came back home, I went to Rapid City. Then I met a lawyer Bernie with Jack Schwartz and gave me a piece of paper that I that paper it said. I wasn't supposed to talk to you if Bia Bia Tribal Police or anybody like that. So I gave that piece of paper at to mazagan talk. I tried to get out but they won't let me out. Then for FBI agents come walking in. 2 minute sit down and shut down my mother set down beside me. 2D City we know you were at the time. I told him I ain't see nothing. I hear nothing. You suck. Can I give you that paper? And I said there's my lawyer. Just let me call him. So no we can't do that. Then tell him that I had a lawyer they wouldn't listen to me. Star ask me questions. I told her I didn't know. so finally he said he's alright Brown. He's a he's have to get down on you. So I just sit I want my lawyer. To send you a couple hours or trying to question me. Then Burger Bar agent name of Charles Victor. He told me. Because you know you don't put your face in there. See ya as you're facing. 2 counts of first-degree murder and I want my lawyer told him cuz you're not getting a lawyer. To just sit there and he told me we're going to Hollywood right now. My mom should know what the hell is going on. We tried to explain to my mom what happened. Even told my mom that I had they had one of the guns I used to sit with that gun kill. The FBI agents want to do. Mom started crying and everything. And my mom said something you said. So what are you do? And you said the cute one of the agents City. I killed one of the one of those two FBI agents started crying when the FBI agent says shut up. I say you should have said you don't talk to my mom like that. And do you still my mom to shut up when I sit? Don't you have any respect at all, you know? And you keep telling me this and we're going to Hollywood right now. My mom is crying and you can't tell me to talk and I told her no. I keep saying no for a while. Didn't decide it will all the way right now to go out there and Kristen to handcuff me. 12 standing there. And you said we can do everything in our power that you wrote To Hell lease it. Then didn't say nothing. I just I just kept telling her what my lawyer. Then you go somewhere you protecting these cold-blooded Killers. He said these guys murdered to my friends. Damn said it's the way the ball bounces and you got pissed. Denise said it's your duty as an American citizen to do this to talk that I told him. So now I'm a citizen of this country hear America. to Moses citizen of the Navajo Nation that the Western hemisphere in the mother earth. That's what I told. and did you started laughing? And I had some Peoria with me that night. And you're just making fun of you, but my religion stuff. They can't tell me that do you know and Bob and Leonard send those guys are killers before you protecting them? Sounded my brothers, and I ain't your nothing. I ain't seen nothing. They told me that. They're going to put me away put me away for a long time. And you told my mom that she's never see me again. Is never see my family? I've never walked the Earth again. It's what they told my mom. So my mom was crying. And I know what to do there. cuz she guza She was so no. I don't want you. Cuz I don't want you to put in jail cuz tell them I kept saying no. And the kids seem Leonard Peltier to become seen him. And do you know that they kill the lawyers at the lawyers the agents? You keep saying where you protecting these cold-blooded Killers. You just tell me. Signed see nothing hear nothing. Who's like that for a while threatening me? Keep saying we will put you away and you're going to lose. Call me names. And we were there for another 15 minutes Friday. I talk started talkin. Then they left right about 6 hours and you told me you going to see me tomorrow. She went home. I was ready to take off. My mom won't let me my brothers wouldn't. cuz they want me to go to jail so they said and when I was in Rapid City. Banana Meagher and she got released I saw her in Rapid City. and I was there when legal worker interview der in right after the interview and you made tueller told me that Debbie I said you going to kill her. choose choose She said they're going to kill me. He's ignoring. Can you go through direct me? So I believed her. That's what I thought at the time. They came. I thought they were going to kill me. They told me that I never walked the Earth again. Serratus that they kept coming over and questioned me and everything. And the third one of my cousins one of my brother's up to a chair for hours. And they made him talk. I don't know how and he told me that they give me new name new life, you know told me that I can I can get whatever I wanted and new car and live somewhere else. I told my I don't want that. So they told me that they're going to give me protection. Do you want to take me to harass me all that time that bi. and they keep coming by my house and always coming by and my family got tired of it suit. about three months after that the Robert Sigma came Then he was questioned me. And he told me that to tell the jewelry that Leonard Peltier and Dino Butler. Toulouse agents I told him I wasn't going to do that. Then you go. You could be in jail all your life you told me cuz I got the power you told me. To that. He tried to make me see it but didn't say that. Then I went to a grand jury. did Christian me there and everything like that and We're not that grand jury told me that. That was lucky I talk to her. Cuz you could have