I expected welfare reform is going to be a major issue in the coming 95th Congress and I expect it will be voting on a wide range of of the amendments to probably a basic legislative proposal of the Carter Administration and give her the diversity and the complexity and the wide variety of subjects covered by welfare.I felt it. It would be helpful for me. representing the people of Are district in the Congress they has a views of those of you. Who are most directly affected by concerned with the welfare either in position of being a welfare recipient? welfare director caseworker or county commissioner who has to sit on the board and and vote the funds to implement the programs Congressman James Oberstar. Is he open the recent Duluth welfare reform hearing the 8th District Democrats was just back from hearings in Boston in Chicago of a new Coalition of Northeast and Midwest Industrial states, which believe their economic growth has leg because of the attractions of low taxes and cheap labor in the nation's Sunbelt a Common Thread that ran through the testimony of these past two days and we started at 8 in the morning and and ran until late afternoon and into the evening. Common Thread from Governors from County Commissioners from mayors labor leaders Bankers businessman was concerned about the cost of welfare. It was astonishing to me. It was a striking concern was expressed by one and all. The consensus literally of the witnesses and our two days of hearings. Was that we have a federal policy? Which supports A system that disproportionately. Taxes the northern states to the benefit and advantage of the southern states of our nation. The answer to the welfare program it was intended that that's a poor states should pay less and that the more well-to-do States should pay more. Yeah, that's time has gone on and as the flight of capital investment and jobs to the South became more pronounced. As a South mechanized its Agriculture and drove the poor black sharecropper out of Southern Agriculture and froze him out of the welfare system. The blacks move north to the old industrial cities of the Middle Atlantic states New England and a little farther east to us of the lower Great Lakes states. increasing their burden of welfare While industry was being attracted to South. example the state of Mississippi FaZe something like $66 a month in welfare benefits to a family of four. I'm sorry. It's $88 a month for a family of four. The state only pays $18 of that $88 for a family of four. In Massachusetts testimony we had on Monday showed that the state of Massachusetts is paying for a family of four $330. How much is the federal government is paying half as compared to 80% of the payment in Mississippi? If you were poor. out of work saddled with a large family of children, what would you do? Go north. Because that's where you can get some help certainly aren't going to get it though states of the South and yet during this. Of time as the wealth job opportunities federal assistance has flowed into the South there has been no adjustment in the share of welfare pay me that the federal government makes to to the southern states nor have they taken it upon themselves to adjust their own benefits payments. So clearly the time is Willis. For National welfare reform not just adjustment in in benefits. So that may be the first step in probably the most important step if we are to equalize the growing disparity between the North and the South where to stabilize the flow from the countryside to the cities Equalization of payments May well be the very first step that we shall have to take it in the long run. They confusing and complex scheme of the welfare programs are Public Assistance programs is something that the Congress and the Carter Administration are going to have to come to grips with I don't think we can do it alone and we need to help with people like you who are involved in the day-to-day basis, very practical Technical and professional sense with administration of the program. And with the on the state level of passing legislation to implement welfare programs opening remarks that he believes welfare reform is overdue and inevitable. It was clear from over Stars opening remarks that he believes welfare reform is both overdue and inevitable. He didn't get much argument from anyone who testified in the following six. Our first witness was Miles wangensteen director of Social Services in St. Louis County, which for its population has a huge welfare budget of more than 30 million dollars annually for the welfare reform until I looked up the definition of reform this morning in the dictionary and I feel a little better about it. Now. It says to make better by removing false and defects the correct to make better by introducing better for procedures Etc. And I think this is one of our major problems in our present welfare programs, and I want to make one suggestion before I forget it and that is whatever is done in Congress. I would suggest personally to you and publicly right now that it be titled subsidies rather than welfare because subsidies to business. Industry the farmers to almost every other segment of the population is very well accepted and in fact industry and business men go after them. I don't know why we shouldn't intitle if subsidies to people or Human Service subsidies or something of that nature. I think what I'd like to do now my opening remarks is to call the attention of the group particular those that aren't employed in the field some of the Are well our programs have just grown leaps and brown buy bleach and Bounds. They've they've been added to and probably never subtracted from About two years ago when we had several new welfare board members of one of them asked the staff to prepare a glossary of terms and we did and it's four pages long just terms that we