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NORBERT DAVIS: When I was a boy, I was only about seven years old when I was allowed to go to school with my older sisters and brothers just for the sake of that noon lunch, for times are hard here.

HOST: That's Norbert Davis, who considers the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation our hometown. This is one of a series of programs exploring the history and character of life of small North Dakota communities, produced by Minnesota Public Radio station KCCM, with funds provided by The North Dakota Committee for the Humanities and Public Issues.

On today's program, you'll hear various views on the Bureau of Indian Affairs from Mary Cornelius, active in the welfare rights movement Leona an Earnest patenaude of the local community group The Associates for Progress, Frank Moran, the superintendent of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and James Henry, the tribal chairman. The interviewer is John Ydstie. Now Norbert Davis tells about his early life on the reservation.

NORBERT DAVIS: So we'd go to school. And all we used to get was fried salt pork. And from that grease, they'd make a gravy. And they'd bake an Indian bread, what they called la galette. That's French.

Then they'd ask, Who wants to drink some tea? There was no coffee them days. And that tea, the government tea had an awful taste. So most of us drank water.

JOHN YDSTIE: It was pretty hard times when you were young?

NORBERT DAVIS: I'll say they were. When I was about nine years old, they had vacant Fort Totten. And they turned it to a school. And that's the first boarding school that we ever heard of. They said they turned it over to a boarding school.

So one of my sisters and I were put up there. And the fall of [? 1905, ?] the Indians didn't have anything. When they were put on the reservation here, they had drove what horses they had, probably one horse on a Red River cart, probably a team on an old wagon.

And after we've been here for a few years, our hor-- the horses were getting just that old and weak that, if they should die off, we didn't have no money to buy another horse. And the laws were so strict. Like I said about cutting the timber, we had to come-- they had to come to the agent and get permission to cut so many logs for our shack and so many poles for the roof.

And there was no way to make a living. Those that's living outside-- lived outside the reservation, like the whites, they used to go by our place there with cord wood they'd take out to the prairie to trade for-- or sell.

But we on the reservation were not allowed to cut any wood to sell. So that made it things mighty hard. I remember one time, I was just a little kid, the people all got together. And they called up a meeting with our agent.

There was no superintendent them days. It was an army man was put here in charge of the reservation. So they had a meeting with him and asked him if they could clear some land so they could break it up for a garden.

So he wrote to Washington. And the answer was no. If they did allow that, the people would start cutting a lot of good timber down. And he says, try to find an open space somewhere where you could make your garden.

We used to have to go out and dig Seneca roots. They call them snakeroots for short. That's how-- that's how the people would make a living. Then after we throw the land open-- the forefathers throw the land open for farming, we'd go out and work on the farms. And we were given mighty small wages. We had to store that money away for the winter.

Oh, we had some awful hard times. I know there's a lot of people who would be sitting around at home there and nothing to eat, especially the elders. They have no children or a sick-- somebody had been sick. And he couldn't get out to work.

They had some awful hard times. And they used to give a ration afterwards, probably about 3 or 4 pounds of flour, and probably 1 pound of salt pork, and probably 1/2 a cup of tea. That's every two weeks. Twice a month is when they were given that ration. And that wouldn't last for a family.

And if we happened to leave the reservation for more than 24 hours, we had to report to the get a permit from our agent and give them the location where we were going. We were allowed to go to any town-- surrounding towns providing that we get back inside of 24 hours.

JOHN YDSTIE: Did it help change the laws that you went to war, do you think?

NORBERT DAVIS: Yes. In 1920, I signed a petition back in Montana with the [? Sioux ?] that had went and served overseas. When they know that I had served in the army and overseas duty, they come and asked me if I'd sign that petition to break that old treaty and be given more privileges in this world, in the United States, as I'll say.

In 1923, I guess I started talking, having some articles in the papers where the Indians would be given the privilege and all the rights of a white man. And we would be able to vote for president, governors, senators, and so on. And we'd be given all the privileges except of a few clauses. And them clauses are still hurting today.

The clause number one was-- it was still intact that we were-- it was against the law for [? us ?] to sell or serve liquor to an Indian. There's some clauses yet that's still hurting us. We haven't got all the rights and privileges of the white man yet. And they looked down on an Indian on account of his color, I guess, like they would a Negro.

MARY CORNELIUS: We know what actually our problem are. And only ourselves can do it. We don't need the outsiders to try to dictate to tell us how to do it because we're aware of what we need. But our ideas, they try to shift them all over, turn them all around, you see.

And to make it look like something else, we're what we-- we know exactly what we want. And how we should we go about it.