put you away. I know what he meant by that. so Shrek dad went home. then then they took me to Cedar Rapids. tonight they took me to court house. And they're determined to customers and ask me some questions. Who's ask me some questions? And I asked I just want our shalisa. Can I give Dino? Bop some medicine? So kind of medicine, that's a beauty. To them. We don't allow no drug Center sell he said Tombstone, it's not drugs not drugs into him some medicine and you won't let me do that for them. So they start making fun of me again. I always made fun of me. I always make fun of my scars and Sun dance. They always tell me like what you do, you know. You speak to speak front of me. Well, I was at Kronos when it read came. I went to the place where do you know and need like we're staying at the house? and it was pipe sander and I found one broken pipe there. Couple Eagle Foods were broken there and Medicine bundles open. Nose when you lose wrong these people. Show me to go to the church and do that. 240 flower people there were tell me about the Goons. Do we tell me about the FBI? I believed it, but I didn't think it was that bad. Should I was scared ever since I was staying there? And we always had to look out for went somewhere. And that one morning they came. And if your age is tallest told me he said she said who made that Escape Plan you said who made it through auditor? Who's what's his name? And where does he live? You'll never catch him so you never get them. To turn into question me like that about 30 minutes so find a total. I said Togashi letter Saturday. Can you use English words he lives that will get him will put him in jail. So you don't understand? Which last name is? How do you spell that? I said you can't get through. So so I told him that was our creator and our grandfathers. crazy 3D got down on me when I was in, Arizona. He told me that you can do everything in their power to make me rot. And tell me that Dino and Bob kill us agents. To make it worse was in front of my mom there. Would you go into that a little bit more? Did you say that FBI agents tied into a chair and step from he told you about this or you saw it or he told me? What did he what else did he tell you about that? Do this place about a hundred fifty miles is call Gallup, New Mexico from where we live. And they took him there. And you said feeling Agents from Flagstaff couple from South Dakota that came down. And he told me that they tied him to a chair for 4 hours. Don't give him water and nothing. They told me they weren't going to let him go till we talked and do a rest in him and calling him names. That's what he told me. And so finally this you say it just talkin. Unless that's what he told me. 18 16 and right after the trial and Cedar Rapids Robert super told me that they're going to use me again cuz we'll be looking for you. And I told him I said, I don't think so because you are going to be looking for you. For what use is Leonard's coming down for trial? Then we'll be looking for you going to have to talk to her. And he said I have to be said that. So after that, I went home. Can I dance to the Sundance at crew dogs? Then rest it out. I would have to Canada. So I'm staying now. scared to go home because they threaten me that if I didn't Target Then there's trouble that they could do the same thing. But they told me put me in jail. So that's why I've stayed over Canada. two questions the first one are you arrested and if you were arrested where you arrested on a charge or were you held and related to that? It's not where you held them as a witness. I was not clear. When I went to that trailer. They told me this. that should your so we're holding you on two counts of first-degree murder manslaughter told me. And he told me Victor Harvey told me that. They have the gun that I can decide killed one decent and they told me that they know. And Bob said I killed one of them. And I knew date they didn't they didn't say that they kept trying to tell me that Dino and Bob said this and that. And they told me when I was back home. He said we have you on two counts of manslaughter these two agents. Denise it how about juice stunts? Who's going to stand for his trial until? So we don't know if he's caught in the crossfire. How long were you detained or jailed? Totally? I wasn't Gerald the trailer were talking to me. about six hours six and a half hours But you don't have any time during all of this. He said he said about the movement. They said you guys are a bunch of chickenshit. Try guys do just Raise Hell. He's even juice. This was a chickenshit said that. so I told my son to Union way. the man gets shot and falls on his back was facing the enemy. dinner They said he falls on his stomach. He was running away from the enemy. Did I ask them? How are those? Two agents Lane? Didn't say nothing, so I assumed it through laying on their stomach. Thank you. The testimony of Norman Brown the 16 year old Indian youth used as a prosecution witness at the Cedar Rapids. Trial of aim leaders Dino Butler and Bob rabetao. Also testifying was Neil Locke Butler. The wife of Dino Butler was one of the group of Indians who left Pine Ridge the day of the shoot out and was later picked up in Rosebud Butler referred several times to a companion animeotk wash an Indian activist who was at allegedly threatened by FBI special agent David Price in late 1975 and was found dead with a bullet in her head in February of 1976. The FBI denies the allegations testimony on the case