use in the wall Fairfield. Let me just go over a few of them a f t c g a m s a s s i c i m a g a f c a f f c a p t u w i s m i l a n c i d i c f e p s d t e r c. John adidon added on with North fought in the legislative process or perhaps in the room making process of Congress for each ew2 integrating services to integrating programs in the programs are becoming so complicated and so difficult to administer that I say the good Lord himself couldn't do it and in my opinion and They are not serving the because of the complexities that said or they're not serving. I don't think the original intention of the program and I asked the staff yesterday for some of the inconsistencies in our maintenance program Income Maintenance. And these are just a few one couple living in the community one become so ill or disabled that one must enter the nursing home couple receive Social Security of approximately $480 a month. The spouse is expected to contribute all but $272 a month towards Nursing Home Care Plus $25 more of the 272 for the other spouse's clothing and personal needs the inequities the spouse gives up his or her own Social Security retirement money to support the spouse and a high-cost facility. The shelter cost can be so high in the homestead that it is impossible to exist on the $247 a month that's remaining the spouse is reduced the public assistance level without choice and is eligible for title 19. The FTC emergency assistance program where we can grant emergency assistance to the FTC recipient one month in any 12-month. The inequity is that the recipient may need a little go-kart article such as a used refrigerator or other used appliance in this is granted to that person their way up there for that. FTC client is ineligible to receive any emergency supplement for the balance of the year. They may have plumbing needs electrical emergencies or major repairs on the home, but there's nothing we can do to help that person for 12 months. Afdc stepfather case apparently it is considered a married woman and inherited no responsibility financially or socially for the children regardless of income. He does not have to support you cannot choose to contribute a portion of the children's knee. All employee. If you see mothers with children over 6 years of age are mandatorily referred to win program the inequity. There are some women who can't cope with work and child-rearing and if they are encouraged or forced to find employment the children are going to suffer. lately What's the largest mess in our opinion is the m a spend-down? The recipient has tried to meet the bills and is gone broke the vendors apply pressure for payment to spend on forces him to pay one-half. The difference over is allowable income in for two people as $272 a month three people $324. And these are just some of the inequities are many many of them. There are inequities in a share of the financing of Income Maintenance programs varies from 50 to 80% depending upon the per capita income of each state in relation to all the other 50 states. Therefore, that's why some of the southern states to get 80% of the cost paid for by the federal government where in Minnesota we get there at present 56% but the complexities of the funding there are enough to Boggle the mind and we could go on and on but my only point is to try to point out the complexities of our present programs and the fact that in my opinion to meet the needs of people And to make it easier to administer these programs have to be greatly simplified simplified were pretty typical of those heard in the morning session of the Duluth welfare reform conference, which featured professionals working in the social service field my notes contain phrases, like only one sensible way straighten out should be phased out and most often talked of eliminating the various welfare categories Ray from of the Cook County Social Service Department kind of assistance for all. based upon need with all without the various categories the various eligibility rules and regulations to do so the guests say the when it comes to an income maintenance worker 50% at least of their time by eliminating paper shuffling. Would also save an awful lot on the paper Bill Dolan both koochiching County agreed with drama elimination of categories you argued for a national health insurance and for an end to the unequal distribution of welfare will both among the states and even with In Minnesota where some counties tap local taxpayers only $50 per capita to fund Social Services While others run as high as $190 a year, but well bolt wants higher units of government to accomplish that he also urged that welfare Administration be kept out the lowest feasible level of government where it can actually be accomplished. There's been a lot of talk in the state of Minnesota about placing the Income Maintenance programs under State Administration I feel that many of the county boards filled with this is almost necessary because of funding concerns and this is largely the issue of if it would be possible to keep those programs administered at the local level. I think we can do the job with more imagination weekend. Do it more rapidly. We can be more efficient in terms of providing services to people I would hesitate I would be much concerned as to what the cost of administering the programs were If eventually the administration of them where to go to the federal level, but I hear lots of people saying that eventually or ultimately this is where we're heading for. I hope not I hope that we can keep it where the people administering the program know the communities in which they live are immediately responsible for electing Board of Commissioners. So, I know one bowl of Christian County Congressman are asked several of the participant see if they agreed that federal income taxes are a progressive. Form