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JOHN YDSTIE: What do you think are some of the advantages of living and growing up on the reservation?

FRANK MORAN: Well, if you can't make your own living, BIA is always there to give you a helping hand. That's one area. And if you get sick, you get free medical hospitalization. But otherwise, I don't know. If I was rich, I wouldn't be here.

JOHN YDSTIE: The Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation, Our Hometown, one of a series of programs exploring the values and character of life in small North Dakota communities. It's produced by Minnesota Public Radio station, KCCM, with funds provided by The North Dakota Committee For The Humanities and Public Issues.

On today's program, you'll hear about the economy, welfare, and business outlook from area residents, including Frank Moran, Superintendent of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Mary Cornelius, active in the Welfare Rights Movement, and Carol Davis. The interviewer is John Ydstie.

What are the disadvantages?

FRANK MORAN: If you want to make it so there shouldn't be any disadvantages. Because we have every opportunity in the world to better ourselves, the way I see it. If you're able to work, you could make a good living, if you have a job. That's one particular area here that hurts the people in this reservation, is that there aren't enough jobs to go around. Let's face it, we have poverty programs that don't amount to nothing really. We have tribal work experience where able-bodied people who wish to work can work for their welfare, or if they wish to stay home, they still get it. And that's the way it is.

I worked with this prior to coming here as a superintendent, and I don't know how we're going to get people or industry or anything of that nature to come in here and provide jobs. Right now we have two smaller plants, we have our jewel bearing plant at Rolla that employs several of our Indian people there. It's a good, steady income. Don't pay as well as some of the others, but it's adequate for here. The people seem to be happy there.

And we also have A-tron right here on the reservation, which employs nearly 100 people also. And this one is one that could be expanded, might be expanded, I don't know. But to me, we need more of this, because those people work and they earn, they're off our general assistance rolls.

And of course, we have a number of our people working at the state sanatorium. And some those that could find employment within a radius of, say, of 150 miles from here are trying to work and commuting. And I have no answer in how to correct this, and I don't see it improving for the simple reason we're going to have more young people coming up. That means more employment required. And if we were in a different geographical location, we might have a better chance. But we're pretty far north along the Canadian border.

SPEAKER 1: I think the people are getting-- are a little lazy too. I mean, the welfare is so easily gotten that they don't look that hard for employment. I mean, all you have to do is go up there and say you're not working, then you're on welfare, which is a long thing back that people have lived on and they don't think anything about it anymore. And it's so easily gotten here, I think that it stops the people from looking harder for work, than if they didn't get it so easily, they'd look a little harder.

SPEAKER 2: First of all, the American Indian didn't have any welfare till 1921. All the other Anglos had it from the Lisbon Law 18 something, I don't recall the date on it. But that's when the Lisbon Law was established for welfare and the Anglos brought it-- the pilgrims brought it when they landed here in Plymouth Rock and they introduced it. And the Indian people never had welfare till 1921. The Snyder Act, that's the only welfare we've ever had. And it's not equal to the state.

SPEAKER 1: Yes, but he wants to know how many families are on welfare programs here.

SPEAKER 2: Right here and they're on the reservation I would say about 900. 900.

FRANK MORAN: There are attitudes in the surrounding communities. People have certain stereotypes about those families on welfare. They say, well, they are laying around, they're lazy--

SPEAKER 1: --get out there earning a quick buck if they were putting their back to it. But you tell me how many jobs are listed for those that could get it. Like I've been trying to get a job for the last three years, I can't even get a job. And I certainly won't pick up a bedpan in the hospital and carry someone's crap around. Because I'm above that.

SPEAKER 2: OK, for instance, I have cases. And I've got, I don't know how many cases I have, but let's just take Jones, because I don't have a right to release that information. Mr Jones to me was told that he had been on welfare since 1957 and he was shiftless and he was a bootlegger. But I did the research on Mr Jones. When he was 11 years old and he was building a log house, a log fell on him and he had a very severe back injury and kidney injury.

All these years he'd been without medication. So when he got around 50, he became lame, because with this old injury without any medication. And the reason why I know he was injured in 1957 is because Dr. [? Viret, ?] an old doctor in Rolla, his father took him there one day when he couldn't walk, and it was from this spinal injury, kidney injury, and it set in big complications. There is no way that man could work, no way. So I wouldn't call him shiftless.

