I think the thing that I want to to ask you more than anything else in that you have had as much experience as you have been traveling throughout Asia is how old were the years of American influence has changed the Dynamics of societies in that Geographic part of the world ocean Greg, but I think there's no doubt that American influence on the American involvement. There has had a very big impact course. I first went to Saigon in 1961 when they were just 1,500 Americans there and they were all advisors in civilian dress and I think most American citizens wouldn't have known where Vietnam was on the map of Asia that time and we're all aware of what happened in Vietnam in the days when John Foster Dulles was the Secretary of State for the United States and he promoted in 1954 of the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization, and that was I think the first major commitment in recent history of the United States with direct military commitments to Thailand covered Laos covered Vietnam covered of the Philippines and later on they brought in countries up in East Asia like Korea. The United States is all as in recent history had a large military establishment in that part of the world. Particularly the Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines Subic naval base in the Philippines. And then later we arrange with the Thai government to use large air bases in Thailand for the land-based aircraft carrier and all around the periphery of China. We had an increasing military buildup under you may not remember but I remember very well that went in the days of Lyndon Johnson. We were trying to rationalize our intervention in Vietnam. It was a specter of China communist China that loomed has the greatest threat in those days president. Sukarno was Indonesia trying to run an independent foreign policy May ruin, India and prince sihanouk in Cambodia. We're all trying to run for the non-aligned foreign policies. And this was something nice Ace didn't like very well later on Shekinah was overthrown later on print seeing up was overthrown in March 1970. In my own view is that American policy? I have played a part in both of those changes of government. So that increasing the US really was the dominant power in that region and we give a lot of economic assistance. Also, the pace car was active International voluntary service were active but the interesting thing now is that where the new effort at detox with the People's Republic of China and mr. Nixons visit there and we were there until that lie for 30 days just a couple of months before Mr. Nixon's visit. There seems to be a new attitude now. I'm on China and one would think this would make it possible for the smaller countries of the region to it. Adopt more independent foreign policies, but my impression again on the basis of our last trip, we just come home from about two and a half months visiting all of the Southeast Asian countries accept Malaysia is that United States is not really basically changed our policy in Asia. Mr. Nixon adopted a policy in Vietnam called Vietnamization. In other words. We wouldn't have a massive American troop presence there. But we've kept our air bases we have introduced what some people have called the electronic Battlefield a whole new series of automated a computerized weapons of war witch make it less necessary to have a lot of men on the ground and we got our ass I said, we've got our air force and we've also been in a sense of financing a lot of mercenary troops up until very recently in Laos for example, and thank goodness it now. Looks like maybe peace will come to the house but up until a year or so ago. We were financing a mountain The Archies are mountain people fighting in Laos. We were financing tie your regulars from Thailand 20,000 are still fighting there and in Vietnam were financing the armies of president to in Saigon who are still carrying on War With The Liberation Front which get some help from North Vietnam. And so actually as far as I can see American presence is still very anxious. I very evident in Asia and very anxious to hold that area open in terms of its availability for American Business Enterprise as a source of raw materials markets in Sulphur it was there evidence of real inroads being made by American influence in terms of of what we might call the Americanization of the culture and economics their values and the American way of life has been introduced. I've talked to friends in Asia and said that the Sears Roebuck catalog for all of us glitter play of material Goods the whole consumerism itself important in our way of life. And I've told some of my friends in Asia. Well, there are other things in life that are just maybe even more important than this and you have some things in your tradition that may be more important. But if you haven't had all these things are very alluring and I think that this whole business of defining development in our terms progress, you'll being defined by the number of high-rise Condominiums. The number of bituminous covered parking lots number of automobiles a number of of jars of you know of deodorant are the tubes of toothpaste that you have available in the stores at that's progress. The gross national product is progress I think is a reflex the American influence and it from my own point of view that this perhaps isn't isn't an adequate definition for the people. Malaysia what occurs to me at this point is to ask to what extent this kind of influence is interfacing with the existing cultures there or in some cases conflicting. How is it changing the basic values of the people there their worldview in one way. This is what I want to do bring out and I was wondering if Russell would go in a little bit more detail what it does when you urbanize a peasant Society what what is happening now, and we look into what's called a settlement program. The Paris agreement swear. It was have is an article 11 that says people in Vietnam should have