of Taxation while local property taxes are regressive and that more Federal funding with us put paying the cost of welfare on a more Equitable basis. He found wide agreement for that concept, but Edwin Hanson a member of the Lake County welfare board advocated an additional source of dollars to create a kid in front funny. From all monies realized from the taxes on the liquor industry. This fun to be used for welfare and law enforcement. Each of us can point to a member of our family a relative friend or neighbor who has been become addicted to alcohol or drugs. Most welfare workers and Welfare board members will agree that a large percentage of welfare cases are directly or indirectly brought on by alcoholism and drug abuse. As in the case of taxes on gasoline and diesel fuel used for the highway system. Let's use the liquor tax money for law enforcement and Welfare social service programs Hanson unlike some of the other welfare officials spoke highly of the food stamp program Congressman Oberstar pursued that subject with Aunt for cashing out food stamps and that's going to be a food stamp program reform. It's going to be a major issue in the coming Congress made a reference to food stamps where we have now over 18 closer to 19 million people in America receiving food stamps cost of a close to 6 billion dollars. St. Louis County Lake County and Carlton County where the first three counties in the nation in 1961 to begin the food stamp program on a pilot basis for the million dollars and now it's growing the six billion dollars. What's your reaction is one of the one of those original counties to participate in the program to a cash out proposal just give people cash and not stamps recommends that and we go along with that in Lake County. One of the things that we talked about coming down here this morning was that People are critical of the food stamp program because they don't really realize what it's all about. I think most people are all of the the opinion that food stamps are given given for free, which is not true except in the few cases. It's true of those people who have no income, but the food stamps cost most people some money there is criticism when people line up at the food stores at the supermarket counter and see somebody buying Choice steak, or at least good steak with food stamps. I don't think that's a fair criticism. I think poor people are entitled to eat steak once in awhile to They did pay part of the cost of it. They lose sight of the fact that the original intent to the food stamp program was to help the farmers of this country by increasing the demand for the products are there for the next speaker also generally supported the food stamp program. But Marcy Schmidt Financial supervisor for the Chisago County Welfare Department had some concerns to we like the program and we believe it helps a lot of needy people it helps him supplement their income and giving them or purchase power the grocery store. There are a couple of things I would like to mention and I guess one is a point we hear from the general public all the time and that's eligibility for food stamps for seasonal employees in the winter time. I don't know what seems to be a bone of contention with the general public and even maybe with welfare workers tool. I'm referring mainly to construction workers and other seasonal employees who sometimes are in between 50 to $20,000 a year in a very short time 7 8 9 10 months and then draw unemployment food stamps in the winter time. We believe or at least some of the people that we've talked to would like to see an annualized income for seasonal employees similar to what is done with school teachers. I think it would be most Equitable and fair way to handle that type of situation. The Chisago County representative said however that if the food stamp program is controversial afdc is more so too fast or separations divorces and maybe even a legitimacy instead of temporarily helping up the family. It seems to in the long run faster total dependency on welfare. The availability of afdc the minute that there is a separation between a husband and wife seems to be a big point with those that work with welfare system. A person has Tony come into the welfare department and in a matter of days or even sometimes hours can walk out with a nasty C checked herself and her family. There is no time element as are you used to be? 7 years ago there was a 90-day waiting. Or cooling off. Between before there was eligibility for afdc. I'm not saying we should wait 90 days, but maybe they're there should be some time. Before there would be eligibility. This would maybe and I say maybe make a few couples or families think a little bit before separating so many times. It seems to be a purely financial crisis or situation that makes up couple separate. I think we really need to continue to meet need I need it immediately if necessary, but it seems that we could do a better job if we helped intact families on the same level as we help app to see mother and children Schmidt phone fault in some welfare programs, but made it clear and a dialogue with Congressman Oberstar. She didn't find the situation all bad. It just needs to be in a few things changed and me and brought into a more into one general welfare program rather than so many small little areas simplifying the complexity and the and the plethora of programs that we now have introduced that diversity down to a workable minimum base sometime standardized program that can apply with basic eligibility criteria. I'm regardless of of the various categories eliminate the categories get to a needs formula regardless of his that Hansen said regards whether blind or elderly or whenever the need of the family. What about the work incentive programs for afdc recipients, which is another proposal that has been