You can't expect a baby two months old to work. You can't expect a blind man to work. You can't expect a cripple to work. When we speak of welfare, a lot of people think welfare is the shiftless ones. For heaven's sakes, Nixon collected a welfare check. What's wrong with him? He collected his money from the same pot of stew the teachers do, the nurses do, the doctors who take Medicare. All these people collect--

SPEAKER 1: HEW laws, anyone that has gets a payroll check from HEW, any branch of that, for health, education, and welfare, they're all on welfare.

SPEAKER 2: So people don't look at them as being welfare recipients. But I think for the behalf of the American Indians, they got rich off of my ancestors land. So we're only collecting some dividend, not very much, but some dividend from all the lands that was taken from my ancestors. And that's what I think of welfare.

JOHN YDSTIE: In actuality, the welfare here is the same welfare that any person in the United States gets, right?

SPEAKER 1: No.

SPEAKER 2: No.

JOHN YDSTIE: It isn't?

SPEAKER 2: No, it certainly is not. Mr Lamont couldn't get welfare. He's a White man. He couldn't get welfare on the state. And he has a back injury.

JOHN YDSTIE: He couldn't get it-- I don't understand now.

SPEAKER 2: OK, he could not get it on the state.

MR. LAMONT: Because I'm married to an Indian. They told me if you need any help, have your wife get it from the Indians.

SPEAKER 1: That's right.

SPEAKER 3: And I can't get it.

SPEAKER 2: And she can't get it because he hasn't produced any kind of a payroll stub--

SPEAKER 1: And he hasn't worked.

SPEAKER 2: --and he hasn't been working. Yeah, so how do you produce it? Can you tell me?

JOHN YDSTIE: No, I can't.

SPEAKER 2: OK. So these are the kind of problems we have. But these are everyday problems. So we say 14th Amendment who does it apply to, it's certainly not the American Indian. Now there's a mixed couple that's married. He can't get it because he's married to a squaw, and the squaw can't get it because--

SPEAKER 1: She's not working.

[LAUGHTER]

SPEAKER 2: Does that answer your question?

CAROL DAVIS: About two weeks ago, we had a Title I committee meeting at the school. And one of the purposes was to review applications for teacher aide positions. Now these would be all paraprofessional. There were about 50 applications for three jobs. I think that can give you the best idea of the attitude there is toward work. Any time you have jobs open here, I think you'll find no fewer than 20 applications. And if they're advertising a number of positions, you can get as high as 100 to 150 applications for two, three, four, or five jobs. So people do want to work. If the jobs are here, you'd see a lot more people working.

JOHN YDSTIE: I talked to one man who said he saw the BIA funds dwindling and federal funds to the tribe dwindling. Do you see that in the future, and do you think that the reservation is going to be ready to support its population?

CAROL DAVIS: Right now we're so dependent on federal programs, I don't even like to think that federal programs would end. I'd like to say that in the future we should be ready for it. Right now we're not. I think if the federal government were to withdraw federal funds from the tribes, that they would hurt the tribes more than anything, because they've spent time building. I think of the number of years that we've had people on welfare, and now we're seeing some of these families able to support their children because they were able to get a job on a federal program.

I don't know if the White society realizes what we went through on reservations for 100 years. When we were placed on reservations, we were more or less robbed of our leadership, we were robbed of our Chiefs, our governing bodies were changed, we were put on handouts, we couldn't hunt, and we saw people just dwindle down into I guess to nothing, where they waited for nothing but that handout whenever it came.

We also were not introduced to the 8:00 to 5:00 system for years after that. I know they talk about the depression and the CC camps, and I've heard people on the reservation here that say that that was the best thing that ever happened for Indians, because it was the first chance that Indians got to work. And they went to work. And from the CC camps, a lot of people obtained skills that they were able to use later on to keep employed.

And one of the most important things I feel involved in the 8:00 to 5:00 system is not only the fact that the person does become introduced to the world of work, but say that you've got a family man who has children, and these children see their father going to work in the morning and fitting into that 8:00 to 5:00 system, there's a certain amount of pride there.

But if children see a father who has to accept welfare, who's dissatisfied and who's always around the house grouchy and crabby because there's never enough money, enough food, a mother who usually has to go into the welfare office to ask for more funds, to ask for clothing allowances, and so forth, you rob this family of their pride. The children I think are affected emotionally by this.