freedom to move back to their homes. It's mostly always mean that these refugees should be returning to their Farms how we found a really good to me a very shocking use of this population for quite another purpose. And and this was Modern industrial purple. And I was wondering wrestle with you would explain because this is a complete change of Western not only is the Western values. But the Western use of cheap labor for its own purposes across Asia and this includes southeast Asia are now discussing 80% of the people roughly have been the peasantry, you know, living in their Villages of right traditional way of life in these Buddhist countries such as Thailand and Cambodia Laos the temple the WOD is very important. There's great stress on their own Traditions that they're very rich cultural background. They have had some certainly problems of literacy problems of disease and there's no doubt that certain Western emphasis on Medical Care is useful are they had almost in CLE a barter economy and all of these things and it's been a relatively tranquil kind of life. Custom in in those areas of putting they call in the spirit houses. You put it in on your land. It's it's giving recognition to what they call the P the spirit that really owns that property and you you provide food and prayers and thanks for allowing being allowed to use it and and I noticed that you if if you were seeing a farm that really belong to someone had been in the family that the little Spirit house with the tiny pieces of food and candles were there. But if you're seeing it in a refugee camp or even where they're supposed to be set there now to live you never see that Because this of course is where they're forced to live. This is not their own. The spirits have already been violated represents some sort of basic changing basic. This is you know, because it is it sucks when you were living on your own and ancestral home landed that you you've had in for Generation that you have thanked the P for allowing you to use and now you're forced out that's been bombed out that has been do foliated. You have been shunted here and there. This is no longer your land. There is no longer any any Spirit to duplicate and think this is terrible impact of the war in Vietnam in particular. Where are they religion for many Vietnamese is a blend of Buddhism and Confucianism and respect for the ancestor and animism is a very important element of that suggested in the impact of war and now this resettlement program has moved scores and scores of villagers with hundreds of thousands actually from their traditional homes, you know into Camp sure they've been resettled. We're no longer can they pay homage to the bones of their ancestors and this kind of a violation of the spirit of the Vietnamese was engaging by many Americans who simply has no idea what was happening. We are a very chilly small. I mean relatively new culture nowhere Nation Harley 200 years old and I'm poor Stamos have some grown up with this idea of these people out here being kind of backward people. They're not know by Lars their pagan people to send out our missionaries to convert them and so on and I've even had people Greg say to me. I will death that doesn't mean the same thing to the Vietnamese as it does to us. I think an unconscious kind of racism but it's a dream Sidious because what does Miss gets back to your original question? It presumes that they are backward people and it's up to us to bring them Enlighten mint and ever since 1898 when Center beverage made a very impassioned speech in Indiana Center about our destiny in the Pacific. He linked this conversion of the heath and bring them our religion with economic self-interest even 89-80 said where will be the markets for our Surplus etcetera and on my own experiences and Indochina particularly the violation of the folkways of the people in on their own Traditions has been as I mean, I just was underlining has been just terribly bad but in a country like Laos even beef Are major bombing efforts there? There was this other business. I remember a quotation from American Diplomat. He said we've got to destroy this whole traditional way of life here because it's ruining everything. You know, what they'll never make progress and the Honda riding a Honda riding generation is a a materialist generation who whom we are still be able to sell a lot of other things too was even this is a terrible quote from from an American who actually in Saigon said this you're so we just discovered in Saigon a few weeks ago and we got documentation on this time actually convinced it true that the resettlement program. So call is a settlement program in which many many refugees are being moved into areas where they can provide both of buffer against the possible inroads of The Liberation Front view alarms. Digiq highways and rail line where they'll be cheap labor the Japanese now, we're coming in there with with big plantations and they're going to be cheap labor as well as industrial labor and show you what you have is a country like Vietnam was originally mostly peasantry. Now do the War. I knew this resettlement, you're getting tremendous areas of these people being put into the urban areas may become, you know, no longer can I tell out so I also they become available as cheap labor for various Enterprises both American back as well as a Japanese back. This is happening in the Philippines as well. So there's this great focus on doing away with the traditional society and its values getting people off the land into the urban areas setting up a cash economy. And introducing in Orr kind of value system except and this is a game of the paradoxes. Most every government in the southeast Asia. The United States is Allied. What is a dictatorship? It's either a dictatorship under a military Junta or its martial law and that is a very interesting Paradox because many of us in this country have been told and we went to Vietnam to bring democracy to these