suggested by members of Congress by both the Nixon and Ford administrations. I have no idea what the Carter is going to propose, but I'm sure that he will have some welfare reform Notions. But most often is mentioned a work incentive program. What's your reaction to that notion? I guess I don't understand exactly the some program rather undefined and its details that would provide the incentives for afdc recipients site to find gainful employment and then does subsidized unemployment bring it up two basic minimum standard of living. Oh, yes. I think there needs to be an incentive to for a family to go to work. Because it doesn't really make any sense. If someone is on some kind of welfare program to take every it'll dollar-for-dollar away there needs to be an incentive given to them to go to work. I think that it needs to be some limit set on it though, either dollar limits our time limits and a weaning process so that they can eventually become self-sufficient but supplement them to a point. That's the hard part to come up with. You know, where do you draw the line? Where do you set the time or where do you set the dollar figures at in order to make themselves to fish and how long do you go and then that's something All we can do is offer suggestions for but I think the incentive needs to be there. Definitely. welfare, in fact tends to force people to to make a choice just on a pure economic basis from a rather substantial welfare combination of payment systems of force and from work situation into a welfare situation. Have you had that experience as well as moving out into the county but and then becoming unemployed and not being able to find jobs in the local area with also had a lot of families already on assistance moving out into the area. The thinking seems to be that it's cheaper to live in the country than in the city and it's 30 to 40 miles north of the city. It isn't any cheaper really because if you're going to find a job you're going to have to travel back into metropolitan area. The jobs are very limited out and she saw go, There's no large town that the largest town in 1,100 people there's three or four of those but that's all the there's no large industry. There's no nothing that is So we're finding that if families are moving out and maybe are employed at the time because of the unemployment situations and and the changes they're becoming unemployed and it's becoming increasingly difficult for them to become reemployed. And so there they are coming into the welfare Agency for assistance. Want to consider it and maybe others of you might want to think about it is some means of providing Income Maintenance and income assistance for what we Loosely call The Working Poor people who have a job but the income from from that job not being enough to sustain a family at a minimum level of somewhere above the poverty line and I think it's in the best interest of societies hold key people working rather than encourage them to leave their job by offering the weather Tractive package of it as compared to their work situation on a self-sufficient basis, but barely and I really I think that the food stamp program helps in some areas, but lot of people don't want to apply for food stamps that are in that category. They're working. They're self-sufficient, but barely but they're too proud to come in and ask for food stamps to make some other agency the responsible one for distribution of food stamps other than the welfare. I think it went a lot of the older they cases very much. So they still tied the food stamp program to welfare. And there's a lot of Pride involved in the elderly especially do not want to come into a welfare agency to apply for food stamps irregardless of where the program originates from Express that the senior citizen meetings that many of them many senior citizens would be willing to take food stamps if they could go to some other place than the welfare office to to get them. That is something I think probably we ought to consider and I don't know just what except the federal government plays a role in determining who dispenses food stamps, but I'm glad to have your thinking on that. Jerome Turnquist of Carrollton County was next remember correctly back in about 1968 in inaugural address coined the phrase welfare mess. We spent the last years 8 years referring back to that word. And we got a variety of different proposals come through and then some of them have gone Parkway some of never got started and it seems to me that one of the problems that we've experienced during his eight years is that we've tried to look entirely at reforming the whole picture at one time and we have not addressed ourselves to some very simple kinds of things that would greatly streamline the system and would change the current program so that they were much more manageable and I'm hoping that in this new era of welfare reform that we're entering into now that we not only look at what we hope is a long-range goal, but that we pay some attention to some of the short-range goals that we can do fairly quickly because even at best I would see Some reform being to three years away before I could actually be implemented. I too hope that we can get to one eligible at 1 program based on need eliminating all of these special interest groups having the only special interest group meeting need I think would be far more Equitable and I think if we look at a ministrative costs and those continue to rise every year also which becomes an additional expense to the welfare programs. They continue to go out and I guess I just have a couple of suggestions on on some short-range goals that I I think are important and I I would hope that would be considered MIT maybe I sound a little facetious on the first one, but I would hope that somewhere in the in the federal government. We could find