These children now I think we're seeing the children whose parents were the first to benefit by federal programs, we're seeing these children now coming out of high school. One of the things that surprises me and it makes me feel good is the fact that right now in college in the state, in North Dakota, we have about 400 Indian College students right from this reservation.

And I think a lot of this might reflect back on federal programs where we had parents who were able to instill pride in their children. Because 10 years ago before there was any federal programs, we had maybe 10 kids in a year from this reservation attempt college, and of that 10, four years later, there was probably one graduate.

SPEAKER 4: If the jobs are available, I think we have some of the most skilled people. Some of the teachers we have from here in our school system who are [INAUDIBLE] are some of our best teachers. They are probably a little bit more relaxed in their efforts, in their jobs. Not that they don't do a good job, but they don't work for work per se.

I don't think they're grabbers. I don't want to give the impression that it's a lazy attitude or anything like that, but I think many Americans look as a job as a means to an end, a means of getting ahead. And I don't think the people here are grasping like perhaps in the more urban areas.

JOHN YDSTIE: What do you think are some of the greatest needs for this community at the present time?

FRANK MORAN: Meaningful employment. I know we've got to bring in factories if that's at all possible. But it's pretty tough in this particular area being we're way on the outskirts of America. We're next door neighbor to Canada.

CAROL DAVIS: It's hard for us to understand why people would have these stereotypes or these hang ups about us when we see ourselves struggling day by day to survive, you might say. I know that there are a lot of people who don't feel that anything is going on on these reservations, that we're all sitting back waiting for a monthly check and thanking the great White father for sending it, and that all we do is go to powwows and rodeos and spend our welfare checks in bars and so forth.

I think that before a person lets themselves become I guess, well, what would you call it-- Anyway, before they would stereotype an Indian person, I think that they ought to spend some time on a reservation. That they ought to come in and meet us on a one to one and see what we're actually doing.

I wonder sometimes whether or not we do enough public relations work ourselves. But then again, we don't really have an opportunity to get out into those other communities to tell people what is actually going on here. And unless we can develop some lines of communication, I imagine we'll always have the people who will stereotype us.

SPEAKER 5: Well I don't know that you need to deny the fact that some people are on welfare. People are on welfare, there's no denying that fact. There's no denying the fact that you have jails. They're there and people get into them. And there's no denying the fact that people are different.

Many, many people have an attitude that they don't want to work. I had that attitude, and I still have it. I really don't care for work. I think it's just something I have to do. And when there are people out here in this community whose lifestyle is to live on welfare, to drink, to have fun, to shack up, if you want to call it that, that's the way they live.

And it's a small portion of the community that lives that way, but who can change the stereotypes that we have for Whites, you know? I've got a I've got a concept of a White man. I'm aware that he's a shrewd businessman and he's going to make his profit.

What is profit? To me, like I mentioned once before, profit is getting something for nothing. And I don't deny a man his fair deal. He should get something in return for what he gives you. But to me, one of the biggest problems in the world is profit. Why are people poor.

I think the concepts of being great and being rich and being strong and powerful are things of the past. I think the whole society is becoming aware that you don't have to be a Superman to be in government, you can be a little shit, or you might be nothing there. That doesn't make him a person. In fact, that he's able to control, that he doesn't contribute to what you feel about yourself.

You know, what the hell is $1,000 if I don't like myself. Or what's $1,000 if I have to steal it to get it. I think all of these things are changing in society. Well, hell, we realize that people in trouble in our society, the biggest trouble are people with money. Why the hell should I struggle to be a millionaire when I know that all my kids are going to have all these emotional problems, you know, and they're going to wind up like whatever.

JOHN YDSTIE: Do you think the attitude of work, toward work is changing?

SPEAKER 5: This age is I think the beginning of wisdom in many, many areas. Whereas we were taught that this is the way to do it, work hard, and save all your money, and all this jazz, and you're going to be happy. But we know you're not happy when you do it. Why do we know it? Because we can see it. We can see it ahead of our generation.

Where's the generation ahead of us know? The millionaires aren't happy. People have worked and slaved all of their life have become addicted to misery and they won't even feed themselves. They're dying, they're starving to death with thousands of dollars stashed, you know? So this generation is becoming aware.

JOHN YDSTIE: If you could design a welfare system, what would be the general guidelines?