of Aqua had already been presented at the hearings knee lock Butler. They helped me that day to help me all day. They told me that I was supposed to go in the last car to go to Pier that they were arresting me, but they didn't say why. and that day everyone is already gone and it was really late in the evening and had come in the morning and a man walked up to me and he goes we're not going to charge you because we're just going to charge. Do you know so you can go where you want to go? And so I left and I was waiting there like to know why I hate let me go cuz they picked up everybody else that day. and I so I was waiting there and I was looking through the house trying to find some of our stuff but the whole house would just totally torn apart and couldn't find anything. And so I went I was going to walk over to products. And these guys pulled up in a car and I don't know who they were and they come out and they had knives and they just started slashing up things. So I went over to corn dogs then and I waited. And I left her dogs and eventually ended up in Rapid City. And so I've started wanting to go back to Los Angeles cuz I live there for a while. I was going to try and raise funds for Dino and Kodak and all the people that were arrested that day and I went back there without him a So when we're getting off the plane in La I was walking out of the terminal and all of a sudden some of your fries. I didn't know what was going on. So you just hollered at me. So I froze turn around there like 10 guys there that have guns pulled. And they said, you know, we want to talk to you. And I have carried on sack with me had my clothes in it and had penis pipe with me. And they said well, you know, what do you have in that sack so I didn't want to touch in anything. So I took everything out of there to show them what it was. They told me that they thought the pipe with a concealed weapon. and So they weren't they wouldn't tell me, you know what they wanted me for, you know, they kept going, but we know that you know you Kelly Jean McCormick, and they want to to do you know, go ahead we want to let me know. They wouldn't tell me why are picking me up or anything. So I took me over to the FBI office is over at the airport. And Anime said well right now I'm out on Bond and you don't have any reason to hold me and so they were still holding her to that time. So they cleared her and then they still held me and I'm going to I'm going to talk to a lawyer, you know, I want to know why you're arresting me. I want to know why you're picking me up. You know why you're doing this to me, and you know, they kept saying well, you know, you know who you are and, you know, we just want to talk to you and everything like that. We just wanted to tan you. and so then it took me down to the FBI offices in Westwood and their they fingerprinted me and they took my photograph and then they took me down to the federal courthouse and they told me it was too late to see a magistrate and it still wouldn't tell me what they were holding me for. And so they said what will just have to book you into civil brand for the weekend. So they took me down and they booked me into the jail down there and I still didn't know what I was being charged with. So, you know, I kept all this time. I was asking then why I want to talk to a lawyer, you know, and they just won't let me do that. You know, they said well when you get there, you know, you can make a phone call when you get into jail. So when they first book me and you know, I called for a lawyer and I wanted to talk to a lawyer. I finally found out on Monday when I was being held for when they took me before a magistrate and they told me that I was being held for violations of Firearms Act. And they said that they were having their setting my bond at that time in the courtroom. And they said they suggested bond from South Dakota have been $5,000 and federal prosecutor stood up and said, well your honor this woman should have no bail at all. And they said that they see in 24 hours. We're going to have a murder indictment on her for the murder of the two FBI agents on Pine Ridge reservation. So my lawyer that time, you know he put in a call to South Dakota cuz they were going to rain me the next day and they tentatively set my bond at $100,000. and they took me to back downstairs and they were going to expose school the next day again and my lawyer called South Dakota and they said no they did not have those indictments coming. So they took me back upstairs again, and then they said well your bond is 5000 then. So I stayed there until then. Stayed in the jail there until they raise the money somebody put their house up for me. And while I was in jail the FBI come to talk to me and I told him you know, I don't want to talk to you and I have a right to have my lawyer here. I don't have to talk to you and they took me in his room a little small room. They started out this richly and Cordova and they said but we know that you and Dina are very close. And they go I know you don't want to see anything happen to dino. and it go you know what we know everything that happened on June 26th, and we just have a couple blank spots would like you to help us with and they said that they knew that. Do you know and Leonard and Bob and myself had been there at the shootout and that we had somehow escaped and that you know what I had split up from the group and You know, I kept saying Hey, I want my lawyer here. You know, you have no right