somebody who can write the laws and the rules and regulations so that when they're challenged in court they would stand up if it seems to me that in the last few years and I'm not being facetious. I'm not blaming the courts. I'm just saying that we ran in that phenomena now where it where we're being challenged on everything that's written and I'm not going to comment whether that's good or bad. But I I'm just saying we've lost too many of those and the quarter ended up selling policy and administrative costs, particularly and the uncertainty for the client as to whether they're eligible or not eligible. Has created a lot of problems and when you have to go through your entire case was making a change because of a new regulation from h e w and a challenge in court in 6 months. So you have to do the whole thing over again because it falls down doesn't hold up it in the second. I am seems to me with all the expertise that we have in this country. We ought to be able to do that. If we continue with the same setup that we have now for a few years. I think it's very important that somehow we get the different programs that are called welfare programs administered by the same Federal agency. Right. Now we have a GW who has responsibility for the majority of the programs. We have the Department of Agriculture was responsible for the food stamp program. We have the department of labor involved in the win program. And so is it necessary to deal with three different federal agencies and there's an awful lot of duplication in my mind. Anyway, we have people coming in and applying for afdc who spend an hour to two hours going through and through the application process 5450 some items on a on a checklist that must be be done at the time of that application when they get done there. They walk down the hall they spend another hour taking food stamp application, which has to be the same information. I don't think there's you know, it's all the same kind of thing different kinds of forms presented in different ways. But that's a duplication in my mind and it just seems to me that if we could get them under one Federal agency. So we could have one standard kind of operating procedure. We would we would save a lot of administrative costs when the same way that might not be as bad. But that also requires a client coming back two or three times to go to the wind process different kinds of information same information different form. And it seems to me that we could save some time and effort in that particular way. Increase Federal participation, I guess of the cost of welfare. I think a very important for many years the state or federal participation has remained in Minnesota for around 55% that the cost of the County's to the state of the federal government, of course have gone up and I guess the state has tried to alleviate that tremendous burden on the counties in and we appreciate that. But industry is also saying that the state is not conducive to bring a new industry in because of the taxes the tax burden that's placed upon them and whether that's true or not. I don't know but that's what they're saying. And it seems to me that that if that's true then maybe we have to look at the federal government to pick up a larger portion of welfare cost which would in effect and relieve the state of some of that taxing a burden. I guess I have a couple of for a philosophical concern about the the the kinds of things that are being done to the to the welfare recipient. I guess it's generally felt that some of the problems we're having in our country the fact that there's a there's a breakdown of the family and that many people have said that the mother should be back in the home or something one of the parents. Anyway, I should be back in the home when the children come home and maybe that would attend to relieve some of the problems and we feel like that's kind of important at least some of the welfare recipients with a child reaches sick. She has to register for when she has to go into training and she has to go into you don't go out and find a job and she's a single parent family out working there. Is anybody home to to meet her children when she come home and seems to me there's a certain amount of inconsistency there. There's also a certain amount of inconsistency in my mind. Anyway where we're spending billions of dollars to try and bring down the unemployment rate. Which is his Hideout it's ever been and yet we're saying to a woman who's on afdc and who wants to stay home and take her to join. You have to register an appointment. You have to go out and find a job. We're spending billions and billions of dollars doing that on the same had trying to bring down the unemployment right? It seems to me that there's some kind of philosophical inconsistency it at that point. The next asked St. Louis County welfare director miles wangensteen to testify further wangensteen who's considered a national leader in Social Service Administration said, he doesn't think Income Maintenance programs should be funded locally legislature or congress really tells us who is eligible for the programs. They tell us how much assistance they're going to receive. Now it's local government has no say in the items such as that other words if they can't be more liberal or can't be more restrictive a why should there there's no logical reason for a little government being a part of the cost of those programs. Local government at least in Minnesota is only income is from the real estate tax. The real estate tax is an extremely regressive tax particularly aspartame to the elderly who are on a who on a fixed retirement income. We feel very strongly that the real estate the phone should only pay for those costs of government which are attributable to only real estate to such as Bridges and Roads police and fire Su water