EARNEST PATENAUDE: The Bureau of Indian Affairs, one of the outside group that's in here, just to fatten their own pocket. They're not here to help the people. They want to-- it seems, to me, they want to keep the situation as it is. They don't want the tribe or the people to do anything for themselves. They always start looking at you like you're a subversive group or something, when you try to do something, like our group now.

We had more law and order investigation in our group than-- they'd figured we're communists or something, I don't know. They should spend their time taking care of their job instead of watching over the local people. We're born Americans. We're not-- we didn't run over to Russia or Germany or someplace, but seems like they spend all their money and efforts watching us all the time.

I don't know if they-- and the Bureau, they were in here. Now the federal says, tribes take over. To me, I think they're in a stumbling block, encouraging the councils to hire unqualified people and everything else on the sidelines. And it's interfering in our tribal elections and stuff. They get these type of people on the council that they could influence through jobs and everything else.

You take a guy that speaks like me, I'll never get on the council. And that's the reason why you hear-- read this in the paper and that in the paper. By the time that-- you look way in the background. It's not created by the Indian people. It's somebody instigating it on the sidelines.

I found that out. And our few rights they had here, for the hospital, for instance, there's an outsider white doctor on the sidelines encouraging them people to do what they did, paying them, bringing the beef for them, and this and that, see? He wanted this hospital closed down, for instance, and everybody would get their medicare on the outside. It's all politics. And we don't need them, people. We don't need them.

MARY CORNELIUS: Boils right back to politics. I don't care which way you turn it. And the Indian, in other words, they figure that they-- they don't want the Indian do their own thinking. Let's be realistic. Indians are getting a little smarter nowadays. And if they-- naturally, if they start doing their own thinking, there goes BIA. We don't need them, you see. And they're not about to see that happen.

LEONA PATENAUDE: Well, I think if the bureau serves its function as it's supposed to serve it, in our opinion, their role is as technical advisors, as someone providing guidance, not actually a group of dictators which we see them as. In going into other areas, for example, the superintendent will go along with the council and assist in bringing pressures to bear to get something that the tribe feels.

In this area, it's a constant. It's up to the council, and the Bureau of Indian Affairs doesn't take a part in it. And then, again, in this letting the tribes take over many of the federal programs, that's a big joke around here because they're willing to let you take over as long as it's set up to fail. If it's going to succeed, then that's something else.

The Associates for Progress, I think, have a long track of successes. And we have tried to get-- buy Indian contracts, and we have been able to get one and we had to fight, not only the council but the Bureau of Indian Affairs to get it awarded to us.

Other proposals that we've written have gone to other areas. For example, one big program that we felt we could have succeeded with went to the United Tribes Training Center, and we are very well aware of this. We wrote the program. We submitted it. United Tribes got it, and I helped implement it.

So we know it's our program, and as a matter of fact, the contract that they gave me had the same typographical errors that we had in the proposal. So there's just no question about it. But if they thought we'd have failed with the program, I'm sure we would have gotten the contract.

JOHN YDSTIE: You've worked in the BIA here, for a while. You've been superintendent for about three years now, right, going on four years. What's the purpose of the BIA on an Indian reservation?

FRANK MORAN: That the role is changing every year. Right now, we're more of a service unit, providing service and technical service to the people that we serve. And for instance, years ago, the superintendent had a lot of authority, had a lot of-- well, he was the man that made the decisions on the reservation.

Today, we're slowly breaking away from that. We feel that the Indian people themselves should be making the decisions. And we should be putting ourselves in a position to help them every way we can, to help them make the right decision. This is pretty much-- our real role, I would say, is trusteeship of the trust holdings of the Indian people.

I think that was given to the Secretary of Interior, and that has not been changed. And I think that's one of the basic reasons for the existence of the BIA on most Indian reservations, to protect this trust land holdings of the individuals.

JOHN YDSTIE: What are some of the services that you provide to people on the reservation?

FRANK MORAN: Well, like I said, the number one, I suppose, is the trust relationship. We have a realty branch that takes care of all trust tracks of individuals. And incidentally, this reservation has very few Indian allotments here. Most of our land holdings are extended from here to the West Coast.

And then we have an education, which to me, is probably our number one service on the reservation. I feel that's the most important thing here because the enrollment population, the greatest percentage of the population, which is a little better than 16,000 enrolled members here, are 25 years or under. They're in that young age group. And so education is real vital.

And then we also have a social service here that provides social service to the needy families on the reservation, those that don't have employment and need assistance. We have a pretty large number on that program. Then, of course, we have employment assistance that helps us-- which used to be the relocation, help people get employment and training and employment outside the reservation, as well as on the reservation.