people. But if you look around the world and it's not only in Asia, you know, you'll find by large are major allies in what Mr. Nixon calls the Free World. I heard in the other evening the Free World, which I think should be called a free-enterprise world if he were accurate we haven't introduced and we haven't insisted on our values of a free press of a democratic political system for that is very simple. It's much easier for American Business corporations in banking corporations and for US foreign policy and Military pilot should be implemented in a marshall or a dictatorship because the corporation has only one in fifty to deal with rather than Dynamic Democratic Society in flux day. You may remember Premier Tanaka Japan made a trip across southeast Asia and received a very rude reception especially in Jakarta. We've been in Indonesia just before his visit. It was no surprise to watch that. He was treated this way, but it would be a mistake to see this entirely as an anti-japanese phenomenon what it represents is National Spirit welling up people feeling they're being exploited andouille by foreign people coming in to get out at 2 to just take while they can and get all the minerals they can get and go home and it's also is a frustration they feel that the wealthy people of their country are getting wealthier than Richard all the new wealth of Indonesia is not being distributed to the rank-and-file of the US up to this point has avoided being a Target quite like the Japanese as far as I can see right now. Our policy is one of low profile because the Japanese goods are on the market. Their little cars are running on the street The Hondas and exploitation of their oil not so easily pinpointed. What were their we have more investment in Indonesia more investment in the Philippines by far than does Japan and when President Marcos declared martial law in September 1972 in the Philippines because he was having some difficulties the president of the American Chamber of Commerce in the Philippines sent him a cablegram expressing full confidence and appreciation for this act of Martial law which would make for economic stability Law and Order and so forth. Incidentally it also That a Tennessee in the Philippines toward possibly nationalizing resources and preventing us firms from having equal rights with Filipinos in developing. The resources of the Philippines that had been hitherto guaranteed by the Laurel Langley act in a dating from the days when the Philippines was a colony of United States that was coming to an end and one Senator meningioma know who is very outspoken and criticizing this aspect of policy. But once martial law was declared all of those things were Nolan void and the president open the door to American Investment. He puts energy Norco in jail, and he still in jail in Manila and there's no labor union organizing. There's another thing there's a big pool of unemployed people in the Philippines and today under martial law. There's no peasant organizing and no Union organizing permitted. So Filipino labor is very very cheap relative to skills the Ford Motor Company. We were told made 110% profit net on there. Operations of the Philippines last year and that's a lot more than they made on their operations in Detroit. I'm very sure of that. So if I were, you know, what chairman of the Ford Motor Company or German the Chase Manhattan bank, which is having a major meeting of all of his board of directors in the Philippines this year as the as they said because of the greater importance of ADA Philippines intake Manhattan's operation from their point of view Greg it make sense to go into a country like the Philippines today because of their businesses profit and they're not going to worry that much about martial law in or the violation of of of Arc Value system of freedom of the press and free elections ask you this how old where are the masses of people in these countries of of the kind of situation that they're entering into and what kind and how much office Mission is there to this kind of economic influence students are in the Forefront of this opposition even in Laos, which is probably the least politicized of the student bodies. We found some evidence that the students were becoming a bit concerning their case. It's being focused in part about the on the ties were there next door neighbor's new always, you know it to the Lisle people seem domineering but in Indonesia the opposition to Tanaka and I think also to to our great economic interests tend to Bubble Up from the students in the Philippines Irene and I had a series of Adventures almost like a few pages out of Graham Greene novel of arranging to meet students Catholic priests others who were in The Underground. These are all people who have been radicalized. Richer the poor getting poorer on that finding this situation of Martial law repression of civil liberties. This is intolerable. So it's it's beginning to Bubble Up evaluation that the the also their own values being being violated. This was one of the key things that the students in in that it wasn't just the Western influence in the goods in the market Japan represented to them it also you had them talking about their own simple non-materialistic way of life was being ruined and so that I noticed that when that the very soon after that that student demonstration went to NACA was there you have soeharto making a statement asking all of the of the Indonesian to go back to their values of simple living He and the Living off the fat of the land, but he's still he's and they and they are the reason that the students made this statement. He they know who's living simply and who isn't what to what extent is this kind of opposition really nationalistic or or based in in the culture and as opposed to what some people would suggest the dogmatic influence of socialist countries focus on the Philippines. I'm not I mean in part because the Philippines has always had a very special