to do this, you know, and I have every right to have my lawyer here and I just kept on talking at me and talking at me and you know telling me all these things they go, you know, you don't have to worry we'll take care of you and they were saying things you know what I find. I just got really mad and I just told him, you know, I don't want to talk to you and I'm getting out of here and they go well, you know, if you don't want to cooperate with this, I'm sure you can ride in jail or worse. And why was released after that? And I guess the other did not want to say. Is that right? Now? You know. And Pine Ridge there like sapini Angie long visitor and there's a painting two of the women wounded women and their their opinion are women not to you know, this attack is not only on our men they're trying to get the women to and see those people they were there that day when all that happened and I was there so, I mean, I'm challenging the FBI, you know, if you want us to peanut people than subpoena me. You know that's get down to it, you know quit harassing these other people have nothing to do with it. That's all I have to say. Would you like the surname the last name is wounded? I think you mentioned that anime was on the air trip with you to Los Angeles. You said they were there with drawn arms when you hit the guns. I know they were very quiet. Here to tell us springtail. So could you tell us as much as you can? what you mean told you about the But yeah, we talked about that right after the rosebud bus to know if we were standing over there while they were playing in outer part the house and she know she was saying that they would try to come up to her. You know, when it said he's been looking for her and he was really glad to have found her again and the time that they had threatened her to you know, and Chino didn't know what they were going to do. She didn't feel the time. does she really think she know she felt like wish you knew they were after her, you know. I'm a little unclear what she interrogated and held the same way. You were interrogated in care right after Rosebud. She was taking up there and interrogated. No, not in California. They released her that day. It was in September. Why is arrested on September 12th? And she was found in February. And they had brought her when we went to trial finally in Pierre. They had brought her from Oregon and they had you know released her there. The judge had released her and then she chose not to go to court. No. No, I'm one time during the trial in Cedar Rapids degrossi the head of the FBI out in South Dakota. He came up to me and I was sitting there outside the courthouse courtroom and he goes up. There is a Bruce Allison secretary was sitting next to me cuz I want to talk to Bruce. That's my lawyer and he's sitting there and kept looking at me and then he goes, well, you know, I want to talk to her, you know, but he goes I want to talk to her about anime. And that's the only other time. What was the supposed violation of the Firearms Act if they were holding out in Los Angeles? This said that I had unregistered grenades? I found these on your way. They said that the house that we were staying and that there were grenades. They're all right, but they never for trial. They were they said there was dynamite in 2/3 grenades, but they never produced any And my trial lasted one day and are the judge and I was listening to all this testimony. And finally, you know, he asked the prosecutor on he goes what what evidence do you have? You know what we saw her walk out of the house. So I was acquitted. But I also it when I was in California and I was released on bond. I had travel restrictions. I couldn't leave California at all Black Butler describing the events after the Pine Ridge shootout in June of 1975. Jean Bordeaux was also questioned about events in Pine Ridge when she was 15 years old. She was called as a material witness before South Dakota Grand Jury going to do I need to push their way in Crystal way into my house. And I was in bed cuz I was I going to ask him tonight before and I told Danny just open like that and then came in and is this arguing with all the little kids in the house? So Mom asked if they had a search warrant or cuz they said they're going to take me and cuz they said that I knew valuable information that who killed their agents. To my mom asking for it. search Warren or Something that says that they can take me they said that they didn't have it cuz they didn't need it and so I wasn't even dressed or nothing so I went downstairs. FBI came running down after me pulling back up the stairs and I had to take some pills cuz I had a real bad. Accident not FBI thought that my mom is trying to drug me before they took me to jail. And that's when I got to the jail then. they took me to court and they granted me immunity and they didn't even let me see my fifth amendment. They put me back in my cell and I told him I had to go see a doctor that day. Then I had to wait there for about 2 hours. I had a real bad headache and could barely stand up. And I had to go to court so I could go to the doctor and they let me go finally, so I went up there and that doctors and keep me hospital with him. I don't know. He just said to let me go. So I went back to court. I mean back to the courthouse and put me back on my cell and I was waiting there and I got to talk to my lawyer want that was during the court, but I didn't really get to talk to him. So they took me in the Grand Jury