Then, of course, we have our roads department that provides, and we try to provide roads. Right now, we're doing this to get this network of roads because of the bus arrangements for our kids because we have better than 1,700 that come just to the Belcourt School. And then, of course, we got a law and order that provides law and order services to the reservation.

We have probational. And we have a court system here. And they have their own tribal courts.

JOHN YDSTIE: What would you say are the greatest needs here?

MARY CORNELIUS: Communication, letting the little people know how much money comes in, how many they can help, and what it's used for. Learning is the hardest process. If you can teach the rural people, we got X amount of dollars. We can only help so many people-- this should be public information, public information at all various stages by the Bureau and by tribal government, by the hospital, by education.

LEONA PATENAUDE: I think that the tribal council should leave the doors open at least two meetings a month for general assembly, so everybody in the community who are interested, they come in and know what's going on and how far they are in progress, how they're not progressing, what other people can do to help.

And instead, when you go in, and you ask just for basic information from the tribal council members, it's nobody's business but theirs. But when they use my hand and they get appropriations for my tail-end, I want to know what it's going to be used for. I have that right.

MARY CORNELIUS: And how about the wells? Now, you haven't been able to get a well?

SPEAKER: Not yet.

MARY CORNELIUS: When we raise hell-- when I say raise hell, we start writing like 15, 20 letters, goes every direction, and we start dialing. And then they immediately come and say, didn't they tell you? You got a well. Now since-- we've been gone about 30 days, and where's your well?

SPEAKER: We haven't got one yet.

MARY CORNELIUS: So these are the con-- I mean, we shouldn't' have to do that.

LEONA PATENAUDE: She has children at home.

SPEAKER: I can't even get gravel on the road, so the bus would come after the kids. The bus won't come up that road. And when it rains, I don't let them go to school because they'd get wet before they get halfway.

MARY CORNELIUS: The paternalism of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, they've crippled us. Probably, they would have crippled me if I'd have stayed. I just became dependent because-- someplace along the way, you get to say, I just don't give a damn anymore. And that's what they do to our children. And I don't think that should happen.

JAMES HENRY: The tribal councils, they're taking on more active role in trying to provide also services to the people. And they are taking over some of the programs that they're capable of handling at this point, that the Bureau normally used to do, which I think, in a way, is probably the trend.

This seems to be one of the policies or one of the philosophies of the BIA now. I feel now, it's up to the tribes, especially those places where they have elected people that are elected by the people as their governing bodies to take a good, hard look at some of these things and try to administer and operate these programs for the good of the people on the reservation, the people they are really serving.

LEONA PATENAUDE: If the government would orientate the tribal councils to recognize that qualifications play a major part--

MARY CORNELIUS: There's too much nepotism. If you're my buddy, fine, I don't care if you're qualified or not. And if you're my relation, fine, qualified or not. But there may be three or four men sitting by that are qualified and still local people. But you're not related to me, and I have got a personal grudge against you, you're not getting the job, see.

But there's where your superintendent should step in and say, well, the qualifications is what counts here. I don't care who he is. If he's qualified, fine. If he's not qualified, you don't get the job. If he's your brother, if he's your aunt, or your uncle, out.

LEONA PATENAUDE: This is why I feel that the Bureau is not carrying out their role here in the community. They should be providing guidance and counseling. And I think the government is not ready for the Indian people to assume the responsibility of taking over because if they were, I think they would assist the qualified Indians in filling the positions that are vacant. At this time, it's all passed through the council.

EARNEST PATENAUDE: They got their nose stuck in them politics, they're not supposed to, but they are.

LEONA PATENAUDE: No, I don't think we have a competent tribal government. And it's true that they are elected by the people. But I think there are too many intimidating influences here that the people don't feel that they can vote contrary to a recommendation or even an insinuation made by the people of the Bureau of Indian Affairs because so many people are dependent upon the Bureau of Indian Affairs, especially in the area of Social Services.

So the people cannot afford to rock the boat, so they're going to go along with recommendations, and so forth. And we end up with this, as far as I'm concerned, a very incompetent government. People who are competent, I don't think, will ever get elected as long as the Bureau of Indian Affairs can even play a small role in influencing the voters. And they do play quite a big role at this time.

JOHN YDSTIE: How do you see the Bureau being phased out? What's the proper way to do it, do you think?

JAMES HENRY: Just lock-- take the key and lock the door, and let the tribe take over. And we wouldn't have that influence. Then maybe we get to elect people that could do a job.