and things of that nature. Real estate should not be expected to pay the cost of welfare Income Maintenance particularly, not a tour of schools and other governmental functions such as that. Another reason for having no local participation in our opinion is that in many instances the the problem that brings people to the doors of the welfare department applying for a cyst the solution to those problems are beyond the control of local government. For example, we're having high unemployment now throughout Minnesota this brings more people into apply for Relief. Is there out of work and they can't support their families. It is beyond the solution to problems of unemployment is beyond the ability of County government to solve fact, I would say probably probably beyond the ability of state government to solve and is largely a federal problem and solutions have to come from the federal government. Now if we have to treat a situation for which we have no solution to the basic problem. Why should I why should we have to pay the cost of that stuff of providing your sister to the individuals? Another reason for federal funding is as been mentioned before and I'll just go over it briefly very briefly is the inequities of the programs from one from one state to another why should the state of Alabama or Mississippi? Whichever one you mentioned have an average afdc gram to 15 or $18 a person in Minnesota have an average grams of some somewhere in the eighties other than the regional differences in the cost of living a person in need of financial assistance in Mississippi should have that need met as adequately as if met in Minnesota or any of the northern states, why should they they have lesser programs? Another thing that we feel very strongly about Nara county is the whole matter of public services and employment. I think most of us in this country. Certainly. I do believe in the work ethic that being that if an individual is physically and mentally capable of working. They should have employment with high on them and that the first place they should get employment is in the private sector, but when the private sector for a variety of economic reasons can't provide jobs for every person able and willing to work then that person should be employed in a public and public service employment. Now there are many individuals that say public service employment work and that's a bunch of baloney because in Duluth here, we have had an agreement with the city of Duluth and their use of seat of funds and our use of relief funds where we do have a program of public service employment. We pay with the average Grant and relief would be to the city and need they put these unemployed people on City job. Not that were covered by up by a city employee, but jobs that needed that need to be done, but they don't have enough money to finance. I have sent your staff a copy of the report and I'll send you another one in that shows. One of the criticisms of public service employment is people say what they'll get on it, and I'll never go into private employment. This study that the program we've had for 2 years shows that is not true that people do go to private employment when they have the opportunity and when they get the necessary training, so we feel very strongly particularly in areas of high employment that there should be public service employment funded completely by the federal government. Mangosteen told the congressman. He strongly favor is a system of national health insurance and touched on an issue which distresses many welfare critics Medical Care is discriminatory really in a way a low-income person or person receiving an income maintenance man, welfare department automatically gets any medical care. They need paid for certain other low-income individuals in the community who also I'm not sure that they probably getting more medical care. I don't think it's a matter of there if they're being a difference between the need for medical care. But that person that's a little bit above that the real role he or she or their family probably aren't going to the position and getting after the dentist and getting out of here cuz they can't afford it and they may or may not have health insurance at least in our County the average cost for medical care for an afdc family. If there was a dollar sign is no greater than the cost the county pays for Blue Cross Blue Shield County employees and Blue Cross Blue Shield. Our policy is a very good one, but it's certainly not as inclusive as what people on a PC get cuz it doesn't our policy doesn't provide for Dental Care Ambulance Service too many things like that, which under Public Assistance we pay for So I I don't think it's necessarily exorbitantly high cost care. that gives rise also to some of the complaints from from citizens that people on welfare really have better medical and Hospital coverage than those who are working any question about that. But it's not at my opinion that they get to good medical care. The fact that many of us do not receive adequate medical care. If some of the other Will Ferrell fishel's were a bit undecided about the food stamp program wangensteen was not we're talkin about the elderly earlier some of the time that the elderly not wanting to come to the welfare department. I think that's very true. I don't think they want to go to Vince Genna knees outfit either. I don't think they want to go to the agriculture Department. The thing that hurts is when they go to the grocery store with those food stamps and identify. And so this isn't a good program. I feel very strongly that if people need more money to buy food, let's give him cash. 99% of the music and responsible Manner and it was 1% that don't come you care for her take care of the weights and you got to again remember that the food stamp program in St. Louis