Room in us and not the prosecution Robert Sigma. He kept on asking me questions and your lawyer can't be in there, but then I guess you can talk to him cuz I kept on asking if I could talk to him kept on saying no. You said you don't talk and you have to sit in jail till you talk. About a year now about year ago. I think it was in September or something like that November. What made them think that you knew something about what connections would they have used to indicate that I don't know. They didn't tell me my little brother to use a Bop. 11 Jane Bordeaux 16 year old Native American called last year as a material witness before a South Dakota grand jury in connection with a shootout at Pine Ridge and 1975. Bordeaux was joined on the standby aim National chairman. John trudell a name lawyer. Ken Tilson who helped explain that Bordeaux had repeatedly asked for the right to consult with a lawyer during the grand jury questioning and at the transcript of the grand jury hearing shows that she was repeatedly refused, even though the court had specifically instructed the grand jury that Witnesses have the right to request consultation with the lawyers telling her she didn't have the right in spite of the fact that in response to a motion in previous grand jury proceedings. The court had specifically instructed the grand jury that eyewitness has a right to leave the Grand Jury Room and reasonable intervals on occasions to consult with console and it was the kind of thing where if it wasn't the government lawyer who had done it the lawyer would Treated as a witness 16 year old and 17 16 in for time 15 at the time. I would have probably been disbarred. Nobody's done a thing about it and they transcript. Shows of the refusal of her right to a consult with console about it. Well more and more than a dozen times and the space of 15 or 20 minutes. And what about legal situations. I don't know how to answer that in the fact is the fact is they? That there are some other aspects of this thing the grand jury that met that day Matt in Surprise emergency session the clerk of court do normally calls the grand jurors in the session was not even aware that there was going to be a grand jury. There was no file or no records of the existence of a motion or petition or court order in the clerk's office for the issuance of the warrant nor were there any copies of the warrant the first time that they were ever available for anybody to see was the next day after the event when the clerk saw them for the first time all of this entire proceeding which resulted in the original indictment and the bringing of genie in Four or five other people before the grand jury was was more than that that day is between 4 and 8 person was in the most highly unusual and a regular procedure without any court records whatsoever except those that were filed after the event. The court files were completely silent and why she was arrested or didn't exist and was not filed till after her testimony. Rapid City South Dakota, Judge Andrew Bogut was the judge. We don't need one and then kind of a warrant is found later on the typical patterns. They they practically if they get a telephone call from the office saying that they have a right to arrest that a warrant exist. They simply rely upon it and the individual officers do not have this is if it's extremely rare as matter fact, I've never had it seen a case in South Dakota where a warrant for arrest is ever actually shown to a party in as a matter fact, I do the same thing with subpoenas. They they never actually do that. In addition with respect them out on the spot simply write them if they decide they want they want. Nobody they simply right amount. It's a very common practice on the warrant issued because that's what they claim that the agents were attempting to serve in Oglala the day of the shooting but they never did have a warrant. They said we were told that one wasn't existence. But the agents that were there that day had no warrant in their possession which came out later but in the news it said they were attempting to serve a warrant so we know for a fact yes, it would be there in her case. There wasn't a record of a warrant in other cases are sometimes is a record of a warrant. But the people who are being confronted are not giving any evidence other than the oral statement. I have a warrant or there a r a warrant exist someplace in the people have no way of judging whether or not that in fact is accurate or inaccurate and no effort is made at least in South Dakota for the arresting agents are the serving agents in the case of a subpoena. I might also say that in the case of this witness like in Angie and others but even in a wave and more So Hear The subpoena was for her the warrant was for her appearance that morning presumably they could have issued a subpoena and said you're supposed to be downtown in 2 hours or 3 hours. She was home in Rapid City right that and the cause of this with a with her mother and her brother. She had a doctor's appointment a warrant for the arrest of a material witness that they have probable cause to believe from the witnesses past behavior that they will violate a court order and beef and commit the crime of failing to appear when he has issues. And there's simply no effort to comply with the law with respect to the issuance of material witness warrants in South Dakota. If they decide that it's in their best interest to arrest the proposed wetness rather than serve them with a