relationship with United States since Admiral Dewey in 1898. And we took over the country when the Spanish left and up until 1942. When the Japanese invaded know it was literally a colony of the United States and we didn't reduce our Democratic political system these other Traditions there. It's the only play country Christian country in that area with except there is a large Muslim population in the south of the Philippines. Now when we were there just recently we found in relation to your question that the opposition both to the president sits at the martial law regime and an invite and indirectly in a sense to the large American presence in the growing Japanese present came from a variety of sources that all appeared pretty homegrown to us. Other words you don't have to bring an agitator from him know I R P King if you're in a situation, which you have in Manila where you can go down to the whole Bay the shore. Are you there? I wear a million-and-a-half squatters live in a large area called Tom doe in people with maybe seven or eight members of a family two or three families in a shack. That's about 8 by 10 ft 1 Prada next to the other are no sewage available drinking water have to be purchased is a Muslim the most deplorable slums. I've seen anywhere in Asia, then you travel 3 miles away up to what kind of ghetto of special privilege called Forbes Park. We're behind armed guards live ly Filipino Elite in the American Elite who run the Philippines in 300 $400,000 Mansions any tourist any visitor to the Manila can go out and spend half a day and you can you can see these contrasts in this kind of inequity this kind of Injustice. You know what creates very strong feelings in their lot of homegrown socialist. I think there's been very little there's a small, as part of the Philippines, you know, which way the Chinese model. We talked to some of its members they have about 3,000 members that's about all in the Philippines and they have an army up in the hills of Luzon. But the other opposition is coming all across the spectrum is coming from workers in the countryside in the Barrio is the villages who get a deplorably low salary and almost no service has no medical care, you know, and they are out of their own situation. They become radicalized because they see the Hacienda in or the wealthy man in the big mansion and we seen those we visited the island of Negros Oriental or much of the sugar is grown. I see that wealth and then they compare their own situation. You have people in the church. We talked to some students some young women would come from professional families in Manila their fathers were lawyers doctors and they Went to University Manila and they read a very important book The Mis-Education of the Filipino by Renato Constantino who is raising the point Irene mentioned earlier about the whole American impact, you know apart trying to raise them up an hour images and this offended their own National spirit. And then that these kids went out to work in the Barrio Fino in the summer and they saw this Injustice. They saw the poverty is a very poor Catholic priest who said when he saw this gap between the rich man in his Hacienda and the sugar cane workers who are barely surviving. He said Nightcore I can now understand why communist become communist. So you have your seat. I kind of a homegrown situation where people become in effect socialist, they become opponents of the regime, but it would be a great mistake to feel that this is due to some for an agitator coming in this grows out of their recognition of their own plight, aren't you suggested that the client Dynamics you've described is taking place in the Philippines is in Some ways typical of the Dynamics in other countries throughout southeast Asia and Asia as a whole I'm wondering if we're going to see another Vietnam in the Philippines are is there enough of the kind of opposition that's necessary to create a revolution to actually manifest at Revolution anytime in the near future in the Philippines are other countries, but I suppose as long as we're talking about the Philippines we should focus there. There's one major difference I think maybe several others, but they're also similar to anyone who looks back on the history of Vietnam. Would be aware that the growth of the Communist nationalist movement there Ho Chi Minh for example and The Liberation Front in the South us as well has a long history. I went to Hanoi in 1967. One of the very first Americans to visit to North and my host took me to their History Museum and it was really an eye-opener for me to realize to exhibits there that they've been struggling for close to four thousand years to assert their own National Integrity against the Chinese for centuries, then the Mongols, you know, and then up into the current. As a fraction and the Japanese and then the Americans, you know, the whole series and an insult people Ho Chi Minh is Marathon Greg became in a section 2 Communists when he was a young man in Paris, you read an essay of Linens and he was trying to free his people from foreign rule from the French and this essay of Lenin's convinced him that the communism was the force that could do that so he became a car. Is primarily part of his National spirit? And that's one of the things that's always characterized that the Communists in Vietnam. They've they've been in the Forefront the Vanguard of the Nationalist movement. That's one thing that's given so much strength. Now you haven't had anything comprable in the Philippines in terms of you a long tradition of resistance of this kind on the other hand. I would say the thing that makes it possible to say will a Philippines be our next Vietnam is this how when the United States back the French in Indochina and then later intervene and directly we had almost no immediate material steak. They're my own analysis is it was more that we saw kind of domino situation and we want to keep that whole area open in this was seen as a