County was the first one in the country was just Northern st. Louis County and no date yet. Remember the food stamp program was started back 10 12 13 years ago as an additional subsidy or as a program for the farm Farmers, we have tremendous Surplus Surplus is a farm Goods in those days. So it was started to help the farmers not to help poor people and they're the only my opinion as helping son with no question, but it really not helping them cuz it's it You see the eyes and some of those people coming in to get them or else going in the grocery store and other people poke looking at and that's terrible. That is one of the real tragedy human the tragedy of the food stamps is something that I have heard from Anoka County to koochiching county in Cook County all throughout this district and was interesting that in meetings in the Northeast and and in Chicago in the last 2 days that we heard pretty much the same feeling expressed that it said there's something degrading about food stamps about standing in line with these little stamps and that leads us back then to a cash out to suggestion and to some some uniformity just maybe putting the whole program eliminating categories of welfare assistance and putting it all on a needs basis and on 1 eligibility criteria. Was necessary for to go to apply for food stamps and she told me that she took her daughters to the grocery store with her once and after that her daughters wouldn't go with her. Because of the food stamp office st. Louis County Social Service director miles wangensteen followed by his counterpart in Anoka County John Hale felt having a real Emmanuel's had that stretches farther than I can reach my arms with the policies of the Department of Public Welfare with the policy manual the instructional manuals the informational manuals and I concede Congressman that I don't know what's in this array of material that stands behind my desk. If I say director of some you're standing don't know what's in that mass of material how in the world can any of my staff people have that breadth of knowledge to deal with the Myriad problems that comes before I send the day-to-day operation of the program. I do played for clarification Simplicity in the code of federal regulations. We start out a curse with Congress passing the federal law and I don't have the foggiest notion as to how that Law relates to the Federal Regulation. How much of what is in this book comes from people like myself who staff h e w how much of it is Congressional mandate. Do I write to Congressman or burst because something your other is impacting on the people in my county. Do I write to the Secretary of h e w do I write to the regional director? How do I get? Some action on impacting and need a change. I hearken back to comments made by John Kennedy. Perhaps I have the quote little out of context. But President Kennedy one time said something like this ask not what your country can do for you, but ask instead what you can do for your country. And I think that in dealing with people who come into a County Social Services welfare department. There's a bit of contradiction in the sense that here. We are waiting for the federal government to do more to come to the aid of the County's while at least in Anoka County up to the present time. We've been saying to people come into the County Welfare Department or social service department, like what can you do for yourself? What is our responsibility as local County people to take a look at what we can now do with what is already available. Are we making the best use of those resources that exist today? I can't help but think of the difference in people as to individual preferences and abilities. I recall that you're all of us would appreciate the first experiences something stay with us a little longer. So when I started out in the field of Public Welfare back in 1947. I remember an old lady in Montgomery who subsisted pretty much on black bread ketchup and coffee three meals a day a little later after getting married and sharing home with a elderly couple in Golden Valley. My landlord wouldn't sit down at the table without having meat three times a day no meat no meal of a difference in people as to their preferences and abilities. We talked about a uniform standard of assistance. What should that standard be? Is it to be what would provide a minimum adequate income for a person who is capable of managing money or would it be instead? Be an adequate income for someone who has minimally capable of handling money. Do we provide the need for these individuals of varying abilities by giving them the same amount of money Anoka County welfare director, John Hill felt it was among the very few who raised the question of fraud with Congressman Oberstar. That we use in the administration of our program in my mind contribute to fraud. If we don't provide people with a basic income necessary to meet need and they are without other legitimate resources doesn't this encourage fried summerly don't are regulations at time encourage fraud. I brought with me as an example. Hey informational bulletin received last week from the Department of Public Welfare, and eyesight this only at Celeste Road of of the type of thing that I speak of. This particular bulletin addresses that sell to the general assistance Medical Care Pharmacy guidelines and let me quote. Section c on auto line prices when the price submitted by the provider exceeds the maximum allowable costs by 20% or more. The price should be questioned as all we have no need to question the price that is 19% above the state of Maxima letter words for the law the regulations the rules the policies to be explicit in language that they are to be uniformly administered throughout the state. The question of of fraud is one that is frequently raised has been the subject of