SPEAKER 1: Well, if I was going to design it for the behalf of the American Indian, I think that every man should be able to work three and four days a week. And I'm speaking of the younger ones, I'm speaking like 18-year-olds, probably 18 to 35, unless they had a disability. And I say that for two reasons.

One reason is the father who goes out to work every day sets an image for his children, that you don't get anything for nothing. For the behalf of the American Indians, I think that if we ever got all our treaties, we wouldn't have to be thinking about welfare checks, we would be able to live off of it.

And we have a lot of men come in and take advantage of the AFDC mother who gets a check once a month and he lives off of her. I think when this man has buried children with her, he should be responsible for those children. And I don't believe in taking children away from mothers. I believe that the mother is responsible for those children. And I don't think the welfare, the BIA welfare should be the babysitting agency. And that's the way I would design it, that they should be a provision in there where they should have to be made responsible to her for their families, because it's their family.

SPEAKER 6: I would say the probably unique thing about Turtle Mountain is the aggressiveness of the people. They seem to be so much more aggressive than some of the other Indian reservations we've seen. And not necessarily playing the other reservations down by mind you, but there seem to be a lot more aggressiveness on the Turtle Mountain.

JOHN YDSTIE: You worked in planning for quite a while on reservation here, what do you see as the greatest needs for this community?

SPEAKER 6: Well, I think the bank is number one. I've always felt that the bank would solve a lot of our problems. Then the other thing is try to create jobs for people. And also trying to develop our reservation to its full potential. And that includes the land and utilizing the land and putting things in the community that would help develop our community and so forth. And I know one of the projects we fought for a long time was paving the streets for Belcourt, for instance. This would also lay a cornerstone in developing a community.

JOHN YDSTIE: There are also certain stereotypes about the reservation system, and that it is a place where the federal government hands out checks to everybody every month, and people just sit around and wait for it, and when they get it, they go and drink it up. You've lived here for five years and observed the system. How would you reply to those kinds of stereotypes?

SPEAKER 4: Well as far as the federal government giving checks, I feel that it's probably a misconception, and that's not any different than the checks that come out to people who are on welfare at any other localities, such as the inner cities, any place where there's unemployment. In areas of Black ghettos or the poor Whites in Appalachia, they receive their welfare checks. This goes back to what I mentioned to you before about a disadvantage of not having employment.

As far as drinking it up goes, spending it unwisely, I've not experienced it directly, that this is done, but I've had local people tell me that, yeah, it is done. Social workers have told us that this is done. But I don't think it's a direct relation to the fact that it's a reservation system. I think it's more directly related to the fact that there's not employment and welfare is a necessity and there may be some problems in that system. I'm not so sure that it's a reservation problem.

CAROL DAVIS: If the dollar comes on to the reservation and exchanges hands twice, we're lucky. We have no dollar rotation system on the reservation, of course, without a bank and without a real I guess what you'd call a base, an economic base, places to spend that money. I guess we're just going to have to accept that for a while. We need businesses, we need people to take a look around them at what these outside communities are doing to lure our dollar away and start doing it right here on the reservation.

I shudder when I think of how many dollars have come in here and in a form of a salary check and not even touched base here but just gone right back to a non-Indian community that might be adjacent to the reservation or sometimes they go to one of the bigger towns in the state to spend that money and it's not helping the people here.

JOHN YDSTIE: Is Belcourt an area that is ripe for economic development? Can it support a young businessman who wanted to go into business?

CAROL DAVIS: Well, we've supported I'd say three towns around us for the last 100 years. And I think that if we ever put that dollar back here on the reservation and kept it rotating here, that it might hurt the towns that are on the outside of us, but it would build us a base where we wouldn't have to sit here with people that are on welfare rolls, 700 families during the winter, and accept handouts forever. I think it's time that we start looking out for one another and for ourselves.

And I don't say that selfishly, I say that because I feel that it's money that's coming into the reservation that we should be planning to spend--

JOHN YDSTIE: That was Carol Davis, one of the residents of the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation, who considers it Our Hometown. This is one of a series of programs exploring the character of life in small North Dakota communities, produced by Minnesota Public Radio station, KCCM, with funds provided by The North Dakota Committee For The Humanities and Public Issues. Producers of the series are John Ydstie, Denis Hamilton, and Bill Zimring. You may purchase a cassette copy of this program by contacting KCCM Concordia College, Moorhead, Minnesota, 56560.