pivotal country. We couldn't we shouldn't lose but today we have these tremendous military bases in the Philippines just last year believe it or not. We we spent more than 4 million u.s. Dollars and just refurbishing the Clark Air Force Base. Would you call you an admiral in this? U.s. News & World Report is one of our tooth most key strategic bases in Asia. We have them in both Japan and in the Philippines, so that's a big stake in the Philippines. Then they have two to three billion dollars of US banking and business investment there + 2 billion dollars of of loans that are owed to American banks in the Philippines. You see what I'm getting at the stake right now is much greater. Now, what about the instability? I just touched down that already it would seem with such a great steak and some of these areas that the United States could more easily dominate the course of history. Well, we have dominated it pretty much up until just the last few years before Marshall off when students were getting more politicized and it kind of movement was growing a sore throat that Rascal out now. I don't want to miss judge the American corporations that are there as I said a few minutes ago from their point of view it make sense, you know, business-wise a banker has a responsibility to his stock. Do you know if he can give them more interest on an investment in the Philippines and he can somewhere else will have to add banking sense. But what happens you get in a situation now under martial law for this inequity that I've talked about his only being aggravated as far as we could tell where you now have the Communists, you know, the idiot logical Marxist among the students and the faculty that's building up in opposition and present for your joining them. Were you have the Muslims in the south of the Philippines in a full-scale civil war and out and which recently a whole city of Holo 80,000 people was destroyed by the far as we could tell by the Filipino Army and even the American ambassador, mr. Sullivan and I talked with him in Manila admitted that that situation is not under control in the south of the Philippines and then you have the radicalization of the church both in the Protestant and Catholic church. We talked to people who were most native Filipinos and Americans were out there who were completely apolitical 5 6 7 years ago and now they have been so radical. By the turn of events at several priests and one sister have actually joined the new People's Army. They've actually join the Communist party and all their frustration. So you have convergence earn to is not only a try. You know live out Jesus teachings. They just see this inequity and they feel in a so desperate now that they they become politically left. So you have a convergence of leadership from people who are Marxist from the Muslims and from Christians who don't start from the same starting place, but they're now in common struggle and I would say that while I don't think this thing is going to explode next year or the year after that. I don't think that martial law. I don't think the American train and equip Philippine constabulary can hold this thing down this this this is like a time-bomb is ticking away. And if it begins to really break open, you know, and this Marcus garment is in great trouble. Then the big question every American should ask is what will our special forces do then what Are Air Force do then because Greg while we were in Manila while we didn't see this directly. We heard of a number of instances in one of our friends talk directly with a Corporal in the Philippine Navy who insisted that you ask worship today. We're actually shelling rebel-held positions in in Mindanao that us planes are transporting the equipment and arms to that area and that they're actually work some American wounded who are being treated on the spratly islands. This is all hearsay at the moment, but we heard enough of this, you know to really make me very very concerned. Both of us are very worried the just at the time that many Americans would like to forget about southeast Asia and we've heard enough about being that I'm just at this time and despite this low profile of the state department. We are involved and the chances of getting more deeply involved in the Philippines are very great. The Indonesia situation is somewhat like this but not as aggravated. I think that's still the same frustrations boiling up there. We have a big American Great presents are we done is big steak now in the oil and yelling all of that. So it's a kind of it's a kind of similar situation and all across that region. There's a striking similarity today. We her hat are allied with military hunters and a martial law government civil liberties completely out. The Press is completely repressed. The students were militant are in prisoner Going Underground. I know labor union organizing the rich getting richer the poor getting poorer stress on tourism stress on a solid currency, you know, they got to get all these American trained in there trying to work this out and that looks good, superficially UC for business. But underneath there is essential instability that that I feel has a potential for for an American involvement that none of us could possibly want to add that if any Filipino Is hears this and anyone who really knows the history. We must not forget that there was a national struggle which the Filipinos are very proud. And I wish they have many Heroes against the Spanish and against the Americans and so that they do have this. I just wanted to say that that we recognize this is just that is 4000 years old. I think that is all the rest mats messenger. Irina's friend made a very good point that against the Spaniards near the end of their was even when when the United States moved in you had Nash this Filipinos fighting against the American who became an occupying force. And as a matter of fact is the Filipinos today are very well aware of the first meal. I know this massive