Investigations and of committee hearings by Senate committees in Congress. I think you would rest yourself properly to that then. You're concerned about the regulations. I could see the heads nodding off sure the audience the real Siri. The problem basically is that welfare has developed as a piecemeal process. It was added on and then in the next Congress another bid was added on and then another bit was added on and it it just sort of growed like topsy. And now we've got to rationalize that gross eliminate the complexities simplify the the law and the regulations and respond to some of the concerns that you've articulated than others have articulated today Congressman Auburn start talking with Anoka County welfare director, John well felt perhaps you had expected the summary of the Duluth welfare reform hearing to be full of emotional charges of chiseling rip offs in the leg. And certainly there was some of that in fact the Duluth News Tribune really focused on that aspect of the hearing as the newspaper reporter apparently perceive things a bit differently than I did. Let me read a few excerpts from the story which was headlined citizens sound off on welfare reform. No, welfare recipients should be allowed to own a car a home television set or have a telephone. Food stamp recipient should be forced to do their grocery shopping in a huge Warehouse operated by the federal government to prevent them from buying steak and other fancy food persons on unemployment should shovel walks in front of the welfare office and do janitorial work in exchange for unemployment benefits. So the state would not have to hire maintenance workers should also be asked to report to the office more often to prove that they're trying to find jobs. Further on the Duluth News Tribune reports Rodger Lindbergh addressed his remarks to the problems of housing welfare recipients just as we have slum landlords. We also have slim Tennessee said one problem is that when you have a tenant that's on welfare. And if he refuses to pay the rent the landlord has no way to recover his money. He has no recourse in court another man charged that the welfare program encourage women to leave their husbands and was splitting up the family unit. There were comments as well from some welfare recipients on present deficiencies within the system and some suggestions for changes. For example, Judy Fisher coordinator for the Head Start follow-up program said she saw several inconsistencies within the program and that the government wasn't keeping up to date with increased cost-of-living the guidelines for welfare recipients Fisher said are totally out of touch with the cost of living today. The federal government has not updated itself with cost-of-living raise. Its a person may be poor but welfare doesn't see them that way somewhere. She added along the line you have to start treating people as individuals another Head Start program social worker Charlotte Higgins said some method of informing potential recipients of their rights is needed when a recipient comes in. She said they're completely dependent on the person they see to know about their rights. They need someone else to go to Lowe's excerpts from the Duluth newspaper account of the welfare reform hearing all quite accurate is reflected in this bit of testimony by Jack Lafond. How much would a big Warehouse is that? They can buy food real cheap or cheaper than any individual and they should these people that are on food stamps. They should spend them at those warehouse and they shouldn't be in competition with the with the with the taxpaying citizens. I have gone in the in the past 5 years in Duluth. Now you're going to the grocery store and these welfare recipients. They've got great big baskets full of feel I can afford. I am 56 and I worked I've been working all my life. And I don't and you say 147. I see I'm paying with the food stamps. And I believe this is things I believe now. I don't say it's just what I believe. I think I want for the recipient should not be allowed to own a house or telephone are there may be a few cases where they probably would be. Alright, but that wouldn't have to be very rare So if you attended the conference looking for reinforcements of the idea that welfare is a big boondoggle. You wouldn't have been totally disappointed. But the main thrust in our of you at least was a serious effort to make a troubled system work better for taxpayer and recipient, Hawaii Congressman Oberstar mentioned time. And again, what seems to him to be an emerging consensus on how to proceed the Council of North East governors. Which prepared and an agenda for our Coalition of Northeast Midwest Congressman suggested reform of welfare programs the first step being a movement Nationwide to a 50/50 funding of welfare 50% Federal 50% state. or state and local whatever it anyway, 50% non-federal and then after a year or two after this has stabilized itself and equalize their the cost and the and the various regions of the nation of been able to adjust with then I moved to a 75% Federal and 25 local share and then to a to adjust the qualifications for the eligibility criteria on a national uniform basis establishing. What is a poverty level in making a judgment for the lower cost of living in the South as compared to the much higher cost of living in the north and Northeast. What would be your reaction to that type of proposal * ask that question throughout the session and repeatedly was told yes, that's the idea much like a plan advocated by the National Association of counties a plan developed incident laid by a committee chaired by commissioner Frank jungus of Cottonwood County in Minnesota. So there was General consensus in Duluth on the direction to take on National welfare reform. There was also broad consensus that it won't be easy. This is Nick Daley.