sapini naming a time and place for appearance. They do that. As evidence is what they did with Jeanne and and a number of others. Well, it does occur elsewhere as a matter of fact two weeks ago. I was in Chicago and I heard a man by the name of Jose Lopez from the Puerto Rican Liberation movement describe the search warrants and the method of serving of the search warrants and what was going on inside the city of Chicago with respect to the Puerto Rican community and except for the fact that they were courting off blocks of they Community involving large numbers of people instead of miles of a reservation and going house-to-house and serving every member of his family himself is wife his brothers and everybody at with warrants subpoenas Etc. It apparently is the practice of the FBI in circumstances where they're dealing with a community of people who have some indication of their rights and some desire to respond to the FBI other than By doing anything the FBI ask them and I'm sure that there are other experiences that other people from other communities could tell to that would be very similar to this. well The fact is that if a warrant is an existence, you can't expect the warrant to be in the hands of every police officer, but the question of whether with the question of where do you enter the number of questions one? There is no law that permits the arrest of a material witness without probable cause the problem is of course that isn't the case of Angie long visitor it took 12 days to even have a hearing on the issue. So by the time the issue is raised it's all over with There with respect to the question of the proper method of serving a warrant. You can't really expect every police officer to have the warrant in the physical existence. But you would expect in circumstances such as this where they were going down to predict to pick up one person in Rapid City with the court in Rapid City. The person would bring the warrant and show it to her mother and say we have a warrant of arrest for your daughter and here it is and you would expect that there would be some effort made in the usual case to have the wine. In fact, no effort is made at least in these circumstances. No effort is made to display a warrant. Norman but I want you to 15 years old what is the Well, what ought to have been done? I mean, I don't know where to start. First of all it was no legal basis for the warrant. But assuming there was a proper Court would have appointed console for them would have seen that their rights were protected. What have I seen that their parents and her case your mother was fully apprised of the situation so that her mother would have an opportunity to assist her in the case of in the trial in St. Paul whenever any juveniles were involved the Clark made special protection and in addition appointed an additional console to look out for the rights of the witness because the witness was a juvenile. Loving you has he loved it and they subpoenaed him and didn't one of them they actually subpoenaed a two-year-old or an infant. I think that may have been by mistake. Yeah, it really doesn't make any difference to them. How old the people are. Apparently the app the only answer I can give is apparently not and that of course gets into the question of who gets on grand juries and how they are made up and even more important than that who actually controls the function of the grand jury after all nobody gets in that Grand Jury Room, except the prosecuting attorney's and the agents and I might also add that there is another practice in South Dakota with to my knowledge is unique in South Dakota. And that is at wildly testimony of witnesses such as Jane and Norman are transcribed most of the testimony before the grand jury are made up of FBI agents and government and police officers. They have the practice of not transcribing. I'd only not transcribing not having any method deliberately having the court reporter in any transcription devices removed from the courtroom whenever any FBI agents are police off. Testify which is a practice where have been trying for several years to get some Court to deal with in terms of its legality. The obvious purpose of that is to prevent the existence of a record from which the FBI agents of the other police officers can be cross-examined for when the person is called as a witness. They they there's no record of their testimony. I'm going to stay the conclusion rather. The question is the FBI's issuing warrants for the arrest of 11 year old Witnesses and 15 year old Witnesses. They themselves are recognizing that their engagement cultural Warfare and not in simply trying to apprehend criminals. I think that's true. Wonder dead from alarm more primarily I'm unaware totally unaware of their being used in what might be called Ordinary criminal cases. As a matter fact when you discuss the problems that we've had with lawyers from Criminal bar associations and criminal defense bar. Are they just cannot believe that such conduct go on isolated instance, but go on repeatedly and regularly over the last three years of our having document at this kind of behavior in lawyer can tell someone speaking about the case of Jane Bordeaux and Native American called as a material witness before South Dakota Grand Jury when she was 15 years old that concludes our midday program for today tomorrow. We prevent the last in a series of highlights of the Minnesota citizens review commission hearings on the FBI. I kneel Saint Anthony