LEONA PATENAUDE: Well, I feel that one way of phasing it out would be to allow local people to take over various positions that become vacant, having the government accept these people and not rejecting them by bouncing them to the tribal council, knowing that the council is threatened by people who are knowledgeable or educated.

I think that if anybody displays any intelligence around the tribal council, question the tribal council, or ask any simple question that the council can't answer, then the council is threatened and very defensive. And these people will never have an opportunity to get in here.

So I think that if there's a position open, and people are qualified, they should be given the job by whoever is the funding agency or whoever's in charge of that position, and not bounce it back to the tribal council. I think that there are certain areas that we need moneys that are going now to the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

For example, in the education program, the tribe is financially unable to undertake such a financial responsibility, in law and order, and any of these areas. We're talking about phasing out the Bureau of Indian Affairs and having it a tribal program. But we are dependent upon federal funding agencies for all these things.

And I think in getting people, for example, not having a superintendent of the Bureau of Indian Affairs but having an overall administrator for the programs would be much more effective than having a Bureau of Indian Affairs superintendent.

JOHN YDSTIE: From what I've heard from people around the area, tribal politics is pretty wild and woolly, a lot of competition going on. Why do you think that is?

JAMES HENRY: For me, the people in the last four years, I believe, have taken an interest in the tribal government. I don't really view it as a politics, it's really a big business is what it is. And you don't mix cheap politics with good business, but it's a good sign that a lot of people are taking interest in their tribal government and will eventually get better and-- better educated people into the tribal government.

JOHN YDSTIE: How many terms have you served now as tribal chairman?

JAMES HENRY: I've just won my third consecutive term. I won my first term as a councilman and vice-chairman in 1968, so, actually, this is my fourth term in tribal government.

JOHN YDSTIE: What do you feel you've done that's been able to keep you in office that long? What policies have made the people decide they want you to stay in office?

JAMES HENRY: I believe it's complete impartiality to all factions that haven't favored any one faction, even my own faction that has continuously supported me. Whenever jobs are available, the people that's best qualified get those jobs, whether they're on an opposing faction or whether they're on my side of the fence.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do you see the BIA being phased out of the tribal life, altogether?

JAMES HENRY: I don't want to see the BIA phased out because that is a federal agency that Congress put to administer over Indian people. With the BIA eliminated, then you have termination. There's some functions here that we have taken over-- not really taken over, but we have wanting to buy Indian contracts to do things that the Bureau is forbidden to do by federal regulation.

I don't see any benefit in this tribe taking over functions of the Bureau. Employment-wise, we wouldn't gain anything because 90-some percent of our Indian people are now employed by the Bureau.

JOHN YDSTIE: You mentioned the old Indian had a tribal government that was beautiful. Does the Indian on the reservation now have a tribal government that's beautiful?

JAMES HENRY: The tribal government, which is fairly new, has just begun to be able to establish some form of authority on the reservation, some semblance of real government. What happens when something is new is that people have to learn, in the same way that I think that the tribal government that we have now has to learn that they're in governing for the people.

And their responsibility, first of all, is to the people. And it isn't the other way around. The last couple of governing bodies that have had really any authority in being able to decide what they want and being able to govern their affairs and making a few mistakes.

They got to make mistakes. First of all, a guy that's not acquainted to having money all of a sudden spins and gets a load of money, and he spends it. For what? All kinds of different things. And he's got to learn gradually to manage his money. And I think this is one of the things that tribal government is going to have to learn, is to manage its affairs in an adequate way.

And they're going to have to learn how to manage people. It's really quite a learning process. And it's taken white governments how many thousands of years to try to be self-sufficient in management.

EARNEST PATENAUDE: The white man says, we're trying to make you equal. We're making you equal. We're giving you programs. But you look at the programs, they never reach the real Indian out in the bush. So therefore, he's down like this. The white man's up here, he's down here.

The only way is to take him and make him on the same level, make him with the same honor as the white man and the same religion-- I mean, if he wants to be Indian religion, Christian, or what have you, and you're going to see some change because there's a day coming we're going to all be one people. I mean, this I realize.

It's coming. We're going to be one. And hopefully, it's going to be Indian.

JOHN YDSTIE: The Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation, Our Home Town, one of a series of programs exploring the character of life in a small North Dakota communities, produced by Minnesota Public Radio Station, KCCM, with funds provided by the North Dakota Committee for the Humanities and Public Issues. Producers of the series are John Ydstie, Dennis Hamilton, and Bill Siemering. For a cassette copy of this program, contact KCCM, Concordia College, Moorhead, Minnesota, 56560.