destruction of a village because of people it was in there was no chance to bring them. That happened in the Philippines that's all part of this background. And this book The Mis-Education the Filipino begins at that point and most of us are forgotten that because the average Filipino learn English went to our schools. Turn our way of life. You don't we haven't really felt like we could have stayed with the Vietnamese that there another kind of people we seen them as much closer to us. Most of them are Christians and so forth, but they do have that tradition that's very important and that's where things it feeds into this Insurrection today. Let me ask you now about you in particular Irene about the situation in in Vietnam. You expressed a concern earlier about women in Vietnam and their treatment I feel it is important that Americans as well as American women particularly are aware that in in the Saigon as part of the South Vietnam. There are anywhere from fifty thousand to 300,000 depending on this is statistics that you are following political prisoners in jail. Most of them are are not communist. They are there because of two does not want to to fulfill the the Paris agreement requires that asked for a a coalition of all the forces in South Vietnam. He is he is putting all of his opponents in jail and And from all that we can we can read about on all from all the interviews at least half of these are women and from what you hear from interviews with with released prisoners of the brutal manner in which they are treated while they are in prison is something that is almost Indescribable. Now when one realizes it that the tattoos government is almost completely financed by the American taxpayer. And at the food for peace in order to circumvent, our Congress is is being sold and the and the money is supporting and financing the prison system one begins to realize how important it is to the American public is it made fully aware of this has not been arrested but we also talked to Madame know about time. Anyone has followed that situation closely with know the name of Madame know she's been lost probably the most well-publicized political prisoner in the shower. She has two doctorates in the law from the sorbonne in Columbia. She's I've known her since the early sixties and each time. I've been in Vietnam. She's either been just out of jail or in jail. She's a past but she's a Buddhist she wants peace and that's it would literally a crime in South Vietnam today. And does she was now out of prison although her house was surrounded by secret place and we were followed when we left there and her appeal like those of others. With whom we talked is that the American citizens must see that military aid and all other aide except maybe sheer humanitarian. I'll be cut off to president to because the system is so repressive now, he's got a massive police force their informers at every level every campus has Garmin informers on it. And the people we know there when we get together with them are they can talk to us frankly. Although is Irene suggested earlier or any group over 5 meeting together is illegal in South Vietnam have to be very discreet but it's a very repressive kind of police state atmosphere and this these clinical prisons play a part of that in the United States has been asked them and we've had advisors they're carrying that on and so is he under this situation as long as he Just put the money in there. He can pretty well stay in power floors in that the military hardware for the police and the Army which we are doing it's clear that the u.s. Involvement continues today in Vietnam that we're supporting the present regime with a good deal of military and and other kinds of financial aid. I'm wondering if there was any evidence at all. The American influence was concerned with Democratic institutions as well. Well, I really don't think so. My feeling about that is again that strategically our government now feels we've got to back to as we're backing Londo land Cambodia. That's another situation is going from bad to worse and in both those countries talking with sort of neutral people people were not communist. You know, who are it? Allegedly committed against our position people feel just so hopeless and even though if I think for cosmetic purposes or public relations purposes in this country, we have a Katie urged a shake-up in the cabinet or are they go through this farce of having elections? I hope there are very few Americans laugh now who really believed that they had a free democratic election year or so ago and South Vietnam because the whole thing is so rigged no one can ready Vote or speak his mind independently, but we go through that occasionally, I think to Hoodwink American people and then I know that's just wrong. Because although some individual Americans have no one out. There are not happy about this. I think in realpolitik terms, you know, it just makes sense for the evil. As I said earlier to work with a man in a strong Manor work with a dictator cuz nobody can get in your way and we can get things done efficiently and we can't allow and toe to cannot allow a political consultation or action that that is with with the prg. the only thing that he has to work with in Vietnam is the military if he were to try to do what the Paris agreement had had agreed upon that is have a political confrontation with him struggle, which he cannot do and which he has not been able to do and which is the reason why we got involved in the first place. And this is the key to why the scene continues because the minute that he does not have the military hardware to continue this and has to do what the prg had fully expected and thought that the Paris agreement would produce a political struggle. Oh, then he is is gone because he cannot he cannot face that and he knows it and we know it depends cynicism of Vietnamese about our country and our policy we talk to more than one person there and I remind you again. These are people were neutralized in effect who said it now appears to watch the Secretary of State Kissinger and your government had only one interest in the Paris agreement and that way to get your prisoners back from North Vietnam, and I know that mr. Next me other night made this point himself. I ain't no just flipping one slightly over the over the the agreements except we got our boys home and he said now apparently you have no concern about what's happening to us in the neighborhood were one of these informants lived. He said that in the years were there was a massive American Military presence there before January 73 and we were bombing and so forth it none of the families near him lost any sons in combat, Justin. 373 he pointed out to us this house that house that has three homes right up next to his house have each lost a son and three of his own students had them killed anyone. This was his way of saying the war is hitting us more severely now than did earlier and you're putting in all the weapons to really keep this thing going and but you're all I'm concerned New York. How do you now think that peace has come your secretary of state got two Nobel Awards. Would you write ironic thing for these people you see and nnn our problem coming back to this country now is how can we help your the rank-and-file American citizens? Even the exhausted from a struggle? You have to realize that it might be wearing Amor Amor opposition now than we were earlier cuz I think we're out there not in the interest of the Vietnamese, but to protect the whole area for American interest and it would be more moral to have our boys literally out there doing the fighting then to bring them home to satisfy a public opinion Here and Now using our weapons supplying All of Me. Farm Supply in the airplane and then helping you finance some Vietnamese to kill other Vietnamese in our interest and that's literally what's happening. Now, we're told that they never America American Military Hardware slacked off to to Saigon the fighting slacked off and that there is a general agreement from everyone we talked to that the prg is a fight whenever they fight is a defensive one and that that that it is a political battle that they are interested in that if they are if they are bombed and shelled they will respond. They are getting some help from the north. But nowhere in anyways massive is they are from from a-z of Saigon is getting from us. This is very important point before we get onto what's to be done. Because right now I noticed in the American press that you find Stories. The Reader's Digest this month has a story about the other side that's violating the Paris agreement that they're building up arms in the north of South, you know, I'm in so for now again, we didn't go there and witness this but on the basis of our interviews with third-party neutral us that we think are the most objective observers when we were in Saigon. They all felt that up till this point. There is no such effort by the North in the prg to have a massive offensive military program. The disarming has been underlining they believe they can win out in political struggle and they were prepared for that. But they have been bombed by the two air force their own areas only just before we came was completely Obliterated in the old-fashioned way as we've done before 1 control to house over our Congress you see is to make us think that if we don't ship more arms and more money to him know he's going to be in a weak position Visa V his opponents and I really think we should be waking up to how we been exploding propagandize. Do you know Miss light in that direction in the past now what to do? In Saigon, they said cut the aid you have to insist or put major strings on it that too has got to live up to the Paris agreement to be going to get any more Aid that may be easier to argue that than just a cut the eighth Although our friends inside like there's no hope it stays in power the same thing in Cambodia. We talked to a longtime acquaintance of mine at former prime minister who's been desperately trying to to get that situation reconciled in the US Embassy keeps saying it's not the time. It's not the time. He knows that while I know Simpson power with all of us back in from the US give me no hope because the other side won't negotiate with him. Therefore. He says Lionel should be invited on sick leave by the US knowing that somebody else come in and bring this terribly destructive a disastrous War to an end people are just being exhausted. They're being killed senselessly in Cambodia in both cases. It's US money does keeping the thing going. So here's what I would argue. Do you like house right now where we have had a major investment of Aid and a lot of military activity. We were bombing lost heavily kind of secret war in 68 69. We didn't get anywhere. You can't destroy communism by dropping bombs on people in Asia. It just makes them matters worse and we ought to know that by now. The only way you could combat communism is to have a non communist government that was responsible. We know where there was social justice for the rank-and-file and his I tragically we did we haven't tended to support that kind of government. Therefore. We see now reconciled to permit in coming into being in Laos a coalition government with it, This will be equally represented. They now have a mixed police force in the two major cities communist and noncommunist and there's no way now turn the clock back. So the US attorneys willing to see this happen, even though the economist will no doubt pay the stronger role in the future and my statement is if the US government can reconcile itself to the existing With such a situation in Laos, we must insist that it has to happen in Cambodia and Vietnam and we'll have to happen ultimately and every day that it doesn't happen. There's that much more suffering by the people who live there and that much more of our tax money being wasted.